Jonter/Planer Combo

[Patrick Walsh]

This has been discussed here. I think i have read through most all of it, along with anything i could find anywhere else on the interweb.

The topic jointer planer combo.

Hammer A3-31 or MiniMax FJ30. Silent power cutter head or Tersa?

My questions or inquiries go like this. I like most am inclined to think the build quality of the MiniMax machine is mildly superior.

On the other hand i did play with a Hammer A3 yesterday with the spiral cutter head and was very very impressed. That head is like a Ferrari! I ran some birdseye and mahogany through it and was like wow! Any irregularities i took care of with a quick pass of 220.

So the Tersa pro is ease of swapping blades. Spiral pro is finish quality for the most part. I have read and did see with my own two eyes on the wood i passed over the silent cutter head the very minor scalloping. Again 220 took care of it 1-2-3. I work in just about all hard figured wood. Think teak, birdseye, babinga so forth and so on. I almost never use anything soft or not figured. The silent cutter head left no tear out. My old Yates straight knife machine and Dewalt lunch box planer make a mess of the same material leaving major tear out!

I have read some stuff about people having problems with the tables on the Hammer machine not being flat. I found one complaint about the same on the MiniMax. So the question is to those who have now had the machines a while. Much of the info to be found is from years ago now. I wonder to these people how do you like your Hammer machine after having it a while. Have you had problems with the tables. Have you had problems with scalloping on the silent cutter head. If you have had problems how has dealing with Felder/Hammer been?

I generally like the MiniMax machine more but it cost $1100 more and that is without a spiral cutter head. If i upgrade that myself the machine is $2400 more. In the end if the machine is superior to the Hammer i am not worried about the $2500 as i plan to have the machine for many moons.

One thing other than fit and finish that i like about the MiniMax machine is the S/1 230 4.8 horse motor vrs the Hammers S/6 230 4.0 horse motor. As i understand it the Hammer motor only uses 40% of its horsepower while the minimax uses all 4.8. On the other hand the Felder or Hammer silent cutter head requires much less power to turn it than the Tersa or the comparable Byrd head.

Also has anyone experienced and problems with the MiniMax machine i should be aware of. I have read their customer service can be a nightmare. That is pretty scary as we all know sometimes machines show up and have problems right off the pallet. If you end up with a company that is not proactive and assuming all responsibility it can really stink!

Thank you all in advance for any insight you can offer. This is a big purchase for me.

i am also interested or really looking at buying the Felder RL 125 over the Onieda V3000. I recently read bad stuff about the filters clogging on the Felder machine. Anyone have any thoughts on that for me!

[Bill Adamsen]

If possible, compare the sound of the two you are considering with dust exhaust operating. My 16" has a four blade head (straight blades) and while it is pretty loud anyway, it just howls when the blast gate is opened (and dc is on). Important because it is the one tool that simply cannot be operated without dust collection. My 8" Powermatic would at least work without dust collection. Tersa blades are relatively inexpensive, typically come in a variety of flavors (carbide for instance) and are easy to change without making any jointer height adjustments. To my knowledge, none of the Euro machines support rabbeting, so if that is a requirement, look elsewhere.

[Chris Merriam]

Are you sure your pricing is accurate? I went through this a year ago and the hammer with spiral was roughly 4k, and the MM was 3400, but the price was going up soon to 3800ish I think.

one difference I didn't realize is the MM tables have to be lifted separately, and there is no spring assist like the hammer. Not a big deal just takes a second longer.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yup quoted $5300 plus $400 shipping on the MM FJ30 classic with the Tersa cutter head.

If the MiniMax was indeed the price you got quoted a year ago i would purchase it and upgrade the cutter myself without thinking twice about it.

[Patrick Walsh]

I wanna hear about problems with the Hammer tables not being flat.

That would be a big deal breaker on either machine for me. I'd be even more upset if the rep then told me to get lost and I was out of my mind for caring.

[Chris Merriam]

Hmm, you've said FJ30 twice now, I assumed the first time was a typo for FS30, but maybe we're talking different machines?

My FS30 tables have a hollow of about 3 thousands, hasn't seemed to have caused an issue yet.

[Patrick Walsh]

My bad FS30.

