Brand New and Overwhelmed with Powertool Options

[Daniel McPherson]

I am starting out in woodworking but one thing I learned from welding(which I also do) is that I can't stand buying something then later wishing I hadn't cheaped out and settled for a tool that wasn't the best I could afford.

My shop is being built and will house my auto, welding/fab and woodworking. It is 40X64 in size but I haven't decided how much to devote to woodworking. I am thinking approx 20X20 for the woodworking portion. This space does NOT count wood storage as I can house the wood in an a separate area. In addition to run the table saw I can slide the door open that separates the wood area from the welding/fab so I can feed boards onto the table saw. I can also do glue ups and finishing in a different section of the shop in the welding/fab bay. All power is single phase.

So...
I have been trying to figure out what to do for a jointer and a planer. I believe (tell me if I am wrong) that I have enough room for separate tools. I have been googling for a week straight trying to figure out what to get. Hammer? Minimax? Powermatic? Jet? It is really overwhelming.

I want to get the best tools I can afford. I really don't want to have to go through the tool and double check everything to make sure it is square/flat (maybe there is no way getting around this). So what unit/units should I buy? What features should I make sure they have?

[jack duren]

Its not question of what but how much? Figure out what you want to buy first and then seek advise...

[Daniel McPherson]

I want a jointer and a planer. I want to keep the overall cost for these two items (or single combo item) to 5-6K if possible. I am leaning towards the powermatic line of tools. It sounds like I should lean towards an 8" jointer and a 15" planer?

Does this help?

[Matt Krusen]

You certainly won't go wrong with the Powermatic 8" jointer and 15" planer. Great tools. Some of the combo machines are great tools and plenty of people love them. They are certainly a good option but personally I prefer having the tools as individual units. Given your budget and space, I think you can easily do both at the quality you want. Powermatic is running a 15% off machinery sale right now so now is the time to pull the trigger if you've decided to go that route. With your budget and that 15% off sale, you could afford to have helical heads in them both which is definitely a huge plus!

[mike mcilroy]

Check out Grizzly Tools their jointers and planers get good reviews for a lot less $$

[Daniel McPherson]

That is what I was thinking. So, of the powermatic units, which jointer and which planer should I buy? Are there other WW machines made by Powermatic that I will need in the future that I should purchase while I am at it?

FYI I plan on buying a Sawstop for a table saw.

[Matt Krusen]

Mike brings up a good point. For the price of a Powermatic 8" jointer, you can get a 12" Grizzly with a helical head. Of all the Grizzly tools, their jointers and planers seem to get the best reviews. Powermatic is a level of quality higher than Grizzly but I fully believe that you'd be happy going the Grizzly route as well. I'm actually considering their 12" jointer myself.

As far as other tools to consider at this time, I would say start out with the "Big 4". Table saw, jointer, planer, bandsaw. You will have a fully functional shop and can expand from there as needs arise.

Table saw. At the SawStop price, your other option is the Powermatic PM2000 which is also eligible for the 15% off sale. Brings the price under that of the SawStop. Both are amazing machines. Just have to weigh the debate on whether the SawStop technology is worth the added cost. I won't get into it as that topic is well documented (see definition of "beating a dead horse".

[Kent A Bathurst]

I want a jointer and a planer. I want to keep the overall cost for these two items (or single combo item) to 5-6K if possible. I am leaning towards the powermatic line of tools. It sounds like I should lean towards an 8" jointer and a 15" planer?

Does this help?

Go no less than 8" on the jointer. If a 12" fits you plans and budget, go there.

Big diversity of opinion here about the planer. The "lunchbox" style @ 12-1/2" has a lot of adherents. With a jointer < 12-1/2", not any overwhelming reason to go bigger, IMO.

Me - I gots an 8" PM 60B with straight knives, and a Delta DC-380 15" with straight knives.

Also a lot - LOT - of fans for the helical heads. I have no argument, and no experience, on that product - they weren't really available way-back-when I got my stuff, and I haven't seen the need to spend the $$ on upgrades. At the same time, if I was buying new today, it would give me great pause in my decision.

You also have opened the Pandora's box, aka can 'o' worms, on the debate about Chiwanese value for dollar [PM, Jet, etc.], versus european premier quality [Hammer, minimax, etc.] On the Chiwanese end is the Grizz line.........which is hard to ignore.

You've really opened this up pretty wide, but your budget range of "up to $6k" for those two gives you a lot of options, including the helical heads on both, for the Chiwanese. I don't think you can hit that target with new Euro stuff, though, unless you go to a combo. I don't think you will have a floor-space crisis dictating the J/P, but others will have to give you an evaluation.

[Bill Space]

Hi,

Don't laugh off Grizzly.

Much better for a home shop to have a 12" Grizzly jointer and and a 20" Grizzly planer than smaller "higher quality" devices that cost the same or more.

Many of us are quite happy with the quality and performance of Grizzly tools.

Now if money is no object, then decide what size you want/need before buying then buy the best out there. You will get some bit of improved performance for a lot of extra cash. But who cares if you can afford it and the cost is not an issue?

I would think carefully about what I might need in the future. Buy once what you really need, or buy again. This is not just a price issue, but also a needs issue. The highest quality item that ends up being too small in the future is no worse than buying cheap and then buying quality the second time.

My thoughts anyway...Good luck with your purchases!

Bill

[Derek Arita]

Ok...ok a jointer/planer guy. I have a MM FS30, 12". I find I really like the 12" jointer capability and have never needed more planer than I have jointer. I also have a PM PJ882 parallelogram and it works great, however I never use it. If you can afford a Felder 16" J/P, even better! If not, work down from there.
Point is, for the space savings and increased capacity and cut quality, it would be tough to go back to separates. Also, switching back and forth from J to P is no hassle. Choose wisely.

[Larry Frank]

I missed something....what kind of woodworking are you wanting to get into? How much time are you going to have to do the woodworking. I would spend some time giving it some thought. Another question is are you going to buy rough sWan wood or not.

For example, I buy wood planed to 7/8" and straight line cut one edge. I do not use a jointed but still build furniture.

You will also need dust collection and a lot of hand tools.

I am glad that I came into this gradually over 45 years now and do not need to buy all new tools now.

Good luck

[Peter Kelly]

If were starting from zero I'd consider a MiniMax Lab 300. Nice to have a sliding table shaper and saw.

[Justin Ludwig]

http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/combination-machines.html

[Chris Merriam]

FYI, effective March 1st Sawstop is kicking off another free base or overhead dust guard offer, a 199 value. Just found out at Woodcraft today and will wait another week to place my order to save 200.

[Kent A Bathurst]

FYI, effective March 1st Sawstop is kicking off another free base or overhead dust guard offer, a 199 value. Just found out at Woodcraft today and will wait another week to place my order to save 200.

And that relates to a jointer-planer question how, exactly??

I know that SS is the cat's pajamas, based on what I read here, but that seems a bit of a stretch..................

