The Twins! Pair of LN #4 1/2 Bronze Anniv Planes- sequentially #'d! Not for sale.

[Greg Muller]

THESE ARE NOT FOR SALE!!! IF I EVER DO DECIDE TO SELL, I'LL LIST IN THE CLASSIFIEDS.

NOTE: I had an earlier thread, but it was deleted because I wasn't clear enough that these are not for sale. I got a note from Bruce Page that it appeared to be a thinly veiled sale thread. I did not intend to give that impression. Sorry about that. He didn't move it to the classifieds because I had apparently forgotten to renew my membership here. That's been fixed. I've been a member for years. Most of you know me as Gregory of Sherwood Forest on other forums. My thanks to Bruce for letting me know my error.

Here's the gist;

In 2006 Lie-Nielsen released one of the most collectible and celebrated planes of all time. The LIE-NIELSEN 25TH ANNIVERSARY LIMITED EDITION BRONZE No. 4 1/2 SMOOTHING PLANE. This was limited to 500 and by all accounts, sold out in record time. Many people have pined and kicked themselves stoutly in anguish after not being able to get even one.

Well, not long ago, I was able to acquire not one, but two of these planes. Additionally, they are TWO IN SEQUENTIAL ORDER, numbered 387 and 388. These have become known as "The Twins". They are in pristine, UNOPENED condition, still sealed in the blue protective rust inhibiting bags. The boxes are also in MINT condition. The protective bags haven't even been removed from the boxes. They've lain there since leaving the factory. I even have the original box they were shipped from LN in, with the return label intact and addressed to the original owner. Provenance, that is. To my knowledge, they may be the only two of these that are sequentially numbered unopened planes and owned by one person.

AGAIN, THESE ARE NOT CURRENTLY FOR SALE!! I am looking for opinions as to whether folks think these should be forever kept together as a set, merely because they have sequential numbers. Would that increase the value over two not having sequential numbers?? I do need to get these insured. Interested in your opinions. Thanks!


http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t329/proudpoppag/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/20150214_195805_zpsbnrciozf.jpg


http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t329/proudpoppag/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/20150214_200042_zpsvaohcjxu.jpg

[Greg Muller]

My thanks to Ken for moving this post here. :D

[Dave Zellers]

Well, my opinion is that you sound more excited about these than anyone else is likely to be.

Maybe you should have them bronzed.

Oh wait ...

These were made to be used were they not? If there is a market for them as a collectable then I suppose the 'Twins' have value, but that's hard for me to imagine.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Good for you - you have a unique collector's item. Very nice.

Do you collect other valuable/unique planes / hand tools? If so - Would love to see your collection.

As for me.........I'd be cashed out by now. At my position on the space-time continuum, collectible unused tools in boxes on the shelf - - - does not compute. I'd want users. I have a set of LN planes - my 4-1/2 is steel - with no open slots available nor needed.

However, if I could pick up a quick couple-three thousand simoleons, I'd be long gone, trying to decide between a new bandsaw and a call to Philp Marcou. Holtey is not in the cards, unless something crazy happens on the sale. Either way, they would be put to use, not set on a shelf.

But - to each his own.

Siiiiigh....just a dream. Won't ever happen. Heck - I'm still waiting to get a date with Elle Macpherson. :(

[Joe Bailey]

Well, my opinion is that you sound more excited about these than anyone else is likely to be.

My sentiments exactly. I just suffered through this same post on a competing forum.

[Greg Muller]

Hi Dave, I guess I am a bit excited over the find. I enjoy rusthunting and finding tools in the wild. While these don't qualify as 'rust', they are well made hand planes. I may end up using one of them, but I didn't want rip them open without giving this any thought. The original owner kept them pristine for the last 9 years and for good reason. You'd have to ask Tom Lie-Nielsen if he had these made for the sole purpose of them being used. I honestly don't know, I do know that they were a limited edition and LE's are generally thought to be made for collectible value. They have increased in value.

[Greg Muller]

My sentiments exactly. I just suffered through this same post on a competing forum.

Sorry to intrude on your day, Joe. I'm just trying to get as many opinions as possible.

Just out of curiosity, what forum actually competes with this one? I thought they were all useful and all are around to help each other. It's the way of woodworkers. They aren't selling anything. Maybe next time, just don't open the thread??? :)

[Frederick Skelly]

Thats a neat find Greg. Bet they're sweet. I agree with Dave Z - it seems a shame not to use them. But they probably will be collectable down the line. Id call Lee Richmond at The Best Things and ask your questions of an authority. Another dealer Ive heard good things about - but not personally spoken to - is Josh Clark at Hyperkitten. I dont know if they'd charge a small fee - after all, knowledge is part of their stock in trade. But when you have something potentially valuable .....

[Joe Bailey]

Sorry to intrude on your day, Joe. I'm just trying to get as many opinions as possible.


If that were true, then you should hold the sarcasm and thank me for my opinion.

Surely you know the other forum in which you posted.

[Greg Muller]

I've posted this on 5 other forums and groups, Joe. Your "I just suffered through this same post on a competing forum. " didn't get us off to a very friendly start. I apologize for my sarcasm.

[Joe Bailey]

We're good.

[Mike Brady]

I would say the answer to your dilemma lies in how much you paid for those planes. Their value is probably twice what a single one would be worth. Sometimes multiples of collectible actually drives the value down because they are suddenly "less rare" but that would be if someone owned maybe ten of them. There is a famous story of a guy who literally cornered the market on an item and then discovered that he had killed the demand for them by having so many. It is said that diamonds would basically be worthless if DeBeers ever open their doors on the hordes of them they have stashed away. Unless you got a smok'n deal on these I would guess that the only substantial profit to be made on the LN anniversary planes is by those people who bought them new from LN and kept them unopened, like yours. That original prices was $500. These planes are not hard to find in the resale market.

[lowell holmes]

I can't imagine having a plane and not using it.

That's just me though, "to each his own".

[Derek Cohen]

My thought is this ..

I bought one when they were released because at the time I was a strong supporter of heavy smoothers, and the idea of a bronze #4 1/2 appealed, especially as the cutting angle was higher. The first thing I did on receiving mine was to remove the plastic packaging, clean the metal, sharpen the blade, and put it to work.

