Who has the lowest cost laser cutter that'll handle 1/4 wood?

[dirk martin]

Just curious who has the lowest cost laser engraver/cutter out there, that'll cut 1/4" thick basswood.

I don't mind assembling it myself.
I don't mind making multiple passes with the laser.

[Dan Hintz]

China.....

[Mike Troncalli]

That depends.. How many times do you want it to cut before it breaks down, or you get so frustrated with the software that you chunk it out the window and get something that will do the job better... Then what will it cost you to get another machine?

[Dave Sheldrake]

A 1 watt laser will cut 1/4 inch thick wood.....eventually
A 9,000 watt laser will cut 1/4 inch wood so fast it's impossible for any drive system to keep up

Everything else is somewhere in between :)

[Graham Taylor]

Like everything in life - you get what you pay for and to me, peace of mind, reliability, support etc is well worth the extra because it will even out in the long run

[Bill George]

I have a true 40 watt GWeike machine ( replaced the tube) that cuts 1/4 inch cedar, A true 50 watts would be better and faster. The eBay ones rated at 50 watts are more likely a true 30 watts... maybe. Low cost Good Chinese machine, check with Ray Scott at Rabbit Laser USA.

For better quality Trotec or any of the Made in USA machines.

[dirk martin]

How about some numbers, guys?
How much do the cheap ones from China cost?
How about a more reliable one?
I'm thinking something entry level, around 40 watts?

[Wilbur Harris]

A 60W Chinese laser will probably do what you want to do - 80W maybe better. You'll regret not having a USA machine daily but if you don't have that kind of cash to spend it's an easy choice. Some types of wood are more difficult to cut than others and multiple passes are often not good.

Ray Scott can help largely if you don't want to fool with the Chinese vendors but you can save a little there (China-Shenhui, Gweike, etc...). It takes a while to get one from China and Ray likely has one on hand, will set it up, make sure it works, and help out in any way possible. I wouldn't have bought a machine from China if I had no idea. I really didn't have ANY idea but believed I did when I ordered one :)

My internals haven't quit rolling yet and I've had this big laser for about 3 weeks. My first laser was a used deal that Ray delivered and I don't remember any grief at all - was making stuff before nightfall.

BUT, I need to say that you should know the differences in a chinese machine and a USA machine so you can make the correct choice. For me, it was a simple choice (money). For somebody else, I wouldn't venture a guess.

[Matt McCoy]

Here's a start:

Boss Laser
Full Spectrum Laser
Rabbit Laser USA
Lightobject
Automation Technology Inc.

[Wilbur Harris]

A 60W Chinese Laser runs somewhere around $7800 (Ray Scott). The USA lasers, Trotec, ULS, Epilog are considerably higher! I'm thinking you get what you pay for either way. There's a Trotec machine at work that I would almost kill to have - but it cost more than I'm willing to pay and nowhere in the ball park on the size.

[Mike Troncalli]

Here's a start:

Boss Laser
Full Spectrum Laser
Rabbit Laser USA
Lightobject
Automation Technology Inc.

Matt gave a nice list of some good lower cost machines that are still reliable.. I guess the question to you is. How much do you want to spend.. Stay away from anything that ebay has in the $700.00 - $1500.00 range (New).. I would say to get into something that is going to be reliable and do what you want you will be looking at somewhere around $3500.00 to start..

[Rich Harman]

You'll regret not having a USA machine daily but if you don't have that kind of cash to spend it's an easy choice.

I certainly don't regret not having a USA machine. There is nothing of consequence that a USA machine can do for me* that my Chinese machine cannot - and I saved about $40k.

* I almost exclusively cut with my laser. I am not an engraver. If I engraved more, and had the business to keep it busy engraving, then the extra money for a USA machine would make sense.

[Bill George]

We get people all the time on here with eBay machines, and some don't work. Then they post questions, already either have the answers or don't want to believe the answers they do get and start arguments. Can't believe the eBay seller lied to them about the power and the warranty. Same old story, time after time. Cheap sells.
Either buy from a US vender, or have lots of experience repairing and using lasers.

[Bert Kemp]

So far I love my Rabbit and have had no significant problems with the machine, I did have problems with software but it was my not knowing and not the software. My 60 watt cuts 1/4 pretty easily and 1/8 like butter. and it engraves pretty good also. An equivalent machine from the big 3 would be many thousands more. Go Rabbit or was that go Pats oops time to change the avatar:D

[Mike Null]

Bert


Are you serious?
An equivalent machine from the big 3 would be many thousands more.

There is no Rabbit that's the equivalent of the "big 3" machines.

[Jerome Stanek]

I have a 60 watt I bought from Automation Technologies and it has paid for itself I would still be working on paying off a Trotec and my laser cuts just as fast as a Trotec. I don't do engraving except for myself.

[Mike Troncalli]

Bert


Are you serious?

There is no Rabbit that's the equivalent of the "big 3" machines.

Mike Null, Define Equivalent ?

[Scott Shepherd]

Mike Null, Define Equivalent ?

Speed/accuracy/engraving quality/features???????

