Urban legend or...did it happen? Sawstop question

[Bill Space]

Hi,

SS technology is no doubt a great advantage when one needs it. No debate and no need to debate this.

But if one does the math it appears that serious injury is still possible even when using a SS.

I read somewhere in the past that a couple of SS users lost or severely damaged their fingers.

I do not have a clue if this is truth or fiction. I would like to know though.

The video showing the saw stop owner pushing his finger into the blade shows him moving at almost slow motion speed as compared to the speed of an unexpected kickback.

I do not have the figures, but I remember seeing some specification regarding the speed the blade pulls away after sensing skin contact, and at that time when I compared this to the speed a finger might be moving during an unexpected event, it seemed possible that a finger could be lost on a SawStop saw.

Granted SS technology is great and MUCH better than not having it.

Just curious. Did some SS owners actually suffer serious injury or is this just an meaningless urban legend?

[Marty Tippin]

If reports of serious injury or amputation with SawStop are out there, there either aren't very many or they're awful hard to find -- I consider myself a black belt in Google Fu...

But even if there's some truth to the story, would you rather have a saw that takes part or all of one finger before the safety kicks in, or one that will take all the fingers you can feed it and never even slow down?

Reports of folks receiving nicks and minor injuries using SawStop seem pretty common -- and they're almost universally followed by grateful praise for the safety feature.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Remember - you can disable the hot-dog technology when sawing damp wood, etc.

You cannot invent a safety feature that a committed moron cannot defeat.

[Art Mann]

The blade brake feature is fast enough so that you can quickly slam a hot dog into the blade and it still won't make a very deep cut. I saw a demo of that once and it was quite impressive. The thing is if you always use correct safety procedures, you aren't very likely to get cut anyway. I am 40 years of living proof. The big risk for me and the one I have experienced on several occasions to one degree or another is kickback. The Sawstop brake offers no protection whatsoever against kickback. A riving knife and good sawing technique is the best defense against that and most all modern saws have a riving knife - or at least a splitter.

As for the original question, nobody has ever designed an electronic safety mechanism that will work 100% of the time. You would not believe the efforts an automotive manufacturer exerts to insure that the airbag controller deploys at the right time and only the right time. Yet, I am aware of several investigations of airbag failures.

[Wade Lippman]

SS does not deny there have been tragedies. I know someone who tripped and slammed his hand into his TS blade; the SS couldn't possibly stop quickly enough to save that. But the hotdog tests I have seen were at speeds comparable to running your hand in while sawing, and that is all you can ask for.

[Kevin Womer]

I have no idea about any "urban legend" nor have I heard of any in regards to your post. I can say I have not had a brake activation while using the safety feature, nor any injuries when not using it to cut pressure treated wood to make a couple of Adirondack chairs. I have seen the video of the owner, he does put his finger in very carefully at a slow rate. I have also watched a video where (Stumpy Nubs, Matts Basement WS?/maybe someone else can recall, I cannot) does activate the brake by slapping a hot dog or sausage down to simulate a more realistic accident. The results were similar to all of the other simulated accidents with hot dogs, minor scratches were the result.

[William C Rogers]

Well, it recently posted a SawStop save where he showed a minor cut to his thumb. I am sure you will get more than just a nick, but I wouldn't think you would need an ER visit. I thought somewhere I read there were two incidents of severe damage when I bought mind. But I don't remember any specifics and not sure it was true.

[scott vroom]

Sawstop has acknowledged at least 2 amputations with their saw vs thousands of fingers saved. What's the OP's point? The technology has obvious safety advantages.

[glenn bradley]

Remember - you can disable the hot-dog technology when sawing damp wood, etc.

You cannot invent a safety feature that a committed moron cannot defeat.

I may not be committed (but perhaps should be) and I agree that the best planning will never prevent a true goofball from fulfilling his destiny :D. I use this feature (the disabling of the safety mechanism) any time I am making a suspect cut or operation for the first time. A new jig that moves metal close to the blade during the feed operation for example.

When you override the safety feature, there is an indication showing if the safety would have fired or not. This let's me perform any suspect maneuvers without firing the safety thus allowing me to correct or go ahead with the operation going forward. Damp or treated materials would fall under this heading for me.