I cannot recall what they cost new - $600? Now they are worth about $900 - $1000 after 10 years. Perhaps double this in another 10 or 15 years if left unused. If I wanted something as an investment, I would purchase shares or property. Tools I purchase to use. By using a plane that is set aside for "investment" it has so far cost me about $30 each year. Hardly an investment. Rip off the wrapping and use one.

I'd like to emphasise that the pleasure of owning one of these planes is partly in the exclusivity of having a plane that only 600 others have, as well as in their beauty. They are beautiful planes, which makes woodworking all the more enjoyable. My excitement at receiving one was for this reason, and the Anniversary plane has remained special all these years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jason Beam]

Well maybe i should be glad that my reply to this somehow mysteriously disappeared... but I'll say it again...

I would sell one and use the other for the rest of my life. A perfectly useful tool should get used, not collected - open the package, get some grit on it, make use of it. That's what it's for! :)

[Jim Matthews]

Why not just collect Pokemon cards?

[Chris Hachet]

I would rather seen both heavily worn through responsible use. I would rather also see a vintage muscle car thrashed in anger at a drag strip than babies on a show field. But I am funny that way.

[Jim Koepke]

Greg,

There isn't a single plane in my shop that is there because it may increase in value. Over time, some of them may appreciate in value even though they see regular use.

It is also easy to understand the feeling behind collecting. Coin collecting used to be one of my hobbies.

There is no telling whether or not some collector would rather have two of an item than one. My thought is more collectors would be happy with a single pristine example than having two.

If they were mine, they would most likely be sold to the highest bidder. Maybe on an ebay, Dutch auction style. That is where the highest bidder gets the choice of taking one or all at the winning price. Then I would most likely purchase an old Stanley #4-1/2 in my preferred type and be a happy camper with some extra cash to spend.

Even though my shop is of a decent size there is barely room for all the tools that get used.

Of course if you have the room to set something aside and a spouse who understands, that is a different story.

jtk

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I would love to have a bronze 4 1/2. I wish they made this in a normal unsigned, unnumbered version for us common folk. Without a doubt, split them up. Keep one and sell the other. In fact, if not for the fact that they don't make a bronze 4 1/2 I would say sell both of them and get a normal one to use and enjoy without fear of devaluing it.

As for the added value, I see these a lot on eBay and they often pop up at high prices and then nobody bids, so they lower the price. Selling two of them would require a very special buyer and even then I doubt the sequential numbering will make much difference.

[Chris Hachet]

I would love to have a bronze 4 1/2. I wish they made this in a normal unsigned, unnumbered version for us common folk. Without a doubt, split them up. Keep one and sell the other. In fact, if not for the fact that they don't make a bronze 4 1/2 I would say sell both of them and get a normal one to use and enjoy without fear of devaluing it.

As for the added value, I see these a lot on eBay and they often pop up at high prices and then nobody bids, so they lower the price. Selling two of them would require a very special buyer and even then I doubt the sequential numbering will make much difference.


They do currently make a 4 1/2 Bronze, it is $950, which is kind of silly....

[Maurice Ungaro]

Maybe you should have them bronzed.

Dave, thanks for the coffee spew....

[David Spurr]

I agree that tools are meant to be used. But there are always exceptions. You have two of them. I would hold on to them. Maybe let the kids sell them after I'm long gone. Somebody somewhere will drool enough over them. Just look at the pristine Bedrocks. Just my opinion cuz my most expensive plane cost me 75 bucks on an auction site.

[Dave Zellers]

This is pretty much the coolest thread ever.

Two planes that are not for sale, originally posted in the Classifieds section, moved here at the request of the OP, and all we get is a picture of two open boxes with blue bags and a sticker.

I mean, talk about a tease. Can you at least flash a pic of a knob?

[Brian Ashton]

Curios to know a bit more of the back story. Did you acquire them from someone who was ignorant of what they had, like a widow? Or from someone who knew precisely what they had? If the former is true then maybe you have a relatively small windfall gain. In this day n age a grand doesn't buy much though. If it's the latter then I suspect you're gonna have to hold them for a few decades to make it almost fruitful. And even then I'd say, with all the tool horders out there thinking their stash of NIB planes are good investments, these planes ain't gonna increase in value all that much, at least not before your kids die. But then again if you can think of a way to make LN go bust then all bets are off....


Just another thought about future value. I suspect in about 10 years woodworking tools will start to fall as the horders start karking it and their loved ones start dumping ever increasingly poorly understood and unappreciated collections on the market.

[Chuck Hart]

Originally this was removed because a moderator thought it a for sale item. You don't seem to want opinions Greg so was this a poorly written act of bragging? If it is, wait until none of the other 600 can be found and then ask again. I don't see the sense in buying two identicle planes to keep boxed up. To me you are a collecter not a woodworker so maybe you should post at collecter sites. The whole idea of this post hits me the wrong way. That's my opinion

[Tim Atkins]

Very open attempt at a gloat. Two planes that do the same amount of work. None !

[Joe Leigh]

The whole idea of this post hits me the wrong way. That's my opinion

Mine too.
Gloating about a tool on a woodworking website that you will never use makes no sense.
Right now they belong to the wrong owner.

[Chris Hachet]

Very open attempt at a gloat. Two planes that do the same amount of work. None !

Pretty much this.

[Richard Hutchings]

You've stirred these guys up. Your gloat would be appreciated if you took them out of the package and used them. Do it! Just DO IT!

[Jim Matthews]

Nah. Let him keep his legacy under wraps and 'appreciating'.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Certainly, I think that in this country anyone can do whatever they want with their time, money and stuff. If you want to hoard, have at it. However, I personally think that sequentially numbered LN Planes do not have the same collector factor as, say, sequentially numbered automobiles or firearms. That's just me.

Having said that, I do not know if the OP actually uses hand tools. If he doesn't, then by all means, sell to the highest bidder. If he does, he should sell one, use the other and gloat about the wonderful things that he has made spectacular by smoothing with that thing. If he's looking for advice on how to save his money and make a profit, he came to the wrong place. If he's trying to drum up business, well.....good luck.

[Chris Hachet]

You've stirred these guys up. Your gloat would be appreciated if you took them out of the package and used them. Do it! Just DO IT!

...or better yet, show us something you have actually built using hand tools. That would win much more respect from me, actually.