[Mike Troncalli]

Here's my point... I am all about American Made.. No doubt about it.. Nor would I ever repute that the big 3 are better machines.. However... I think at some point you just end up in a big ol' pissin contest for no good reason... A really good Automation, Giwelke, Rabbit (rebranded of course).. All do a pretty darned good job of engraving... Quality, bullcorn.. I have engraved a "registered trademark" on the side of a logo which was no bigger than a pen head and you could still make it out.. Even took a magnifing glass to see it... Accuracy. I have gone over the same engraving 3 - 4 different times and every single layer was in the EXACT same spot.. I have had to use calipers for some very detailed work and the fit was perfect..

Features, well I guess that is subjective.. any engraving is going be as good (or bad) as the quality of the file sent to it.. Laser do two things.. Engrave or cut.. I would say all of them pretty much fit into that statement.. Some better than others but still do the same 2 things...

Quality of machine, Well... sure... American made better quality.. That statement speaks for itself... BUT... I'll bet you that a whole lot of parts on the big three are imported... sometimes even the same parts that are on the lower cost machines... And just go through the threads here... I've seen plenty of posts from Epilog, Trotec, etc, users with faulty parts...

My laser (which I just sold) was over 2 years old.. and in that time the only thing I ever had to do to it was replace the tube.. and that was due to the amount of usage (A LOT).. It was a very solid machine.. I am waiting on shipment for a new Full Spectrum 5th generation laser which was designed and made in America. I also have had some experience running an Epilog as well. And I'll admit, a very fine machine it is.. But the engraving quality was no better than my machine..

I guess to sum it all up, at some point defining equivalent can be pretty subjective as to the end results... Even if my lower cost machine breaks down.. I could purchase 10 of them for the price of one of the big 3...

[Scott Shepherd]

If you really believe that the quality, speed, performance, features, and support are the same on Chinese versus Western, then there's nothing to talk about. However, on this forum, problems with Chinese machines run about 10-1 Chinese vs. Western. Every single day, the entire front page is virtually nothing but "I need help with my Chinese machine", "laser won't fire, now what", and most of those fixes involve the end user measuring voltages or doing something like that.

I'm happy you had a super fast, accurate machine. That's the exception to the rule. Any time you want to put your machine head to head with mine (the Universal or the Trotec), just let me know and I'll post files we can use for extensive testing. Just be aware those files will be complex files, not circles and squares, 2 on a sheet.

A Chinese machine might be all you need, but just because that's all YOU need doesn't mean that's all everyone else in the world needs. Many of us run job shops and we see a huge variety of products which requires some pretty unique features that help us be productive.

Chinese works for you, for us, we've have lost probably $100,000 in work in the last 3 years with jobs we would have had to turn down because of the limitations of those CO2 machines.

All you have to do is look through the Chinese laser help threads and you'll see more examples than you can count about engraving limitations. We're not making this stuff up to say we have something better than someone else, we're simply reading the posts by the actual owners. And most of the time, they spend days with their machines down, then they end up resolving their issues by fixing something on the machine themselves, and after being down for a week (lost revenue in our world), they come back and post "My machine is AWESOME, it's the best, never gives me any trouble".

There was a member that used to post here but doesn't any longer. He'd constantly say how great his machine was. Then he'd post example on how the quality wasn't there and he'd say how many hours or days he's spent trying to make something work, and in the end, it wouldn't produce the quality. Then, a few days later, he'd tell everyone how great his machine was and it does everything perfect. There must have been 10 posts where he showed quality issues he couldn't overcome, and then he'd come right back and say how amazing the machine was.

[Mike Troncalli]

Scott, I agree with you...

I know.. after my long winded post it sounds like I am contradicting myself. As I originally said, no contest on the big 3 being better.. But.. that being said, for the $$ you can still get a very good quality Chinese machine that for the everyday user will more than do the job.. The original poster wanted to know what machine to get for the lowest $$ that would cut 1/4" material.. You don't need a 30K machine to do that.. You can get excellent results with a 5k - 10k machine... Also in one of my first posts I said do not buy one of the ebay $700.00 machines... Those truly are junk....

I just wished Apple made lasers :D

[Clark Pace]

Please don't take this wrong. But sometimes I feel that if I don't have a USA made laser your looked down a upon a bit. Do I wish I had universal laser? Sure. I actually had one many, many years ago. It was a good machine. But do I regret buying a china laser? NO.

Right now, it is what works for me. Have I had any problems? A few, but nothing to scream about, and I've been able to fix the problems myself. Did I have problems with my USA laser. Yes, some. One thing I like about my China laser is that I feel that I can do stuff myself. That is I'm working on a $3000 dollar machine not a 25k dollar machine, and if I mess up the parts are pretty in-expensive to replace.

Now I know some of you have had bad experiences with China lasers, and perhaps I have been lucky. But I am a very satisfied customer. I have worked on 7 different china lasers, and 3 American ones.

I would say a China laser is good for the hobby person, part time laser business, and in some case for full production depending on what you do.

So those of you deciding on what do to when buying a laser. I would not turn away a China made laser, just because it's made from China. (buy direct though not ebay, or buy a china laser with USA support. Rabbit etc...)

There are lots of good posters here you can give you there experienced information.