[Chris Merriam]

And that relates to a jointer-planer question how, exactly??

I know that SS is the cat's pajamas, based on what I read here, but that seems a bit of a stretch..................

Because in post #6 the OP said he is buying a SS, and I thought he'd like to know he can save $200

[Andrew Joiner]

I want to get the best tools I can afford. I really don't want to have to go through the tool and double check everything to make sure it is square/flat (maybe there is no way getting around this). So what unit/units should I buy? What features should I make sure they have?

Daniel,
What are you going to build?

For all tools and machines I would double check everything to make sure it is square/flat when you receive them. There's posts on here about low and high price brands being less than perfect as shipped.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Because in post #6 the OP said he is buying a SS, and I thought he'd like to know he can save $200

Fair enough, Chris - I missed that. My apologies.

I guess my eyes just glaze over whenever SS or Green Kool-aid come up........ :p

My fault.

Carry on..................

[Wade Lippman]

Dropping $20,000 on WW tools when you haven't done any woodworking might not be the best approach. But if the money isn't important, then never mind.

About 10 years ago I bought two unused DCs and an unused RAS from a guy for $300. He also had an unused sliding TS, but I had no room for it. He needed to get rid of them because he was upgrading all his tools. I bet he never used the new ones either.

[Daniel McPherson]

Andrew - You asked what I am going to build. Let me explain my experience with welding, that may help. I had an item at my house break and thought, "Crap, well lets go buy a entry level machine so I can fix it, then I will have a welder on the off chance I ever use it." Well, that was four years ago. I have since had to buy and re-buy as I upgraded all my equipment once I realized I had a passion for fabrication that makes it so my wife drags me out of the shop each night. So at this point I want to make a bunch of shelving and cabinets for my welding, automotive, fabrication shop. But, I know how I am and five years from now I will probably be completely addicted to woodworking. Especially since the people I know who do both metal and wood tend to prefer wood. So the short answer is, "I'm not quite sure I know what I want to build, but I want to get tools that will allow me to build most anything without having to sell and repurchase for more capacity etc."

I don't know if that helps or not.

I understand needing to check each machine once it is received. I am sure that there are somethings that if out of spec are easy fixes and others that are huge fundamental issues. (Replace a bearing vs an improperly machined cast iron top) I would prefer to not have to monkey with any "fixes"

[David Kumm]

Start off buying reasonably cheap or used until you develop your hobby and find out what you like doing. Not all bad to learn, reassess, and upgrade. I started out with Jet, Seco, Delta, and upgraded, and upgraded, etc, etc. I've now found i like rehabbing old high end woodworking machines to build big stuff, entry doors, workbenches, cabinets. There is no way i could have predicted in 1995 what I would like in 2015. Starting out lower end also teaches you what to look for in a better machine and how many levels of build are out there. The hobby takes many variations. Dave

[Jim Dwight]

There is a huge diminishing returns point with woodworking tools. I have a Ryobi BT3100 table saw I bought new for about $300. I've built several bedroom sets with it. I dovetail drawers with a HF jig with a Grizzly template guide. I don't think cheap routers or hand-held tools in general make sense, I mostly stick to DeWalt, Milwaukee, Bosch, etc.. But my cordless tools are Ryobi and work fine. I also have a large HF hammer drill. I use a Ryobi AP-10 planner. Not many boards are over 10 inches wide. My planner is an old INCA 8 5/8 inch.

If I was starting over, I would get a decent table saw (wouldn't be a SS but I have no doubt they are decent), then a sliding miter saw (unless I found an old RAS), then a bunch of hand tools, then maybe a planner, then maybe a jointer. I'd get a track saw and keep the table saw to 30 inch rip. The track saw can put a straight edge on boards too. The track saw is the best way to cut up sheet goods.

[John C Bush]

I live close to the Griz Bellingham showroom and have had the luxury of seeing all their goodies on display and no shipping fee when I pull the trigger. I had a PM 8" jointer and now have the Griz 12" spiral and like it better. Good fit and finish and great performer. Had a classic Parks 12" planer and now have a Griz 20" spiral-bought it used and is also a great performer. Had a Rikon 18" BS-liked it but wanted bigger capacity and foot brake and now have Griz 21",good F&F and great resawing with a good blade. Also have Griz osc. spindle sander, edge sander, and 2hp DC--all have been good performers. TS is a SS ICS. I have been very pleased with Griz and as a hobby WWer I think their machines are a good value. I have a friend with a WoodMizer and usually mill out rough stock for my projects and rarely have needed larger capacity. If you plan to use pre-milled/dimensioned stock you may not need the larger capacity. I'd go big tho if reasonable for you. You can fab mobile bases in your metal shop and move machines to max out your 20x20 space. If you haven't poured your floor yet, consider in floor radiant heating. Best choice so far for my shop "equipment". Good luck and have fun shopping.

[Keith Weber]

Regarding your 20x20 planned space, remember to consider your infeed and outfeed requirements. It depends on what you're building, and what you might be building in the future. A lot of lumber comes in 12' lengths. If you're building boxes and small tables, then you can always cut them down first, but if you want to make a lot of trim for a house, then you need a lot of room for the infeed and outfeed (roughly 2 times the lumber length plus 2 feet, as a minimum. You mentioned having a door for the TS, but also consider that the jointer, planer, shaper, and possibly a bandsaw can also need this same floorspace requirement. Are you going to want to move these machines in front of the door every time you want to use them on a long piece? Just something to consider.

My former basement shop was a 650 sq. ft. L-shaped layout with a limited straight of 28 feet. It was problematic for me when I was making miles of trim for the house. My new shop is slightly smaller (about 550 sq. ft.), but it's about 11.5 x 48, so I have lots of room for the longer stuff. I like it soooo much better. Ideally, I wish I had 14' of width to allow for two lengthwise walkways instead of just one, but as a tool junkie, I'm sure I'd soon fill that to capacity as well.

[Daniel McPherson]

I looked at the prices on the Grizzly line. I am under the impression that you get a lot more bang for your buck with Grizzly vs Jet or Powermatic because they sell direct and not through distributors. Is this correct?

[Mike Schuch]

My 40 x 40 shop is divided right down the middle with wood working on one side and metal working / auto working on the other. I wish my woodworking side was bigger and I could live with a bit smaller metal working side. I would recommend not going any smaller than 20 x 40 for a wood working shop since you have the space. A seperate segergated finishing room would also be very nice to have. Depending on the auto work you do it could serve multi-functions for finishes and paint!

I have a 15" Taiwanese planer and a 8" Taiwanese jointer. Even though the jointer is probably the most used machine in my shop I haven't had a need for bigger than 8". I spent 25 years with a harbor freight 6" jointer and got along quite well... I love having the 8 jointer now though. Jointers are relatively simple beasts... so simple even Harbor Freight made decent ones for cheap!

I would put my money into other machines instead of a jointer and planer. I would love to have a good sliding table table saw with a scoring blade! I really like my sliding table shaper but what really made me fall in love with it was when I added the 1 hp stock feeder to it. All that setup and trying to keep the perfect feed rate pushing stock through the shaper is gone now... the power feeder does it all for me.

