Brian Burns sharpening

[David Ragan]

I know- anothrr sharpening queston
anybody have this system?
i can see two advantages-one is your jig doesnt ride over your media and if youre off the bevel a little u just addd or subtract a shim
i had his spiral bound book on double bevel sharpening yrs ago-cant find it now
Found him thru you tube video
i have bday coming-you all think his system could make a monumental diffo in my shop time-reinvigorate my waning enthusiasm for sharpening?

http://youtu.be/WO_M95qDdAQ

[Jim Koepke]

i can see two advantages-one is your jig doesnt ride over your media and if youre off the bevel a little u just addd or subtract a shim

It seems like there would be a lot of shimming to contend with in order to accommodate different stone thicknesses.

Though my water stone have experienced the "divot dive" of a blade. That is why my gouges get sharpened on oil stones.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

I'm not enthusiastic about sharpening but I dislike working with dull tools. My cobbled together system is based my desire to make sharpening fast and easy with minimal maintenance. Also, I'm frugal, so I didn't want to spend any more than necessary.

First order of business was diamond stones. I had a red/green DMT duo. I think it's like 800/1200. I added a XX-fine (5k) and a coarse diamond stone. Diamond stones are fairly inexpensive and last a long time with no maintenance. I use a spritz of water but they can be used dry. The 5k diamond is not fine enough for my last step. Initially I use a home made strop (al la Paul Sellers) but I using a flat bevel/micro-bevel, I was worried dubbing the edge. So I bought a Shapton pro 15k. I keep it flat with the coarse stone.

Depending on the circumstance, I start with the 1200, the 5k or sometimes go directly to the 15k for a touch up. For a chisel, 1200 -> 5k -> 15k -> back to work takes 30-45 seconds. a touch-up on the 15k is no more than 10 seconds and it's only 3 feet from my work bench. A plane iron takes a 3-4 minutes but most of that is taking it apart and getting the iron reset.

I do all my chisels freehand. I re-sharpen plane irons free hand, but I use an eclipse style guide every so often because it helps me get the camber even and consistent. I'll likely stop using the guide all together soon. Once you get a feel for freehand sharpening, it's an automatic process and darned easy to get right. It just takes a little practice.

Use whatever system works for you. I found simple low maintenance stones and freehand honing to be the easiest and best solution for me.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I like that his guide lets you use the whole stone, but I do not like that the stones must be all at the same level. If going from a Chosera to a Shapton Glass your geometry changes.

Obviously it works, and appears well made. I opted for other designs personally.

[Jim Matthews]

It seems economical, if the stones last as long as he claims.
I note the neat dispensing of water for the stones.

If you're looking for something quick, at least consider
the potential of Arkansas 'oil' stones.

Less potential for rust on steel, that way.

[Winton Applegate]

You again . . .:). . . with the sharpening no less :)
Okaaaay . . . I got a pot of coffee and an apple. I will have you know you are taking me away from making pancakes.
Some body says "but it is two in the after noon !" Yah ? ? ?
So ? ? ?
See the Geek book I mention later on. We don't generally subscribe to "normal" hours. Unless led on a leash.

You mentioned you don’t have to have the jig riding on the stone. That has never been a negative issue for me. I turn the stone to use the half or third that I didn’t use in the last sharpening. Or even on the same blade depending on the stone and the degree of black swarf building up in the pores. A cambered blade way less than a finish blade that is a straight across edge with the corners relieved.

First off let me say I would have a great time hanging out with him and would learn more than I could possibly imagine.
Secondly the sputum that is about to emerge from me is splitting hairs
but hey . . . it is what I do (play on words there)
Some people make furniture for a living . . . I split hairs.
Well ACTUALLY to be more exact I shave curls off of single hairs. That takes a little more attention to detail but still
not the most publicity magnet activity I will admit.

As far as the sharpening method . . .
I was all set to say Nah Dude, Nah but watched the vid just to be sure I wasn’t missing a revelation
And then I saw he is studying edges for reversing grain hard to plane woods using a Bevel Up
and
the Varitas block plane. He really likes that plane.
One of my absolute faves . . . we are bros so far ! ! ! ! High five and bum bumps Dude ! ! ! !
I was enthralled and stamping my foot like a boy scout at his first _________ well to keep things clean I will let your imagination fill in that blank.