Oh yes, and it's not always that tool that make the job great, it's person behind the tools? I have competed with local laser companies, and even though my machine is not a Universal laser, my products end up looking better.

That's my rant :)

[Lee DeRaud]

I just wished Apple made lasers :DBased on their normal engineering/marketing models, an Apple laser would cost $1K per watt and require a return to the factory to replace the tube.

[Scott Shepherd]

Clark, I hope you aren't getting that from reading my posts. I have said probably 100 times or more on this forum that Chinese lasers work well for some people and some applications. Would I recommend a Chinese laser to a stay at home Mom looking to start up a small business? Certainly not. Would I recommend one to someone that's electronic savvy or likes to figure things out if/when issues arise? Sure.

I don't care what anyone else owns, other than us. Want to buy 50 Chinese machines, knock yourself out. Want to buy 2 Epilogs? Knock yourself out. It's your money and your business you need to do what's right for you. I don't get commission checks from any laser manufacturer, so I have no skin in the game.

[Mike Troncalli]

Based on their normal engineering/marketing models, an Apple laser would cost $1K per watt and require a return to the factory to replace the tube.

I know.. I just had to put that in there... ALL IN FUN ... But it would run forever and their customer service would be the best.... Boy am I stirring up a hornets nest here or what......

[Matt McCoy]

If you really believe that the quality, speed, performance, features, and support are the same on Chinese versus Western, then there's nothing to talk about. However, on this forum, problems with Chinese machines run about 10-1 Chinese vs. Western. Every single day, the entire front page is virtually nothing but "I need help with my Chinese machine", "laser won't fire, now what", and most of those fixes involve the end user measuring voltages or doing something like that.

I'm happy you had a super fast, accurate machine. That's the exception to the rule. Any time you want to put your machine head to head with mine (the Universal or the Trotec), just let me know and I'll post files we can use for extensive testing. Just be aware those files will be complex files, not circles and squares, 2 on a sheet.

A Chinese machine might be all you need, but just because that's all YOU need doesn't mean that's all everyone else in the world needs. Many of us run job shops and we see a huge variety of products which requires some pretty unique features that help us be productive.

Chinese works for you, for us, we've have lost probably $100,000 in work in the last 3 years with jobs we would have had to turn down because of the limitations of those CO2 machines.

All you have to do is look through the Chinese laser help threads and you'll see more examples than you can count about engraving limitations. We're not making this stuff up to say we have something better than someone else, we're simply reading the posts by the actual owners. And most of the time, they spend days with their machines down, then they end up resolving their issues by fixing something on the machine themselves, and after being down for a week (lost revenue in our world), they come back and post "My machine is AWESOME, it's the best, never gives me any trouble".

There was a member that used to post here but doesn't any longer. He'd constantly say how great his machine was. Then he'd post example on how the quality wasn't there and he'd say how many hours or days he's spent trying to make something work, and in the end, it wouldn't produce the quality. Then, a few days later, he'd tell everyone how great his machine was and it does everything perfect. There must have been 10 posts where he showed quality issues he couldn't overcome, and then he'd come right back and say how amazing the machine was.

Hi Scott: I believe that the big three make very good machines. I also believe that they are way too expensive for a lot of people and for the price of a Trotec, for instance, you can get a fist full of G. Weikes. This may suit some people, although it may not work for you. An affordable machine may not have the features you require, but they do still have the two useful ones - cut and engrave. For instance, I have an 80 Watt Chinese machine that will do both of those on a 24 x 18" plywood sheet, of about a hundred complex pieces that fit together, in under an hour. This works well for what I want to do.

Just for grins, I typed "problem Chinese" in the SMC search bar and it pulled up over 4,000 results. I then typed "Epilog problem" and received over 6,000. I did not try Universal or Trotec. My point is that every machine will have problems and it might not be realistic to guesstimate which is the more reliable machine by what appears on the front page of a forum. I have no idea what the ratio of Chinese vs. Western machines is, but I'm inclined to think that there are probably more Chinese lasers in the wild with first-time users; ergo, the appearance of more issues.

It looks like Dick is interested in an inexpensive 40 W laser to cut 1/4" wood, so the big three are out anyway.

[Scott Shepherd]

Matt, like I said, we would have lost over $100,000 in work over the last several years because we could not have done certain jobs. We have repeat work that we do often and it's not something you could do with the typical Chinese machines. So is there value there for us? Nope. Will you see the same opportunities as we have that would rule out owning a Chinese machine? I have no idea. I can only speak for us and the work we do. Our machines have paid for themselves quite easily.

I would suspect you would see a lot of Epilog posts, but know that Epilog was mentioned on this forum for a decade. It wasn't until Rodney Gold really went to China and unleashed the wave of people on here buying them, that we've seen the problems explode.

The difference is, if I have an Epilog, I pick the phone up and call them and the problem is resolved by their tech support. You don't have that option with most Chinese machines. If you took this forum away, and the support that people like Dave Sheldrake have given, then who would all these people be contacting? They are already coming here because it's quicker and easier. So they are using US as the tech support for the Chinese systems. Take the forum away and where do you go? However, take the forums away and Epilog still has support.

