Stupid clamping tricks for eight sided columns?

[Larry Edgerton]

I am making some 8", 8 sided columns out of makore. The machining is perfect, they will stand there just slipped together and all the joints are perfect, and they are all splined so I don't have to worry about alignment. Couple of wraps of shrink wrap around them dry and they fit awesome.

Then I have to glue them.......

I wet the surfaces down with a wet rag to give myself more time, and went for it with Titebond II. Two of the opposing joints are not glued as they have to come back apart for some additional machining on the inside. Ratchet straps are not an option, this is for a $7K table and can have no marks. I used 3/8 surgical tubing in with three stretched wraps in five places and clamps on the ends to help.

The problem is coming from the glue starting to set on the first pieces I glue up before I can get the rest of them glued. I had my splines pre-glued into every other piece so I did not have to mess with that. I just can't get it all done fast enough working alone. I may switch to epoxy so I have unlimited open time, but that will require the first coat on the whole piece to be West System or it will show in the finish. Not a deal breaker, but a pain I was not planning on.

I think I will make a pair of helpers with an octagon shape on the inside with a slight taper that can be tapped on the ends to get then set quickly and help to hold then. The one I just finished turned out all right but it was a battle and it could be better.

So........ Let hear your tricks to make this go more smoothly. This is something I have always struggled with.

[William Nimmo]

I had success with laying all the pieces face down on strips of packing tape, adding glue to one edge of each joint and rolling the piece up as one and then adding more tape around the whole column, pulling tightly

Did this with spanish cedar on a column for a boat table and there is not a single gap..
Probably got a little lucky

[jack duren]

Get Titebond Extend. Get a longer set glue...

[Chris Padilla]

Use III or epoxy. I hate hate HATE glue ups. All my stuff fits beautifully and tight and then I do something stupid like add glue to the joint. Ugh.

Anyway, III has a longer open time although it may still not be enough for your situation. In that case, 30 minute epoxy is your friend.

I gave up on II when III came out for the longer open time. When I need a short open time, I go to I or their Molding and Trim glue, which is nice and thick, doesn't run, and sets in 60 seconds.

Bicycle inner tubes are also good clamps. Strap clamps may help. Special cauls as you alluded to may also help.

OR don't glue up the whole thing at once. Glue part of it but put it all together and clamp as if you did glue the whole thing.

[John TenEyck]

I would use TB III and put glue in only half the parts, but assemble the whole thing. When that half has dried take it apart and add glue to the rest of the parts.

OR

Use liquid hide glue and glue it all up at once.

John

[Steve Jenkins]

I have done a bunch just like William described. You don't need to use a spline because it is long-grain joint just like edge gluing and if the miners are good it will self align as you tighten the tape or tubing or whatever you use.

I had success with laying all the pieces face down on strips of packing tape, adding glue to one edge of each joint and rolling the piece up as one and then adding more tape around the whole column, pulling tightly

Did this with spanish cedar on a column for a boat table and there is not a single gap..
Probably got a little lucky

[Brett Luna]

OR don't glue up the whole thing at once. Glue part of it but put it all together and clamp as if you did glue the whole thing.

+1 on this. I was just about to post this suggestion but saw Chris' post just in time.

[Mel Fulks]

I have done only projects of that type that would be subsequently turned. Used nylon ratchet straps and Titebond 2, I don't think the straps left any marks. Did have at least "please drop what you are doing .." emergency help. If the glue set
is main trouble ,I would switch to UF glue,if of course, you can make shop at least 70 degrees.

[Larry Edgerton]

I didn't mention that tis is 1 1/8" thick figured Makore that is a bit unruly and that is part of the reason that I used splines. The other reason is that the legs cantilever out 16", pass through the columns to a shallow mortice on opposite side of the column. The top is 2 1/2" thick and extremely heavy.

I have done the tape thing, I use metal tape, but with the splines that would not work and as I said this wood is unruly. I had it ready to go a couple of days ago but the shop temp dropped down below where I felt comfortable gluing anything up, so they moved a bit in the last couple of days. I hate Makore for this and that it tries to kill me with the dust.