Hollow, explain please?

[Chris Merriam]

The tables aren't perfectly flat, they are dished/hollow/concave by about three thousandths in the middle of each table. So placing a straightedge from end to end, I can't fit a feeler gauge under the first and last five inches, but in between I can slip in a .003 gauge.

again, I haven't checked pricing in a year, but your MM quote seems too high. Have you checked with Erik Loza on the board here? He was my sales rep. You should send him a PM.

[Patrick Walsh]

I will do that thanks for the info.

all the info i can gather will help better make this decision.

[Jim Becker]

I have been absolutely satisfied with the Tersa cutting heads on my MM J/P and I've had it since about 2004. They are versatile, easy to change, easy to adjust to deal with a nick and do a great job. Skewing highly figured or "tough to surface" material at an angle on the wider jointer bed generally gives a very clean cut. I have never felt the need for a spiral head, although I'll certainly acknowledge that they are really nice.

Do pay attention to the dust collection requirements for these machines. Not optional and you don't want something that can't handle the profuse output of chips and dust from these great machines!

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm going to go with either the oneida V3000 or the Felder RL125.

To date i just let my old Yates jointer build a pile of chips under it and vac it up as i go. Same with my Dewalt luch box planer. I have set it up to a shop vac but its more of a pain than its worth so i normally just let it rip and dust out my shop in a major way.

Part of the motivation for this machine is to be done with all the dust. A better part of this last year was spent upgrading my old tools to Festools mostly motivated by dust collection. It started innocently with the TS 75 and a Carvex. I then got a Midi because the shop vac thing was getting old. I was so impressed with those purchases i moved on to a MFT/3 another MFT the CMS VL and the 1400 router. Again being floored by the dust collection i moved on to a Kapex the RO90 a DTS400 and CT36. I couldn't stand the hype over the TSX drill and it was inexpensive by comparison so i ended the purchasing spree with that. At this point i work nearly dust free as compared to before. After all these Festools my aim is to have as little dust as possible in my shop. After 20 years in the trades working without dust is so nice. Being a carpenter and not working for myself i deal with more than my fair share of dust Monday through Friday. On the weekend i want to sip coffee dust free in my workshop while i get my perfectionist on ;)

i was pretty set on the Felder unit till i found a bunch of info on the filters that suggested they like to clog. Seems you can add a automated feature to do this for you as apposed to the wiggle handle thing. I also read replacing the filter is a $800 plus affair and I'm not really interested in that just to have a machine that saiz Felder.

I will also add a drum sander to my shop at some point, probably the Felder 650. I guess the filters in the RL dont like the fine dust of a drum sander.

This is a lot of money to spend all at once but will be worth it. I have been chipping away at a legitimate shop for about a year now. I still have quite a few big purchases i could and will make. The reality is i get quite a bit done now as i am so none of it is dire straights. Just a case of want not need.




I have been absolutely satisfied with the Tersa cutting heads on my MM J/P and I've had it since about 2004. They are versatile, easy to change, easy to adjust to deal with a nick and do a great job. Skewing highly figured or "tough to surface" material at an angle on the wider jointer bed generally gives a very clean cut. I have never felt the need for a spiral head, although I'll certainly acknowledge that they are really nice.

Do pay attention to the dust collection requirements for these machines. Not optional and you don't want something that can't handle the profuse output of chips and dust from these great machines!

[Mark Carlson]

The hammer tables on my machine are very flat. I got the byrd head, so I'd get the silent power head if I was buying again.


I wanna hear about problems with the Hammer tables not being flat.

That would be a big deal breaker on either machine for me. Id be even more pissed if the rep then told me to get lost and i was out of my mind for caring.

[Jim Becker]

Run at least a 6" line out to the J/P from the DC. You can reduce to 5" for that last piece of flex and then use a Fernco rubber plumbing boot from the home center to attach to the 120mm port on the MM. Hammer is likely similar if you go that route, but I don't know what their port size is. And again, you do need your DC to be in place before you can operate these J/P machines. They will clog in about a half second without DC. Nature of the beast...

[Jim Andrew]

How wide is your old Yates jointer? You might check on woodweb to see if there is a used machine close to you. For me the cost of driving half way across the country to get a used machine would cost more than just buying new. But I see some great deals in the east and north parts of the country.

