Chestnut ogee bowl

[Hayes Rutherford]

Leaving wood enough to keep this piece together somewhat led to this form. I spent a lot of time trying to get blanks out of a Horse Chestnut that had to be taken down before it fell on a house. Its frustrating when you loose a piece because of its size when a smaller vessel would have worked. This happened frequently on this tree but I did manage to get quite a few bowl blanks processed.

I don't turn many ogee bowls because its often difficult to get things right. I thought this one wasn't too bad and any C & C would be welcome.
Chestnut, approx. 10" diam., 1 coat(so far) tung oil, linseed oil, turpentine mix.

[charlie knighton]

Hayes, you did well.....do not see much chestnut, great size....thanks for sharing

[Wes Ramsey]

I don't have much C&C as far as the form though it is pretty, but the wood is gorgeous! Fragile or not, it looks fragile, and that always seems to catch my eye.

[John Keeton]

Horse Chestnut, aka Buckeye, sure can produce some beautiful wood at times, and this certainly is a fine specimen. I think you have a pleasing bowl.

There are limitless variations on the ogee curve. A "true" mathematical ogee produces a curve like this -
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Note that the "highest" points on the two opposing curves occur at the midpoint of each curve - or, 1/4 of the distance between the end points.

Considering that, my preference is for those ogee forms that, when a straight edge is laid up against the side, it touches the edge of the foot, the bottom edge of the rim, and the belly of the bowl at a point approximately 1/4 up from the edge of the foot along the straight edge.

One might consider the narrative and the examples of ogee form in Raffan's book, The Art of Turned Bowls. On page 79, he provides a graphic. I have added the straight lines on the graphic for illustration. When one views that graphic, the ones most pleasing to me (perhaps not to everyone) are those where the straight edge touches as described above. The other forms seem strained to me. Again, perhaps not to everyone.
307340

All that said, you have a very nice piece and a drop dead gorgeous piece of wood!

[Hayes Rutherford]

Thanks for the info on this John. I seem to remember this came up a couple of years ago and you posted some info as well as some well done ogee vessels. This time at least one lightbulb is going off. Had i increased the amount of upper inward curvature, this would have lowered the peak of the bottom convex curve slightly. A slightly larger foot may also have been an improvement.

Wes and Charlie, thanks for taking the time.

[allen thunem]

hayes the only way i can see to improve on that beauty is if it were on my mantle:):D

[Eric Gourieux]

Horse Chestnut, aka Buckeye, sure can produce some beautiful wood at times, and this certainly is a fine specimen. I think you have a pleasing bowl.

There are limitless variations on the ogee curve. A "true" mathematical ogee produces a curve like this -
307341
Note that the "highest" points on the two opposing curves occur at the midpoint of each curve - or, 1/4 of the distance between the end points.

Considering that, my preference is for those ogee forms that, when a straight edge is laid up against the side, it touches the edge of the foot, the bottom edge of the rim, and the belly of the bowl at a point approximately 1/4 up from the edge of the foot along the straight edge.

One might consider the narrative and the examples of ogee form in Raffan's book, The Art of Turned Bowls. On page 79, he provides a graphic. I have added the straight lines on the graphic for illustration. When one views that graphic, the ones most pleasing to me (perhaps not to everyone) are those where the straight edge touches as described above. The other forms seem strained to me. Again, perhaps not to everyone.
307340

All that said, you have a very nice piece and a drop dead gorgeous piece of wood!


I need to read this book, as he may answer this question: John, does an ogee require a foot? Wouldn't the height and width of the foot significantly change the straight edge measurements as you describe? How does one "measure" the ogee if there is a very small or no foot?

[Eric Gourieux]

Hayes, you turned a beautiful form from a difficult (and beautiful) piece of wood.

[Thomas Canfield]

Maybe it is a "modified ogee" but still a nice piece and use of the wood. Working with natural sections quite often has the wood define what it will end up being. You did well.

[John Keeton]

I need to read this book, as he may answer this question: John, does an ogee require a foot? Wouldn't the height and width of the foot significantly change the straight edge measurements as you describe? How does one "measure" the ogee if there is a very small or no foot?I can highly recommend Raffan's book! Great source of info on form, etc. As to a foot, it provides a bit of lift and shadow that isn't necessarily needed on a "hemispherical salad bowl." In my opinion, an ogee bowl without a foot isn't particularly appealing.