Like I said, I don't care what you do, just be honest about it and don't post problem after problem after problem, and the next week tell everyone how you've not had any problems and the machine is awesome.

[Mike Troncalli]

Matt, like I said, we would have lost over $100,000 in work over the last several years because we could not have done certain jobs. We have repeat work that we do often and it's not something you could do with the typical Chinese machines. So is there value there for us? Nope. Will you see the same opportunities as we have that would rule out owning a Chinese machine? I have no idea. I can only speak for us and the work we do. Our machines have paid for themselves quite easily. .

Scott, I have a question, and this is out of pure ignorance on my part.. What is it that the Chinese machines couldn't do that yours can that made you lose 100K in jobs?

[Bill George]

I see problems posted on here with Epilog (or other USA machines) and Chinese. I purchased Chinese to test the market and I know enough CNC and electrical to do my own repairs. The Chinese machines are built with PSU, controllers and driver modules that can be sourced just about anywhere, and for the most part interchangeable. The Epilog and other machines require proprietary motherboards, stepper / servo motors and the like.

[Matt McCoy]

I see problems posted on here with Epilog (or other USA machines) and Chinese. I purchased Chinese to test the market and I know enough CNC and electrical to do my own repairs. The Chinese machines are built with PSU, controllers and driver modules that can be sourced just about anywhere, and for the most part interchangeable. The Epilog and other machines require proprietary motherboards, stepper / servo motors and the like.

Good post.

Scott: It's my understanding that Messrs. Gold and Sheldrake use Chinese machines in high-volume production work. NO?

Fortunately, this forum does exist and is helpful for those interested in learning, maintaining, or repairing their laser.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I'm not entering the Chinese vs Western debate.

The answer to the original question is: Do you want to be cheap or do you want to be reasonable? If you want to be cheap, go on eBay and buy the cheap "40w" laser. It will cut 1/8" material. The machine is universally understood to be a piece of crap, but it will still do the job, sometimes. If you want to be reasonable, you'll buy a 50-60W small stand alone Chinese laser or a used 25-35W Western machine. It will cost you $3-5k but that's what it costs to get the job done in a reasonable fashion. You'll run into problems here and there, but you went on the cheaper side and you'll have to cope with it.

It's unrealistic to expect to buy a laser and spend under $3k. I'd budget for at least $5k.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott, I have a question, and this is out of pure ignorance on my part.. What is it that the Chinese machines couldn't do that yours can that made you lose 100K in jobs?

Very small text, 3 pt. lowercase, things like PCB masks out of mylar that's cut at .8% power, lots and lots of engraving very small things at high speeds, high quantity parts with holes that need to be very precise on their sizes, etc. Lots and lots of things. We have a fair number of things we do in the very low power range. Jobs that require a programmable Z movement in the middle of the job (which we do a lot of).

I don't see any of it as a debate on Chinese or Western. Who said it has to be either one of them? That's not my decision to make, I can only share my experiences with actual work we do.

People like Dave do use a lot of Chinese lasers, but if I understand him correctly, the vast majority of things he does with them in vector cutting, not engraving. Engraving is where the machines become VERY different.

Like I keep saying, I couldn't care less what anyone buys, but what I do think is important it to understand that a $4000 Chinese machine is NOT the same as a $25,000 Trotec, Universal, or Epilog. It's simply not apples to apples.

[Mike Troncalli]

Cool, thanks for an excellent reply, I do appreciate it.

[Bert Kemp]

Mike ,
I'm just referring to size and power. The OP is obviously concerned more with price and a machine that can cut 1/4 ply or acr, not with all the bells and whistles that the big 3 have. Also from what I've been reading here on the forum the big 3 aren't with out their problems either, mechanical or support wise. So from my stand point I got a great machine that so far has no problems and I get great Support from Ray and his crew at Rabbit USA , for many thousands less then what one of the big 3 cost.
Just curious Mike have you ever seen and operated a 6040 Rabbit, seen the construction and how easily it operates. I have seen Epilogs and ULS up close and personal so I know what they are and how they run and sure if I had and 10 or 12000 on top of what I paid for my rabbit and I was running a fast paced business I might own one.

Bert


Are you serious?

There is no Rabbit that's the equivalent of the "big 3" machines.

[Scott Shepherd]

Also from what I've been reading here on the forum the big 3 aren't with out their problems either, mechanical or support wise.

Count the number of issues with Chinese machines vs. Universal or Trotec problems and let me know how they even remotely compare to the problems people post daily with Chinese machines. How many posts have you posted where you're having issues, yet you continuously say that you'd had no problems?

[Ross Moshinsky]

Count the number of issues with Chinese machines vs. Universal or Trotec problems and let me know how they even remotely compare to the problems people post daily with Chinese machines. How many posts have you posted where you're having issues, yet you continuously say that you'd had no problems?

Chinese machine owners don't exactly have a 1800 number to call if they have an issue. If the big boys started charging for tech support, I'd expect the number of issues with other machines to increase.