I learned wood working from my father on his Delta turret arm radial arm saw. As such my 16" Redstar radial arm saw gets much more use than either of my cabinet table saws. But I believe many others favor their table saws over a radial arm saw.

A drill press is also a handy wood working tool to have. And I would definitely recommend not using your metal working drill press for wood. Way too messy and way to easy to ruin a good board with cutting oil. You don't need as much of a drill press for wood working as you do for metal working... although bigger is always better.

[Lee Reep]

Mike,

Dittos on a RAS. Mine was the first major power tool I bought in 1975. That is still my "go to" saw for most work. My table saw is just for ripping. Hard to not favor your first saw that enabled you to make so much. After 40 years I've become pretty accustomed to that saw.

[John Sanford]

Get the biggest jointer you can afford, then get a planer that's as big or bigger. You can get a Hammer A3-41, which is a 16" Jointer/Planer for @ $6,300, plus accessories & shipping (A&S). The MiniMax FS41 Classic is $6,795. That's list, you can likely make some sort of deal if they're on sale, you're a good negotiator, etc.

Or you can get a Grizzly 16" Jointer for $4,350 + A&S, and a 20" Planer for $1,929.

Those are new prices. Of course, used prices will be less, but they may be more difficult to find. Prices for Jet and Powermatic machines will be higher than the Grizzlies and Baleigh, but less than the Euro machines.

All that said, I would recommend that you get used Asian/North American machines to start. Get an 8" jointer and 15"-20" planer, used, or perhaps a 12" j/p combo. Why? Because you're starting off, and dropping big coin seems unwise. It's harder to lose money when you buy used machines, so whether you decide that woodworking really isn't for you, or you determine that you want to dive in deeper, you can sell usually used machines for 80-150% of what you paid for them. That's unlikely to happen with machines you bought new. Now, I realize you'd prefer to avoid the upgrade path, and that's a legitimate perspective. I'm not suggesting you start with a 6" jointer and lunchbox planer, then upgrade to 8" jointer, then 12" or 16". No, just a single upgrade. If you really don't want that path though, then commit to a 12" or 16" jointer up front. A big jointer is more difficult to find on the used market than a 20"+ planer, so if the 5-6k is a hard limit, and you want separates, I'd get a 16" jointer and a used planer rather than compromise on the jointer size.

In truth, were it me, I'd reach deep and get either the above Hammer or Minimax, or be patient and get a comparable Euro machine used. I got my Minimax FS30 (12") jointer/planer for $1,200. They go new for about $5,300.

[Rod Sheridan]

You'll never regret buying the combo machine, as it will give you same size jointer as the planer.

It's really nice to have a 12 or 16" jointer.

I went from an 8" jointer to the 12" combo and couldn't be happier.

Regards, Rod.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I went from an 8" jointer to the 12" combo and couldn't be happier.



Brand / model?

[Rod Sheridan]

Brand / model?

I went from a General to a Hammer A3-31.............Rod.

[Andrew Joiner]

Andrew - You asked what I am going to build. Let me explain my experience with welding, that may help. I had an item at my house break and thought, "Crap, well lets go buy a entry level machine so I can fix it, then I will have a welder on the off chance I ever use it." Well, that was four years ago. I have since had to buy and re-buy as I upgraded all my equipment once I realized I had a passion for fabrication that makes it so my wife drags me out of the shop each night. So at this point I want to make a bunch of shelving and cabinets for my welding, automotive, fabrication shop. But, I know how I am and five years from now I will probably be completely addicted to woodworking. Especially since the people I know who do both metal and wood tend to prefer wood. So the short answer is, "I'm not quite sure I know what I want to build, but I want to get tools that will allow me to build most anything without having to sell and repurchase for more capacity etc."

I don't know if that helps or not.

I understand needing to check each machine once it is received. I am sure that there are somethings that if out of spec are easy fixes and others that are huge fundamental issues. (Replace a bearing vs an improperly machined cast iron top) I would prefer to not have to monkey with any "fixes"

Good idea to start with the shop cabinets. I would recommend plywood rather than solid wood for that. Do you have a source for rough hardwood? If not a jointer and planer can be put off for now. Is money no object? Do you have a helper? For a one man shop a vertical panel saw is ideal. The Milwaukee is about $1,300 shipped.

If you buy new machines test them right away. If the tops aren't flat (rare) the seller will send new ones. Bearings(very rare) are harder to replace and you might want to send the machine back.

[Andrew Joiner]

I looked at the prices on the Grizzly line. I am under the impression that you get a lot more bang for your buck with Grizzly vs Jet or Powermatic because they sell direct and not through distributors. Is this correct?

I would agree. Many woodworkers here have had good Grizzly experience. I'd say they rate high for value and performance.
With that in mind you will find a ton of different opinions here. I've seen many woodworkers do incredible work with low cost tools. From Harbor Freight on up they all have "gems". Gems are tools that work well despite cost. If it's a low cost gem you get more value or more for your money.

Even if money is no object it makes sense to start simple. Go to a Borg. That's code here for Lowes, Home Depot and Menards type places. Find out the return policy. Buy a few basic tools. Go home and try them out. You can cut 4x8 sheets on a cheap table saw with help, and the right blade. Infeed and outfeed support tables will help tremendously.
If your by yourself google "homemade track saw".

[Erik Christensen]

been there & done that - good luck with your search. I think grizzly offers the best 'entry' tool for most categories (8" jointer, 15" planer, etc) - from there you can move up in price - more $$ 'usually' gets more features/precision and often increased durability. 3/4 of my major tools are grizzly green and every one was purchased with the idea "if I wear it out/out grow it; I must need something better" - after 5+ years I have concluded that most of them will last longer than I will.

commercial shops can run machines for hours a day - as a weekend hobbyist you might run your planer a couple of hours a month on average - why pay for durability that you will never in a dozen lifetimes ever need?

[Marty Tippin]

I've got the Grizzly 8" jointer and 15" planer, both with helical cutter heads and find they're very capable and good quality tools. I did have a pretty major wreck with my planer the other day - look for my post about "an expensive Friday the 13th lesson" for details. Not really a knock on the helical cutter heads at all, but you should know going in that the carbide insert knives are expensive to replace when they break.

You'll need a good dust collection system regardless of what brand of tools you purchase - the planer produces the vast majority of shavings in my shop and that probably holds true in most shops. I'm still using a portable Grizzly DC at the moment, but every time I have to move the hose from one machine to another, I get a little closer to buying a cyclone and permanent ducting...

If you're planning your "once and forever" woodworking setup, you should include a cyclone dust collector *and* the cost of duct work in your plans -- you can easily spend more on DC than on several large power tools...

