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Prashun Patel
02-24-2015, 8:57 AM
My tank is about 15 years old. I'm going to proactively replace it.

Any brand recommendations?
Any recommendations for automatic shut off valves?

Larry Edgerton
02-24-2015, 9:12 AM
Prashun

I just built a new house and did a bunch of reading on this. You do not specify gas or electric. Here's what I cam up with.

http://www.rheem.com/product/Residential-Electric-Water-Heaters-Marathon


It is just my wife and I here so looking at our water usage I compared the best gas heaters to the best electric heaters in the 40 gallon size. I was not replacing so the total install costs were looked at. Electric won, but if you have kids, etc.etc. it could change. The more you use the more gas looks better.

In my case I went with a Marathon electric. Arguably the best electric home water heater ever. Best insulation, best design, lifetime tank warranty, around $800. A comparable gas was in the $1500 dollar range with a lot more install and maintainance cost, and there never would have been a payback for us. As an added bonus I did not have to have an ugly vent sticking out the side of my house, and no noise from the powervent fan.

I have not seen the instants last very long in our area because of minerals in the water, so I did not consider them. Your results may vary.

Larry

Malcolm Schweizer
02-24-2015, 9:28 AM
I went with the Rheem 6.4 GPM tankless. My water comes out of the ground or the cistern at 80 deg F so I went with the smaller GPM. Up north I would get the larger one.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007XDK1R4/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?qid=1424787578&sr=8-7&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=Rheem+tankless&dpPl=1&dpID=31uYk90qtUL&ref=plSrch

I love it. There is some lag- about 15 seconds- but then you can take a shower all day long if you like. Once my daughter gets older I am sure this will be more appreciated.
I saved about $100 a month switching from electric, but remember I live where electricity costs 4 to 5 times the US rates, so you may save $20 a month.

You do need to buy a clean out valve and run vinegar through it every 3 or 4 months to keep it clean of deposits. I actually like this because it makes me wonder what is lying in the bottom of the tank in a tank heater! I like that I can clean my heater.

Larry Frank
02-24-2015, 9:40 AM
You have to look at local energy costs..in my area natural gas is hugely cheaper. You also need to balance the cost of very high efficiency versus lower efficiency both in running costs and install costs.

Certainly, a new water heater will be significantly more efficient.

I install my own gas water heaters.

Make certain to have very good shut off valves when it installed.

Prashun Patel
02-24-2015, 10:26 AM
I am natural gas.

Yes, so that's my next question: is there a reason I should NOT do it myself? I've plumbed a complete bathroom before.

Wade Lippman
02-24-2015, 10:27 AM
Not to steal a thread, but I will be replacing an induced draft 50 gallon this year. Since the gas and exhaust are already there, and I would have to put the electric in, would it make any sense to think about electric? (another consideration is having hot water during a power outage, electric would be a bit demanding for a generator...)

But since induced draft are so expensive anyhow, I was thinking of tankless. Would the existing exhaust work for them?

Wade Lippman
02-24-2015, 10:30 AM
I am natural gas.

Yes, so that's my next question: is there a reason I should NOT do it myself? I've plumbed a complete bathroom before.

I put my own NG in about 10 years ago in my previous house. If you can handle the plumbing involved it is simple enough.

Mine leaked gas, but it turned out to be a manufacturing defect rather than anything I did. GE had to send someone out to fix it.

Prashun Patel
02-24-2015, 10:53 AM
Any thoughts on automatic shutoff valves?

George Bokros
02-24-2015, 11:04 AM
Any thoughts on automatic shutoff valves?

Are these for the incoming water? If so I have never heard of them. I will have to google.

Jerry Bruette
02-24-2015, 11:07 AM
Can't help with the auto shutoff valve, but if you have hot water heat I'd look into the indirect fired water heaters. I have one and love it.

Prashun Patel
02-24-2015, 11:50 AM
It's a valve that goes on the incoming line. There's a sensor that rests in a pan under the heater. When it senses moisture, it closes the supply, so you only get a paltry 50 gallons flooding your basement.

Mike Henderson
02-24-2015, 11:56 AM
Go with a tankless. You'll love it. I have a Rheem. I'd never go back to a tank.

Also, I noticed a drop in my gas bill each month. I suppose since the tank has to keep the water hot all the time, it uses more gas than if you only heat the water when you need it. But I didn't go tankless for the cost saving. I did it because by the time I took my shower, and my wife started a load of clothes, when she went to take a shower, there was no hot water. So happy wife, happy life!