I know I spent a lot of time talking to Universal about my new to me laser when I first got it. If I bought it from G. Weike, I'd be on here instead.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I have Western made, Japanese made and Chinese made

Western very reliable with excellent support
Japanese, makes western look like cheap junk
Chinese, be prepared for problems

Prices...you pays your money and makes your choice :)

[Clark Pace]

Chinese machine owners don't exactly have a 1800 number to call if they have an issue. If the big boys started charging for tech support, I'd expect the number of issues with other machines to increase.

I know I spent a lot of time talking to Universal about my new to me laser when I first got it. If I bought it from G. Weike, I'd be on here instead.

Actually Gweike does have tech support voice and video through skype. Sure you have to stay up late, due to the time difference. But I used my android video phone for tech support. Not sure about shenhui? Or redsail.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I was a big supporter of G Weike...until my email started filling up with unresolved problems ;)

[Clark Pace]

I was a big supporter of G Weike...until my email started filling up with unresolved problems ;)


I am not a fan of Gweike either, but they do have voice and audio tech support. But I will say. In just about every product made there will will be lemons out there. USA, German, China etc...

[dirk martin]

I should point out, that I'm also running a Compucarve CNC, which we all know are full of issues, and I'm getting along fine with that.
I will easily take the time for simple trouble shooting and repair, to save thousands of dollars.
I don't mind being very hands on.

[Dave Sheldrake]

People like Dave do use a lot of Chinese lasers, but if I understand him correctly, the vast majority of things he does with them in vector cutting, not engraving. Engraving is where the machines become VERY different.

Scotty is quite right, I have likely more Chinese made lasers than anybody here BUT they get used for brutal vector cutting at speed, for engraving? waste of time and effort, the beam quality compared to an RF system and Western optics just isn't there so for engraving I use either Japanese or Western made stuff (not that I do much engraving these days)

In simple terms, Western laser are superior to Chinese made in pretty much ALL respects, all you have to consider is

1: Do you need that better quality?
2: Can you afford or will your business model support that better quality?
3: Do you need support or can you rely on sporadic / non existent Chinese help lines?

Overall I have imported ONE Chinese machine direct.....never again!!, I've made a lot of mistakes over the years but thankfully I have learned from them and never made the same one twice.

Home country supplied Chinese works for me for cutting....for anything else it has to be Western or Western made components in a Chinese machine (such as SPI sources in Galvo's etc)

One pet hate of mine is my email that regularly fills up with problems from direct Chinese imports, they have a "Check this" sheet that once it becomes exhausted support just dies and the buyer is left high and dry.

cheers

Dave

[Chuck Stone]

Please don't take this wrong. But sometimes I feel that if I don't have a USA made laser your looked down a upon a bit.

I would modify that a bit.. more often lately, the people who really need a better machine but opt
to get the cheap machines on Ebay look down on US because we're fools for spending too much money.
The problem is that the people who buy those machines often don't understand enough yet to know
whether their purchase will actually do anything the need it to do.
When this happens, they lower their expectations till the machine fits their needs.
They have an emotional investment in the equipment.. they spent their hard earned money on it and
they WANT to love that machine. They HAVE to!

But as Scott mentioned, they'll come in and tell everyone how wonderful everything is with their
machine. And this leads others to believe that there is no value in buying the better equipment.
THIS will ruffle some feathers for sure. Especially with the number of people who use forums like
this and expect the users here to supply the missing tech support they saved money on.

At their most basic, you have a laser tube, a lens and a motion system. Watt for watt, with
identical lenses, a $500 machine and a $200,000 machine will cut the same material at the same
speed. So it isn't the laser beam that makes a difference.

But how long will the laser tube last? Does the lens coating come off when you clean it? Does
the software present the information in a way that you can understand? Does your motion system
sound like tank treads when it moves? Does it move smoothly?
(how are you coming along with those tetracontakaihexagons? Oh, those are circles?
Sorry, my mistake. )

There's a reason some of these machines cost less than 2% as much as others, and it isn't
98% stupidity on the part of the buyers. They're leaving something out. Something important.
And most likely a WHOLE LOT of important somethings.

But often the users don't know enough yet to realistically evaluate their pending purchase. So
they look at the only thing they do understand .. the money.
If someone told you that you could buy a brand new car for $479 (delivered) when other
people are paying $30,000, wouldn't you think there's a problem somewhere?

I don't really see people looking down on those who purchase imported machines. But I do see
less patience for people who have unrealistic expectations or those who want other people to
take up the slack for their own lack of research. And almost no patience for those who seem to
laud it over others how much money they saved and how foolish the rest are for spending so
much money. It's like watching someone speeding down the highway flipping the bird to all the
other drivers when the rest of us know that a half mile ahead is a speed trap..

[Bert Kemp]

Chuck how true that last statement is. When I was home last summer I was staying in Campton,NH going up 93 from Plymouth to Campton on My bike both sides of the northbound lane has these big lime green Triangle signs 3 evenly space about 50 ft apart on each side that say (STATE TROOPERS AHEAD) speed limit is 70 I'm going 75 and the flatlanders (Chuck knows who I mean) are passing me like I'm standing still. Well around the next bend here's a NH State Trooper standing in the middle of the highway pointing at cars to pull over and 6 chase cars lined up in the break down lane. I can't for the life of me figure these idiots out. Hey heres a 45 point it at your head and pull trigger. Gessh Caution they live among us:eek:



I would modify that a bit.. more often lately, the people who really need a better machine but opt
to get the cheap machines on Ebay look down on US because we're fools for spending too much money.
The problem is that the people who buy those machines often don't understand enough yet to know
whether their purchase will actually do anything the need it to do.
When this happens, they lower their expectations till the machine fits their needs.
They have an emotional investment in the equipment.. they spent their hard earned money on it and
they WANT to love that machine. They HAVE to!