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Marty Tippin;2380897]
You'll need a good dust collection system regardless of what brand of tools you purchase - the planer produces the vast majority of shavings in my shop and that probably holds true in most shops.
QUOTE]

That's certainly true Marty, in fact if you're dimensioning 4/4 rough to 3/4 finished you're converting 25% of your material to shavings..........Rod.

[Peter Kelly]

you can easily spend more on DC than on several large power tools...You can easily spend more on ducting than the collector itself too. Certainly worth the investment though.

[Mike Heidrick]

Lots of great advice here. Many Asian PM machines are made in the same factory as Grizzly so consider that.

12" jointer is super nice and you typically get nice long infeed and out feed tables on standalone 12" jointers.

I have a 20" planer with segmented infeed rollers - love that feature.

I have not had the reason to upgrade either machine to a byrd but maybe someday I will. For now my straight knives work amazing.

These are very heavy machines. Make sure you can deal with heavy machinery if you go down this route.

[glenn bradley]

The one thing people always seem to find out later is that the FIRST tool they should have bought was their dust collector. Everything else comes after that. JMHO.

[scott spencer]

I looked at the prices on the Grizzly line. I am under the impression that you get a lot more bang for your buck with Grizzly vs Jet or Powermatic because they sell direct and not through distributors. Is this correct?

No dealer markup, and shorter warranty are the primary reasons Grizzly can sell for less. You have to be willing to be your own middle man, but otherwise the quality is quite good. Jet makes some good machines, but I'm not convinced that they offer much better quality (if any) for the price difference.

[Peter Aeschliman]

My take...

I have never understood why people buy 8" jointers and big planers. When you mill rough lumber, you will be limited to your smallest of those two machines.

Although I'm always conscious of space, I don't think the decision of whether to buy a combo machine is purely about space-savings. I decided to buy a combo machine because I wanted to be able to run the same sized workpieces through my jointer as I do on my planer, and I wanted to be able to work with stock much wider than 8", as lots of rough lumber comes wider than 8". I also decided that I wanted a spiral cutter-head to reduce setup time and dealing with tear-out. I'd rather do woodworking than fidget with machines.

The cost of a separate large jointer and large planer both with spiral cutterheads was way over my budget. But since a combo machine uses one motor and one cutterhead, it was more economical to get a combo machine to get the features and functionality I wanted. I ended up buying a 10" Jointer/Planer combo from Laguna Tools. That was a number of years ago. I was trading up from a 6" jointer and a 15" planer and it completely changed the enjoyment of my hobby (which is the point of it all, right?).

I was younger at the time and my hobby budget was smaller. Now that I have more disposable income, I lust for the Hammer A3-31... but have upgrades that are higher on the priority list.

But it sounds to me like you have a healthy budget and you clearly don't want to waste money on machines you will later replace. Also, if your shop is 20x20 (400 sqft), I think you will eventually find that you're tight on space if you fill your shop with the typical WW machinery. That is a totally workable shop size, but don't forget about the open space needed to move materials around and build big projects like dining tables.

So, all told, my recommendation is to spend your ~$6k Jointer and Planer budget on a good european combo J/P machine. You will maximize your functionality and accuracy for the money, and give yourself more shop layout options... and you will never have upgrade lust.

You of course will need good dust collection, a table saw, maybe a bandsaw, lots of hand tools, etc etc, the list goes on. But I'm staying focused on jointers and planers. ;-)

[Kent A Bathurst]

The one thing people always seem to find out later is that the FIRST tool they should have bought was their dust collector. Everything else comes after that. JMHO.

Another yeahbut...........

Glenn, yeah, you are correct, but.........ya gots to know what type sof machines you will be pulling from, and what their dia & cfm requirements will be.

Admittedly, most will fall within a certain range, but still.............

And - I agree with you entirely - no need to start throwing Old Testament amounts of shavings and dust if you don't have a method in place to deal with that plague of locusts. The volumes can be pretty impressive.

[Peter Kelly]

No dealer markup, and shorter warranty are the primary reasons Grizzly can sell for less. You have to be willing to be your own middle man, but otherwise the quality is quite good. Jet makes some good machines, but I'm not convinced that they offer much better quality (if any) for the price difference.Grizzly is actually the middle man, just not a third-party. Their machines are sourced from Chiu Ting Machinery and others on the mainland. http://www.geetech.com.tw/index.php/en/strategic-partenrship-e

[Daniel McPherson]

I changed the layout of the floor plan. It is now going to be approx 22X28 with 9' ceilings. Remember that raw materials don't have to be stored in that space and neither. It seems like I should go with a really high quality J/P at this point. FYI I just bought a crapload of Festool stuff. Track saw, 2 routers, 2 sanders, MFT table, Domino etc, dust extractor. So, for dust collection it looks like I will need it for my table saw, J/P combo and ????.

The powermatic stuff is on sale right now, should I be looking at their dust collection systems or someone else like Oneida?

[Kent A Bathurst]

........... a crapload of Festool stuff...............

Couldn't have said it better myself............ :p :p Where you gonna store the 17 Systainers?

Sorry - just a guy that resists the whole Green Kool-Aid schtick. You'll be very happy with that gear - it is definitely top quality - hands down.

Except the MFT table - that seems like marketing took over, as opposed to common sense, but not my problem - never heard feedback good enough to warrant the $$.........seems a bit mickey-mouse cheesy to me. But - to each his own - clear sailing and godspeed.



.The powermatic stuff is on sale right now, should I be looking at their dust collection systems or someone else like Oneida?

Daniel - it is like the other machinery decisions you have made, IMO, and your direction seems pretty clear. So, my insight is this:

Buy the PM, and spend the next few years thinking about the Oneida you did not buy, or buy the Oneida and never look back. Keep in mind the $$ for piping a cyclone - that is non-trivial. But - Oneida will design the whole shebang for you, which is a good thing.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I changed the layout of the floor plan. It is now going to be approx 22X28 with 9' ceilings. Remember that raw materials don't have to be stored in that space and neither. It seems like I should go with a really high quality J/P at this point. FYI I just bought a crapload of Festool stuff. Track saw, 2 routers, 2 sanders, MFT table, Domino etc, dust extractor. So, for dust collection it looks like I will need it for my table saw, J/P combo and ????.

The powermatic stuff is on sale right now, should I be looking at their dust collection systems or someone else like Oneida?

Holy smokes. I like the cut of your jib! You're wasting no time. There's a lot to know about dust collection, so do your research. The hardcore dust collection nuts around here typically go with Clear Vue cyclones. Google Bill Pentz and prepare to spend 10 hours reading!

As for the table saw... Look really hard at the European sliding table saws. It took me a few years into my hobby before I understood what all of the fuss was about regarding sliding table saws. But now I really wish I had one! I have a sawstop with a sliding table attachment, which is great... But it's just not as good as a Euro slider in terms of function imho.

[Marty Tippin]

If you can afford all that Festool stuff, you can probably afford the Hammer combo machine and an Oneida cyclone.

Not sure why you're worrying about nickles and dimes when you're dropping Benjamins like they're going out of style...