Hayes questioned the size of the foot, but it is approximately a third of the diameter of the bowl and a larger foot may not work as well. I think there may be a range of "angle" where an ogee becomes a difficult form to pull off. Somewhere north of 40-45* (foot to rim) up to around 70-75* can be a challenging area. Below 45* is usually what one sees in an ogee form. Above 75* can make a very attractive vase form.

Usually, turning a bowl or form upside down will help in assessing whether one is pleased with the result. I have taken the liberty of playing a little with Hayes' image.

This is the original bowl inverted.
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This is after editing the right side (as inverted) to soften the curve a bit - again, not being critical, just posing a possibility.
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This is the modified bowl rotated 180* upright. The modified side is now on the left.
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This is the modified bowl with lines drawn. Doing this, one can see where material was removed.
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As to Thomas' comment, I do think there are many "modified" ogee forms. As I stated, there are limitless variations on the curve. Most often, though, they are simply a "true" ogee curve that has been truncated on one end or the other. The curve remains true, but the "weight" of the convex belly may fall differently in relation to the concave curve.

Thomas also commented that "Working with natural sections quite often has the wood define what it will end up being." Some of us anal and neurotic souls will not let that happen!!:o I am terribly prone to toss an otherwise beautiful piece of wood when it will not conform to my plan - probably not the best approach!!;)

Folks will vary, as well, on which they find most appealing. Hayes asked for comment, and I am just throwing out some thoughts to stir some thought and exchange here. We all view things differently, and as I stated, I think the bowl as turned is a nice piece and pleasing to the eye.

[Adam Petersen]

That is a beautiful piece of work and I learned a lot just reading the posts here! Good stuff!

[Thom Sturgill]

Hayes, that is a beautiful piece of wood and you did it proud. As was said the best improvement would be to place it in *my* display shelf.

John, thank you for the discussion and illustrations. While I took art in school, there is always much to learn and Raffan's book is on my 'buy' list. I am in the process of doing a survey of our club members to find out what they want and sessions on design tied with hollowing for first place in the first batch of survey questionaires.

[Hayes Rutherford]

John, I very much like your analysis and would love to be able to do the same. Photoshop?

Flashing back to the original process, I recall trying to increase the upper curvature and due to the low rpm and flabby turning characteristic accepting where I was at. So truly a case of the wood having a say in the outcome. Had my jaws matched the foot precisely, it may have been a few thousands larger, but just had to remove the small dents.

Thanks all for taking the time. Looks like I will be getting "the book".

[John Keeton]

Hayes, I used Photoshop Elements to do the edit, using the Clone feature to brush in background in order to "remove material" from the bowl and FastStone to draw in the lines. Interestingly, I found the old thread to which I think you referred where a more lengthy exchange took place on the ogee form - http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?178607-Pondering-the-Ogee-Curve-and-a-bowl

For me, the easiest way to achieve an ogee curve is as follows:

1. Flatten the bowl blank, or at least mark where the top surface of the rim will be. One needs to know that before much else can take place.
2. Determine the thickness of the rim (taking into consideration any cove or curvature of the rim) and mark that point.
3. Establish and mark the diameter of the foot equal to approximately 1/3 the diameter.
4. Form a partial cone by turning a straight surface between the bottom of the foot and what will be the bottom of the rim.
5. Mark a point for the belly at 1/4 of the distance between the edge of the foot and the bottom of the rim. This mark should remain through the rest of the process.
6. Establish the foot by making the cut. I like a fairly small foot - 1/4", or slightly more.
7. Roll a convex cut from your 1/4 point mark into where the foot meets the bowl form.
8. Roll a convex curve upward from the 1/4 point sweeping into a concave curve that will flow into the bottom of the rim. The depth of that concave should approximately mirror the convex portion already turned.

Generally, I do not like flat rims on a bowl and prefer a bit of a cove tilting slightly downward toward the rim on an ogee bowl. Or, one could simply follow the outside curve much as you have done on the buckeye bowl.

I also have found that a bowl blank that has a thickness of 1/3 the diameter produces a pleasing ogee bowl. In other words, a 12" bowl that is 4" in height makes for a nice ogee bowl.

Just some additional thoughts, for whatever they may be worth. Please understand that my thoughts reflect my own personal tastes and others may differ in what they feel to be a pleasing form.