Should I get a shaper?

[Susumu Mori]

Hi all,

I have been thinking about buying a shaper, but information about shapers is much more scarce than other woodworking tools, making me think it is not commonly used by a hobbyist like me.
My work is 80% solid wood, 20% sheet goods. Now I am working on dining chairs that go with a dinner table I just made. I'm not a router guy and try to avoid using it as much as possible, just because I don't like how it turns otherwise serene woodworking into a fierce experience. Having said that, I do use my routers whenever necessary. I have a shop-made router table which has been serving me well for right-duty routing, but after almost 10 years, it is a time to think about the upgrade.

Now, if I buy a 3HP router and good table, it can go up well north of $2,000 depending on what I want. I recently watched a video by Wood Whisperers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUBceVvkGQw). They were using router bits with a shaper and I was impressed how much quieter the shaper is. I know that a router bit in a shaper is not the best thing but for hidden grooves, I don't need a super smooth surface anyway. Of course, I don't mean to buy a shaper just as a quieter alternative to spin router bits, but if a shaper can swing router bits and can do many more, I may want to add a shaper rather than another router table with more bells and whistles.

So, I guess my questions are;

1) How do you think about a shaper for a hobbyist? If I really want a new router table, is a shaper a reasonable alternative?
2) Based on my past experience, I am sure that I can live without a shaper, but I feel that I may be missing some fun without it. Do you think it really add a new dimension to my woodworking?
3) I have been looking at the market and it seems all the non-euro shapers are basically the same thing from Taiwan. Powermatic and Laguna seem to have better components, but I found several posts complaining Powermatic, which are actually "usual complaints" we often hear for any clone woodworking machines from Taiwan; mostly great but occasional, but can-be-serious, glitches. Considering these, should I go with no-frill Griz/Fox/Jet/General/etc or a bit nicer (looking) PM/Laguna, or all the way to Euro? Of course, the euros are the great, but as the price goes beyond $3K and approach $5K, then I have to return to my Question #1.

I know many of you are professionals with multiple shapers, but I would appreciate if you put yourself as a weekend hobbyist and think what a shaper would do to you.

Thank you guys!

Susumu

[Ray Newman]

This might help you out: http://patwarner.com/router_or_shaper.html

[Cary Falk]

I am one of the people that couldn't see spending a lot of money on a large router+table+lift. I have a Hitachi M12V in a homemade table. I bought a 3hp Grizzly shaper years ago. I use a lot of router bits on it without issue. I just adjust the feed rate. I also have a CMT head that you can get the HSS knives for. Amana makes one also. I think a shaper is the best of both worlds. I found a 1hp feeder on CL years ago for $200 and it is great. I will admit that the shaper is the one tool in my garage that scares me a little bit.

[Rich Riddle]

The shaper that allows you to utilize router bits is a small one by Jet and Grizzly. It uses either shaper or router bits. The problem with it is that the motor spins the bits much slower than a router, so you are using router bits at a slow speed. The shaper bits also turn at the same speed, but shaper bits are built to turn at slower speeds. I had the Jet shaper that ran both bits and gave it to a friend for a dedicated shaper that only runs shaper bits. It gets used far less than the router table but both have a purpose. Only have room for one? Pick the router table in my opinion.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi SuSumu, I have a sliding table, tilting spindle shaper in a hobby shop.

I do not own a router.

The shaper is one of the most versatile and used machines in my shop. I use it for the following operations

- rebates and grooving

- edge profiles

- tennoning

- sawing thin strips

I suggest you watch the following videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8A3XK3R0I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgellk8U85w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8WcPOd5g7w

They will show you some good applications for shapers.

Here's a link to me making tenons on my shaper

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210585-Making-Tenons-on-the-Shaper&highlight=tenons+on+a+shaper

One of the most cost effective approaches is to buy a 40mm Euroblock cutter with steel knives. The cost of the knives is about the same as a lower router bit, and they are far superior for use in solid wood.

If the book The Spindle Moulder Handbook is available, buy it and read it. It's the only up to date shaper book available.