[John Sanford]

I changed the layout of the floor plan. It is now going to be approx 22X28 with 9' ceilings. Remember that raw materials don't have to be stored in that space and neither. It seems like I should go with a really high quality J/P at this point. FYI I just bought a crapload of Festool stuff. Track saw, 2 routers, 2 sanders, MFT table, Domino etc, dust extractor. So, for dust collection it looks like I will need it for my table saw, J/P combo and ????.

The powermatic stuff is on sale right now, should I be looking at their dust collection systems or someone else like Oneida?

Go cyclonic. Oneida or Clear Vue. Before you get your system, decide on the size planer you're going to get. The planer and, if you truly go down the termite hole, drum/wide belt sander are going to be the tools that define your dust collection needs. Any dust collector that can handle those two will easily handle everything else in your shop, but things don't go the other way.

[glenn bradley]

to deal with that plague of locusts.

What a great visual! I am going to be hearing that in my head every time I see the chips flying from now on :D.

As to whether to go with a cyclone or not, this depends on your exhaust scenario. If you have to exhaust your return air into your work area, you need it well filtered. To keep fine filters clean, you need a cyclone. If you can exhaust outside you can get a lot more air movement for a lot less cost. Just remember that 1500 CFM of air going out of the shop needs 1500 CFM coming back in without resistance ;-) You local weather conditions may control this decision as well.

[Daniel McPherson]

If you have an Oneida system does it eliminate the need for one of the ceiling mounted square air cleaners or is that still needed for the dust the dust collection system didn't catch?

It seems like a 16" J/P is what I will end up getting. How much more do you spend when you go from Hammer to Minimax to Feldor and is it worth it?

[Jim Andrew]

I have a Grizzly 12 " jointer, G0609, with helical cutter, and a G0453 px 15" planer, both of which i enjoy using, reasonable priced machines, main complaints you read about are the hinges on combo machines limiting the machines accuracy. You might look at the Hammer K3 winner table saws. I have a 79x48, awesome saw. Would limit my search of cyclone units to 3hp or larger. And Ace Hardware stocks 26 gauge snaplock pipe , elbows, Y's etc, best prices in my area.

[Daniel McPherson]

I hadn't heard that about combo machines not being as accurate. How bad is it?

[Daniel McPherson]

So if my shop is 22X28' and I got a J/P would that space be to small to add a sliding table saw in the future? My understanding is the sliding TS requires a lot more room. Or is it pretty similar to what a cabinet saw requires when you factor infeed and out feed areas?

[Julie Moriarty]

I am starting out in woodworking but one thing I learned from welding(which I also do) is that I can't stand buying something then later wishing I hadn't cheaped out and settled for a tool that wasn't the best I could afford.

My shop is being built and will house my auto, welding/fab and woodworking. It is 40X64 in size but I haven't decided how much to devote to woodworking. I am thinking approx 20X20 for the woodworking portion. This space does NOT count wood storage as I can house the wood in an a separate area. In addition to run the table saw I can slide the door open that separates the wood area from the welding/fab so I can feed boards onto the table saw. I can also do glue ups and finishing in a different section of the shop in the welding/fab bay. All power is single phase.

So...
I have been trying to figure out what to do for a jointer and a planer. I believe (tell me if I am wrong) that I have enough room for separate tools. I have been googling for a week straight trying to figure out what to get. Hammer? Minimax? Powermatic? Jet? It is really overwhelming.

I want to get the best tools I can afford. I really don't want to have to go through the tool and double check everything to make sure it is square/flat (maybe there is no way getting around this). So what unit/units should I buy? What features should I make sure they have?

I would ask how much of a perfectionist you are? If you have little tolerance for tools not doing the job you expect them to do and your expectations are high, then you need better quality tools. As you gain woodworking experience, like anything else, you discover all sorts of little things about working with wood that you can only learn by doing. It's the same with woodworking tools. One may look the same as another but until you get them in your hand, you won't really know what suits you best.

My first wood tool was a Craftsman circular saw I bought in the 70's. It wasn't until about 10 years later I bought a B&D 8" portable table saw. I thought I had arrived. When I could afford something better, some 13 years later, I bought a 10" Delta contractor's saw. I still have that today but I'd prefer a good quality cabinet saw but I can't justify the expense now. But I don't skimp on saw blades and buy Forrest or the better Freud blades. Freud blades are great when they are really sharp but I find replacing them preferable because they keep coming out with new blades. The Forrest blades I send back to Forrest for sharpening. I have spares for the ones I use all the time. Good blades do a lot for not-so-good saws.

When I got more serious about woodworking, about 5-6 years ago, I realized the need for good hand tools. I went to Lie-Nielsen and have never been disappointed. And I'm one of those perfectionists who most people can't understand. I have a full set of L-N chisels, including mortise chisels, and 8 of their block and bench planes and a few specialty planes. All purchases I have never regretted. It's just a pleasure working with them.

I had a 5" Bosch RO sander for about 20 years but when I found myself sanding more and more, I took a chance on Festool and purchased a RO sander and CT-26 dust collector. That turned out to be the best decision I had made to date. I now own three other Festool sanders and I can justify the cost because the dust collection is so efficient my health benefits from it. Festool is expensive but their tools work perfectly. The only complaint I've ever heard about Festool is the price.

When I needed some rasps for shaping guitar necks, I went to Auriou. I had Nicholson and a few other brands but the Auriou rasps blew them away. I don't even use the other rasps anymore. You wouldn't think it makes that much difference being hand stitched, but it does.

These are all tools I love to pick up and use. They keep me going when the work becomes tiresome. And they keep drawing me back, this, probably long after I would have walked away and said I'm too old to be doing this stuff.

[Daniel McPherson]

Julie - You asked if I am a perfectionist. When I was first married I didn't have two pennies to rub together, I literally lived in my car for 3 months while I started my business, but even then I really hated poor quality tools that disappoint. I would rather live in a bare room with one nice quality object in it then a room full of compromises.

One question I have is since I have a Festool track saw with parallel guides would my best course be to get a 16" J/P and a small sliding TS? Use the Festool to breakdown large sheets then use the sliding TS to further dimension the sheets? Would I be to limited on working with lumber with this set up? If so, would that mean I should get a cabinet saw instead?

[David Kumm]

A short stroke slider is a pretty handy machine if you do furniture work and have another way to break down sheet goods. There are a few made today but few less than in the old days when a short stroke was a staple of the shop.307742307743 Here are a couple of mine. 36" stroke. Old but so am I. Dave

[Julie Moriarty]

One question I have is since I have a Festool track saw with parallel guides would my best course be to get a 16" J/P and a small sliding TS? Use the Festool to breakdown large sheets then use the sliding TS to further dimension the sheets? Would I be to limited on working with lumber with this set up? If so, would that mean I should get a cabinet saw instead?