He is recommending a diamond plate for the coarse stone.
Right there I think we can safely say we have left the realm of “World Class Edges” ; his words not mine.
Again you can cut wood and get good edges with his method. Not sure it is any faster in the end.

so

I like some of the concepts/application :
the finish stone being a set distance bellow the coarser stone. The stones may wear or be flattened to a different degree though and then that all goes to s____.

His jig is a great way to do a back bevel on a bevel down blade (if you ever needed to do that and more and more (with proper chip breaker setting) I am thinking you won’t ever have to use a back bevel.

A reservation I had that he took into account, that is a good thing, is that he tied the stone holder to the surface he is putting the shims on so there is less teetering between the stones and the shims. I would like to see even more beef there so the area under the shims cannot flex if the surface it is setting on has a bump (glue drips stuck on it or wood chips floating around) or even an un flat kitchen counter (and especially the “speed bump” edge on my counters that keeps spills from going off onto the floor) That would make the surface the roller roles on up and down hill while the stone holder is at a different plane.

Down side or errors :
Low angle block plane blades are harder to sharpen than 20° block plane blades.
I hadn’t noticed. Not with the Varitas guide.
I wonder what it is about his system that is bringing that into focus ?
Any thoughts guys ?

going back and forth on a softish finish stone is just plane a mistake, even with a pre formed secondary bevel created by pulling back only. Period. Don’t go back and forth. That gouges the stone at least to a small degree and the particles worn away from the stone from that abuse is colliding with the edge on the forward stroke. Pull back only until the edge is sharp.

The jig is very versatile for the range of chisels and blades but does not lend its self to cambering or to sharpening cambered blades.
Nearly every plane blade I use has at least some slight camber. He goes there with more paraphernalia and steps. Going from the flat COARSE stone to the carved out back side of the FINSIH stone is going to tend to flatten the curved out stone and what about highly cambered jack blades verses lightly cambered finish blades ?

Control and select ability is lost here. The Varitas cambered roller allows great control with zero additional set up
Oh my gosh just saved some time there.

I keep my finish stone two sided and so NEVER would consider gluing it to any thing for that reason.
The flat side I keep very flat for finish blades only even though I am still using the cambered roller at that point I DO NOT want any curving in the stones especially front to back.

[bear with me there and keep that in mind while you read the next paragraph. I am not confusing the two curves in the dip in the stone.]

That would slightly round the edge bevel and cut back on how long I can plane between sharpening.
(Wasting time sharpening sooner than later.)
Effectively pre wearing the edge. That is OK for heavy cuts but not for finish passes.
The second side of my stone I let go a little further out of flat; which is more front to back scooping than side to side hollowing as his is. Though I suppose there is some side to side like his I would not find that desirable because when the stone gets out of hand front to back I would have to flatten a lot of the stone to get it straightened out basically. So the side of my stones that are not super flat never are allowed to go more than say ten large A2 course cambered plane blades before flattening it.

pumping water on and wiping the stone is not nearly as good for keeping the stone pores open as rinsing under a tap. I am not a fan of having paper towel fibers all in my stone pores.

The working surface is way too high. I suppose for power grinding and then a quick slap dash on the stones it is ok but if you need to remove serious wear or dare I say a ding from the end of a wide blade you are going to want something low enough to be able to get your weight into the work. My kitchen counters are too high that I sharpen on but are far lower than his set up. When I really need to go to it I just get down on the floor like Toshio Odate shows in his books and articles. Or I go to the power grinder.

Keep in mind if you move your bench or your surface that you sharpen on the angles may/will go all to heck using that dangle protractor.
The only way to use it consistently is to check and shim your work surface before starting, assuming you have moved the bench or gone to another table to work. That is not saving time there.