[Bill Space]

Sawstop has acknowledged at least 2 amputations with their saw vs thousands of fingers saved. What's the OP's point? The technology has obvious safety advantages.

The OP's point ( that is me) is simply wondering whether what he saw reported was truth or fiction.

Not too too difficult to figure out from the original post I would hope, but just to clarify, nothing more than that...

If there was more to this it might be wondering if.... But there isn't an if, just a simple question.

[John Sanford]

SS does not deny there have been tragedies. I know someone who tripped and slammed his hand into his TS blade; the SS couldn't possibly stop quickly enough to save that.
Heck, tripping and slamming your hand into a STATIONARY table saw blade can do a number on your hand, especially since you're moving into the teeth.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I know someone who tripped and slammed his hand into his TS blade; the SS couldn't possibly stop quickly enough to save that.

Wade, just to clarify, did this happen on a sawstop? If so, what was the extent of his injury?

[Kent A Bathurst]

I may not be committed (but perhaps should be)...........

We will take that under advisement, Glenn, and get back to you. You do have a legitimate point.

[Jeffrey Martel]

There's a youtube video of a review where they whip a Kielbasa into the blade. Cut was roughly 1/8" deep if I remember right. Going to do some damage, but not an amputation. I'll see if I can find the video when I get home.

[John C Bush]

I have had three triggers with my SS: 1st was due to wet wood --stock cedar from the lumberyard that had been stacked in my heated shop for a number of weeks and seemed dry to the touch. 2nd time a friend was using my shop and he hit a label staple in stock lumber from the lumberyard. 3rd trigger is the demonstrative one. I was using my Incra miter sled, reset the miter to 45 deg and forgot to check the extension on the miter bar toward the blade. As I made the cut, I heard the "bang" from the brake firing and the blade disappeared below the table. OOOPPPSSS! After I started breathing again--I looked at the miter bar and there was no mark on the anodized aluminum extrusion. I was making a slow cut but still would have expected to see a contact mark from the blade. After removing the blade and newly annealed brake cartridge, I saw only 4 teeth embedded in the brakes' Al block. Didn't bother calculating the blade tip speed and rate of deceleration but it sure stopped in a high rate of hurry! I haven't had any anatomical contacts with the blade and I still approach TS use with extreme respect in spite of it being "safe". I think the riving knife has provided as much, if not more, sense of security for me. JCB

[Mike Heidrick]

I had a thumb save December 23. Cant even see the knick today. RK was on but not my overblade guard. That overblade guard has been one ever since.

Wood magazine posted videos of slamming hotdogs as fast as they could from the top and onto full dado stacks - not the simple slide the dog in tests. Could not get more than a nick. They one deepish knick I saw the get was when they hit the RK while slamming the dog down from the top.

Glad I own one. 5hp ics from 2006 and this was the original brake and the first brake fire I have had.

[Bob Falk]

Perhaps a SS can't stop every possible table saw injury, but as a SS owner (and a user of table saws for nearly 50 years), I am grateful for any improvement in safety.

[Phil Thien]

In the case of the amputations while using a SS, was the saw's safety feature disabled? Does anyone know?

It had to have been, right? If you can fling hotdogs into the blade and only see a nick, then it would seem rather improbable that we'd be able to push our hands into the blade any faster?

[Marty Tippin]

Claims of amputations remain just that - claims - at this point, nobody has supplied any supporting evidence.

Be careful about perpetuating rumors and "I heard from this guy" type of stuff... I can't get away from that in my email inbox, but sure hope we can steer clear of it here at SMC...

[James Nugnes]

Not saying this is the case but what the OP is describing sounds so much like the video on youtube where the guy is trying to prove how hard it is to get your hand out of the way of a TS blade no matter how much you might think you can move quickly enough. The slow mo showed just how close he was to losing his fingers as the block of wood kicked out all the way across the room. Again not saying this is definitely what is happening here. But I am just wondering if the OP saw that video thinking it was a Sawstop in the video. Sawstop is prominently mentioned in that video and I even think the guy doing it goes on to show how a Sawstop would have prevented injury demonstrating how the Sawstop works whereas in his case with the TS he was using the only thing that saved his fingers was pure dumb luck, by his own admission.

If the OP has not seen that video, I would encourage him to take a look at that. Maybe that is the video in question with some folks thinking the guy was using a Sawstop when he just about lost his fingers if not half his hand.