To me, Dan, it makes perfect sense to couple a track saw with a sliding TS, unless you have loads of room in the workshop that you'll never use otherwise. If I replaced my old Delta TS (which has a sliding table attached on the left side) I'd go with a Hammer or Felder sliding TS, no question. And I'd definitely invest in the outriggers for the sliding table. I believe I could do more with that than I can my existing setup. Add the Festool track saw & rails and I can't see ever needing a cabinet saw.

If you threw in the Hammer A3 41 into the mix, well, I can't imagine a better upgrade to what I have unless it was all Felder equipment. But I'd upgrade the J/P to their Silent Power spiral cutting head. I work with highly figured woods (it's an addiction) and I often have to take the boards to the drum sander to plan them down. Straight blade cutters are hard on figured wood.

The only thing that would complete my upgrade would be a bandsaw that can resaw to the 16" range. I have a 16" wide slab of figured bubinga that has been sitting in my shop for years. I had a 13" wide slab of figured sapele too (I turned part of it into a guitar body) that was also sitting for years. Both, because after I bought them I realized the best use of the wood would come in the form of a veneer. But I couldn't rip them to fit my bandsaw. It just seemed wrong! So they sat.

Oh, I forgot, by losing my Delta TS I also lose my router table. So I'd have to get something to replace that too. It never ends... :rolleyes:

[John Sanford]

So if my shop is 22X28' and I got a J/P would that space be to small to add a sliding table saw in the future? My understanding is the sliding TS requires a lot more room. Or is it pretty similar to what a cabinet saw requires when you factor infeed and out feed areas?

It's pretty similar. Which is more convenient really depends on how you set up. If you have a cabinet saw with big honkin' outfeed tables that are 8' deep, then that takes up more room, but it's always there ready for ya. Make those outfeeds mobile, and less room. With a slider, the in/outfeed areas aren't permanently occupied by something, whereas with cabinet saws some folks (usually commercial shops) set up their outfeed permanently. If you can set things up so that you can easily open up the infeed and outfeed areas when you need them, then space isn't as much of an issue. As an example, set your saw up within 4' of the garage door. Usually you don't need more than 4' of in/outfeed, but if you do, just open the garage door. Use a mobile assembly table/secondary workbench as an outfeed for a cabinet saw, or just have it in the outfeed zone of a slider and move it when you need the full slider stroke.

Essentially, the size of your workpiece dictates the infeed and outfeed areas. Everything else is just an answer to the question : "how much of this space do you want to take up permanently for convenience's sake." The tracksaw, because you 're moving the tool not the workpiece, has the minimum possible footprint short of using a light saber.

[Rod Sheridan]

If you have an Oneida system does it eliminate the need for one of the ceiling mounted square air cleaners or is that still needed for the dust the dust collection system didn't catch?

It seems like a 16" J/P is what I will end up getting. How much more do you spend when you go from Hammer to Minimax to Feldor and is it worth it?

Hi, yes, good dust collection eliminates the need for an air cleaner.

If the dust has already made it into the shop air, you need to wear a respirator to keep it out of your lungs, no fun at all.

I didn't think the jump from hammer to Felder to Felder was worth it for me. 8 years later my opinion hasn't changed.......Rod.

[Peter Kelly]

Julie - You asked if I am a perfectionist. When I was first married I didn't have two pennies to rub together, I literally lived in my car for 3 months while I started my business, but even then I really hated poor quality tools that disappoint. I would rather live in a bare room with one nice quality object in it then a room full of compromises.

One question I have is since I have a Festool track saw with parallel guides would my best course be to get a 16" J/P and a small sliding TS? Use the Festool to breakdown large sheets then use the sliding TS to further dimension the sheets? Would I be to limited on working with lumber with this set up? If so, would that mean I should get a cabinet saw instead?Among other tools, I have a 16" J/P and 5' slider in my 15'x25' shop. It's a little cramped but mostly works out ok if I break plywood sheets down with the track saw and remove the saw outrigger when not in use. I wouldn't ever go back to a cabinet-type saw fyi.

If my space was more square than rectangular, I probably would have purchased a saw/shaper/jointer/planer and located it closer to the center of the room.

307764307765

[Peter Aeschliman]

One question I have is since I have a Festool track saw with parallel guides would my best course be to get a 16" J/P and a small sliding TS? Use the Festool to breakdown large sheets then use the sliding TS to further dimension the sheets? Would I be to limited on working with lumber with this set up? If so, would that mean I should get a cabinet saw instead?

This is precisely what I would recommend. The only downside of a medium sized slider is that you won't be able to use the slider for rip cuts on long workpieces, which means you will need to use the rip fence for those cuts. The parallel guides on the track saw will do your parallel cuts fine, but it's so much faster and easier to use the table saw.

I point this out because hand-fed rip cuts using the rip fence are the most dangerous kind of cut to make on the table saw. If you're new to woodworking, it might be a little difficult for me to convey in writing... but the longer format style sliders (The huge really expensive ones) have more stroke in the sliding table mechanism. For a rough sawn board that you want to put one straight edge on, you can attach a "ripping shoe" at the far end of the sliding table, push the end of your workpiece into it to hold it down, and hold the other end and feed your work through the blade. This establishes one straight edge.

Then you have one of two choices. You can come up with a fancy rigging on your sliding table that will allow you to use the sliding table to make your parallel rip cut (this is the safest method, but it requires your sliding table to slide at least as far as your workpiece is long), or you can do the traditional north american style cut where you don't use the sliding table and instead use the rip fence and feed by hand (less safe, but really easy and quick).

One thing though, is that the euro saws are usually equipped with extruded aluminum fences which can be pulled back toward the operator, so that the end of the fence is only slightly past the tooth gullets at the front of the blade. This eliminates the pinch zone between the fence and blade. When a workpiece gets pinched, the teeth at the back of the blade can catch the workpiece and throw it back in your face (DAMHIKT)...

So, in my mind, the huge sliding tables are ideal in the sense that you really don't need a rip fence for the vast majority of your cuts, which makes them the safest and most functional saws on the market. The more you start using the rip fence, the less safe the saw is and the more a sawstop might make more sense for you. Unfortunately Sawstop doesn't make a true sliding table saw, which is a major bummer IMHO.

Hope that helps!

[John Sanford]

Among other tools, I have a 16" J/P and 5' slider in my 15'x25' shop. It's a little cramped but mostly works out ok if I break plywood sheets down with the track saw and remove the saw outrigger when not in use. I wouldn't ever go back to a cabinet-type saw fyi.
307764307765

Peter,

How quick is removing/installing the outrigger? How much do you use the extension to the right of the blade? Last, have you done a review of the SC2? I just came across that, and am quite intrigued. A 4'-7'(max) slider seems about right for my purposes, and I may go that direction rather than SS. May.

[Jim Matthews]

If you're brand new, with no experience in a working shop
consider taking an introductory course in machine woodworking.

You'll be able to see which machines appeal to you.

You'll take a beating on resale of used tools, regardless of condition.

It's akin to going on a ski vacation, buying all new gear and skipping the lesson.