[Harold Weaver]

Susumu,

This is a tough question to answer. It all depends on what you want to do with it. I am by nature an OWWM guy and an enabler, so asking me if you need another machine is asking for a yes answer!! Shapers will usually run in the 7000 to 10000 RPM range, much slower than table mounted routers and will require the purchase of shaper cutters to do the job right. The cutters are more expensive than most router bits, but the advantage to a shaper is the weigh and cast iron tables in my opinion. I have a 1965 Delta HD shaper in full working order I picked it up for $350, a lot less than you can buy a new router table for set up with adjustable plate and router. The footprint in your shop for both is going to be about the same. Mine has the 1/2" and 3/4" spindles and I bought the router bit collet spindle for it. You can run router bits, but you will have to use a much slower feed rate with patience. Most router bits are designed to run upwards to 20,000 RPM.

However, the shaper will offer you much more flexibility for future expansion, not to mention they are much quieter than screaming router tables!! With that, you will need to decide on the types of projects you will be doing to determine if a shaper is suitable for your needs. Decent Delta and Powermatic shapers can be found used ranging from $400 to $950.00. Grizzly offers some decent shapers at good pricing. I know a friend who has one of the smaller Grizzly shapers and really likes it a lot and runs a router bit collet in it and says it works out great for him. Me, I stick to the American made stuff. But that is just me. Shop around. A good quality router table can also be beneficial if you feel so inclined based on the type of work you will be doing. But, I think you wind up spending as much on one of those set ups as you would a shaper in the long run, that is unless you build your own table. Just my 2 cents worth....

Harold

[Rick Potter]

I have several router tables, and a small Delta shaper. As a hobbyist, I seem to use the router tables more often, but I really like the small shaper. Mine is a Model 43-355, 1 1/2HP, two speed model (7000/10,000 RPM), made in USA.

They don't make them any more, but they can be found used if you take your time. Mine has a reversible 1/2"/3/4" spindle, as well as a router collet spindle. The thing that makes mine unusual is that the table is 18x30", more like a router table than most small shapers. It also has an unusual fence with adjustable fingers, which I do not like, and I made a basic router table fence for it that I use all the time. You should be able to pick up one of these for $500 or less in excellent condition.

For a long time, I only had a small router table and this shaper. I used the shaper for most projects, with good results. On soft woods, using small bits, the shaper left a little fuzz, at the 10K speed, but for anything larger than round overs it worked as well as my router. Any time I do raised panels I use it with a router bit, with very good results. It is much more quiet than a router.

I would suggest that a small router table, along with a 1 1/2HP shaper would be a nice combo, and not super expensive.

If you decide on a small shaper, I would look into this one, as the table size is much nicer than most others.

[John TenEyck]

To me it depends upon how you work and the type of work you want to do. I have a shaper but rarely use it. I have more respect (read fear) for that machine than any other, warranted or not. A several HP belt drive motor turning a chunk of carbide often weighing a couple pounds takes no prisoner. If something goes wrong, it goes wrong big time. And the thing is loud; different than a router, but still honkingly loud. Hook up your DC to it (foolish not to) and it's even louder. I find myself using my router table for everything possible and only using the shaper for making raised panels and large moldings. I could make those on the router table, too, but I have the cutters for the shaper so that's what I use.

If you want to make entrance doors, however, a shaper will do that better and faster than a router, no question. That's about the only reason I keep my shaper - though I have yet to use it to build an entrance door.

IMHO you don't need a 3 HP router either. They certainly will run anything you want, but I have no trouble with a 2-1/4 HP router in my table. And you don't need a lift either unless you are lazy or just want to spend money. Being able to adjust the bit to 0.001" is a rather moot point considering one piece of stock to the next has more variation than that. A simple router table seems to work just fine for me, even running cope and stick door bits where you need a high level of precision.

I just saved you a ton of money. You're welcome.

John

[Erik Christensen]

i am a hobbyist who faced the same question 4 years ago - router table or shaper. One of the comments I saw on a post here was along the lines of "there are lot of things that can be done with a shaper that cannot be done with a router table but nothing a router table does that a shaper cannot also do." - my experience confirms that statement - for example i recently had to groove the edge of 28" x 46" plywood panels for solid edge banding - piece of cake on the shaper with feeder.