Mike

Chris Padilla
02-24-2015, 12:56 PM
I went with a heat pump electric water heater. Since I tossed solar panels on my roof, I've been switching things here and there back to electricity over natural gas. I have the AO Smith 60 gallon one. It is interesting having the heat pump. It is basically an air conditioner in reverse...sucks in ambient air to extract heat and blows out cool air. That is nice in the summer and not so nice in the winter depending upon where you exhaust it. So far so good with it but it and the heat pump is very efficient.

There are pros and cons to all hot water heating systems. Tank vs. tankless is an ongoing battle and you just have to understand the nuances of how they work and see if they'll fit your lifestyle.

While you're at it, you might look into hot water return systems. These are pumps that basically recirculate the cooled water in your hot water lines back into the tank to be reheated. In this way, you don't waste water waiting for the hot water to reach your faucet or shower.

Prashun Patel
02-24-2015, 1:50 PM
Awesome info guys. Thanks. You've given me a great deal to think about.

Wade Lippman
02-24-2015, 3:53 PM
It's a valve that goes on the incoming line. There's a sensor that rests in a pan under the heater. When it senses moisture, it closes the supply, so you only get a paltry 50 gallons flooding your basement.
I saw one where you put a sensor under the water heater, washing machine, etc. If any of them get wet they shut water off.
Having had floods from a toilet, dishwasher, and cloths washer I was really tempted, but I would have to rip a wall out to get access to the incoming pipe. Lousy design, there is just a tiny door that is way to small to work through.

Dimitrios Fradelakis
02-24-2015, 4:23 PM
Don't forget A.O. Smith.

John McClanahan
02-24-2015, 9:31 PM
When I had to replace our water heater, the few tankless model available local cost over twice as much as a tank type, so I stayed with the tank type. I found out later when I replaced our gas clothes drier with an electric one, that a tankless water heater may be more energy efficient, but doesn't save any money. During our non heating months, almost all of our gas bill goes to fixed costs and very little goes to the cost of the gas used. Our new clothes drier resulted in higher electric bills but the gas bills didn't drop.


John

Tom M King
02-24-2015, 9:53 PM
We actually do have a hot water heater. There are two in series. The first one serves the kitchen and baths in the original part of the house, and feeds the second one. The second one serves the master bath and dogroom. In the master bath is a Jacuzzi which needs both heaters to fill it all the way up. The first one is a water heater. The second one is a hot water heater.

Beau Cassidy
02-24-2015, 10:33 PM
I think the water cutoff valves/sensors you guys are talking about are called water cops. I am thinking about getting some for a house I am buying.

http://www.amazon.com/WaterCop-Wireless-Flood-Sensor-WH100/dp/B00035I4TG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1424835150&sr=8-2&keywords=Water+Cop

Also, on water heaters, it is my understanding the government is looking out for us and is forcing mandatory changes to them beginning April 15. It is supposed to limit tank size to 50 gallons and the overall size of the water heater will be a little larger- something to consider if you have tight confines. I am buying 2 new current-style Rheems to replace the 8 year old cheapies in the house I am getting.

Prashun Patel
02-24-2015, 11:00 PM
The reading I have been doing says that after April 15 you can still have a larger tank (mine's 75 gal) for natural gas but it must meet some EF requirements. In NJ if it meets the EF standard, is power vented and is Energy Star qualified, we can get a $500 rebate.

Ted Calver
02-25-2015, 12:32 AM
It's a valve that goes on the incoming line. There's a sensor that rests in a pan under the heater. When it senses moisture, it closes the supply, so you only get a paltry 50 gallons flooding your basement.
I had one installed on the hot water heater in the attic on our new house (now 7 years old) because some friends had a tank in the same location leak and cause massive damage to ceilings and the rooms below. It worked as advertised when the tank started leaking six months later because of a plumber's error. The sensor was a dissoluble tablet inside a brass fixture set in the drip pan. When the water got 1/2" deep in the pan the tablet melted and the mechanism shut off both the water and gas. There was a drain line from the pan that probably would have prevented flooding, but why take a chance. About $150 installed...IIRC it was called a floodstop or something like that.

Malcolm Schweizer
02-25-2015, 1:51 AM
The reading I have been doing says that after April 15 you can still have a larger tank (mine's 75 gal) for natural gas but it must meet some EF requirements. In NJ if it meets the EF standard, is power vented and is Energy Star qualified, we can get a $500 rebate.

We got $500 off our taxes for buying an energy saving water heater. I paid $599 for the water heater!