I get glue lines through the finish with TB III, don't like that. I am going to try it in sections like someone mentioned, or just switch to West System.

Thanks a bunch gentlemen.
Larry

[mike mcilroy]

The glue up some, but clamp the whole works well. I used this method to cover some lally posts in a basement. Glued each half up this way in the shop then only had two joints for final glue up in the basement.

[Max Neu]

I use the Lamello P system with a Clamex or Tenso, depending on the situation. It turns those kinds of glue ups into childs play.The fittings hold everything really tight while the glue dries, you don't have to rush to beat the glue, you can just do one joint at a time without panicking.

[jack duren]

The problem is coming from the glue starting to set on the first pieces I glue up before I can get the rest of them glued.

I must be missing something? TITEBOND EXTEND?

[mreza Salav]

I have done a bunch some very big ones (like this these 12 sided ones: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?215562-Built-a-few-columns&highlight=).
Working alone I found it easier to glue them in sections. Also, I get two halves complete and then take each half over the jointer to shave so ever slightly in case the angles are off and then glue the two halves.

[Larry Edgerton]

I must be missing something? TITEBOND EXTEND?

I heard you Jack.:)

I read up on it last night a bit and am going to try it on the second column. I have not tried it yet but wanted to read a bit before I commented. Its a sixty mile trip to get some for me but sounds like it may be the ticket.

Its been sub zero every morning for so long here that everything is drier than usual, and that is not helping.

I popped the clamps on the one I did yesterday and its good, but it would be nice to be able to slow down. So stressful! ;)

[Max Neu]

I use Titebond Extend alot,I really don't notice that much difference in open time compared to regular titebond,maybe a little bit.I personally don't find titebond extend to be any kind of a solution to complex glue ups,I just use it because it sands nice and has a more ridgid glue line.

[Lee Schierer]

I had success with laying all the pieces face down on strips of packing tape, adding glue to one edge of each joint and rolling the piece up as one and then adding more tape around the whole column, pulling tightly

This system works great. Once you get it rolled up you can use a Ratcheting Band Clamp to pull the joints really tight. Use several and sneak up on maximum tightness by tightening each one a little at a time, giving the nylon band time to creep around the column.

[Bradley Gray]

Larry, I use TBII in one of these glue spreaders http://virutex.com/whitevinylglueapplicatormodelem25d.aspx but any hard rubber roller will greatly speed up spreading glue.

[jack duren]

sorry Larry, Spent to many years as a cabinet maker only to find when building furniture there was other glues than regular Titebond. We use Extend for chair making and complex building. Not perfect and depends on the time of year. Drier part of the year, the faster it will bond. Glue cleanup was much better than the regular which was a plus with chairs.

[Keith Mathewson]

Have you considered a 1/2 round glueing cradle and wedges? Goes pretty fast as the staves are mostly self aligning.

[peter gagliardi]

I have done an awful lot of this over the years, with your exact method of miters and splines. I learned a loooong time ago that the brown powdered plastic resin glue made by DAP or now it's equivalent by CP Adhesives ,CP-0503 is the only glue to use. I have used at various times stretch wrap, cauls and screw clamps, and also band clamps with cauls thick enough to not touch the corners. I have the Jorgensen cloth band clamps that work quite well. I usually just roughly tape the cauls on the face before strapping to keep them in place. There are lots of ways to keep it warm, if small enough, an electric blanket is great.

[Judson Green]

I have done a bunch just like William described. You don't need to use a spline because it is long-grain joint just like edge gluing and if the miners are good it will self align as you tighten the tape or tubing or whatever you use.

+1 more to doing it this way. Even just plane old mitered things I've done with good results this way.

[Jeff Duncan]

With that thickness of wood I'd skip the splines next time and just glue edge to edge. Your glue-up will be wayyyyy faster and you have plenty of surface area for a good strong joint. In this situation the splines are not helping alignment but hindering it.