[Jeffrey Martel]

Here's the video.

http://youtu.be/rnlTGndRi38?t=3m55s

[Dave Bonde]

Well I had an accident on my sawstop just a week ago. I am not 100% sure what happened but will explain the best I can since you asked about accidents on the sawstop. I have the 1.75 hp cabinet saw. I say this because it has a different blade guard than the 3 hp. I was making a rip cut on a piece of hard maple with the blade guard in place. The waste piece was about 1.5” wide and 8” long after the cut part of the waste was under the guard. Rather than turn the saw off and remove the scrap I went to move the material with my hand. Here is the blurry part – I am sure I didn’t touch the blade, my fingures were never under the guard – heard a loud BANG!! then felt intense pain in my figure, looked at my hand and the tip of my figure was ripped open and blood was pouring out and the impact was enough to also brake my figure. Now I am blaming myself and not the sawstop but the best I can come up with is the saw safety system triggered and the saw blade retracting into the saw caused the material to kickback into my figure. The crazy part is there was not damage or indication of kickback on the scrap and it was still under the guard, but it appear to be blunt force trauma.

[Kevin Womer]

Here's the video.

http://youtu.be/rnlTGndRi38?t=3m55s


Thanks Jeffrey, that was the video I was speaking of in my earlier post!

[Howard Acheson]

One of the tests performed involved attaching a hot dog to the end of a dowel or something similar. The dowel was swung into a rotating saw blade. The safety device activated and the hot dog sustained a shallow "wound" that a doctor estimated would not even require stitches.

You might want to contact Saw Stop. I believe they have write-ups documenting tests and actual 'saves" that they can send you. They are also good folks to talk to and will be happy to discuss any issues you have.

[David Hawxhurst]

The thing is if you always use correct safety procedures, you aren't very likely to get cut anyway.

If truly followed this would eliminate the need for saw stop.

[Mike Heidrick]

Dave send in your brake , SS will tell you for sure what triggered it.

[Bill Space]

Claims of amputations remain just that - claims - at this point, nobody has supplied any supporting evidence.

Be careful about perpetuating rumors and "I heard from this guy" type of stuff... I can't get away from that in my email inbox, but sure hope we can steer clear of it here at SMC...

This sums up the thinking that led to my initial post.

From what has been presented in this thread it sure looks like "fiction" is the likely answer to the question.

[Phil Thien]

This sums up the thinking that led to my initial post.

From what has been presented in this thread it sure looks like "fiction" is the likely answer to the question.

What? Scott Vroom (above) indicates that SS acknowledges two amputations with a SS.

Why are we dismissing that?

My question is, did those amputations happen because the technology was intentionally deactivated by the user, or because of a defect?

[scott vroom]

What? Scott Vroom (above) indicates that SS acknowledges two amputations with a SS.

Why are we dismissing that?

My question is, did those amputations happen because the technology was intentionally deactivated by the user, or because of a defect?


I've read 2 articles in which Sawstop reportedly acknowledged 2 amputations. My point is that whether or not this is true is irrelevant since no one in their right mind would deny that Sawstop technology has prevented thousands of potential amputations.

Bill Space, are you considering buying a Sawstop?

[Peter Aeschliman]

Can't we be curious Scott? I own a SS and love it. I would just like to know more about those two cases, purely out of curiosity.

Do you remember where you read about those cases or happen to have any links to the articles?

[Marty Tippin]

I've read 2 articles in which Sawstop reportedly acknowledged 2 amputations.

Can you a source for the articles you're referencing? I'm interested to read the full story.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Can you a source for the articles you're referencing? I'm interested to read the full story.

I am also concerned how the brake could have failed. I have the early run of ICS saws, and I do know they "upgraded" the cartridge brains. Mine would be old tech...... Do I need to buy a new cartridge?

Just to jump on the slamming a hot dog onto a moving SS blade. Bet if the saw (any saw) was off, and you slammed a hot dog, keilbasa or salami at the non moving blade, it will cut it in half. Just sayin, the tech works and I'm glad I have it.

[Chris Padilla]

Heck, tripping and slamming your hand into a STATIONARY table saw blade can do a number on your hand, especially since you're moving into the teeth.