[Chris Hachet]

Nah. Let him keep his legacy under wraps and 'appreciating'.

Kind of reminds me of once when my wife and I were snuggled up on the couch watching the Barret Jackson automobile auction. A car came across the block with very, very low mileage on it. My wife's comment..."poor car, it never really got a chance to be an automobile."

[Chris Hachet]

Certainly, I think that in this country anyone can do whatever they want with their time, money and stuff. If you want to hoard, have at it. However, I personally think that sequentially numbered LN Planes do not have the same collector factor as, say, sequentially numbered automobiles or firearms. That's just me.

Having said that, I do not know if the OP actually uses hand tools. If he doesn't, then by all means, sell to the highest bidder. If he does, he should sell one, use the other and gloat about the wonderful things that he has made spectacular by smoothing with that thing. If he's looking for advice on how to save his money and make a profit, he came to the wrong place. If he's trying to drum up business, well.....good luck.


They make nice tools, but I have never understood the L-N cult. For the $ of a sequentially numbered #4 1/2 Bronze, I can think of a boat load of Infill planes that I would rather own.

That being said, I do plan on taking off of work to go to the L-N hand tool event in Cinncinati in April.

[Greg Muller]

Yeah, the production of this thread is pretty crappy, in my opinion. I'll have to beat myself up about that a bit.

It was originally in the Neander forum, then deleted because a Mod justifiably thought it was a trolling sales thread in disguise. So, I recreated it with clarification, but in the Classifieds by mistake. Another Mod moved it here for me.

The pics are disappointing, granted, but I'm not going to open these for now. I was looking for advice, and the overwhelming response seems to be that these should be opened and used, even though they were created with collectability in mind. My instinct is to open and use one and sell the other, but it was suggested to me (by folks who are in the tool collectible and sales field) that two sequentially numbered unopened were worth a premium to collectors. So, I'm mulling over my options still. I'm not in a hurry.

In the meantime, I've received loads of emails from folks on both sides of this. The folks that think I should use them seem to be more passionate about their beliefs, to the point of rudeness and reverse snobbery. They are louder and more vociferous, but they are outnumbered by the folks who think these should be left as collectibles.

At least I'm getting opinions. Thank you all.

[Chris Hachet]

Yeah, the production of this thread is pretty crappy, in my opinion. I'll have to beat myself up about that a bit.

It was originally in the Neander forum, then deleted because a Mod justifiably thought it was a trolling sales thread in disguise. So, I recreated it with clarification, but in the Classifieds by mistake. Another Mod moved it here for me.

The pics are disappointing, granted, but I'm not going to open these for now. I was looking for advice, and the overwhelming response seems to be that these should be opened and used, even though they were created with collectability in mind. My instinct is to open and use one and sell the other, but it was suggested to me (by folks who are in the tool collectible and sales field) that two sequentially numbered unopened were worth a premium to collectors. So, I'm mulling over my options still. I'm not in a hurry.

In the meantime, I've received loads of emails from folks on both sides of this. The folks that think I should use them seem to be more passionate about their beliefs, to the point of rudeness and reverse snobbery. They are louder and more vociferous, but they are outnumbered by the folks who think these should be left as collectibles.

At least I'm getting opinions. Thank you all.

Your very welcome, and you have my sincere apologies if you think I was being a reverse snob. That was not at all my intent.

One of my favorite cars owned was a 55 Chevy two door, which I drove everywhere. I just really enjoyed that car, drove it to pick up the babysitter if my wife and I were having an evening out or whatever.

Had an exchange student living with us and enjoyed taking him and some other teens I knew to the shooting range for target practice and to shoot at clay pigeons. People would get downright rude and in my face about driving that thing as a normal car when all I was trying to do was enjoy it.

The way I look at it, some day we will all be dead and what we cherish will be part of a landfill. Better to enjoy it responsibly now.

One option would be to sell the 9 1/2's to a collector, and buy a non numbered 4 1/2 from L-N, and use it. That might be the best option, actually.

But really, the (want to be) collector in me really would prefer an infill if I were buying for other than users....

[Maurice Ungaro]

Yeah, the production of this thread is pretty crappy, in my opinion. I'll have to beat myself up about that a bit.

It was originally in the Neander forum, then deleted because a Mod justifiably thought it was a trolling sales thread in disguise. So, I recreated it with clarification, but in the Classifieds by mistake. Another Mod moved it here for me.

The pics are disappointing, granted, but I'm not going to open these for now. I was looking for advice, and the overwhelming response seems to be that these should be opened and used, even though they were created with collectability in mind. My instinct is to open and use one and sell the other, but it was suggested to me (by folks who are in the tool collectible and sales field) that two sequentially numbered unopened were worth a premium to collectors. So, I'm mulling over my options still. I'm not in a hurry.

In the meantime, I've received loads of emails from folks on both sides of this. The folks that think I should use them seem to be more passionate about their beliefs, to the point of rudeness and reverse snobbery. They are louder and more vociferous, but they are outnumbered by the folks who think these should be left as collectibles.

At least I'm getting opinions. Thank you all.
Greg, here's the deal: nobody knows if you are even interested in new made tools. Your tag line seems to hint that you are a rust hunter. If that's the case, and new tools aren't your thing, you have your answer. That's cool. Plenty of guys prefer old iron and enjoy bringing those tools back to life, wether full on resto jobs, or just making them serviceable and everything in between. You did not mention anywhere what your woodworking habits and preferences are, and most of us on this forum would love to have your opportunity, just so we could own and use that plane.

You are certainly under no obligation to tell us how you came by them, or what your original intent was. However, by even broaching the subject, I suspect you'd like to shave some wood with one of them.

[Greg Muller]

No, Chris, I didn't take that from your comments at all. I've received some email from folks who think that people who collect anything that has value over $1000 is doing it to out of a sense of privilege or snobbery. To be frank, I wouldn't have bought even ONE of these if I hadn't literally fell into this "too good to believe" deal. I was considering a purchase of a bronze #4 for a user.

[Greg Muller]

...or better yet, show us something you have actually built using hand tools. That would win much more respect from me, actually.