I'd avoid the West system as it's messy and may cause problems. Like gluing your surgical tubing to the wood….if it doesn't melt it altogether:eek: Don't know if it would, but I'd do some testing first for sure. Also a real PITA to clean up afterward. Plain old TB without the splines and I'll bet you'll do just fine.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

I'm wondering if those bessey strap clamps with the variable angle pads would help? They sure aren't cheap, but seem tailored to this kind of thing. I recently did a bunch of simple 4 sided mitered boxes, and mind you it was in MDF which is way more polite than figured makore but they were 8' tall and I was working alone. I used packing tape to hold the sides together, then clamped a pair of cauls across each end perpendicular to the length to stabilize and aid in flipping the whole mess. I had to tape them show face out but had to flip them to glue up. So now its like big tambor door. But glue up was fairly simple, just squeeze a bead at the bottom of each intersection and along each of the two untaped mating edges, fold the whole thing up, one clamp or some tape to hold it in place while I put the strap clamps on, the kind with the handle you turn and the little corner blocks. I've used plain old strap clamps before, and those work ok when you want to spread out the pressure on a perfect glue up...but when you need to apply some concentrated pressure to get a particular area to close up, the strap clamps seem to work much better as you can position those little corner pads where needed. I used the jorgenson versions because my boxes were four sided, and we have a pile of the jorgensons that do 4 sided miters, but the besseys are made to handle more sides with additional corner blocks and the angles are variable.

I did a bunch of 4 sided oak posts last year using the same technique, far less polite but still works fine. I finesse each of the less than perfect edges into alignment with the tape (and by fitness I mean beat into submission), some pieces just fall outside of the range of workable and became something else, I did all the rips on a TS with a glue line blade and power feed so the facets were pretty close to perfect width and the cuts were good. I find thats maybe the most critical part if the parts are not truly flat, because holding a board flat over its length while ripping a bevel on multiples that have to turn 360 is for me nearly impossible by hand, and they never give me enough stock to actually flatten. In short I do not think there are any real easy tricks, its always going to be one of the more challenging glue ups. A real possibility if the wood is wild would be to make it in veneer, make the colums out of something that does behave like 8/4 poplar, or african mahogany, then to veneer the poplar octagons. As for glue thats all been discussed, the long open time glues suck to clean up and are temperature sensitive which is hard this winter unless your space is really well heated, and titebond kicks quick enough to require a helper and a heart monitor. Type 1, two, III, extend, I do not care which one you chose, they all have too short an open assembly time to make the glue up you are describing a walk in the park, I'm thinking doing it in sections helps as long as the last side can still come together. You might glue up 4 and 4 then run the 2 sides over the jointer so they mate well, and thats an easy flat glue up at that point. The tape thing works for me because it makes spreading the glue real fast, you just squeeze out bead and fold, it spreads itself. Come to think of it could you tape sets of 4 facets up, hold them to cure with the surgical tubing, joint the sections lightly and glue half from there?

[Larry Edgerton]

Morning Peter!

I got them all done yesterday. I ended up gluing up two at a time in a jig I threw together on the bench. I used the bench end with the long overhang, clamped a cleat on the edge and screwed one farther back so two pieces could drop in, After glue and dropping in they were clamped on the miter with hand screws and the width adjusted until they were exactly 45 degrees with F clamps. By manipulating the two different clamps I could get them tight and at the required 45 degrees. There are some small discrepancies due to the wood cupping slightly after machining, which of course changes the angle. I wanted to glue up right off the machine but the temps dropped to -30 for a couple of days and the shop heater was not cutting it, got down to 40 in the shop. So they cupped slightly in those couple of days. I will joint the halves lightly just before I glue them up as suggested by you and mreza.

When that was all done I assembled them as as a whole but only glued two sections as I need them to split so I can do a couple of mortices on the inside. I thought of doing the mortices ahead of time but then there is way to much to keep track of during a hectic glueup. I'll finish up the table base today.

This table is designed by an architect and is difficult from a woodworking perspective. But my new motto is "Yes we can!" these days as work is light.

I've always wanted to try those Bessey band clamps but have never bought them. You have any experiance with them Peter? They look like they might clamp without marking as the clamp section is narrow and would not be going over the edge of the miter. mreza has a picture of them, I'll have to ask him.

I bought a shaper head that was 22.5 degrees, and that did make it nice. I want one of those Vario-head adjustables but have not been able to justify the cost.