I run router bits in it often and they work ~~ OK. my shaper max speed is 10,000 rpm - others have said you just reduce feed rate - that is only half the issue - slower feed rate might give you the same CPI (cuts per inch) but you still have the cutting edge moving a lot slower (a square function re bit radius). If you read the shaper books they talk about 'tip speed' - cutters are designed to have a specific tip speed range to cut optimally for a given wood species - for a given RPM decreasing the cutter diameter decreases the tip speed and can reduce cut efficiency/quality if tip speed falls too far below the designed range.

final point re a shaper for a hobbiest - manuals and documentation suck - at least all the ones i looked at compared to my other major tools. just like my commercial AAA (air assisted airless) sprayer - they assume it is headed for a pro shop and you already know how to use one - my shaper would have been a lot easier to learn how to use if I could have walked over to the fellow employee who has 25 years experience using one and been able to ask them "how the heck do you ..."

this board has been a great help to get over that hurdle and my pm2700 is one of my favorite tools (no router table in my shop as yet so the advice has been correct)

YMMV & good luck

[roger wiegand]

I'm using my shaper more and more, router less and less as I learn more about using the shaper and since I acquired a power feed for it. My shaper is an older 3hp delta that I picked up for about $600 with several sets of carbide cutters for cabinet making as well as two different spindles and a router bit adapter. I've since gotten an Amana head with interchangeable knives and an adjustable angle cutter that I just used in making all the cherry baseboards for my house. Panel raising is much less intense with the shaper, and with the feeder making a thousand feet of moulding was easy. It won't replace a plunge router, and for many small jobs it's easier to pick up a small router than it is to set up the shaper. My big 3+hp router gets very little use now though. I'm not sure how well small diameter bits will work on the shaper, I think you need the higher velocity the larger cutters give you to get clean cuts at the lower rotational speeds. I find I get much less burning with the shaper and can take full-depth cuts in most cases.

[Chris Padilla]

And you don't need a lift either unless you are lazy or just want to spend money. Being able to adjust the bit to 0.001" is a rather moot point considering one piece of stock to the next has more variation than that.

I think the precision lift I have on my router table is one of the more valuable things I got for it. One may not need to dial in a mil but several of them can help in certain situations. It is one of those things where if you have it, you might find a use for it and if you don't, well, you probably don't miss it.

[Mike Cutler]

Yes, you should buy a shaper if you can afford it, and have the space. I can't think of anything a table mounted router can do that a shaper cannot. The reverse is not true.
I avoided buying one for many years because I could use my router, and my space is small, but eventually one found it's way into my shop a few months back, via Todd Davidson here on the 'Creek. Once it isn't so darn cold, I'll be able to get back in the shop and put it to use.

For a hobbiest, you don't have to "go all in" on a new shaper. We're not in a production environment making a zillion doors a week
The used Delta 43-375's, and bigger, are very well suited to a small shop, and can usually be had used for around the $1K ,average, depending on which accessories it is coming with. One popped up here on the board last month and it was a sweet deal, because one of the "extra" spindles included in the deal is very highly sought after.

[ian maybury]

As a recent recruit to a 4HP Hammer F3 sliding table shaper but with an Incra Wonder Fence based router table set up as well i'm not hugely experienced in the pros and cons. I'd have to say though that i think there's jobs a shaper does best, and jobs a router table does best - i'd be slow to retire it so far despite being very tight for floor space.

I've been hugely impressed by the way the shaper effortlessly and very cleanly removes large volumes of material, but against that the router table with it's ease and flexibility of use combined with it's ability to properly run small diameter cutters seems to have areas where it excels too. The ability to tilt and reverse the spindle is a big plus on the shaper.

The essential distinctions for me are probably that (a) shapers reportedly don't run enough RPM to deliver a top quality cut with small diameter cutters even if a router spindle is fitted. (b) is the reality that light clamping and hand feeding done right are relatively safe on a router table. Which means that set up tends to be faster and less critical - there is considerably less risk of work being sucked into the cutter, and less risk of a serious outcome if it does happen in the case of the router. Router cutters are often cheaper too.

The Incra fence with it's very long travel and various precision positioning and adjustment capabilities is another significant factor that increases the usability and flexibility of the router. The extra travel/capacity aside (useful on bigger panels - while a shaper tends to be laid out more to handle the processing of strip material) it doesn't do all that much that theoretically isn't possible on the shaper, but it does to my mind do it quite a bit more conveniently.