Well, aside from my avatar, which is my plane till made with laminated curly cherry ply, trimmed in mahogany and moisture-barrier treated felt, I've made a few hundred pens, mostly from kits, others segmented or kitless. There's also a desk, a couple paneled doors, an end table, a few turned bowls and platters, a bed, and a poor attempt at a mantle clock. None of these are what I would call especially artistic, and my skills aren't what I would consider good enough to be displayed anywhere. I'm sure I haven't made anything near the quality that everyone here has.
I'm not a collector, but my interest has taken me towards the tools themselves also. I have been rehabbing old, barn-fresh tools for a few years now, and sell them (at no profit, I assure you) to my fellow woodworking guild members. I've had hundreds of these old tools come in rusty and neglected, and cleaned them up without damaging them or removing metal. Very few get rejapanned using asphaltum, but most are just cleaned, tuned up and made usable again. I do collect chisels, though. I have a weakness for them.

[Dave Beauchesne]

I may get shot for this, but WTH:

I bought a LN 102 in White Bronze when they offered them a few years ago - ( should have got more than one ) and got it engraved by Layne Zeulke - on the bench as a user and love it.

A real good friend saw it and asked where I got it etc.; he really wanted one - I was able to buy a LN limited edition numbered 102 and 103 at a reasonable price, filed the serial number off the 102, it buffed up nicely and I got it engraved by Layne as well for my friend - presented it to him as a gift. Thrilled to pieces he was.

I kept the 103 for myself, but find myself using the original 102 more than the 103.

All I did was make one less set of the 102/103 LN White Bronze sets available in the future ( 500 were issued IIRC ) .

Blasphemy to some, priceless to me.

Dave B

[Chris Hachet]

Well, aside from my avatar, which is my plane till made with laminated curly cherry ply, trimmed in mahogany and moisture-barrier treated felt, I've made a few hundred pens, mostly from kits, others segmented or kitless. There's also a desk, a couple paneled doors, an end table, a few turned bowls and platters, a bed, and a poor attempt at a mantle clock. None of these are what I would call especially artistic, and my skills aren't what I would consider good enough to be displayed anywhere. I'm sure I haven't made anything near the quality that everyone here has. Forgive me for not wanting to compete.
I'm not a collector, but my interest has taken me towards the tools themselves also. I have been rehabbing old, barn-fresh tools for a few years now, and sell them (at no profit, I assure you) to my fellow woodworking guild members. I've had hundreds of these old tools come in rusty and neglected, and cleaned them up without damaging them or removing metal. Very few get rejapanned using asphaltum, but most are just cleaned, tuned up and made usable again. I do collect chisels, though. I have a weakness for them.

Really neat! My next door neighbor builds stuff out of 2 x 4 lumber along the lines of Anna White. He had a knack for finishing it and making it look good. Just hoping that you were having the joy of building things. For years I restored furniture and seldom built it, now I enjoy building it much more than restoring it.

I have a weakness for chisels also... partly to blame is David Weaver for the addiction, as he got me interested in Japanese chisels which are both great to work with and a work of art IMHO.

Really want to get into turning, but I have so many things I want/need to build right now that it will be next year at least before I can get started. Would love to see what you turned, Greg.

[Chris Hachet]

I may get shot for this, but WTH:

I bought a LN 102 in White Bronze when they offered them a few years ago - ( should have got more than one ) and got it engraved by Layne Zeulke - on the bench as a user and love it.

A real good friend saw it and asked where I got it etc.; he really wanted one - I was able to buy a LN limited edition numbered 102 and 103 at a reasonable price, filed the serial number off the 102, it buffed up nicely and I got it engraved by Layne as well for my friend - presented it to him as a gift. Thrilled to pieces he was.

I kept the 103 for myself, but find myself using the original 102 more than the 103.

All I did was make one less set of the 102/103 LN White Bronze sets available in the future ( 500 were issued IIRC ) .

Blasphemy to some, priceless to me.

Dave B

You gave it a chance to live and make shavings, no harm, no foul.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Greg - Hey - it's all good. You've got a unique collection that you think has value/merit. You asked what we thought, and you got what you asked for - maybe more than you asked for.

People collect all kinds of stuff for all kinds of reasons. None are right, none are wrong. You think these are smart as an investment - then good for you - hang on to them, in the packaging, and test the waters every so often if you decide to cash out - post them as BIN or with a high auction reserve, on the auction site, and see what happens. You are targeting serious collectors, obviously, not users. I know there are lots of those guys out there in the antique collection mode - maybe the modern set will appeal to some of them as well - the sequential numbers seem certain to be unique, IMO.

Me, for example - when I sometimes get drug into an antique place [not very often, thankfully] I search for oddball salt and pepper shaker sets. They don't get used - they don't even really get acknowledged, to be honest. SWMBO thinks I am weird, but just shrugs it off.

I have paid as much as ten bucks for a set. None in bronze, unfortunately. Not holding on to them as an investment - that's for sure.

My favorite: ball mitt pepper holding a baseball salt.

[Pat Barry]

It seems the OP is in the business of buying, restoring, and re-selling old planes. Now the question is, are these two worth more as subsequent serial numbers numbered 387 and 388? I think the answer to that is no. If they were serial numbers 1 and 500 then maybe they would be worth more as a pair than two separately. I suppose serial number 1 will always be worth more as would the last one produced. The rest in the middle, I don't see any significance to sequential or not. As far as keeping them pristine, then I think the answer to that is yes. Anyone wanting to buy one of these will certainly pay more for a virgin tool than a used one. My vote would be to put them away in storage for 20 years or more and then list them for sale (individually but willing to accept premium offers for the both of them). When were these manufactured again? The 25 anniversary of the 25th anniversary tool for example might be huge for collectors.

[Pat Barry]

I may get shot for this, but WTH:

I bought a LN 102 in White Bronze when they offered them a few years ago - ( should have got more than one ) and got it engraved by Layne Zeulke - on the bench as a user and love it.

A real good friend saw it and asked where I got it etc.; he really wanted one - I was able to buy a LN limited edition numbered 102 and 103 at a reasonable price, filed the serial number off the 102, it buffed up nicely and I got it engraved by Layne as well for my friend - presented it to him as a gift. Thrilled to pieces he was.

I kept the 103 for myself, but find myself using the original 102 more than the 103.

All I did was make one less set of the 102/103 LN White Bronze sets available in the future ( 500 were issued IIRC ) .