Have a nice Sunday Peter

Larry

[John C Bush]

I use the Bessey band clamp for "coopering" projects and it's perfect for the task. I bought a retiring gents entire shop and it was part of the cache. He had several other band clamp types that use a small wrench or screw driver to tighten the strap and they worked well also, ~~$5.00 on eBay. Hempe is the brand I have and the pics on eBay were identical to the ones I have-- likely a knockoff tho at that price. The nylon strapping doesn't mare the wood--even cedar--. I am too conservative (the birdie said "cheap cheap cheap") to buy Bessey clamps but would buy the other style if needed. I typically use TB II for these glue-ups and haven't had any set time issues. I helped build a playground for our small town and made a cedar water tower tank 6' in dia. x 6' tall and used biscuits for indexing, TB III, cargo type ratchet straps, and two extra sets of hands and we got it assembled with a bit of hustle but no real time problems. We also made a 32" dia x 16' long coopered cedar pipe to use as a slide. I indexed with buiscuits, used marine urethane adhesive--waterproof, flexible, long working time, sandable--and had 5 sets of hands to assemble. For the tank we assembled vertically--as we joined the staves with the biscuits they would stand up easily until fully assembled and the strap clamps could be cinched up, and for the pipe I made a yoke?? to support the outside and round inserts to support the top staves as we indexed them in place. As you tighten the straps a little persuasion with a dead blow mallet closed the joints and we got a great result. The key is good bevel cuts and accurate indexing. (the tank is on a tower 10' high and the pipe is attached to the tank and sloped to the ground so the kids, and adults <30" around, can go thru a door in the tank and slide down the pipe)

So---I recommend having a couple of the band clamps on hand and not worry about glue set time for small coopering glue-up. The tape method works well and splining/indexing isn't needed if the bevel cuts are good and the stock is straight/stable. Good luck with your project and we need to see pics when finished.

[Peter Quinn]

Morning Peter!

I got them all done yesterday. I ended up gluing up two at a time in a jig I threw together on the bench. I used the bench end with the long overhang, clamped a cleat on the edge and screwed one farther back so two pieces could drop in, After glue and dropping in they were clamped on the miter with hand screws and the width adjusted until they were exactly 45 degrees with F clamps. By manipulating the two different clamps I could get them tight and at the required 45 degrees. There are some small discrepancies due to the wood cupping slightly after machining, which of course changes the angle. I wanted to glue up right off the machine but the temps dropped to -30 for a couple of days and the shop heater was not cutting it, got down to 40 in the shop. So they cupped slightly in those couple of days. I will joint the halves lightly just before I glue them up as suggested by you and mreza.

When that was all done I assembled them as as a whole but only glued two sections as I need them to split so I can do a couple of mortices on the inside. I thought of doing the mortices ahead of time but then there is way to much to keep track of during a hectic glueup. I'll finish up the table base today.

This table is designed by an architect and is difficult from a woodworking perspective. But my new motto is "Yes we can!" these days as work is light.

I've always wanted to try those Bessey band clamps but have never bought them. You have any experiance with them Peter? They look like they might clamp without marking as the clamp section is narrow and would not be going over the edge of the miter. mreza has a picture of them, I'll have to ask him.

I bought a shaper head that was 22.5 degrees, and that did make it nice. I want one of those Vario-head adjustables but have not been able to justify the cost.

Have a nice Sunday Peter

Larry


Hi Larry, glad that went well, sounds like a creative solution. I haven't tried the Bessey versions, Iv'e used the jorgenson version and its pretty effective, glad I'm not paying for them though. The besseys have corner blocks with pads that angle, so you can do angles other than 90 degrees, the jorgies I've used only do 90, but the basic funcitonality is the same, its a nice way to clamp mitered boxes. I like the idea of a fixed angle head for a known angle, I have a vari angle head, and its allowed me to do some things I that would not have been easy other wise on a non tilting spindle shaper, makes crown back angles easier, but trying to hit exactly 22.5 degrees would be a hoot...might wind up with an "almost octagon"!