Maybe the trick with the shaper is to make the investment in time and money to get set to handle the full range of tasks - that what i need is just more time on it….

[ian maybury]

Accidental duplicate...

[jack forsberg]

the shaper/spindle moulders run large and tall cutter block. my Robinson can hold cutter blocks 9" tall under the nut with a steady. Can you get HSS cutter for a routor any more? whats big on a routor is very very small on the spindle moulder. spindles rage in size up to 50mm spindles but 30mm is the most common. no all spindle moulder are the same and there nothing like a router table


http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m511/Phil_the_Joiner/Router%20Forums/SpindleMoulderBallBearingSteady_zps24cf9ab9.jpg

The top support was made to hold tall cutter blocks for pattern shaping(you can see one in the 1950 Wadkin tools and accessories catalog) or stacked grovers for comb joints. It was used to mount cutters high on the spindle to cut patterns high in the face of work. the spindle is special made with a milled step at the top to slide into the the top bearing bore. Mine will hold 9" of cutter but i have seen 12" long spindle block holding spindles. these are 1 1/4" spindle at min. It would be wise to double nut the work like seen in the image above.


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[Peter Quinn]

I like them. I started with a delta 3hp in the home shop, have since gone mostly euro and light industrial. I do this for a living and run some big shapers at work, so I'm pretty comfortable with them. I have a decent router table too, and wouldn't give that up for what it is good at. Shapers don't replace routers, but I just loath trying to use a big router as if it were a shaper, it's like playing hardball with a toothpick. Or hauling sheets of plywood on the roof of a corolla. I think a shaper has a place in any wood shop if you have the space and budget and are prepared to invest the time to learn to use it. With some shop made jigs and fixtures it's one of the most versatile machines you can own for joinery and molding, as well as pattern shaping, dados, rebates, grooves, and edge forming of all kinds.

On the which brand thing......I haven't used all the ones you mentioned, but fences are critical to fast accurate and effective use, and some of those import brands have fences somewhere between laughable and criminal. It's hard for a novice to understand just how bad they are, or what a real fence is supposed to do and can do for you. Powermatics new shapers are not over priced copies of the same Tiawan stuff the others are selling, you are getting what you pay for on this one, so if the price seems really low......here is a reason for it. You want smooth dual micro adjustable and preferably tool less adjustments on a new shaper hood these days. Not every vendor offers this. On brand I've used who shall remain nameless (green and have a fierce woodlan creature prominently on front) use what looks like dime store ratchets with a nut welded on to a coarse thread bolt to tighten the fence plates, and it is so far from precise I can't understand who approved it. Imagine trying to reengineer a Mercedes to cost $14k......hey, let's leave off the door handles and just use a coat hanger to open the doors.....

So my advice is look closely for a while and don't buy anything you can't see in person, the devil is in the details.....like spindle raising mechanisms, fences adjustments, table inserts, smoothness of motor. And if you decide to go shaper save money for tooling and learn to use it safely. Take your time.

[David Kumm]

I'm a hobby guy who like machines so take this for what it is worth. A decent sized shaper, 5 hp with an appropriately constructed quill ( not a small machine with a bigger motor ) and a small router table will handle most everything. I have multiple shapers, Martin, T130, Felder, Knapp, but my router table is a $100 little benchtop with a P-C 690 attached for small round over type stuff. Some shapers will allow use of router bits but they really need to get to 15000 rpm to replace the router. Don't forget to watch for used. High end hobby guys buy shapers and don't use them much, eventually selling them for 1/2 price. Same for shaper cutters. A decent used machine with a good fence trumps new with a mediocre one. And don't forget to budget for a feeder. A shaper shouldn't be sold without one. Dave

[Bob Hoffmann]

Well I have kind of a different take on the discussion.

The question proposed is weather a router table or shaper should be used. Given that one of the choices is a router table, it is not meant for production – but that does not mean that a run of ten doors is out of the question.
I have a small shaper – a older Jet model that takes ½” and ¾” spindles. One of the things that I really like about it is the spindle adjustment … this one has a 1.5” spindle travel – and that is a real improvement over ones that have 7/8” like some of the really small ones. It also has a side spindle lock and a wheel that raises and lowers the spindle. These are a real improvement over a router table and any of the small shapers (the various ¾ HP shapers).