A big point I would like to make ! He goes back and forth dozens of times on the fine stone. He says going from the coarse stone to the finest with no stones in between saves time.
Through David W. I have come to appreciate the fact of that procedure.
HOWEVER I only go about six to ten draw back only strokes to get a fully sharp edge (other than the odd pass on the back for the wire edge). If you count his forward strokes as a pass along with his backward pass . . .
well
when I am in my “I don’t care about speed I want to enjoy my sharpening” frame of mind and I am futzing out (that is like Geeking out but even more despicable and intolerable) . . .
Commercial break :
Geeks and their day dreaming and 36 hour with out a break coding sessions made the internet and what we are futzing at right now POSSIBLE . . . read this new book . . . just came out . . . good stuff ! (http://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Hackers-Geniuses-Created-Revolution-ebook/dp/B00JGAS65Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1424806435&sr=1-1&keywords=the+innovators)

. . . so when I am in major futz sharpening mode and using, oh my gosh, three four or five stones I only take about six stokes on each one ONE WAY STROKES.
Add that up. What do you get ? 6 x 5 =
well . . . ahhhhh what ever that comes to . . .
anyway it is far less than the dozens of strokes he is taking on the fine stone by it’s self
let alone the coarse stone and I am including my coarse stone in my count.
Shim to get the secondary micro bevel ?
Yah, I do that, I turn the little clicker on the side of the Varitas guide one notch.

With the cambered roller which is the only roller I ever use I can cut and polish cambers AND sharpen many/most chisels.
Chisels are easy to sharpen free hand and with a strop, leather strop for some, so no big deal.

Big bulge on the back of the chisel :
Japanese chisel makers have found a way to eliminate that. Look at the back of one of them.

So we are swapping out all these shims. Ever see a wood shop that doesn’t have wood chips on stuff including the sleeves and apron of the harried "got to get it done to save time " wood worker ?
So these shims all have very small wood chips and dust on them.
Stack them up.
You get a significant error in repeatability. He even demonstrated that him self in the “Oh that’s not what I expected to see” comments in his narrative.

I bet I could use my Varitas blind folded and never feel the edge for a bur by going through my normal six strokes per stone and one click for the last stone or two and would get an edge better than he could get on his best day.

Reality check : my edge would only be ever so sightly better.
Worth it in my view since it is easier to achieve and I need less "tooling" to get it.

Splitting hairs remember ?

With the A2 blades I would have a super fine wire edge (more like almost transparent foil ) and I could palm strop that if I had to. I'm blind folded remember.
I prefer to remove it with partial strokes one each back and forth back to bevel with the Varitas jig in place (no reason to change the jig as he does with his) until the final micro fragments of foil comes off on the stone.
This is so small you need magnification to see it and you can not feel it it is so flexible and thin.

His back bevel FOR THE CHISEL is better than using the ruler technique not that any one would on a chisel. It is impressive for what it is. Better to relive the backs of the chisels as the Japanese do. Then the back is flat not back beveled.
His back bevel for the BEVEL DOWN PLANE is a mistake. Note that the bevel is not the same taper all the way across but tapers

When put in the plane, on the square to the sole bed, the edge will be out of square and require time spent trying to correct for that rather than put the blade in and go with almost no fine tuning especially with the side screws in that particular plane.
No back bevel, no ruler, no need.

So now.
There.
That is what I think.

PS: I'm hungry . . . I think I will make some pancakes.

[David Ragan]

It seems like there would be a lot of shimming to contend with in order to accommodate different stone thicknesses.

Though my water stone have experienced the "divot dive" of a blade. That is why my gouges get sharpened on oil stones.

jtk
Excellent points Jim
it had not occurred to me that oil stones r naturally harder

[David Ragan]

Thank you The Winton, et al for enlightening me👍😀
it had never occurred to me to not scrub across the stone w paper towel, lest fibers wiggle into the pores like nesting pests. One should dob/blot/swab the moisture away. For me to run upstairs to a sink (running tap), etc is asking way too much. Maybe a swarf-clearing swish/swim in swater bucket instead of swipe/swash

it now seems obvious that one major drawback is , as Malcom and Jim point out all stone must be at same level- and yes there is a lot of errant debris in the shop

thAnks for encouragement about freehand sharpening Dan. " i will take that under advisement😉"

[Winton Applegate]

one should dob/blot/swab the moisture away.
No
nnnnnnnoooooo
one should spill, preferably pour and in my case spray, coating the counters in water like a happy little seal . . .
and then
sharpen
or put the stone back in storage.
No dobbing, swabbing or licking the stones no matter the temtation.
I see people dipping up old grunge water and pouring it on or using a swab into that water and I cringe.