[Peter Kelly]

Peter,

How quick is removing/installing the outrigger? How much do you use the extension to the right of the blade? Last, have you done a review of the SC2? I just came across that, and am quite intrigued. A 4'-7'(max) slider seems about right for my purposes, and I may go that direction rather than SS. May.Re-installing the outrigger and getting it perfectly squared up takes a little time but it isn't horrible. I've actually got a shorter miter fence that takes up a bit less space to the left of the blade. The setup is similar to this: http://benchmark.20m.com/tools/HammerB3/B3IncraMiterFence/b3_incramiterfenceinstall.html

If I had to re-buy, I'd get the narrower rip fence / extension table. I don't find myself using the width much beyond 30" (comes with a 50").

I haven't done a review but the he SC2 is a great little saw and I'm very pleased with it. I'd only trade it for a larger SI 400 if I had the space.

[Rod Sheridan]

Re-installing the outrigger and getting it perfectly squared up takes a little time but it isn't horrible. I've actually got a shorter miter fence that takes up a bit less space to the left of the blade. The setup is similar to this: http://benchmark.20m.com/tools/HammerB3/B3IncraMiterFence/b3_incramiterfenceinstall.html

If I had to re-buy, I'd get the narrower rip fence / extension table. I don't find myself using the width much beyond 30" (comes with a 50").

I haven't done a review but the he SC2 is a great little saw and I'm very pleased with it. I'd only trade it for a larger SI 400 if I had the space.

Hi Peter, I'm unsure of what you mean by having to re-square the outrigger?

I have a Hammer B3 and the outrigger goes on and off the saw without re-adjustment.

Thanks, Rod.

[Peter Kelly]

Unfortunately, my shop is the lower level of a barn on my parent's property about 120 miles from where I live. When I'm not there, my dad and two younger brothers also use the machines. I'd say that they're opinion of "square" is not exactly the same as mine so I use the 5-cut method to set the outrigger fence up every time I re-install the fence.

If I were the exclusive user of the shop, things would be different. Maybe I'll change the lock...

[Andrew Joiner]

Unfortunately, my shop is the lower level of a barn on my parent's property about 120 miles from where I live. When I'm not there, my dad and two younger brothers also use the machines. I'd say that they're opinion of "square" is not exactly the same as mine so I use the 5-cut method to set the outrigger fence up every time I re-install the fence.

If I were the exclusive user of the shop, things would be different. Maybe I'll change the lock...

Peter. I don't know why, but for some reason when I read your posts I hear it in Ron Swanson's voice:).

[Daniel McPherson]

Hey guys, FYI, I am not totally new to woodworking. I built a bird house in Scouts when I was 11. :)

Really though, here is what I am envisioning:

22'X28' shop. Bulk wood stored in a different building. Maybe a small rack that holds about a projects worth of wood in the shop.

4'x8' table in the room for assembly. I can put a piece of pink foam board on it to run my Festool track saw on for breaking down large boards. Along one wall will be my Festool Kapex and sustainers with sanders etc.

A 16" combo J/P with a separate sliding TS (not a combo unit)

I have a full size Ellis drill press in my metal shop but I heard I shouldn't mix the two hobbies on it because it may get metal shavings and oil on my wood. So here are my questions:

Do I really need a DP for woodworking? I have hand drills and I COULD clean the Ellis DP up if it was only an occasional need with wood.
What size sliding TS should I be looking at with this setup?

Other than a dust system is there something else I need to buy in the way of major machines.

Also, one little point to keep in mind. I am extremely limited on time. I have 7 kids, a farm with a ton of animals etc so when I get time to pursue my hobbies I want it to be exactly what I want. I don't like feeling like I compromised or am being held back by not having a piece of equipment I needed to make the project go smoothly so I want to do it right. Fortunatly my wife lets me spend the money I get from bailing hay in the middle of the night on whatever tools I want.

[Alan Lightstone]

Hi, yes, good dust collection eliminates the need for an air cleaner.

If the dust has already made it into the shop air, you need to wear a respirator to keep it out of your lungs, no fun at all.



I strongly disagree. I definitely feel you need both. I have a Dylos particle counter, which shows how much airborne dust there is. I also have a 5HP Oneida cyclone with large piping to most machines - In other words, fairly serious dust collection to each tool.

That being said, it's amazing how high the particle count gets after things like sanding, using the table saw, etc...

Yes you need to wear a respirator mask (most people like the 3M 7500 series - cheap and very effective), but I can measure that the particle count in my workshop can be brought rapidly back to safe levels with an overhead air cleaner. If I don't turn it on, it takes quite some time until the particles settle, and walking around will just stir them up again.

So, I think having both a good dust collector (think Oneida or Clearvue cyclone) and an overhead air cleaner like the Jet (or other similar models) is an important two pronged approach to saving your lungs.

[Jim Matthews]

Seven kids?

Consider handtool woodworking, instead.
The satisfactions from working with wood
are more immediate when you work by hand.

You'll be slower, but you'll keep money in your pocket,
rather than have expensive machines depreciating
in your shop.

At the very least have a browse of Jim Tolpin's
"The new traditional woodworker" for an overview
of how to farm the donkey work out.

(I buy my lumber nearly dressed to the desired thickness - no jointer or planer needed.)

[Rod Sheridan]

I strongly disagree. I definitely feel you need both. I have a Dylos particle counter, which shows how much airborne dust there is. I also have a 5HP Oneida cyclone with large piping to most machines - In other words, fairly serious dust collection to each tool.

That being said, it's amazing how high the particle count gets after things like sanding, using the table saw, etc...

Yes you need to wear a respirator mask (most people like the 3M 7500 series - cheap and very effective), but I can measure that the particle count in my workshop can be brought rapidly back to safe levels with an overhead air cleaner. If I don't turn it on, it takes quite some time until the particles settle, and walking around will just stir them up again.

So, I think having both a good dust collector (think Oneida or Clearvue cyclone) and an overhead air cleaner like the Jet (or other similar models) is an important two pronged approach to saving your lungs.

Hi, I also have a Dylos particle counter and used it to modify some of my machines to have good dust capture. I simply don't want to have to wear a respirator, or have the dust get into my house, so I concentrated on collecting it at the source.

Tablesaws will absolutely require over the blade collection, and my bandsaw was one of the worst machines.

If you let the dust get into the air you've lost the battle.

Your cyclone will clean the shop air as well as collect from the individual machines..............Regards, Rod.

[Jim Dwight]

One thing I think my drill press is nearly indispensable for is drilling holes for European hinges on doors for cabinets. There are jigs that would let you do that with a hand drill, I think, however.

I don't look at building some thing for the shop as much different from building a furniture or home project. It is still shop time where I get the satisfaction of completing something. I don't like finishing as much as making sawdust so from that aspect I like shop projects more. I don't know how you get to know this kind of thing before you have a shop and use it some. I will use my drill press, I hope, on Saturday, possibly Friday night or tonight, to drill some holes in little blocks of wood, plastic, and aluminum to make a parallel jig for my DeWalt tracksaw. If I has a Festool track saw, I could spend ~$250 for the jig but I enjoy doing things the more difficult and cheaper way sometimes. That kind of logic doesn't sound like that is where you are at.