Blasphemy to some, priceless to me.

Dave B
Why in gods name would you deliberately file off the serial number? To me that seems downright pitiful.

[Greg Muller]

Actually, other than the posts that are simple derision (one of which was hilariously ironic), most of these responses mirror exactly what my initial plans were upon buying these. I planned on buying one for use and letting go of the other, but I kept getting opinions that the sequential numbering of these made them special somehow. I decided to investigate further before opening. I appreciate all the advise given honestly and without judgment.

By the way, these were purchased from the original owner, who knows exactly what they're worth. He bought them from LN and has kept them NIB ever since. He was just ready to let them go.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Pat:

The serial number would have really clashed with the engraving design - In fact, I did the 103 first to determine whether or not the outcome would be acceptable - ( I have a pretty good touch with metal but had never worked with White Bronze before ) so, as a result, I probably have the only LN White Bronze 103 in existence without a serial number! Take that for rare! They never issued a 103 in WB other than the numbered sets as far as I know.

Really though, my thought process was along the lines of what this thread is all about ( to some degree ) - the appreciation from my friend was far more valuable than owning a limited edition set of LN White Bronze planes - the OP was questioning using or not using something / keeping them together - to each his own I suppose. Just like my tattoos; no regrets from me whatsoever several years later - that to me is a good decision.

Dave B

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I just had another thought. If you destroyed one, then the other would become more rare and therefore be more valuable. Having two makes them less rare and appear easy to get.

Sooooo- being the nice guy I am and all- please send one to me and I will ensure it is never seen or heard from again. :-)

[Kent A Bathurst]

I just had another thought. If you destroyed one, then the other would become more rare and therefore be more valuable. Having two makes them less rare and appear easy to get.

Sooooo- being the nice guy I am and all- please send one to me and I will ensure it is never seen or heard from again. :-)


Same offer here - but I will pay shipping for you.

[Rick Thompson34]

I have no care or concern for the plight of these planes, but if Greg were not an established poster here and elsewhere I would almost think the post was intended to be a hand tool version of an Onion headline. If that was his intent, bravo, you sure upset some people with your terrible mistreatment of that inanimate object. Planes are meant to run free and be loved by their families! Won't someone think of the planes?!?!?

[Greg Muller]

Malcolm and Kent, you guys are just too generous. As tempting as it is, I couldn't possibly take advantage of you like that. :D

[Mel Miller]

I've received some email from folks who think that people who collect anything that has value over $1000 is doing it to out of a sense of privilege or snobbery.

I find that comment strange. I collect old tools that I will never use, many costing over $1000., and consider it great fun - not snobbery.

[Daniel Rode]

I'm not a collector of anything. I buy tools to use them exclusively. But I have always had a great love for tools, especially beautifully made and unique tools. So, even though I don't collect, I understand the desire to do so. What I don't understand is the backlash. How could I possibly be upset over what someone else chooses to do with their time and money?

[Jim Koepke]

I'm not a collector of anything. I buy tools to use them exclusively. But I have always had a great love for tools, especially beautifully made and unique tools. So, even though I don't collect, I understand the desire to do so. What I don't understand is the backlash. How could I possibly be upset over what someone else chooses to do with their time and money?

I have to agree Daniel. Some folks feel collecting old tools runs up the price. To me this only seems true for the higher end tool in fantastic condition.

Sadly the backlash you mention has driven at least one very knowledgeable member away from this forum in the past.

What many do not understand is many of the better quality old tools available today was because someone at one time felt it was worth protecting instead of leaving it out in a damp storage shed to rust away.

Though my accumulation of old tools is far from a collection, some might think of it as a hoard. If some valuable "collection worthy" tool came my way it would likely be put up for auction and then the money would be used to purchase one not so pristine to use in my shop. Though if it was a "New Old Stock" SW Hart #4, it would be very tempting to at least give it a test run or two.

jtk

[Malcolm Schweizer]

#14 just popped up on eBay for $1200 buy it now and is still wrapped. There appear to be a number unopened ones out there. I have seen four or five on eBay in the past year. 307359


Although I am not a fan of the practice, I do support it if you are in poor health and your widow doesn't know what they are worth and is prone to garage sales. :-) I got a full set of DMT Diamond stones that way, but I did tell her their true value first, and that sadly I cannot pay that much. She said she really just wanted to see them appreciated. They are!

[Howard Skillington]

"LE's are generally thought to be made for collectible value."

Huh? I think of LE's as being made for working wood.

[Bob Jones]

What's so wrong with collecting stuff? I dare say there would be very few old tools around if it were not for the collector tendencies in all of us. Anyone who has more planes than a number 5 is a collector anyway. Take that :)

[Malcolm Schweizer]

What's so wrong with collecting stuff? I dare say there would be very few old tools around if it were not for the collector tendencies in all of us. Anyone who has more planes than a number 5 is a collector anyway. Take that :)

First, love the verse in your tag line. All the wooden surfboards or boats I build get Job 9:8 on them somewhere. Look it up.

I imagine we are all collectors of sorts. I admit to not letting go of my Stanley C's when I upgraded to LN and Veritas. One difference is they actually get used. I also admit to seeking C's over smooth bottom planes for no other reason than I think the C's are unique, and I just like the machining. I'm not a fan of keeping a new tool in the plastic just because it may be worth more. That said, if a man earns his money and that's what he wants to do with it, then so be it. It is ultimately a hunk of metal, but I do think all the loving work that went into it should be appreciated.

I do hate that it drives up the price. There is a guy right now on eBay wanting $2800 for a VERITAS Tucker Vise. OK just checked and the buy it now is gone and bids are up to $1900. I would love to have one, but I personally don't see it worth that. I would love to have an Emmerson, and probably will when I get the shop I want, but only if I find one under $700.

Speaking of $700, there is an open 4 1/2 bronze, serial no 408, on eBay right now with an opening bid of $700 at the moment. I would almost pay that but don't feel I need it enough to pay that price. I sure do love a heavy smoother.

[Jim Koepke]

All the wooden surfboards or boats I build get Job 9:8 on them somewhere.

An appropriate scripture on a surfboard.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

I think the criticism of wanting a plane for collecting, even if it isn't worth a thousand dollars ( I am guessing these are bellow that each) . . .
I think disparaging that is kind of knee jerk.