I got mine on Craigslist and replaced the wooden fences with some Corian that I had left over from a kitchen in a house that we had built. The fences were straight, but they were not vertical. Shimming the brackets that held the fence was enough to make them vertical. The independent adjustment of the fences works great.

The shaper with its larger cutters cuts very smooth without any drama. I have not found it to be “scary”, but one has to be sure that the wood is held and rides on the fence and won’t get pulled into the cutter – nothing that I have done (yet) would benefit from a power feed.

One thing that you will have to get are rub collars so that shaper cutters (like round over bits) to operate on shaper that will not run exclusively on fence. Get various sizes to match the size of the cutters that you get.

One of the things that a shaper won’t do (at least with shaper cutters) are to cut a datto in the middle of a board, or probably use it for box joints or dovetails.

So, should you get a shaper or router table? I would vote for shaper, but for a home, a 1 HP one will have the controls of a shaper without the extra size of one of the big boys, and at least to do the same things that you would do on a router table without the need for a power feeder.

[Mike Schuch]

I think it all boils down to what you build and how you work. There have been incredible pieces coming out of shops since before shapers were ever conceived. But shapers do a great job at what they are good at if that is the kind of work you do.

As a hobbiest I started with a 50's Walker Turner 2hp 3ph 3/4" spindle shaper for $300 and still use it. I later acquired a Taiwanese 5hp 1ph sliding table shaper and love it for doing big projects. A shaper is a tool that can be very productive if you are comfortable with it. Those that prefer a router table will probably not get much use out of a shaper. I believe shaoers really start to shine when they are coupled with power feeders. A shaper with a power feeder is capable of so much more than a router table but if you paired a router table with a power feeder you would also open up whole new worlds of wood working.

I love my 2 shapers, but they are not for everyone.

[Kevin Nathanson]

I'm one of those annoying people who is going to answer with "Get both." However, if I had to cull the herd, I would stick with the router table for hobby/one-off work. For context, I own a homemade router table with a Peachtree cast iron top, Woodpecker sidewinder lift with wixey height gauge, Porter Cable 7518 router and Incra fence. I also own a 5hp 3ph sliding table, tilting spindle Jet shaper (Taiwan) with a 1 1/4" spindle and a fair bit of tooling, and a 1hp Grizzly feeder. Both machines are hooked up to central dust collection.

My rationale for router table over shaper:
1. Set-up time. I can adjust the fence and height on my router table to repeatable .001" accuracy very quickly and confidently, and seldom have to run sacrificial test pieces to validate my settings. "Nudging" the fence a couple thousandths is easy to do with a couple clicks of the adjustment wheel. Changing bits is fast and simple, as is creating a zero-clearance sacrificial fence for those cuts that need one. Contrast that with the shaper. Fence and height adjustments are more difficult to make and less precise, and always require test pieces for settings validation. (I will concede that if you have a computer-controlled Martin shaper this is not an issue, but then I am also assuming that your budget is under $20k, so that point becomes moot.) Changing tooling on the shaper is much more time consuming than doing so on a router table, and more finicky. For example, adjusting the height of a bit to cut a tenon on a router table is a simple turn of a crank, or in extreme cases, a loosening and retightening of a collet. On the shaper, it may involve removing half the tooling and dealing with shims, etc to get the right cut size. Not a zippy process.

2. Versatility (maybe.) If you want to make doors and lots of rail and style cabinet parts, then shaper(s) are the way to go. (Note the plural: Because of the difficulty of repeatable setup, most places that make a lot of doors and panel frames often have multiple shapers and leave each set-up to perform one type of cut.) If you are doing other things, to include dadoes, dovetails, plunge/stopped cuts, small rabbets, etc., then the router table is more versatile. I'm not sure how you safely cut a stopped dado in the center of a 16" panel with a shaper, but I do that frequently with my router table. Granted, I can't cut it 1/2" deep into curly maple in one pass like I could with a shaper—if the panel would actually FIT on the shaper—but I find my router table to be much more versatile overall.

3. Tooling cost. Router bits, while not inexpensive, cost less than shaper tooling, as do guide bearings. Shapers need bearings, rub collars, spacers, and either a lot of different cutters or an adjustable cutting head/block with multiple inserts, and those bad boys are VERY expensive. Also, to really be versatile, a shaper needs a really good fence. Like, Aigner-brand good, which is what comes on the aforementioned Martin shaper, and costs thousands by itself.