Prashun Patel
02-27-2015, 11:36 AM
FYI, here's where I ended up:

I ended up getting an old style, direct vent water heater. In order to get the $500 credit, I would need to get a more expensive, power vented unit and in addition to requiring an outlet near my heater to power the fan, I may have had to upgrade my flue to pvc. It also appears to me that the prices of the higher efficiency units reflect the rebates. It all seems to be a wash.

To boot, the cheapest part of the project is the labor cost, which includes removal of the old unit. All told, it just didn't make sense for me to waste a day and (invariably) 3 trips to and from BORG to get adapters and the like.

Chris Padilla
02-27-2015, 12:37 PM
Good point about the rebates. For the heat pump water heater I got from AO Smith, I had two rebates: $500 from PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric) and $300 from Fed. So the $1100 cost for this water heater is really $300 and I felt that would be recouped in 2-3 years factoring in the efficiency of the heat pump assuming no issue with the water heater. I am about 18 months into ownership and so far so good.

However, that cost isn't truly accurate as there was some cost in wiring, valves, copper, and breakers since I was converting from gas to electric. Maybe 4 years for payback. :D

Jerry Bruette
02-27-2015, 12:38 PM
Did you get the shut off valves?

Jim Becker
02-27-2015, 2:27 PM
I went tankless on both systems in our home; the addition first and then the original house once a unit that used PVC became available. Both are WaiWala (Paloma) and "do the job". (We originally installed a Bosch in our addition, but it wasn't, um...a good purchase.)

http://www.tanklesswaterheaters.com/tankless-water-heaters/paloma-phh-32rdv.html

Larry Edgerton
02-27-2015, 3:27 PM
Prashun, Its actually a "Cold" water heater, just saying.......:p

Prashun Patel
02-27-2015, 3:38 PM
YOU are a cold water THROWER, apparently ;)

Bob Coates
02-27-2015, 4:39 PM
I was working at a retirement home and installed flood stop brand on water heaters. They worked. If you install one make sure it works, I encountered some bad ones.

Bob

Ted Calver
02-27-2015, 6:28 PM
I was working at a retirement home and installed flood stop brand on water heaters. They worked. If you install one make sure it works, I encountered some bad ones.Bob

Bob, How do you test them?

Ole Anderson
02-28-2015, 12:31 AM
Eight years ago I purchased a GE gas (go figure) hot water heater with a life time GE warranty. Got it at the HD and it wasn't all that expensive. Installed it myself, no big deal. Just be sure to use dialectic couplings if you plumb with copper.

Bob Coates
03-05-2015, 4:48 PM
Sorry for not answering sooner. If you install batteries and before installing on live water system, 1) use the test button on control unit, 2) just put water on control board. The defects were valve did not close or open, the valve or the control unit itself or found weak batteries. After installing you can use the test button to close the valve also.
Bob

Ted Calver
03-05-2015, 9:31 PM
Sorry for not answering sooner. If you install batteries and before installing on live water system, 1) use the test button on control unit, 2) just put water on control board. The defects were valve did not close or open, the valve or the control unit itself or found weak batteries. After installing you can use the test button to close the valve also.
Bob

Thanks, Bob.

Bill Cunningham
03-07-2015, 9:27 PM
Switched from oil heat to gas a while back. My tankless heater(80k btu) uses 14 cents of gas a day compared to 600$ a year on oil. Also installed a 3 stage hi-eff furnace, and the biggest heat pump Carrier makes. All cost $18k but got back $5k in rebates

Jim Matthews
03-08-2015, 9:21 AM
I replaced my last standard gas heater with an AO Smith, glass lined tank.

You can put as many shutoffs in line as you like, if the tank develops a perforation,
all 75 gallons will find their way out.

I don't recommend installing this yourself, unless money is seriously tight.
If the heater is 15 years old, so are the pipes and fittings.

Something unexpected will fail in copper pipe and you won't have the necessary part.
That will happen at the end of the weekend install, when your plumbing supplier is closed.

This isn't like a toilet bathroom remodel, where you have a backup system.

That, and you'll still have to dispose of the old tank.

This is one of those jobs that has less labor than materials involved.
Hire the plumber.

Brian Elfert
03-08-2015, 7:27 PM
I had a new gas water heater put in when my house was remodeled last fall. (Previous water heater was electric and 82 gallons.) It cost me $2,000 which I thought was really steep. The plumber did move the water heater to the other side of the utility room as part of the project. He also had to put in a PVC exhaust as none existed.