I have planes I don't use partly because I was exploring possibilities when I bought them, partly because I just like to look at them. I still enjoy them as such.
I read the other day that Bill Gates still has in his collection the first car he ever drove/owned (a sixties red mustang). Nothing wrong with collections as long as they please the collector.

I even, gasp, have pocket knives I don't carry.
There now you know the worst.

Thanks for posting them
how ever
ahhhhhhhh
I haven't read this whole thread but . . .
the dressing gown is OK I guess but I want to see the lingerie or better yet the, dare I say . . . bare metal !

From past actual experience with buying at least one "collector" special addition LN
I warn you to exercise extreme caution . . .
I bought the 25th Anniversary Woodcraft addition #1 (on clearance sale)(I scored big time . . . (( pause while I strut around the living room like a baby chick that has hunted down and bagged its first bug))) . . .
I bought the plane in the photo as a paper weight to commemorate someone and to remind me of them when ever I saw the plane on my desk.
Now the ugly part . . .
I found the plane taunting me and tempting me to use it.
I resisted. Too small, toooooooo impractical . . . a toy . . .
it kept at me.
I tried just a taste with the tip of my pinky.

Now I am a regular user. I can't stop . . .
the unassuming, petite, though singularly out of the ordinary, yet diabolically cleaver little beast has become a habit with me.

Don't say I didn't warn you.
It will start when you put a cambered blade in one and a finish blade in the other . . .
just to see how they would look . . . you know . . . harmless playful stuff . . . then there will come a time when your regular smoother is dull and your eye catches the glint off one of these siitting in its lighted display cabinet . . . with the alarm system and fortress of invisible laser beams surrounding it . . . that is linked to the security company . . .
annnnnnnd you know the code . . .
oh yah
well maybe just a swipe just to take off that last plane track.
Then back into the cabinet.
No harm done.
Be afraid . . . be very afraid.

[Greg Muller]

Malcolm, it appears that it sold already. That was quick. Apparently, some folks value them in that condition.

[Jim Koepke]

There appear to be a number unopened ones out there.

They are becoming quite common. It is the used ones that are rare. :D

jtk

[Chris Hachet]

They are becoming quite common. It is the used ones that are rare. :D

jtk

I actually really love the patina of a tool that has been used.

[Chris Hachet]

I think the criticism of wanting a plane for collecting, even if it isn't worth a thousand dollars ( I am guessing these are bellow that each) . . .
I think disparaging that is kind of knee jerk.

I have planes I don't use partly because I was exploring possibilities when I bought them, partly because I just like to look at them. I still enjoy them as such.
I read the other day that Bill Gates still has in his collection the first car he ever drove/owned (a sixties red mustang). Nothing wrong with collections as long as they please the collector.

I even, gasp, have pocket knives I don't carry.
There now you know the worst.

Thanks for posting them
how ever
ahhhhhhhh
I haven't read this whole thread but . . .
the dressing gown is OK I guess but I want to see the lingerie or better yet the, dare I say . . . bare metal !

From past actual experience with buying at least one "collector" special addition LN
I warn you to exercise extreme caution . . .
I bought the 25th Anniversary Woodcraft addition #1 (on clearance sale)(I scored big time . . . (( pause while I strut around the living room like a baby chick that has hunted down and bagged its first bug))) . . .
I bought the plane in the photo as a paper weight to commemorate someone and to remind me of them when ever I saw the plane on my desk.
Now the ugly part . . .
I found the plane taunting me and tempting me to use it.
I resisted. Too small, toooooooo impractical . . . a toy . . .
it kept at me.
I tried just a taste with the tip of my pinky.

Now I am a regular user. I can't stop . . .
the unassuming, petite, though singularly out of the ordinary, yet diabolically cleaver little beast has become a habit with me.

Don't say I didn't warn you.
It will start when you put a cambered blade in one and a finish blade in the other . . .
just to see how they would look . . . you know . . . harmless playful stuff . . . then there will come a time when your regular smoother is dull and your eye catches the glint off one of these siitting in its lighted display cabinet . . . with the alarm system and fortress of invisible laser beams surrounding it . . . that is linked to the security company . . .
annnnnnnd you know the code . . .
oh yah
well maybe just a swipe just to take off that last plane track.
Then back into the cabinet.
No harm done.
Be afraid . . . be very afraid.

Actually I am enjoying your sense of humor here.

[Chris Hachet]

Malcolm, it appears that it sold already. That was quick. Apparently, some folks value them in that condition.

Nothing really wrong with that, Actually. Just into using my stuff more than collecting.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

The one that was not still wrapped went for $720- just $20 over the opening bid. It was pristine but not in the plastic. I actually would have loved to have had it but still out of my reach. I don't care about the numbering and signature- just would like to have a heavy bronze 4 1/2.

Edit- I didn't realize which one I posted. There was one that was opened for $700. I did not watch the $1200 one so I don't know what it went for or if it just expired.

[Chris Hachet]

The one that was not still wrapped went for $720- just $20 over the opening bid. It was pristine but not in the plastic. I actually would have loved to have had it but still out of my reach. I don't care about the numbering and signature- just would like to have a heavy bronze 4 1/2.

Edit- I didn't realize which one I posted. There was one that was opened for $700. I did not watch the $1200 one so I don't know what it went for or if it just expired.

I wish this plane were less pricey from L/N. Would really like one as a user.

[Mike Brady]

An opened anniversary 4-1/2 was priced at $825 on another forum recently and did not sell. I noticed that it was just sold on Ebay for $720., and there were just two bidders. This one was about as nice as a user could be, so that price seems to be a good baseline value.

[bob blakeborough]

I think the criticism of wanting a plane for collecting, even if it isn't worth a thousand dollars ( I am guessing these are bellow that each) . . .
I think disparaging that is kind of knee jerk.

I have planes I don't use partly because I was exploring possibilities when I bought them, partly because I just like to look at them. I still enjoy them as such.
I read the other day that Bill Gates still has in his collection the first car he ever drove/owned (a sixties red mustang). Nothing wrong with collections as long as they please the collector.

I even, gasp, have pocket knives I don't carry.
There now you know the worst.



I can't believe you are getting the grief you are from this thread... :confused:

Like Winston, I collect pocket knives, and some of the are just as valuable as these planes. I would not dream of taking them to work to slice boxes with, but that doesn't mean I do not love them. Does that mean I am a snob? Gosh I hope not!