If that is correct, then it will take you down the more expensive path you appear to have started with your Festool purchases. A sliding table saw could fit in. But with the track saw, I question whether you still need to cut up most or all of a sheet of plywood on it. I think it is safer and easier to do that with a tracksaw. I had a saw with 60 inch rip capacity but plan to stay with a 30 inch capacity saw now that I have the tracksaw. That frees up space in the shop for other tools and for projects.

You may want to look at a MFT style worksurface for your 4x8 table. I haven't built mine yet but that is on my list of projects. If you don't want to build things for the shop, you could get a MFT - but they don't come that large. There is a guy with a thread on the Festool forum selling a jib where you use pegboard and his router base to make a MFT top of essentially unlimited size - would allow you to have a 4x8 MFT - he has one that wide but not quite that long.

If you are into speed and like Festools, I would definitely have a Domino on the list. Maybe both sizes. Mortise and tenon joints are important to nice furniture and useful in cabinets. This looks like the quickest and easiest way to make them.

[Mike Tekin]

I agree with Jim and STRONGLY encourage you to take a furniture class where you can build something to get a feel for the craft. You will spend less than a grand, but you will walk out with skills and also get a feel for the machines in the class.

European machines are great, but I would think long and hard about combo machines if you have the space - nothing beats separate units for efficiency. However, if you go that route, definately stick with Felder/Hammer or MiniMax - precision is important here when holding settings for changing between functions. Second, remember that you don't need fancy European machines to make beautiful and functional furniture. As an example, go to Fine Woodworking and look at the shops of the contributing editors and editors online or other artists in your area for that matter. They don't have new fancy machines wall to wall in their shops. There is a mix of old and new, Grizzly and European, etc.

Wood moves, this isn't metal working, however if money is no object, then forgot about anything anyone told you and go full bore :).

[Jim Dwight]

I don't want to argue against a school but I never felt I had time for one and the only time I had one was in Jr. high. Mostly I've learned by reading and doing. Sometimes I learned the hard way and had to start over. But mostly my projects got used. I still have a lot to learn.

I started screwing softwood shelving board together and plugging the screw holes. Belt sander smoothed them up for finish. The first dresser had to have drawers which were wider in front than they were in back because the carcase wasn't square. But it worked and the second carcase was square. Latest dressers have had dovetailed drawers on all 4 corners - but machine cut dovetails. Only one kitchen so far but looking at doing another. Each of my kids have two complete bedroom sets from us all with dovetailed drawers and made of hardwoods. But it wasn't until the last 15 years or so that I've done this sort of work. It took me 15 years to get to this level.

I could have gotten there a lot quicker with a class or two, I'm sure.

[Jim Andrew]

Cool, another farmer on the creek. Do you have lots of trees on your farm? When I was looking at retiring from my town job, I decided I could afford to play with wood if I got my own bandmill. Have a lot more boards than I can probably use in 10 years now. But only have spent money on plywood. And I have built furniture for my daughter and grandkids, wife, nephew, and a few kitchens. Walnut really looks rich in your kitchen.

[Daniel McPherson]

The only trees we have on our farm is the orchard we planted and the landscaping. I live in Idaho, potato country. Flat, Flat, Flat.

So is the consensus get a 16" J/P and not worry about a sliding TS or DP for now? I think that is what I will most likely do. My upcoming projects right off the bat with be in order:

Sysports for my Festools
Cabinets for the entire shop. This will probably be about 40 lineal feet of cabinets
A small cabinet/counter for a bathroom
If after that I am feeling confident I will make a 15' cabinet for a mother in law house we have on our farm.

[Rich Riddle]

The only trees we have on our farm is the orchard we planted and the landscaping. I live in Idaho, potato country. Flat, Flat, Flat.

So is the consensus get a 16" J/P and not worry about a sliding TS or DP for now? I think that is what I will most likely do. My upcoming projects right off the bat with be in order:

Sysports for my Festools
Cabinets for the entire shop. This will probably be about 40 lineal feet of cabinets
A small cabinet/counter for a bathroom
If after that I am feeling confident I will make a 15' cabinet for a mother in law house we have on our farm.Hope you have the time for all those projects. If you multiply the amount you allocate by five or ten then you might come close to the actual amount of time it takes.

[John Sanford]

Hey guys, FYI, I am not totally new to woodworking. I built a bird house in Scouts when I was 11. :)

Really though, here is what I am envisioning:

22'X28' shop. Bulk wood stored in a different building. Maybe a small rack that holds about a projects worth of wood in the shop.

4'x8' table in the room for assembly. I can put a piece of pink foam board on it to run my Festool track saw on for breaking down large boards. Along one wall will be my Festool Kapex and sustainers with sanders etc. 4'x8' is larger than you need. Also, rather than a table, build it in such a way that it is a: mobile, and b: can be used for storage, or can easily have storage added later.


Do I really need a DP for woodworking? I have hand drills and I COULD clean the Ellis DP up if it was only an occasional need with wood. Yes. Hand drills lack both the power and the precision of a drill press. Again, almost anything can be done solely with handtools, or with portable power tools, but many thinks are simpler to get precision and accuracy with power tools, can go faster with power tools, etc.


What size sliding TS should I be looking at with this setup? Theoretically, you wouldn't need one at all. Because you have the track saw, large panel handling capability would be redundant, so you may want to look at one of the <50" slide models. There is, or at least was, a Laguna TSS (@ 50" slide) available up there in Idaho (Idaho Falls IIRC) recently, it may still be available, asking price was $3,500. It was posted on KSL. It's kinda a hybrid between an American cabinet saw with a Euro slider grafted on. Probably not as nice as the Hammer/Felder and MiniMax tools, but still Euro and likely nicer than the Asian tools.


Other than a dust system is there something else I need to buy in the way of major machines.Need? No. Depending on the type of projects you're going to do, a shaper and/or mortising machine may be very handy. If you decide to build a lot of pieces in the Arts & Craft/Prairie styles, a stout mortising machine will make life much easier. If you decide to do a lot of heavy edge profiles and such, then the shaper is in its element. Both can be done other ways though, so I'd simply make sure to have the space available if/when the time comes.


Also, one little point to keep in mind. I am extremely limited on time. I have 7 kids, a farm with a ton of animals etc so when I get time to pursue my hobbies I want it to be exactly what I want. I don't like feeling like I compromised or am being held back by not having a piece of equipment I needed to make the project go smoothly so I want to do it right. Fortunatly my wife lets me spend the money I get from bailing hay in the middle of the night on whatever tools I want.
Limited on time, 7 kids.

Sounds like you could really use a lathe. There are few better ways to get a quick fix of woodworking, they can be used to create a world of useful objects, they are one of the best ways to expose kids to woodworking, and they don't take up a lot of space.