I believe I'll save enough over 10 years to pay for the water heater. The electric bill previously was over $3,600 a year or an average of over $300 a month for electric baseboard heat and electric water heater. I also replaced the electric heat with forced air gas heat. Winter electric bill was over $500 a month and my highest gas and electric bill this winter has been $170. Total bill to install gas forced air heat with central air and new gas water heater was $25,000. I think I will save enough on utility bills to pay for the entire project by the time the furnace needs replacement. I should save over $1,800 a year in utility costs.

Scott Besaw
04-01-2016, 11:32 AM
Hi Chris,

What do you think of your water heater now that you have had it for 2 1/2 years ? Has anyone else bought a hybrid water heater?

Chris Padilla
04-01-2016, 1:59 PM
I'll assume that question is pointed at me, Scott. You might want to click on "reply with quote" when replying to a specific post within the thread.

So far so good with the HPWH (heat pump water heater) although I do have an issue...perhaps a serious one and that is rust or corrosion.

The heat pump draws water out of the air it sucks in as it extracts the heat. There is a tray that connects to some pipes outside the WH that drain it away. I think one of the problems I have is that my WH is not installed perfect level since my WH is in the garage. This allows some water to remain in the tray as the drain point is no longer the lowest point. Since there is a fan hooked to the front of the 'radiator', it tends to pick up the water and blow it around. Many things/items/parts/etc. in that area are all rusting. I also have drips running down the side of the tank that show little rust lines. I haven't removed the top tank cover in a while and I shudder to do so but I fear I may have issue some day. So far, so good...it works like a champ but I wonder for how much longer. There is ZERO mention in the manual about ensuring the tank be made level. I sure wish there had been something as I could have addressed it during the installation. But now that it is installed, it is A LOT more painful to fix it but I do need to.

Another issue and one that I think folks online have mentioned: poor exterior paint and quality control of it. There are little blisters/bubbles of paint all over the tank with rust popping through and it came that way one brand new from the factory. Since the water tank is plastic, I'm not worried about it leaking but this is unfortunate to get such a bad paint job.

Mike Henderson
04-01-2016, 3:21 PM
Hi Chris,

What do you think of your water heater now that you have had it for 2 1/2 years ? Has anyone else bought a hybrid water heater?
Just an additional comment: I put in a tankless water heater several years ago and it's been wonderful. No problems at all and my gas bill is much lower since I don't have to keep a tank of water hot. Also, I never run out of hot water.

One maintenance issue is that you need to flush them annually with vinegar to remove any calcium build up in the tubes.

Mike

Jim Tobias
04-01-2016, 3:52 PM
Prashun,
We went with a Rinnai tankless NG water heater a few years back when our old gas water heater went down. It has turned out to be one of the "best decisions" in awhile. We have family (read 15-20) people visiting occasionally for a long weekend. We used to run out of hot water all the time. Between dishwasher and grandkids diapers/clothes, everyone showering, etc. we were constantly having to wait for reheat of old gas water heater.
NOT anymore, this Rinnai really does the job.....ALL DAY LONG!
The dealer can help with sizing the heater for your capacity needs.
Jim

Scott Besaw
04-01-2016, 4:06 PM
Thanks Chris. I did not know any of the hybrids had plastic tanks. The new A.O.Smith hybrids have anodes, so they must not be plastic. I will take your advice and look into everything you mentioned.

Mike
I have electric, no gas. I looked into the tankless. The electric tankless uses 3 double 40 amp breakers. Having an all electric house and a shop full of tools is already pushing the limit of my 200 amp service.

Mike Null
04-01-2016, 4:07 PM
I recently replaced a 20 year old 50 gallon gas unit. It cost $1200 for a Rheem includng installation and haul-away of the old unit. there is a new code in our area which requires some type of a safety pop-off device. It fits in the water line immediately above the water heater and resembles a small propane tank. I considered all the units and then went with the recommendation of my plumber who does all my work.

Jim Becker
04-01-2016, 7:59 PM
Both of our water heaters remain high efficiency natural gas fired tankless units. I'd never go back to a tank type system...

Stan Calow
04-02-2016, 9:05 AM
Prashun, Rheem is the brand plumbers have told me they would use if they can. Ours is from American (that's the brand name made in Tennesee) But I think the one thing to look for is a brass drain valve, not a plastic one. Plastic ones seem to get jammed easily. Yeah I think they are self-installable - I just avoid plumbing after a few disasters. Plus you have to get rid of the old one.

Gas is better than electric because they will work in power outage.