[Rich Riddle]

Glad to see you considering Felder. Felder is more in line with MiniMax as parity goes. Hammer is the hobby line but still good. I chose the MiniMax FS35 with the Byrd Shelix head. It works great. It certainly makes up for the wood butcher's inadequacies in the hobby.

[Chris Padilla]

I have the FS41Elite J/P. That is 410 mm wide or 16" with a 3-knife Tersa head. Works great, easy to change, cheap to pick up more blades. I was quoted $1200 for a Byrd Shelix head for it a few months ago but decided to pass on it. Mine has done everything I've ever asked of it and I don't see a reason to change anything. Oneida makes a transition from 6" to 120 mm for the dust collection port. If you don's see it on their site, jet them an email about it and they'll whip one up for you.

[Patrick Walsh]

Anyone have feed rate or snipe issues with the Minimax machines.

I have read a number of accounts of such but who knows it could just be user error. Or the Hammer machine with silent cutter head could be that great because people rave of the fact they get zero snipe.

i was also told the Minimax machine have no way to adjust the rollers but that the Hammer Felder stuff can be adjusted.

i am concerned with snipe as i often work with wood $25-30 a board foot. If for nothing else you get attached to agrain pattern and do t want to cut it off. Or i. To lazy to deal with feeding a dummy board through with my good piece. A planer that leaves zero snipe sounds like a dream. If its true can be had id really kick myself if i purchased anything else.

[Patrick Walsh]

I considered a old machine. I already purchased that Yates machine form the 30-40's and the fence has some twist in it. No big deal bit also not ideal. I really don't want to have to or cant move a 2000 lb machine into my shop. Plus all those machines are 3 phase. At least the good ones and i don't want to do the phase converter thing. Rather just have a shiny new machine if its not a Grizzly or Jet hobby machine.


How wide is your old Yates jointer? You might check on woodweb to see if there is a used machine close to you. For me the cost of driving half way across the country to get a used machine would cost more than just buying new. But I see some great deals in the east and north parts of the country.

[Jim Andrew]

I was not talking antique machines. A couple months ago I was looking for a slot mortiser, and saw a Hammer K3 winner, 7948, a combo jointer surfacer, and a hammer bandsaw. All advertised by one seller
and only about 3 years old. And at half the price of new. But it was in one of the east coast states.

[Chris Merriam]

I get snipe with my FS30, but I'm not ruling myself out as the cause LOL! It is quite easy to adjust both the infeed and outfeed roller pressure, it just takes an allen wrench in two bolts, one on either end of each roller. The bolt heads are easily accessed just by lifting the tables to put it in planer mode - they're right there in plain view.

This is my first full size planer, prior to this I had a lunchbox so there were no adjustments to make at all, so I'm still learning how to tune the machine for best performance, and unfortunately I'm self-taught and there's no documentation on the proper tension/pressure each roller should have. I'm pretty sure I've been running with too much pressure, the board was getting jerked out of my hand on the infeed side, so I've recently dialed the pressure back but I'm not in the middle of a project so I haven't even bothered to see if that solved the problem or not.

[Chris Padilla]

I don't have snipe problems with my FS41...just jam it in there and all is good out the other end assuming the knives are sharp. Having double-sided blades is a plus.

[Jamie Buxton]

There's a Mini Max FS35 jointer / planer on the San Francisco Craigslist. Has slot mortise. Asking is $1000. Yep one thousand.

[Patrick Walsh]

How about with dust extraction do you still have clog problems.

One of the things the Hammer rep os claiming is that although the minimax machine has two dust ports thus not having a mess of hoses the ports are smaller and like to clog.

Anyone having trouble that is running a Minimax machine with clogging. How is the dust collection overall.

Dust collection is one of my biggest motivators for going with a modern machine vrs a vintage cast iron beast. I hear the Hammer is great in this department. Good enough is good enough but there is nothing like a machine that collects dust well.


Run at least a 6" line out to the J/P from the DC. You can reduce to 5" for that last piece of flex and then use a Fernco rubber plumbing boot from the home center to attach to the 120mm port on the MM. Hammer is likely similar if you go that route, but I don't know what their port size is. And again, you do need your DC to be in place before you can operate these J/P machines. They will clog in about a half second without DC. Nature of the beast...