Best to turn the stone up on end and rinse it under the tap than laddle more grung up on to it.
I supose the mop used to transport the grunge water up onto it nullifies the junk in the old water but I can' for the life of me imagine how.

Or maybe I am over reacting.
at some point it becomes like using a rag with a bunch of various grits imbeded in it to do your sharpening with.

[Winton Applegate]

Dabbing ?
oh you mean to scrub the dark areas off the stone that don't come off under the flow of water alone.
That is where the Nagura stone is used like an eraser then more flowing water.

[Winton Applegate]

For me to run upstairs to a sink (running tap), etc is asking way too much.
No you don't understand. :eek:
This is SHARPENING :mad:
We are talking about. Un like sawing or chiseling or glueing this is serious ! This is Important. :)
A true devote of The Sharpening Way should be prepared to not only travel to the ends of the Earth and the mountain top but to the kitchen sink if needs be to achieve true enlightenment . . . er . . . ah . . . I mean . . . sharpness . . . true . . . sharpness.
Shirley . . . I mean . . .
David, THAT IS NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK !
If you want to leave the confines of your dullness and gain the sharper NESS.

[David Ragan]

Dang......
im looking for "an easier softer way"
being a chemist at heart, and ocd hair splitter----but you would tell a man who just had knee surgery, limping around, ice pack bound to mu knee, constantly taking advil, even our 17 year old cat feels bad for me
Not to worry- i spray water everywhere- after flattening i lean them vertical and spray all the gunk off ( ****no**** papertowels ever touch the stone). They r used to blot up water/swarf/etc flooding the sharpening area
no sink required👍😀

[Winton Applegate]

( ****no**** papertowels ever touch the stone)
Well
OK then
I guess
But the brother hood will be watching you through our "third eye".

Just shows the perfection of The Sharpening Way.
Running stairs is your knee therapy.
Pain is your friend.

[oops forgot about your knee and the stairs. Sorry.]

[David Ragan]

No you don't understand. :eek:
This is SHARPENING :mad:
We are talking about. Un like sawing or chiseling or glueing this is serious ! This is Important. :)
A true devote of The Sharpening Way should be prepared to not only travel to the ends of the Earth and the mountain top but to the kitchen sink if needs be to achieve true enlightenment . . . er . . . ah . . . I mean . . . sharpness . . . true . . . sharpness.
Shirley . . . I mean . . .
David, THAT IS NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK !
If you want to leave the confines of your dullness and gain the sharper NESS.

How you know my mother in laws name ( the one who wants me to sound proof bsmt shop)
i thought you on MY side in all this. Here i am doing the best i can, the life of grasshopper, conspicuous humility-then you bring up Shirley
Well, she did research out that my forefathers fought in the Revolutionary War (Colonials). I know this is way off topic but aftr 9-11 i had the lingering doubt about my lineage- that is a whole nother meeting

[ian maybury]

:) I'm not even a colonial..

More seriously. The jig has an advantage in terms of it's ability to accept a wide range of blade types.

As the guys (and for the sure the system can be made to work) I'm a little cautious though:

(1) Shimming as above becomes an issue when you need to hit a precise dimension - especially one that changes imperceptibly with the wear of the stones.
(2) This means it's likely to be awkward to set up for back flattening as he demonstrated - it's very likely to lead to forming a shallow back bevel/rounding over.
(3) The tongue on the box that accepts the shims looks likely to be fairly flexible - meaning that if the whole affair is not placed on a truly flat surface it's likely to deflect and lead to inconsistent shim heights.
(4) The jig doesn't seem to have any means by which to align the blade square to the axis of the rollers. The final bevel on the chisel demoed is far from far from straight/parallel.
(5) The jig is probably lanky enough to be fairly springy/less than highly rigid.
(6) Somehow even with the very short soak on Shaptons and a spritz here and there i end up with a lot more water around the place than I'd like to see a ply box left to paddle in...

The move from the diamond to the final polishing stone may well be just fine (lots suggest going 1,000 - 12,000 grit on waterstones for speed) but i haven't done enough to be sure that a mid range stone doesn't help by honing out deeper scratches...

[david charlesworth]

The Burns pamphlet is very interesting.

He is one of the few people who talks about sensible cutting angles (effective pitches) for Exotic timbers.