Greg, you have no reason to be put off by the nay sayers. I completely understand your turmoil in regards to what you should do with these. Personally I would use one and sell the other, or simply sell both and buy a regular one if you require a user and do not really have your heart into having one for your collection. As for sequential serial numbers, I don't think that aspect will affect the price as there are still only the small quantity made and this is not an item people look for multiples "just because"...

[Mike Brady]

If you do keep one to use, which one will it be? Bronze has a high shrinkage rate in the foundry process. That is why the larger planes have not been offered in that material. Those two castings were not necessarily made sequentially. They were engraved sequentially. That means those two planes could have different performance parameters, if they were made to be used at all.

I have used many Lie-Nielsen planes in both iron and bronze and found no difference in performance between the two materials in similar planes. The iron version is slightly less expensive.

[Jim Koepke]

I can't believe you are getting the grief you are from this thread...

Like Winston, I collect pocket knives, and some of the are just as valuable as these planes. I would not dream of taking them to work to slice boxes with, but that doesn't mean I do not love them. Does that mean I am a snob? Gosh I hope not!

Not being a snob for collecting is also my hope.

It is kind of like hand made wood items. Some of us make them and surely wouldn't think of shunning any buyers just because they collected artisan made wooden crafts.

My lament wasn't that someone bought all my hand made spoons. My lament was I hadn't made even more to sell.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

An opened anniversary 4-1/2 was priced at $825 on another forum recently and did not sell. I noticed that it was just sold on Ebay for $720., and there were just two bidders. This one was about as nice as a user could be, so that price seems to be a good baseline value.

This demonstrates what I wrote in my post near the beginning of this thread. I think that the purchase of a LN Anniversary plane is a highly desired one, and that it makes a great user. Mine is (below). Even purchasing one to stare at on a mantle is OK, if that is what turns you on. But there are far better ways to invest money and purchasing one as an investment, per se, is not the way I would go.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Lie%20Nielsen/LN2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mel Miller]

To the OP:
Bronze has a high shrinkage rate in the foundry process. That is why the larger planes have not been offered in that material.

This makes no sense at all. Shrinkage rates of cast metals are well known, and allowed for, no matter what size the casting is to be. there are lots of bronze castings much bigger than any plane out there.

[Mike Brady]

It makes sense to Lie-Nielsen, who told be about this problem. Too many off-spec castings. I'm sure you can find someone there to to discuss it with.

[Winton Applegate]

I wish this plane were less pricey from L/N. Would really like one as a user.
Bide your time my friend, bide your time.
I want this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006YOJ5C/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3O3TTSMSB4ZBL).
I have been watching it over the years.
When I started watching it it was $1500 for an old used copy.
I tried to get Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer to buy it for me for Christmas.
She made me sleep on the deck that night. With out my pad.
I guess that was a no, then.
That was a few years ago.
That puppy is down to a mere $400 now so it is just a matter of time before I snag it.
I wonder if I should ask Q for it for my birthday ?
Pretty cold out these last several nights. Best to wait a while.

[Winton Applegate]

Anniversary plane is a highly desired one, and that it makes a great user. Mine is (below).
Derek,
Woha !
Look at the size of that sucker !
Do you find you need an assistant to help pick it up and carry it back to the beginning of the next cut ?
Pushing and gliding is one thing. Lifting is another.
Mos Grande !

[Winton Applegate]

Mike,
Since the "stuff" is hitting the fan and flying your way I may as well toss a shovel full.

I have used many Lie-Nielsen planes in both iron and bronze and found no difference in performance between the two materials in similar planes.

The bronze has more drag; no question.

[Winton Applegate]

Greg,

I may end up using one of them
So . . . . ?
What's it gonna be Greg?
What do we have to pay to peak through the hole in the wall ?
I think at this point you owe it to us to peal a little as it were.
At least the boa. Loose the boa and I will push a fiver into your box flap.

[Frederick Skelly]

I think at this point you owe it to us to peal a little as it were.
At least the boa. Loose the boa and I will push a fiver into your box flap.

Now THAT was funny! I just spat coffee all over the monitor again!

[Winton Applegate]

Greg,
Like any good showman you have left with your audience wanting more.
Greg,
I'm afraid you do not realize who you are dealing with here.
Greg,
These guys are dangerous. They make a room full of crazydrunk sailers look like a sewing bee.
Greg,
For the love of Bob (and your very continued existence on this planet) I beg you to be careful. Show us the goods.
Greg,
You can run but you can not plane.
Think it over.
307886

[Steve Clardy]

Looks like Greg got some bruises in here. :(

[gordy haycock]

Well, one of these planes finally made it to eBay for $1,600 plus shipping of course. It will be interesting to see if it sells. I think it is a ridiculous price.

[Andrew Gold]

It's been on and off for a number of weeks. I love the description where the sellers talks about planing to open the other one sometime, over a single malt and plane some wenge or something...

Some people!

[Jude Kenny]

It's been on and off for a number of weeks. I love the description where the sellers talks about planing to open the other one sometime, over a single malt and plane some wenge or something...

Some people!

I thought you had to be kidding about that quote. Nope! It's there for all to see.

As luck would have it, I have a single malt and some gorgeous burl laying around. I have been keeping them while I search the land for the perfect plane to smooth it while I savor my drink :)

[David Ragan]

I just read this thread, and am really dissappointed at some of the early responses to the OP.

The part of the thread that is disconcerting happend in February, but I feel compelled to say that my personal view is that when I have put-down, or taken a cheap shot at someone else, it only serves to make me look bad.

I can only hope the Moderators PM some of the folks about it.

[george wilson]

When making the reproduction of an 18th. C. fire engine(which I made 30 casting patterns for),we poured some 150# castings. All the castings were in bronze. Shrinkage was allowed for by me when making the patterns. And,the castings were poured with very basic 18th. C. type equipment.

Sorry,I have no pictures of the pumping mechanism. Now it is all enclosed inside the wooden housing of the fire engine.

I feel 2 ways about collecting tools: 1; I gather tools only to work with them. 2; Collecting tools and not using them at least preserves them for posterity.