[David Kumm]

A spiral creates small chips that are easier to extract vs the long shavings from straight knives. Size the DC properly and you will have no problem. When you get into large machines, a 5 hp 15-16" impeller is what you need. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

5 horse!

i had hoped for a 3 horse Onieda V3000 operating one tool at a time.

Are you saying this is not going to be enough or insufficient?


A spiral creates small chips that are easier to extract vs the long shavings from straight knives. Size the DC properly and you will have no problem. When you get into large machines, a 5 hp 15-16" impeller is what you need. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

I don't have snipe problems with my FS41...just jam it in there and all is good out the other end assuming the knives are sharp. Having double-sided blades is a plus.

Same with my A3-31, zero snipe.

I normally take 2mm off per pass and with a 6 metre per minute feed rate it's fast......Rod.

[Robert LaPlaca]

Anyone have feed rate or snipe issues with the Minimax machines.

Have a MM FS-41 Elite, no snipe issues. Not sure what is meant by feed rate issue? My machine is an older MM FS-41 with a single speed three knife Tersa head.

With my old dust collector, the long shavings from the Tersa head used to like to clog the dust port.. Especially bad with wide (14-16") Poplar boards, was much less an issue with Walnut, Cherry or Mahogany. The new DC is sized like Dave alluded to, it hasn't been installed yet, so....

[Chris Merriam]

I have the 3hp Oneida for my FS30 and it works great, no issues. I have it on a run of about 20 feet using 6in pvc, then step down to 5in flex at the machine, hooked up using a Fernco rubber fitting. The Fernco wouldn't slip over my 120mm fittings so I had to shave the inside a bit. One difference on the MM vs Hammer is on the MM the dust fitting is essentially in the same place when jointing or planing. On the Hammer you have to physically flip the hose from the right side of the machine to the left side. Sounds trivial but makes a difference to me since I try to minimize flex hose use (it's expensive and it hurts performance). I also have my machine pushed close to a wall, and large flex hose can be surprisingly heavy and inflexible when moving in tight tolerances.

[Patrick Walsh]

What are people doing with the MM machines for a height gauge on the planer.

i have read of aftermarket units. I have also read those aftermarket units can be problimatic?

[Robert LaPlaca]

What are people doing with the MM machines for a height gauge on the planer.

i have read of aftermarket units. I have also read those aftermarket units can be problimatic?

My machine has a digitial height gauge (not electronic), sounds really low tech, but once you have the gauge dialed in it is scary accurate..

[Bill Adamsen]

I have a 3hp Cyclone with a 14"+ impeller. Longer shavings on wider boards from my 16" (straight blade) can create problems. I posted a few weeks ago about an issue that required a teardown and cartridge clean out. Reducing cut with the wider boards seems to avoid the problem. The issue was a clog in the cyclone housing itself ... so no alarms went off indicating an issue. Could be a cyclone design issue which you wouldn't encounter with the Oneida. However, as Dave mentions, I don't think you can go wrong with more HP and a larger and better designed impeller producing more CFM. And with more CFM you can use larger pipe getting same velocity. Another advantage is you can "turn down" the speed to 50hz - maintain required velocity - and drop the "noise" volume pretty significantly.

[Patrick Walsh]

Bill,

That adds up. Fact is the dust port collectors on the MM machine are more narrow than the Hammer. Combine that with fine shavings created with the spiral cutter on the Hammer and you are going to get better dust collection. Add a underpowered or poorly designed dust collection system and of course you are going to have problems.

Thank you for being honest and open with your experience.

[mreza Salav]

I have a FS350 MM J/P (same machine as Jim). I don't get snipes usually but if you are planing a long (say 8-10') board you better support it at the out feed (like lifting it) or else it is hard to not get snipes.
As for DC, I find the machine has a reasonable DC in planer mode but not so much in jointer. The issue is the dust hood can't get too close to the head and therefore I typically have a bunch of shavings on the planer bed when I have done a load of joining. BTW, I have a 5HP clearvue cyclone.
Overall I'm happy with the machine.