I feel that chisel backs can be done better, but his plane information is excellent.

best wishes,
David

[David Ragan]

So, to sum it up

-there are significantly more variables in the system above.

-your jig riding on the stone is not a big deal

Thanks David for your input. My experience has been that folks who write the books are more than happy to talk with folks who contact them. It continues to surprise me that such people are accessible.

BTW I have 3 of your books. Great style-I tend to do better with a lot of pictures and illustrations. Just pulled them, will look over them this evening and see what else I can glean, as it has been some time since I last consulted them.

[ian maybury]

Hi David(s). TBH i think it's a lot to do with mindset and situation. As in there's many that adopt the view that if it's sharp that a marginal lack of precision doesn't matter all that much. Which no doubt is true - provided that is you have been at it for long enough to figure out which bits matter, and which don't - and to learn how to maintain both categories of variable where needed.

It's interesting actually, in that there's a definite school of sharpening that takes this latter (empirical?) view. Hand sharpening is a case in point, in that if it delivers a result then it does. As with some of the lifetime trade guys you see working in videos from markets and the like. They have so long since found ways around the little issues that they are not even conscious of what they are doing any more. The technique might not be the sort of thing taught in half an hour, but it's hard to argue with the magical results that extended practice and body memory can produce.

It's a very Zen deal actually...

My personal (engineering and more ideological) and not so experienced approach is to where possible stick with methods that incorporate precision/don't create hostages to unanticipated fortune, but i guess the other way is as above to over many years progressively knock the bugs out of a less formal method until it works - even if some variation that doesn't matter so much is left in...

[David Ragan]

Hi David(s). TBH i think it's a lot to do with mindset and situation. As in there's many that adopt the view that if it's sharp that a marginal lack of precision doesn't matter all that much. Which no doubt is true - provided that is you have been at it for long enough to figure out which bits matter, and which don't - and to learn how to maintain both categories of variable where needed.

It's interesting actually, in that there's a definite school of sharpening that takes this latter (empirical?) view. Hand sharpening is a case in point, in that if it delivers a result then it does. As with some of the lifetime trade guys you see working in videos from markets and the like. They have so long since found ways around the little issues that they are not even conscious of what they are doing any more. The technique might not be the sort of thing taught in half an hour, but it's hard to argue with the magical results that extended practice and body memory can produce.

It's a very Zen deal actually...

My personal (engineering and more ideological) and not so experienced approach is to where possible stick with methods that incorporate precision/don't create hostages to unanticipated fortune, but i guess the other way is as above to over many years progressively knock the bugs out of a less formal method until it works - even if some variation that doesn't matter so much is left in...

Just another reason why I love engineers. Because, as you implied, there is no absolute Black and White, just shades of grey.

Empirical is the correct word-not sure of exact definition, but you have it correct Ian.

And-you are correct that in any work, as experiences accumulate (making errors and seeing what has a significant impact on final result), one discovers where corners may be cut. Not many, I'm afraid, but there are some.

[ian maybury]

I'm an engineer, but I actually hand sharpened for most of my life David - but on generic oilstones and more recently on diamonds. We didn't even get stuff like Arkansas or other fine stones in our little backwater. And did fine for general purpose woodworking tasks.

Getting set up with Shapton waterstones and a Veritas Mk 2 guide and good irons proved a total eye opener - precisely formed (faceted as Winton likes to say) and 12,000 grit polished edges proved a revelation. There's a few kinks to using a honing guide well too, but I guess the point is that once the process is figured out getting these edges reliably requires only a bit of discipline. It's not even slow.

The bit I haven't figured out for definite yet is whether or not there are many out there hand sharpening and reliably matching that standard of edge. For sure it can be done, but do many make it that far? Or if they do can they maintain that standard over successive sharpenings?

[Winton Applegate]

Just another reason why I love engineers.

I look at it from a machine tooling perspective.
e.g. :
Say a machinist wants to cut a particular kind of metal in a particular high production operation.
The optimum cutter material, cutting edge grind angles, chip breaker aspects (yes they break chips in metal cutting tooling bits), cutting fluid, cutting speed, feed rates for a specified finish and or maximum amount of material that can be removed without damaging something . . .

this has pretty much been researched/calculated. All the technician has to do is look it up and follow it.
Does the technician say "Ahhhhh that's all B__ S___. I know better !
I can hand grind and hand polish an edge on the carbide or other high tech/high production cutter.
I don't need no precisely ground tool bits.