Now, having said all that, I still use my shaper for things that would be a challenge on my router table, such as random angle profiles—mine has a tilting spindle—and deep cuts that would require multiple router passes and might result in burn marks or tear out. Noise is a tie; neither one will make you popular with your neighbors. The shaper is perceived to be more dangerous, which perversely means I'm probably safer using it than the router, which can lull you into a false sense of security, i.e. my hands sure get a lot closer to a rotating router bit than they ever do to a rotating shaper cutter, which I always have guarded six ways to Sunday and only use with a feeder.

Anyway - one guy's opinion FWIW.

K

[Susumu Mori]

Hi all,

I really appreciate all the advises. It seems there is a consensus that a shaper would indeed be a nice addition to my shop. Many mentioned about the advantage of having both. As I mentioned, I do have my shop-made router table with a dedicated Porter-Cable. So, getting a shaper may make more sense than another fancier router table.

I also hear the importance of the fence. Kevin mentioned about the advantage of the nicer fence system a router table would have, but it seems exactly what Peter said; the fence is critical for shapers and many shapers in the market do not have good one. So, if I buy a shaper, I'd pay extra attention to the fence system.

The videos Rod linked are BAD. I am drooling badly. It seems some of you already have these euros and happy about them. These euros are nice but I need to find out how I can sneak the 700 lb machine to the basement without my wife noticing it physically and $ wise :D

Oh, well, as my retirement is looming over the horizon, I am replacing all the $500 machines with life-time tools one-by-one. It is important for me that tools give me "hmmmm nice" moments rather than frustration. I guess I'm going to get a shaper based on what I heard from you. I'm leaning on high-end Taiwan (PM or Laguna) or Euro. I'll let you know once I decided.

Thank you all!!

[Jim Andrew]

I have a 3hp Grizzly shaper and 1hp power feeder. Could have gone with 1/2hp feeder, and probably should have. It is smaller, and most of the time I run the feeder on slowest speed. Also have 2 router tables, one is just in the way now. When you want to run a lot of material, the shaper is MUCH better. I made base, casing and chair rail for my sil, he did not want to tape his drywall, just cover up the joints. He is going to run the rail around ceiling as well, and we ran it through my shaper. I also ran flooring for a buddy who helps me with projects. It is much better for panel doors, I ordered a new panel raising bit and stile rail cutter as well. I have about 70 cabinet doors to make for my nephew, plan to use the router table to put the edge he wants on the doors.

[Larry Edgerton]

the shaper/spindle moulders run large and tall cutter block. my Robinson can hold cutter blocks 9" tall under the nut with a steady. Can you get HSS cutter for a routor any more? whats big on a routor is very very small on the spindle moulder. spindles rage in size up to 50mm spindles but 30mm is the most common. no all spindle moulder are the same and there nothing like a router table


http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m511/Phil_the_Joiner/Router%20Forums/SpindleMoulderBallBearingSteady_zps24cf9ab9.jpg

The top support was made to hold tall cutter blocks for pattern shaping(you can see one in the 1950 Wadkin tools and accessories catalog) or stacked grovers for comb joints. It was used to mount cutters high on the spindle to cut patterns high in the face of work. the spindle is special made with a milled step at the top to slide into the the top bearing bore. Mine will hold 9" of cutter but i have seen 12" long spindle block holding spindles. these are 1 1/4" spindle at min. It would be wise to double nut the work like seen in the image above.


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To go along with the spindle extension.....

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t468/crookedtreejoinery/P1020337_zpsb61b4cf7.jpg (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/crookedtreejoinery/media/P1020337_zpsb61b4cf7.jpg.html)

I always get a chuckle out of this warning on my Unitronix. No injuries, just death!

[John TenEyck]

If you are close to retirement you probably should rephrase it to say you want to get a high end machine, not a "life-time" one, 'cause life is getting short. Said by one who realizes that fact every day. But I understand the desire to have machines that work as they are supposed to; they are a joy to use. I've filled my basement with some that others found frustrating for one reason or the other.

John

[jack duren]

If your wanting it for production it makes sense. If just for occasional use I wouldn't. Or nice to have if you just want one. There's a lot of ways around this:)
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