But,I have to agree with Derek- collecting tools usually does not get you a large profit after you keep them for years and years. Maybe you'll make $20 after keeping the tool for 10 years? Especially a new made tool. Real estate is a better profit maker.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I just read this thread, and am really dissappointed at some of the early responses to the OP.

The part of the thread that is disconcerting happend in February, but I feel compelled to say that my personal view is that when I have put-down, or taken a cheap shot at someone else, it only serves to make me look bad.

A bit late to the rodeo, brudda.

If you were able to concatenate the earlier deleted thread with this one, you would get a story that included a different tone by the OP. A certain level of bragging and schadenfreude was the undercurrent.

A bit off-taste for some of us.

I hope he gets his $ jillion. He is now playing in the correct arena - global ebay.

[Joe Bailey]

Amen, brother Kent, my thoughts exactly.

[David Ragan]

A bit late to the rodeo, brudda.

If you were able to concatenate the earlier deleted thread with this one, you would get a story that included a different tone by the OP. A certain level of bragging and schadenfreude was the undercurrent.

A bit off-taste for some of us.

I hope he gets his $ jillion. He is now playing in the correct arena - global ebay.

My sincerest apologies

[Tim Atkins]

He just loves the attention. "Oh!! Oh!!, Look what I got !!!" I am sure he is just loving this post, and how long it has gone. I apologize to everyone, because I got him started down the tool collecting road. It is my shame I will carry forever. He has destroyed the fun I used to find in collecting.

We have all had our gloats and "You Suck " moments. And they should be shared. A lot of time and luck is put in to finding that special tool. Sometimes they inspires us to go back down stairs and learn to do something different. That is what hurts the worst. When a someone finds a personal treasure that they are really proud to have found. And he answers back about how he has a dozen. What a buzz kill.

I hope all the threads will forgive me for what I have done.


Tim

[Moses Yoder]

My insurance and I have paid about $4000 now to learn a number of things, among them the fact that what a person does and says is about them, not about me.

[Steve Clardy]

I don't see many adult postings in here.
Is it against the rules to gloat now?

[Greg Muller]

Well, unintended consequences, indeed. I had no idea this thread would go in this direction. I just received an call from a friend asking me if I’d seen this post recently, so I figured I’d check in. My intentions were not clear, I suppose, and for that I will apologize. First, though, I feel that I should address a post that hits close to home, both literally and figuratively.
-

Tim Atkins,
I once was happy to have you as a friend, but it seems those days are gone. I know you are a better person than these posts of yours, though. The last time I heard from you, you were telling me that you were done with me, but still wishing me well and a good life. I always wondered what caused you to call off our mutual rust hunting. Since you didn’t say, I never knew. I don’t rust hunt as much as I used to, since I retired and took on a volunteer job about 1 block from your workplace. I’ve also wondered how were you doing occasionally as I drive by your house on the way to the park, taking my son to his soccer practices. I’ve considered dropping in on you to see if you were well even. Now, I read your post above. I always thought you enjoyed my old tool finds as much as I celebrated yours. My enthusiasm must not have come off well to you and struck a bad chord. I never intended to gloat, and certainly never looked at the hunt as a competition. I just enjoy it as a hobby and perhaps it gets the better of me. Regardless, if there was something I could do to make it up to you, I would. Let me buy you a couple beers sometime and I’ll apologize profusely. If there’s too much water under the bridge for that, I understand. Either way, I’m sure our paths will cross again.

To the rest of this place;
Mea Culpa.


I apologize for not making my intent clearly enough. My initial post here was deleted, not because it was bad form or meanly spirited, but because a moderator thought I was fishing for offers for the LN planes. I wasn’t, and I reassured them that I wasn’t, and with a small addition to the title, the thread was recreated. I didn’t list the LN planes for sale for a few months after asking here for advice. I certainly didn’t expect more than a couple responses with advice.

When I initially took possession of these planes, I truly didn’t know what to do with them. After all, they were created as limited editions, and if you ask my late grandmother, she’ll tell you that anything that is limited edition, especially her numbered Elvis plates or her antique porcelain dolls, are collectible. So, not being sure if I would be committing some sacrilege, I asked here, and on other forums for advice. Yes, I was excited to have these, and I probably let my enthusiasm run rampant (it does, often) so I should have known to be careful in my posts or they wouldn’t be well perceived. The person I got these planes from has even posted in this thread, and was the steward of them for almost a decade prior, so I knew I wasn’t the only person in the world who valued them, and I respect him highly as a woodworker and friend.

I’ve also received a bit of a roasting on the price I’m asking. Well, that was the highest price that one of these planes sold for, about 5 years ago at an east coast auction house. Another unopened one has sold on Ebay for $1200. I also placed a “Best Offer” option on it, from the beginning. I thought that was fair. Others have their opinions and have let them be known. I’m not sure when it became appropriate to bash others for collecting tools or for selling them as collectibles, but it has grown traction apparently. The internet tough guys have come smelling blood. I haven’t seen this much attack on my person since my time in the Army. I’m not worried about their opinions, but I’ll apologize to them for ruffling their feathers. I’m not trying to be snide, either. I mean it. Additionally, my comment in the Ebay post regarding the ‘single malt and chunk of burl’ was meant to be taken with a heavy dose of sarcasm, as I had learned before putting it up for sale that such a comment would be appreciated by the forum members. I probably should have thrown in a sarcasm sign. Again, my mistake.

Finally, for those who haven’t read the Q/A comments on the Ebay post, I am using one of the LN planes and the other will either sell, or I’ll pass it on to my first grandchild unopened. I don’t have any grandchildren yet, but I hope to pass woodworking on to them as a hobby. I own and predominantly use vintage Stanley’s and Lee Valley/Veritas tools, but I do have a couple specialty tools from Lie Nielsen and find them to be great users. I own exactly 3 tools that have never been opened. One is the LN, another is a Veritas Anniversary Edge plane, and the final one is a NIB Stanley Sweetheart #4. Everything else is used and enjoyed. Since my retirement, I’ve done more woodworking than previously, and it has helped while away the hours between summers spent hanging out with my 12 year son and 9 year old daughter.

Thanks for all your comments, most of them were very helpful and given in the spirit with which I asked, but I’ve learned something from them all.

And before anyone else says it, TL;DR, right?

-Greg

(hoping for better results this time...)