I work presently for a "yes we can" shop, I'm never sure what I'll be doing in a given week, sure keeps me thinking some weeks, but we are always busy and always get paid. I spent the past 10 years working for a custom shop that did a lot of interesting projects, but the house style was closer to "thats not really our thing...", they had a range and worked within it, and while its great to get really good at a certain style and a few types of things, the recession killed a lot of that business, much of it never returned, I moved on. Some days I'd like to scream "Are you bleeping kidding me...you want me to make what?", because the back side is the guy writing the checks wants the crew to be fast and profitable...often while doing something none of us has ever tried before. Right on the bleeding edge!

Can you post pics when its done? Lots of the clients my work goes to will actually demand photos be removed if they find them on the web, intellectual property etc.

[Jim Tobias]

Haven't followed the whole thread but, jumping in about the Bessey strap clamps. I have some of these and used them until I found these.
http://www.amazon.com/Wolfcraft-3681404-One-Hand-Ratcheting-Clamp/dp/B000JCLNQ4

These are a little less expensive and (IMHO) better clamps and easier to use. One handed use when tightening, sturdier corner pieces, stronger clamping pressure. Still have the Besseys, but would say check these out before investing in the Besseys.

Jim

[Larry Edgerton]

Can you post pics when its done? Lots of the clients my work goes to will actually demand photos be removed if they find them on the web, intellectual property etc.

No I can not, part of the agreement. I may post a pic of the interesting joinery inside the columns.

Never thought about the vari cutter being hard to get exact angles. Guess I will have to buy a tilt shaper........

[ian maybury]

Hi Larry. Glad to hear you didn't lose your parts anyway and that you got sorted out.

One option that comes up and seems to be approved by Franklin to extend the open time by up to 50% (just quoting) is to add up to 5% water to their PVA based adhesives. No more though or it apparently weakens the resulting bond.

Another possibilty that comes to mind is a two part urea formaldehyde adhesive called Aerolite 306 - it's a hugely well regarded UK originating adhesive approved for yonks for wooden aircraft and boat construction. It's not expensive. I used a lot of it years ago to build kayaks from marine ply - we never had a problem in what were pretty rough and ready working conditions. Not sure if it is sold in or widely used in the US. The resulting material is very tough, it gap fills to a fair degree (too much gap and the wet adhesive will run out of the joint), and it's waterproof.

http://www.tridentuk.com/gb/product-aerolite-306-wood-glue-al-aero-306.html
http://www.reaa.ru/yabbfiles/Attachments/AEROLITE.pdf

You mix the powder adhesive component with clean water to form a liquid like an almost clear PVA. The hardener is a water like (apart from the sharp smell) formic (?) acid solution. The adhesive goes on one surface of the joint, and the hardener wets the other - they don't come in contact and the cure soesn't kick off until the joint is assembled. It's temperature related, but you have about 15min + after assembly to get every aligned and clamped. It all cleans up nicely with water until the cure is well under way, and dries more or less clear. Once cured it forms a very hard epoxy like (but probably a bit more brittle) material that sands well but otherwise requires chipping off.

The benefit it might deliver in your situation is that while the time available after assembly is still fairly limited (the 15min+), you have more or less as long as you like to get the (powder and water) adhesive painted on to one face of all the joints. (it will eventually thicken/air dry on an open surface as the water soaks in and evaporates off - but it for example will keep for days in a jar after mixing without degrading) The hardener being water like brushes on in seconds, and because it doesn't do any harm or mark the wood (unless there is metal or something metal containing on/in it like maybe a dye) it doesn't greatly matter if it gets beyond the joint.

The relevant surface of the joint must be wet with hardener when it's assembled, but if it dries or soaks in before you are ready you just apply more. It's action, is catalytic so that while its presence triggers the cure it doesn't combine with/isn't a constituent of the polymerised material. The quantity isn't critical - there just has to be enough about. The water mixed with the other powder component is likewise just a vehicle to enable it's application and spreading (it brushes on very nicely) - it evaporates off and plays no direct part in making the bond. I've a feeling the acid hardener could play a part in cutting through/minimising sensitivity to wood oils etc on the surfaces...