[Jim Barrett]

I've owned a Hammer A3-31 with the power head option for almost 2 years now....an excellent machine with flat tables...I have used it for a few projects and it is a very nice machine. We are snow birding right now in AZ and are planning on moving here later this year so I am going to be putting all of my power woodworking equipment up for sale once we get back home in a month or so...

[Jim Becker]

How about with dust extraction do you still have clog problems.

One of the things the Hammer rep os claiming is that although the minimax machine has two dust ports thus not having a mess of hoses the ports are smaller and like to clog.

Anyone having trouble that is running a Minimax machine with clogging. How is the dust collection overall.

Dust collection is one of my biggest motivators for going with a modern machine vrs a vintage cast iron beast. I hear the Hammer is great in this department. Good enough is good enough but there is nothing like a machine that collects dust well.

I've never, ever had a clog at the machine, at least with my current cyclone system. My original cyclone was smaller and didn't have the "opmph" to move the chips fast enough when working a wide board. But that was many years ago...never a clog since.

[Chris Padilla]

Yep, nary a clog with my FS41-Elite and it is a bit wider than Jim's machine but I have a more or less homemade-ish cyclone and honestly haven't a clue about the specs. All I can say is that it sucks and has never clogged AFAIK. I once accidentally sucked up a rather large thick towel and as I raced to turn it off, I envisioned it furiously tangled around the impeller choking it off and burning out my motor and bearings. The towel had quietly dropped into the dust bin with little disturbance. :)

[Peter Kelly]

No clogs with my Tersa head FS41 Elite either. I did remove those weird fin things inside the dust nozzels though. Can't imagine what purpose they're supposed to serve. My only gripe about it is the crappy pork chop guard. The Euro-style one is an extra $325 if ordered separately.

The Tersa head is fine btw. I don't feel i'm missing anything not having a spiral one.

Great machine, wouldn't hesitate to buy it again.

[Robert LaPlaca]

No clogs with my Tersa head FS41 Elite either. I did remove those weird fin things inside the dust nozzels though. Can't imagine what purpose they're supposed to serve. My only gripe about it is the crappy pork chop guard. The Euro-style one is an extra $325 if ordered separately.


My understanding is the Euro guard doesn't meet USA safety specifications and conversely the USA style pork chop guard doesn't meet EU safety standards, so that's why SCM only sells the Euro guard separately from the machine for USA bound machines.. By the way the Euro guard is a great upgrade and well worth the $325, put one on my machine three years ago and threw the pork chop away..

Just as a point of reference, both the Martin T54 jointer and T45 planer come with Tersa knife heads standard...

[Chris Padilla]

I tossed the pork chop long ago and put the Euro on and soon I removed that as well. I guess I'm flirting with disaster here but both guards are annoying in their own rights but the pork chop is especially bad.

[Robert LaPlaca]

I tossed the pork chop long ago and put the Euro on and soon I removed that as well. I guess I'm flirting with disaster here but both guards are annoying in their own rights but the pork chop is especially bad.

You need to check out the SUVA guard, that Martin outfits its machines with.. The bridge guard folds down, so it reduces how much the bridge guard is in the way..

[Chris Padilla]

Thanks, Robert. Another guard to buy and install and then remove! LOL :D :D

There is that metal guard plate on the other side of the fence that one day, I damaged somehow maybe flipping the table up for planer operation or back down for jointer...don't recall. I bent the shizoo out of it and so guess what? It also got removed and is now with the pork chop and Euro guards! :rolleyes: You just know that one day I'll be posting how the Tersa blades won in fight between it and my flesh. sigh

[Jim Becker]

I'm definitely a fan of the Euro guard...a "pork chop" on a wide jointer is a royal pain in the you-know-what! "I" consider the Euro guard safer since it's always over the cutter head, with the exception of during an edge-joint (which I never do having a slider...) and then only the amount necessary for the board to pass by along the fence. The "pork chop", while not "unsafe" does leave a little more cutter head exposure when flattening at the beginning and end of cut and you don't have the utility of dragging the board back over top smoothly like you do with the Euro/bridge guard.