Funny you mention this. I've owned my Grizzly 1023Z since 2000 and about 3 weeks ago, somehow I manage to run a finger into my crosscut blade (read: 80 teeth!!) in the midst of swapping out the rip blade (the rip blade wouldn't have been as damaging!!) and gashed it up pretty darn good. That has been the worst accident on my table saw to date. I'm always so careful changing blades but somehow, my finger, unbeknownst to me, decided to have a closer look at that blade. sigh :rolleyes:

[Bill Space]

I think in the past I probably read the same articles Scott is referring to. It was around the time when California was considering mandating SS technology for all table saws. I do not think those articles gave much (if any)detail about what happened. I could be wrong though.

In my opinion opinion Scott's logic is sound. SS technology likely has saved many fingers. From what has been stated by many in this thread it seems very likely that a properly operating SS system will offer great protection to the user.

If there were instances where a user suffered serious injury it would be nice to know the details. Was the system turned off when the event occurred? Did the system fail to operate when it should have? And so on...

If I were to venture a guess, at this point in time, my money would go with the side that believes a properly working SS would prevent serious injury when called upon to do so.

Am I considering buying one? No, I just upgraded to a Grizzly G1023RLWX. If I had unlimited funds I might consider a SS but in retirement that isn't going to happen. Hope a future mistake does not make me regret this decision!

Bill

[Phil Thien]

In my opinion opinion Scott's logic is sound. SS technology likely has saved many fingers. From what has been stated by many in this thread it seems very likely that a properly operating SS system will offer great protection to the user.


Not questioning the value of the safety feature.

I've been considering getting a jobsite version. This would be my sole table saw for the shop.

And my concern is whether it is possible to improperly adjust the brake or something. I figured I could learn from the misfortune of others and avoid whatever mistake they had made.

[Larry Frank]

If the cartridge is not installed properly, the Sawstop will not run. It checks itself and the gap between cartridge and blade.

[Jim Dwight]

To expect 100% reliability from any device with mechanical and electrical features is likely asking too much. Whether or not a SS has ever failed to protect an owner will not change that. What is also documented true is that SSs have prevented injuries - and gone off when they didn't need to.

One of the things I like about my track saw is it allows me to use my table saw less. I am not afraid of it but I respect the fact that it is more dangerous than the track saw.

[Dan Hintz]

To expect 100% reliability from any device with mechanical and electrical features is likely asking too much. Whether or not a SS has ever failed to protect an owner will not change that. What is also documented true is that SSs have prevented injuries - and gone off when they didn't need to.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but... a number of the SawStop patents were granted in 2000. Since there's a 20 year lifespan on utility patents, I think we'll see a number of SawStop-like copies hit the market in about 5 years time. And likely at a significant discount to what's currently available.

[glenn bradley]

Dave send in your brake , SS will tell you for sure what triggered it.

Agree. You may as well find out for sure.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I did an extremely informal search of this huge database we all post too. I noticed two main categories of saw injury causes, fingers in blades and kickback. There appeared to be more kickback then blade injuries. I was interested in first person accounts only to avoid multiple reporting of the same accident, and there were very few I could find in the ten minutes that I spent. I did notice what seemed like lots of sawstop triggering for reasons other than finger contact as well.

Point is, someone who really wanted to devote the time could datamine Sawmill Creek and get some interesting data relevant to all these Sawstop threads. I suspect the actual number of accidents would be much lower than expected.

[Jim German]

Not to sidetrack the thread, but... a number of the SawStop patents were granted in 2000. Since there's a 20 year lifespan on utility patents, I think we'll see a number of SawStop-like copies hit the market in about 5 years time. And likely at a significant discount to what's currently available.
I wouldn't count on it. With the history of the the Sawstop company and Stephen Gess, I'd guess that they will have some newer patents or some other way to protect it from being copied, even when the original patents expire.

I really like the concept, and the execution of the saw, but I hate the company and its founder.

As for the main topic, no saftey feature is going to work 100% of the time, and with the number of Sawstops out there it shouldn't be surprising that there have been a few injuries. It doesn't diminish the fact that the Sawstops have saved countless of fingers.

[Dan Hintz]

I was interested in first person accounts... and there were very few I could find in the ten minutes that I spent.

Perhaps because it's more difficult to type without fingers? ;)