Struggling with table saw purchase

[Scott Brandstetter]

This in NOT a thread to discuss why I should go to a sawstop for the safety features, Lord knows I understand the reasons. My main struggle is like many others I'm sure. I had my mind set on the grizzly rlx with 50 inch table, 3HP, but I find myself comparing it to the Jet, which I own many Jet tools and totally satisfied. Then, I think, not too far from the cost of the sawstop. All of a sudden I go from a ~$1500 saw to a ~$2000 to a ~$3000 saw.

Couple things at play, when I work this through my mind.

Any saw will be an upgrade from the 1 1/2 hp Ridgid that has served me well for the last 10yrs plus.
I want to buy a saw that will outlast me and my needs
I don't want to be penny wise, pound foolish
I don't have unlimited funds and I have others tools i would like to upgrade (6 inch jointer, 14 inch bandsaw, drill press)
I am starting a small business after years of requests from many, so accuracy, ease of use, would be nice.


Please respond if you've been down this road. I really would appreciate the thoughts, maybe regrets.

[Mike Schuch]

I have a Powermatic 65 10" cabinet saw and a Powermatic 71 12" cabinet saw. I have used Deltas, Rockwells, Grizzlys, Jets and Craftsmans table saws.

To me, they are all just about the same. I prefer the left tilt blade on my Powermatics but would not turn down a right tilt saw. To me there just isn't really that much difference between cabinet saws until you get into the European type sliding table saws with scoring blades. Those are a considerable improvement over the standard American style saws. I would love to have a good sliding table table saw with a scoring blade!

I think the most important thing to consider when purchasing an american style table saw is to choose one that comes in a color that will be harmonious with the colors of the other machines in your shop... AS LONG AS YOU GET A GOOD FENCE!!!!!

[John Sincerbeaux]

To me the table saw is the heart of any shop. You mentioned a business? If you are going to be doing case work, I would recommend a slider. Also, what kind of power to you have available? 3ph? How much space do you have and what kind of dust collection will support the tablesaw? Bottom line, buy the biggest and best equipment you can afford.

[Chris Parks]

if you are going into business buy a slider as John recommended. It changes the way you work, just about eliminates the need for a mitre saw on a day to day basis. and is way safer than a conventional saw. Used properly your hands do not get anywhere near the blade.

[Randy Red Bemont]

I have the Grizzly 1023RLX and it will suit your situation perfectly. It is strong, accurate right out of the box and is just a great all around table saw. Cutting down sheet goods is easy to do by yourself. I did run my own custom furniture shop back in the 90's and this saw would have been a big welcome back then. I also purchased the mobile base and moving this saw is very easy. Dust collection is good like most other saws. I would buy it again today if I needed another table saw.

Red

[Dennis Aspö]

A slider on a conventional cabinet saw is also a great upgrade IMO. My german hybrid cabinet saw is built like that and I find it very useful a design. Never needed a miter gauge yet.

[scott spencer]

The TS is the heart and soul of my shop, so I don't mind spending more resources for that tool. From my perspective, it's very important to get what you like. When I made the jump from a 120v hybrid to a 3hp cabinet saw, I noticed a big difference in many small aspects....70% more power is pretty obvious, but I also noticed the extra mass, how well the bigger hand wheels worked, how it sounds when I hit the start button, that the blade never slows and is less sensitive to blade changes, and I felt like I would never be overtaxing that saw. :) I'd guess that you'll notice similar differences if you make a similar jump in class, but judging between similar 3hp cabinet saws is likely to be less obvious.

Grizzly has a lot of saws in use, and is pretty well proven...they're also considered to be a great bang for the buck if you're willing to be your own middleman. Jet is well proven too, but at roughly a 33% premium, I'm not convinced the value is as good unless having strong dealer support and longer warranty are worth it to you.

The Saw Stop is a 100% premium for a 3hp cabinet saw, but is largely considered a step up in quality, plus has a unique and remarkable safety feature....whether or not you can justify twice the money for that feature and extra niceness is up to you. If your business grows, and you end up with employees and/or family working in the shop, will you regret not making that investment now? In the event of an accident, how critical is your income to your family's well being? Do you have medical insurance? How much more income can you generate by buying extra tools and capacity if you choose to upgrade your jointer, bandsaw, or DP instead? All questions that you appear to have already considered, but that only you can really answer.

[William C Rogers]

It's a tough decision. I am just a hobbiest, but bought a new saw a year ago. I looked at sliders, but I didn't know how they really operated. Grizzly has one that is about $3K, but couldn't find much in the way of reviews on their saw. I would have liked to have had a Hammer, but for what I wanted it was pushing $5K. I contacted Grizzly and Hammer to see if there was anyone within 3 hours of my location where I could see the sliding saws, but no luck. You might want to try to see if anyone in you area would show their sliding saw. I would be pushing to afford the Hammer and was unsure on the Grizzly. I ended up with the SawStop. The safety won out over the Delta and Powermatic. The Hammer has great reviews and I haven't seen where anyone is unhappy with those saws. If I knew a little more about sliders I may have went that way.