[Bill Rabbino]

I purchased a FS30 in 2011 from Eric Loza and have few complaints. There is no snipe, I use a 1 1/2 hp dust collector with no problem. The pork style guard is poorly made and when switching from joining to planing I broke it, customer service was responsive and delivered a new one last week, the same as the original unfortunately. I have the European guard but have never gotten use to it. The tersa blades are easy to change, reasonably priced and do a great job.

[Matthew Hills]

For folks who already have the FS30 or A3-31, how far do they stick out from the wall?
(I'm thinking through how I might store them well in my current garage/shop; seems like some of them have a rail projecting out the back to help support the fence)

thanks,
Matt

[Chris Merriam]

For folks who already have the FS30 or A3-31, how far do they stick out from the wall?
(I'm thinking through how I might store them well in my current garage/shop; seems like some of them have a rail projecting out the back to help support the fence)

thanks,
Matt

For the FS30, just measured, you need 13 inches from the wall. What gets you is the guard sticking out of the back of the fence, that needs 8-10 inches if the fence is pushed back for a full width cut. And the other gotcha is if you choose to leave the fence mounted when you lift the tables. The fence is five inches tall or so, so you need additional clearance for that. If you choose to unmount the fence every time, then 8-9 inches will do it, otherwise 13-14 inches.

[Matt Mattingley]

I have the hammer a3 31 with the silent head. I tried a few other machines and I wasn't really crazy about their inserted heads how they chop at the wood. The hammers Healy coil head cuts more like a gradual knife. At the machine I have to reduce my CFM from 1900 to 700 to keep the shrouds in place. The hammer a3 31 I would consider a great hobbyist machine. It only has one acme thread keep in the planer level. This is a problem if you do not have a out feed and infeed tables that are adjustable or a helper. Heavier longer boards give a gradual snipe as the weight cocks the table a tiny bit. If you go up to the Felder line they have two guide pins to prevent this cocking. They have a little bit bigger of a head in diameter and instead of two rows of inserts they have three rows of inserts. For dust extraction it is 118 mm attachment. I made a quick connect using black 4 inch drain pipe coupling. I turned out the inside of the coupling to 118 mm. I clamp a 5 inch flex hose to the outside of the coupling. No matter what machine you purchase you will want a minimum of a real 600 CFM minimum and a quick connect coupling for the changeover .

[Erik Loza]

You need to check out the SUVA guard, that Martin outfits its machines with.. The bridge guard folds down, so it reduces how much the bridge guard is in the way..

Robert, are you aware of a US supplier for SUVA products? If so, I would love to have that info to pass on to customers.

SCM supplies a SUVA clear guard for the riving knife on a few of the bigger Minimax sliders but as usual, you have to go through Parts to get it and there is their markup on it. I would love to be able to tell guys where to buy this stuff directly if there is such a source here in the States.

Thanks,

Erik

[Robert LaPlaca]

Robert, are you aware of a US supplier for SUVA products? If so, I would love to have that info to pass on to customers.


Eric, I don't know of any US supplier of Suva.. I do know that Martin does/did offer the Suva fold down jointer bridge guard as an option on their T54 jointer, I thought it was the coolest bridge guard I ever saw. IIRC the guard costs about $1500 - 2000

[Erik Loza]

Eric, I don't know of any US supplier of Suva.. I do know that Martin does/did offer the Suva fold down jointer bridge guard as an option on their T54 jointer, I thought it was the coolest bridge guard I ever saw. IIRC the guard costs about $1500 - 2000

Yeah, that's basically what I know as well. I think Felder might also sell the segmented bridge guard as well but as for the other stuff, UK is the closest I can find any dealer. A shame, really: It's the "Aigner" of blade guards. Maybe I should take a business trip over there, buy a container of it, then re-sell it over here. LOL

Erik

[Jason Matisheck]

I have the A3-31 with spiral cutter head and a Dust Gorilla. I love it. I have not seen any snipe as long as long boards are supported on the outfeed. I have not noticed planer bed deflection even when running my benchtop slabs (11"x5"x8') through it. The only annoying aspect of these combo machines that I've noticed is having to keep raising the infeed and outfeed supports when planing long boards, but that is the nature of the beast. I do not have the outfeed support that attaches to the planer table, but may get it eventually.