But as Scott mentioned, they'll come in and tell everyone how wonderful everything is with their
machine. And this leads others to believe that there is no value in buying the better equipment.
THIS will ruffle some feathers for sure. Especially with the number of people who use forums like
this and expect the users here to supply the missing tech support they saved money on.

At their most basic, you have a laser tube, a lens and a motion system. Watt for watt, with
identical lenses, a $500 machine and a $200,000 machine will cut the same material at the same
speed. So it isn't the laser beam that makes a difference.

But how long will the laser tube last? Does the lens coating come off when you clean it? Does
the software present the information in a way that you can understand? Does your motion system
sound like tank treads when it moves? Does it move smoothly?
(how are you coming along with those tetracontakaihexagons? Oh, those are circles?
Sorry, my mistake. )

There's a reason some of these machines cost less than 2% as much as others, and it isn't
98% stupidity on the part of the buyers. They're leaving something out. Something important.
And most likely a WHOLE LOT of important somethings.

But often the users don't know enough yet to realistically evaluate their pending purchase. So
they look at the only thing they do understand .. the money.
If someone told you that you could buy a brand new car for $479 (delivered) when other
people are paying $30,000, wouldn't you think there's a problem somewhere?

I don't really see people looking down on those who purchase imported machines. But I do see
less patience for people who have unrealistic expectations or those who want other people to
take up the slack for their own lack of research. And almost no patience for those who seem to
laud it over others how much money they saved and how foolish the rest are for spending so
much money. It's like watching someone speeding down the highway flipping the bird to all the
other drivers when the rest of us know that a half mile ahead is a speed trap..

[Roy Nielsen]

Dirk,

How large would your largest items be? Need to know to determine approximate bed size.

Would you need to do any/much engraving or mostly/completely cutting?

How many items per day will you need to cut and/or engrave?

I lucked into a lightly used good sized G.Weike machine a couple years ago at a very good price. For my hobby use of mostly cutting 1/8" birch ply it has been pretty good; engraving is only so-so in my opinion.

[Clark Pace]

I would modify that a bit.. more often lately, the people who really need a better machine but opt
to get the cheap machines on Ebay look down on US because we're fools for spending too much money.
The problem is that the people who buy those machines often don't understand enough yet to know
whether their purchase will actually do anything the need it to do.
When this happens, they lower their expectations till the machine fits their needs.
They have an emotional investment in the equipment.. they spent their hard earned money on it and
they WANT to love that machine. They HAVE to!

But as Scott mentioned, they'll come in and tell everyone how wonderful everything is with their
machine. And this leads others to believe that there is no value in buying the better equipment.
THIS will ruffle some feathers for sure. Especially with the number of people who use forums like
this and expect the users here to supply the missing tech support they saved money on.

...............

Hi,

Again it depends on what you are doing, your experience, your fix it skills etc.. Like I mentioned before I owned 2 USA lasers(Universal), and ran 2 others. So I am very familiar with the differences. I am just going to say that a USA machine may not be right for all people. A China made or China made US supported may be the way for many out there. In my case I do a lot of vector cutting 90% and the Chinese machine well for me. The engraving portion is slower, but all pretty good. Not as good as the Universal Lasers.

If you are a hobby person a $20,000 machine vs a $3000 may mean the difference between not even getting a laser if the China versions did not exist. I purchased a $500 China laser(from ebay), and while it in no way compared to my $3000 dollar machine, and of course did not compare to my universal lasers I had a lot of fun, and learned a lot.

Here are some pictures from my actual Sub $1000 laser machine. I engraved cut acrylic. I sold it when I got my Redsail.

So please. I'm not looking down on people that buy USA lasers (as a purchaser myself), I just think that not checking all your options before you buy would be silly).

307688307689307690307691307692

[Dave Sheldrake]

or those who want other people to
take up the slack for their own lack of research.

Well worth quoting again!!

"I saved $5,000 by direct importing, by the way, my laser has gone wrong can you help me fix it"

It's the very reason the help and support section vanished from my own forums, I'll happily help anybody but when I get told I'm totally wrong about imports and then the very same people ask me to then help them fix their import I eventually run out of patience!
I truly love helping people, I get royally ticked off though when people ask a question with a pre-requisite for the answer they want to support their own position then argue with the answer they asked for because it wasn't the one they expected or required.


When this happens, they lower their expectations till the machine fits their needs.

Never a more truthful word spoken Chuck ;)

[Scott Shepherd]

I am just going to say that a USA machine may not be right for all people. A China made or China made US supported may be the way for many out there.

I don't think you'll find many people here disagreeing with you Clark. It's been said about 1000 times, there is no "right" machine, it's all relative to one's experience, budget, expectations, and business model.