[Jim Dwight]

A consideration to me would be how bad you need money from this business. If it will be a semi-hobby with the ability to turn down work and work at your own pace, then I think normal table saws can work. The only times I've been "bitten" by a tool was when I was pushing to get something done. If you will need to hold to schedule (due to personality or finances) then I would get a SawStop. I do not care for the inventer of this technology at all but I think it has it's place.

[Rod Sheridan]

Scott, for me a no brainer would be a small Euro slider with a scoring blade.

I have one in a hobby shop and there's no way I would ever go backwards to a cabinet saw again.

The slider has far more capacity and capability than a cabinet saw.

Coupled with the ability to straight line rip solid lumber, the safety aspects of the multi-function rip fence, the excellent dust collection, and the ability to use clamps to hold material on the sliding table, there's no comparison to a cabinet saw which only does one task well, ripping.

Regards, Rod.

[Rich Riddle]

After reviewing your questions, I have to agree with Rod. Sometimes he is just right (a few times anyway). The slider will meet your needs in the future. You don't get your hands close to the blade when using a slider. It significantly reduces/eliminates the risk of kick-back. Repeated cuts are a breeze with the system the slide uses. I found a few good used sliders in your price range and wouldn't hesitate purchasing one. Do yourself a favor, avoid the 6" jointer and 14" bandsaw you discussed unless constantly updating tools appeals to you.

[Bill Space]

Well, slider yes if you can afford it.

But maybe you can not. Like RRB above, I also have a Grizzly 1023RLW AND LOVE IT. it is a great saw for the money. You will be able to do a lot with a saw like this. It is all about bang for the buck if funds are limited.

As as soon as one mentions business it seems like nothing but the best will do. But the reality is that at lot of craftsman have been successful in business with less than state of the art tools.

My Grizzly is not the best saw out there but it IS THE BEST saw out there for me, all things considered. A similar saw might be best for you, all things considered.

We all want THE BEST but sometimes need to compromise.

I do not drive a Rolls, Ferrari or even a high end American car. But my Ford van sure works wonders when I need to haul things!

Don't get too hung up on having to have the best when starting out. The best can come later along with success in your endeavor.

Bill

[John Sanford]

I don't want to be penny wise, pound foolish

That sounds like a recipe for either a SawStop or a slider. Before making your decision, I would talk it over with your insurance agent/workman's comp provider, especially if you're going to be serious about the business side and get insurance on that. The savings today that you'll have getting a Grizzly 3hp cabinet saw may be eaten up by higher insurance premiums over 5-10 years. (I don't see 'em being eaten up in less time, unless you also have employees.) This is assuming a no-accident scenario. Once you move into the accident zone, the lower risk (slider) and or less harmful consequences (SawStop) quickly pay for themselves. One problem with the slider is that the savings is less obvious, because it's working to PREVENT an accident. On the SawStop, that bang! is a pretty good indicator that something bad may have just not happened.

Setting those considerations aside, as well as used machines, the best, most flexible yet affordable option is likely the Grizzly G0623X slider. If that's too pricey, then whatever flavor of Grizzly 1023 (or Steel City 3hp cabinet saw, 25% currently at WoodWerks) that floats your boat. I, personally, wouldn't spend the additional money for a PM. If I'm going to drop that much coin for a saw that's made in Asia, I'll get the safety features of the SawStop to boot.

[Chris Padilla]

If we knew more about your business but then again, maybe you don't really know where it'll take you! :)

That said, the best bang for the buck in tables saw is Grizzly. I have a 1023Z I bought new in 2000 for just under a grand. It is still on its original belts (all 3) although every summer I think about changing them. It has a 3 Hp motor and has never bogged down on anything. I'm a hobbyist so it hasn't been run through the ringer but I'm honestly waiting for it to die on me someday so I have an excuse for a slider. :) Perhaps the next best item on my table saw is my Incra fence!! I love all my Incra products and their fences with the positive stops and nearly perfect repeatability has saved my bacon numerous times.

[William A Johnston]

I've had the uni saw 3hp for over 10 years and it has been a great saw for case work. If I was to do it all over again I would lean towards a slider with a scoring blade. We use saw stop where I work and it has been a blessing as we have had the safety cartridge replaced on more than one occasion. I am not familiar with the European saws such as Felder or Hammer but they get raging reviews and are obviously top notch.

[Jim Andrew]

I have a 10 year old Unisaw, and last year I bought a Hammer K3 winner, with long slider, 79" with 48" rip capacity. Was planning to sell the Uni, but kept it. Nice to have both. I can set the dado up on my Uni, and square the pieces up with the Hammer, and then run the grooves on the Uni. I have a lot of Grizzly machines, and the same size Grizzly slider is less than half the price of the Hammer. Probably should have considered it.

[Nick Stokes]

I am a beginning WW. I purchased a SS PCS. I love it, and it was, and will continue to be, a great purchase for me. I wanted a forever saw, and I type for a living.