No. Not if they want to manufacture parts at the fastest rate possible with the least amount of down time.
I feel that way about the plane blades. Once I find the edge that works best for a batch of wood I want to be able to brainlessly repeat that edge over and over and over.
Not sorta round and bang my way to something that is sharp but poorly formed.
Hand held sharpening work is never going to be as precise as a machine ground set up.
Meaning a jig.

I heard the person who said they could hit 30° like clock work and all but I want to look at the microscopic area right at the edge. That is what is doing the cutting.
There is bound to be some slight rounding, while using more than two stones there is bound to be some areas that did not visit well with all three stones either the fine stone did not make it all the way to the edge or it did and then rounded over some of the edge. With jig sharpening things are more uniformly done, more easily repeatable when one is tired and takes almost no concentration or talent. Concentration and talent is fun for the first couple of blades but after the sixth or tenth edge there is bound to be some lapses.

I just like the 1 + 2 + 3 = 6 aspect of jig sharpening.
Hand sharpening is kind of 1ish + 2 ish + 3 ish adds up to a different result every time.

Some times it doesn't matter but sometimes it makes some real difference.

[Winton Applegate]

Davids books are really first rate.
I was thrilled to discover them back in the day when I was trying to learn real woodworking and all I had was text and photos (no classes). Then DVDs came along. Great to see the rhythm and speed of work being done but can't beat text and photos for focused, detailed, thoroughly thought through and refined communication of ideas.

[ian maybury]

David C's stuff is great, and the basis of the waterstone with honing guide technique i'm using now.

Guess it always comes down to the specific situation Winton. The on-stone honing guide based approach works really well for me, and though i know that with care i can produce something that works well by hand i can't match its absolute repeatability and precision. :) Plus i'm another sucker for your gleaming facets - whether it's a micro bevel on a plane iron, or a single bevel on a Japanese chisel.

Industrial techniques value repeatability very highly because the cost of scrap and re-work is huge - not to mention the way they play havoc with downstream process steps and with ability to deliver on time and to cost and quality standards. Whatever method is adopted has to be effective in the hands of Joe Average that comes in off the street to work too - even presuming time to build skills (which isn't usually available) much anything else leaves a business at the mercy of a cadre of highly skilled and almost irreplaceble crafts guys. This in low volume production scenarios might lead to a jig/fixture assisted process (as in the on-stone methods we're using, or as in Brian B's alternative using his off stone honing guide) with a requirement for significant skill and right motivation still remaining, in high volume situations (where it delivers a return on investment) it might be entirely automated and the issues become about machine capability (high and low limits to process capabilities) and machine operation. With (a different) skill set and right motivation remaining essential.

The guy who has been sharpening by hand for half a lifetime isn't (presuming he's very good, and is deeply into what he's doing) the same deal as the above Joe. Not only that - IF he can pull it off reliably by hand he may well be a bit quicker than even a highly practiced guide user. Not by very much mind you if the latter is also very good. There's also the little matter that given the need to haul out, wet up and flatten the waterstones and tidy up afterwards that the difference maybe isn't significant from a time point of view, and is more (?) down to personal preferences…. (ceramics sound promising though)

Setting aside this mythical worker of hand magic the methods put out by guys like David C are presumably chosen on the assumption that much like in industry they need to be accessible for the relatively un-practiced Joe too - although in this case it's Joe Hobby Woodworker who at least initially may not be so concerned about ultimate productivity.

Guess so far that i like the repeatability a guide introduces - but there's still plenty of scope to mess up with one if we are not very careful. The bottom line may be that in a private/personal work situation we're at least lucky enough have the freedom to be led by our own hearts, needs and preferences. All bets are off though when bragging rights get in the mix....

[David Ragan]

I got a new book yesterday! Actually two this week.

One was Scott Wynn book on planes--big proponent of free hand.

The other is a fundamental book by, um, I forgot (sorry!). I am so exhausted from completing the renovation.

I will post pics on workshop forum.

I did get my sharpening station back (all the clutter gone)