[Clark Pace]

Well worth quoting again!!

"I saved $5,000 by direct importing, by the way, my laser has gone wrong can you help me fix it"

It's the very reason the help and support section vanished from my own forums, I'll happily help anybody but when I get told I'm totally wrong about imports and then the very same people ask me to then help them fix their import I eventually run out of patience!
I truly love helping people, I get royally ticked off though when people ask a question with a pre-requisite for the answer they want to support their own position then argue with the answer they asked for because it wasn't the one they expected or required.



Never a more truthful word spoken Chuck ;)

You are right. When getting a China Laser it's very,very important that people do their research. And many people don't know what they are getting into. They think a laser is a laser. And I'm glad there are people here willing to help out. Company support is very important.

Since having to sell my USA lasers many years ago I am happy that I have any kind of laser at all now. Without the china option, I would not have a laser at all. Sorry to have stirred up the POT too much. Happy to here on sawmillcreek.

[Chuck Stone]

I don't think you were pot stirring.. My point was I see something different than you do.
There's room for all viewpoints, even the wrong ones like yours. HA!!!!

Kidding.. and my machine comes from Taiwan.

[Clark Pace]

I don't think you were pot stirring.. My point was I see something different than you do.
There's room for all viewpoints, even the wrong ones like yours. HA!!!!

Kidding.. and my machine comes from Taiwan.

Taiwan Huh? Japanese products are actually notorious for having tight production controls. And the cost shows it? So how good your the Taiwan laser? I went to Japan a few years ago for business and it was nice place.

[Chuck Stone]

I have a GCC Mercury, about 15 years old. It's a tank.
It's about what you'd expect from a 15 yr old machine, it needs some
TLC from time to time. But it's on par with the US machines in the same
class. 30w Synrad tube, 18x24 bed with front and rear pass-through for
oversized items. Rotary is the lathe style and takes a little getting used
to, but works fine once you know what it does. It runs from a printer
driver, so I can 'print' from most any program.
FWIW, Taiwan isn't in Japan, it's Republic of China

[Rory Shepherd]

Chinese machines may be the cheapest but the tech support is unreliable, if not useless. US-made machines are great for the price you pay, but most hobby users can't afford them. Why not go for a US based company selling Chinese made machines. The prices are affordable and the tech support will be reliable and convenient.

[Keith Winter]

Chinese machines may be the cheapest but the tech support is unreliable, if not useless. US-made machines are great for the price you pay, but most hobby users can't afford them. Why not go for a US based company selling Chinese made machines. The prices are affordable and the tech support will be reliable and convenient.

This is somewhat true Rory but not 100%. Think of hurricane lasers, later called World Lasers or whatever they are called now. Also all the people that buy off ebay from "US based" importers. Those people are right up the creek with the direct import people, no support. To say a Chinese import's US based service is comparable to the service of Trotec or Epilog or Univeral is a complete misnomer. Even the best us based chinese laser support doesn't match the big 3's support, it's simply not possible. They don't have the manpower to man a support desk 12 hours a day and overnight parts and send a tech the next day across the country to you. The big three can and do. The few times I've had an issue with my Trotec they have overnighted the part and been there the next day to fix it. That's part of what you pay for.

[Bert Kemp]

From personal experienced and what I read on this forum and others, Rabbit Laser USA (Ohio), Boss Laser (FL),and Automation Tech (IL) are the 3 USA based companies selling imports that have decent support. Granted its doesn't compare to the big 3 but they do have support and parts on site if you need them.and 40 watts is enough to cut 1/4 but its slow 60 or 80 watts is better.

[Kev Williams]

Old thread brought back... :)

I have a few opinions here...

First is, "the big three". There's more than three. One is made in France. It is in fact, every bit as fast and reliable as any of the "3". But a couple of dozen people on the planet have had issues with the company's customer service, so the praises of other thousands of satisfied customers (ahem) go unnoticed. Oh well, more for me! :) -- and there's more than just 4 too...

Second, on the subject of machine complaints, one reason those praises go unnoticed is because, well-- how often does one log onto to a forum to proclaim "My laser didn't break today, anyone wanna help me celebrate?" Not very often. But if the sucker don't fire just once... ;)

Stats-- I have to wonder, what's the ratio of eastern to western laser owners who frequent this board, or the net in general? Just as a wild guess I'd have to say, roughly 5 to 1 eastern to western. Simply because of the prices. Ok, now just for fun, lets assume that eastern machines only have problems twice as often as westerns. I'm sure many of you would think that figure is low. But, if there is 5x as many people using eastern machines that break down 2x as often, then the number of eastern machine complaints we read about would outnumber western complaints by 10 to 1. Myself, that seems high to me. Even if not, a fail rate only double that of machines costing 6x+ more money isn't all that bad. And of course, I do realize that extra money buys a lot more than less breakdowns.

Hey, it's all just conjecture, but really, how far off could I be?