The choices to me were either used cabinet saw, or NEW PCS. There is no way I was going to buy a new saw, and it not be a SS. Doesn't make sense. If I could have found a used cabinet saw for $1000 or so with a riving knife, I might have considered it... But if you think about an extra $2000, over say, 20 years... Doesn't make sense not to have it. Anytime you spend money on something you will use that lasts that amount of time... IMO you need to buy MORE than you can afford...

That was my thought process anyway.

[Keith Hankins]

Well I had the Griz 1023slx with 7' rails for 10+ years and it served me well. Made decent cuts. I had added an overarm guard, the microjig to act as a splitter, along with the shopfox mobile base. When you add it all together, it was not that far off from the PCS. Not really that big a deal when you take that difference and amortize it over the life of the saw. If you are going into business think of what works best. Cheap is not the best answer, nor is getting something that is overkill either.

I upgraded last year to the 5hp ICS for multiple reasons. I wanted the safety, and quality, and also it will be my last saw. I wanted the 5hp to support my making beds and I work with 12/4 & 16/4 material. I made a bed with a 3hp, but it was slow and painful. Not so with the 5hp. If not for wanting the 5hp, I'd got a PCS.

If you will be doing as a business think of the other costs as well such as insurance. Also consider what you want to make with it. Will you be using a lot of sheet goods .vs. mainly solid wood. Have you considered a slider as well?

I went through all of the above. The insurance did not enter into my decision as I'm 3 years from my jumping into bus after I retire. I will be ready at that time. Good luck in your decision.

[Martin Wasner]

Personally, I'd go with a Powermatic 66. It's a generally a solid saw. I have two, and a Delta that is set up for dado-ing. Delta's for the most part are fine, but it is definitely a lighter built saw than the Powermatic. I can't stand the uni-fence that some Delta's have. Mine came with one, and it was taken off and replaced with a Beisemeyer right away. I like the Delta as a dado saw because the blades stack up away from the fence. Any shimming that is done to the dado head won't effect zero on the fence. With a Powermatic, you're always running math on the fly as to where the fence needs to be when working with a dado head.

That being said, it's tough to get a square cut on sheet stock, when the sheets aren't square to begin with. Then a slider or a vertical panel saw becomes neccessary. I prefer vertical panel saws, just because I hate loading sheet stock onto a slider.

[Larry Frank]

If I were you, I would go see and feel the saws that you are thinking about. I have never used a slider and probably not too many have. I would want to try one. I did put my hands on the Sawstop slider and the slider is very nice.

Take your time and find the one that you are satisfied with.

[Christopher Fallago]

I was looking at replacing my ridgid 4510 in December (the one with the granite top) because it had lots of issues and was not worth fixing. After looking around and talking to a few people I made the decision to get a slider because I felt that they are a safer design and I could get a combo machine too. I am in dental school so safety is really important to me, I need all my fingers and limbs (maybe legs aren't so important to me) so I was really between a sawstop and a slider. I could not justify the price of the sawstop cabinet saw, it was really solidly built, but too much money considering that you can get more machine for just a little more money at that point. I was looking at new stuff at first and really liked the minimax CU300, I just did not have the money for a new anything with a slider really, and a used CU300 is hard to come by. I was leaning more towards a combo, so I looked at all of the brands (except martin and altendorf) and felt that the minimax/scmi and felder machines where better quality compared to the roblands and others. find that you can basically use it the same as you would a cabinet saw. I was finding that I could get a better saw for less money if it was 3 phase, which I was opposed to at first because I dont have 3 phase service.
Long story short, I got a phase converter for $600 after finding a 2002 Felder KF700 sliding table saw/shaper combo for $2500 on craigslist. The nice thing is that I have the router spindle for the shaper and the saw has the scoring unit, and everything is extremely solid. For me I will never need to replace this saw, it does more than I need and is very accurate. The other thing is that I can now buy other 3 phase stuff. If you are open to buying used, craigslist has some great deals sometimes.

[Roy Turbett]

I don't want to be penny wise, pound foolish

That sounds like a recipe for either a SawStop or a slider. Before making your decision, I would talk it over with your insurance agent/workman's comp provider, especially if you're going to be serious about the business side and get insurance on that. The savings today that you'll have getting a Grizzly 3hp cabinet saw may be eaten up by higher insurance premiums over 5-10 years. (I don't see 'em being eaten up in less time, unless you also have employees.) This is assuming a no-accident scenario. Once you move into the accident zone, the lower risk (slider) and or less harmful consequences (SawStop) quickly pay for themselves. One problem with the slider is that the savings is less obvious, because it's working to PREVENT an accident. On the SawStop, that bang! is a pretty good indicator that something bad may have just not happened.



+1 on what John says. When I was doing a nationwide CL search for a Sawstop I came across many qualtiy used saws that were being sold because they were replaced with a Sawstop because of insurance company requirements and/or premiums.

[Doug Colombo]

I replaced an old Craftsman TS 2 years ago, struggled with which saw to get, and ended up with the Detla Unisaw. Love it and have never looked back. I really like the front mounted controls for tilt, height, and riving knife. I have not used euro sliders so I can not offer any insight on those. Good Luck !