So in the NOT conjecture department, I own 2 of the big 4, both of which have the "4" badge. Hey, the one's a '97, it was the 'old days' ;) -- AND I own a great big eastern machine. I have nothing but good things to say about all 3 of 'em. And none of them have operated 'flawlessly'. My eastern Triumph is so big it's labeled a "cutting" machine rather than an "engraver". But with the tune-ups and tweaks over the nearly 2 years I've owned it, I can get almost the same quality of engraving out of it as I can the other 2 machines. And when it comes to deep-engraving wood, no contest. Yes, the Triumph has 80w vs 40 and 25w, but the 40w machine takes 3 times as long to engrave wood to 3/16" deep as the Triumph. Would an 80 watt western kick its butt? I doubt it. Might prove to be a snick faster, but not $25,000 faster.

Bang for the buck- My eastern simply can't compete with my western's in several departments: speed, high precision, and likely longevity. BUT, for the work I do with it (and in general around here), it's by far the best cost vs income machine I've ever bought. Even if I have to replace it every 3 years, it will STILL be the best bang for the buck.

And finally, in answer to the original question, "who has the lowest cost laser cutter that'll handle 1/4" wood"--- ME! Not only will it cut 1/4 wood quickly, it'll cut a LOT of it at once! And I paid less than 5 large to my door for the thing...

[Junior hall]

I got a 60 watt BossLaser machine 1620 with the roller and computer and chiller. Yes it is made from China. As they say they go threw it with a fine tooth comb and redo things. They even pack it for shipping so good it took me about 3.5 hours to unpack it with a pry bar. It comes on a pallet in a wooden box and shrink wrapped. The customer support is far above perfect. You can call them any time and they will walk you threw it ,even remote access. Believe me im sure they had to drink a case of beer or some forum of alcohol after they got off the phone with me. When i do call i tell them its the again calling, as i was so lost confused. They stuck threw it with me and helped me with any thing i needed and still helping me. So customer support is far best along with the Bosslaser machines as they do what i want when i need it until now as trying to find out why it started skipping. Its not Bosslasers fault its probably mine again i might have hit a number some where in the program like always

I give BossLaser 10 thumbs up for the machine quality and customer support. Could not have asked for any thing or any company or any customer support better. If i ever do decide on another laser engraver you bet I WILL GO BACK TO BOSSLASER AGAIN

Hope this helps

[Clark Pace]

You'll regret not having a USA machine daily but if you don't have that kind of cash to spend it's an easy choice. Some types of wood are more difficult to cut than others and multiple passes are often not good.



Not true. I have been very happy with my china laser. It ended up costing around $3300 after shipping. And it's paid for. Do it right, and it can get you into the business.

Or another option would also be to lease a USA laser. You can see if lasering is for you.

P.S. I can cut 1/4 on my 50watt just fine.

[dirk martin]

Why is everyone so secretive with make, model, and prices on the lasers they own, or are writting about?

[Lee DeRaud]

Why is everyone so secretive with make, model, and prices on the lasers they own, or are writting about?Eh? I didn't go back and reread this whole thread, but I didn't realize that's what you asked.
ULS VL200 25W, $10K. Of course that was ten years ago, I have no idea what they cost now...

[Bert Kemp]

Rabbit laser, Boss, and Auto tech list their prices right up front on there web sites.



Why is everyone so secretive with make, model, and prices on the lasers they own, or are writting about?

[Kev Williams]

I was 'acting' secretive, but my signature tells all- I have half of the New Hermes/Gravograph factory in my house. Pantograph, several computer engravers, metal shear, plastic shear, beveler, 2 cutter grinders, 2 laser engravers, vinyl cutter, safety saw...

[Lee DeRaud]

Eh? I didn't go back and reread this whole thread, but I didn't realize that's what you asked.
ULS VL200 25W, $10K. Of course that was ten years ago, I have no idea what they cost now...And yes, it will cut 1/4" wood, depending on species.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I was 'acting' secretive, but my signature tells all- I have half of the New Hermes/Gravograph factory in my house. Pantograph, several computer engravers, metal shear, plastic shear, beveler, 2 cutter grinders, 2 laser engravers, vinyl cutter, safety saw...

I can tell you that my Gravograph/NH LS100 engraver is better built and performs better than my new to me ULS VLS6.60. I can also say that the software on the ULS machine is better than the Gravograph machine. Customer service is better with ULS. I'm not sure I'd recommend either machine to someone looking to buy. The ULS machine isn't built well enough to get my recommendation and the Gravograph machine has too buggy of software and their customer service and tech dept are not easy to work with.

[Steve Morris]

Glowforge will do it :D........ I'll get me coat

[Dan Hintz]

Glowforge will do it :D........ I'll get me coat

Let the beatings begin... ;)

[Jeffrey Michael Wilson]

I agree, also have a 50 watt chinese that will cut 1/4 easily. Haven't had too many problems...(a voltage spike that took out everything in my house didn't help), but it was inexpensive, I got it very quickly. Tech support and warranty don't exist.... but I just plain could not afford a USA made machine (probably using the same Chinese parts)..


Not true. I have been very happy with my china laser. It ended up costing around $3300 after shipping. And it's paid for. Do it right, and it can get you into the business.

Or another option would also be to lease a USA laser. You can see if lasering is for you.

P.S. I can cut 1/4 on my 50watt just fine.