Lets talk workbenches

[Zach Dickason]

First post, I need some advice.

I am settled (as most do) on building either a Roubo or Nicholson. This will be done mostly by hand. My local lumber shop has some very dry 16/4 poplar. There are wide enough pieces that I could make a Roubo top with two slabs (1 glue line). The ease of construction by only using two joined pieces for the top attracts me but I wish it was a harder species and not poplar.

Interestingly enough he also has 8/4 wormy soft maple (ambrosia maple) for barely more per board foot than the poplar. This stuff is obviously much denser and heavier than the poplar and priced lower than anything else besides poplar. I was thinking it would make a georgeous Nicholson bench.

Here is my dilemma: should I build a Roubo from the poplar, a nicholson from the maple, or should I bite the bullet and rip the quartersawn wood from the maple and laminate several boards into a Roubo top. Or should I come to my senses and save money and just buy box store pine and build either of the bench styles from the cheaper stuff? Thanks for any advice.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Zach and welcome to the Creek. Not knowing where you are it is difficult to guess what type of box store pine is available to you.

Many have built benches from Douglas Fir or Southern Yellow Pine.

One of the "old saws" about building a bench is to build it from what is inexpensive locally.

Some like the idea of soft wood for benches so it doesn't ding their work. That hasn't been a problem for me.

A person's first bench often helps them determine what they want to do when they acquire a second bench.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Hi Zach,

A Roubo style bench is inherently hefty, so the species you chose should either be something you enjoy working or something you enjoy looking at.

Is White Ash available to you locally for cheap? I find it to be the best wood available to me locally, highest yield per BF, often very straight and it's a wood that is easy to work while still being dense. It's also just shy of half the price of hard maple.

Having made a wood bench out of maple, a sitting bench out of white oak and a saw bench out of white ash I would use Ash without hesitation.

Make certain that you orient the laminations so that the grain planes well in the direction for each board, that will make flattening your bench a much easier task.

[Mike Cherry]

In the interest of playing devils advocate, Im nearly done with my Paul Sellers style bench made from 2x4 Douglas Firs. This is my first real bench and it is a huge upgrade from my rickety general purpose I have been trying to use for the last couple years ;(

If this is your first hand tool purposed bench I would recommend an inexpensive lumber. As Jim mentioned, you might find some minor things that you would do differently on your next bench. I havent completed mine yet and already I have some things I would do different lol

Good luck and take lots of progress pics whichever route you go!

[Steve Voigt]

If it were my bench, I would definitely choose the poplar. I see no benefit to having a very hard wood for my bench top. I would much rather put little dents and gouges in the bench top than in whatever furniture, etc. that I'm building. Some people want their benches to look pristine. I'd rather have mine looking like it does actual work.

A couple other points. If you are building by hand, you want something that is relatively easy to work, and you want to minimize the number of laminations. Trying to build a Schwarz-style laminated top without a lot of power tools is painful. I did it, and would never do it again. If you can build a poplar top with only one or two laminations, that sounds like a dream come true.

On one point I have to disagree with Brian. I would not want to use something as hard and heavy as ash, and I would not want such a coarse, ring-porous wood for a bench top. If you are filing a saw or doing other light metal work, you will have a much tougher time getting the bits of metal out of a coarse, open pored wood like ash or oak. Those bits can stick around forever, scratching your nice furniture projects.

Regardless of what wood you choose, I would decide what type of bench you want first, then decide on the wood. Choosing a Nicholson vs a Roubo--two very different styles of bench--based on the type of wood available seems like a recipe for disappointment.
Good luck.

[Zach Dickason]

I appreciate the replies. I'm not sure if the ash we have down here is white ash or "regular" ash or if there's even a difference. Regardless the ash bore has driven prices up I believe because of diminished supply (southern Indiana). My thinking is that I want a Roubo but not if I have to prepare numerous pieces by hand to laminate for the top. This is why I thought I would either use the big poplar for a Roubo or use some other 8/4 species for a less labor intensive Nicholson.

[Zach Dickason]

Steve, awesome advice. I think I'll do the poplar Roubo.

[Judson Green]

If it were my bench, I would definitely choose the poplar. I see no benefit to having a very hard wood for my bench top. I would much rather put little dents and gouges in the bench top than in whatever furniture, etc. that I'm building. Some people want their benches to look pristine. I'd rather have mine looking like it does actual work.

A couple other points. If you are building by hand, you want something that is relatively easy to work, and you want to minimize the number of laminations. Trying to build a Schwarz-style laminated top without a lot of power tools is painful. I did it, and would never do it again. If you can build a poplar top with only one or two laminations, that sounds like a dream come true.

On one point I have to disagree with Brian. I would not want to use something as hard and heavy as ash, and I would not want such a coarse, ring-porous wood for a bench top. If you are filing a saw or doing other light metal work, you will have a much tougher time getting the bits of metal out of a coarse, open pored wood like ash or oak. Those bits can stick around forever, scratching your nice furniture projects.

Regardless of what wood you choose, I would decide what type of bench you want first, then decide on the wood. Choosing a Nicholson vs a Roubo--two very different styles of bench--based on the type of wood available seems like a recipe for disappointment.
Good luck.


+1! Good advice. Do use hard wood like maple for your vise chops.

[Jim Matthews]

Have a look at Steve Rozaieski's bench build at Logan Cabinet Shoppe.
You'll finish a Nicholson design faster than the Roubo.

The joinery is simpler. The front apron adds tremendous
stiffness to the assembly, and that translates into less
material in the trestle undercarriage.

I'm finding that a split top, with a removable batten is VERY desirable.
There are times when a plank needs to be clamped down,
but for most of what I do, a stop is more than enough.

Look up "birds mouth batten" and stop to see what I'm on about...

[Winton Applegate]

Yes welcome to the forum Zach !

Or should I

Poplar ? ! ? !

Bite the bullet yes
or rather enjoy the experience by really putting some bucks and focus into it.

Buy a bunch of purple heart and make a Scandi/Klausz bench
I suppose a guy COULD use some other wood . . . if he had to . . .(purple heart is the best: price wise/strength/rigidity/has a natural tac in the bare wood so it isn't slippery) . . . but I mean you have to have this thing heavy, precise , stable . . .
it is a tool after all
and purple heart isn't all that expensive. I think.
I suppose to save money a hand plane could be made out of papier mache rather than iron if engineered right.
Why ?
Put some beef into this sucker.
Not that I have any strong opinions on work benches or anything. :)

[ken hatch]

Everybody works differently. I tend to agree with the cheap wood bunch for the first build because it is almost a sure thing that the first bench will not meet your needs. It may have too many or too few vises, vises in the wrong place, vises that do not work easily, it will be either too tall or too short, and so on. You should get the picture, a second, third, or even fourth bench will likely follow. Once you find bench true love then go for the good stuff.

Save your money, buy 2X12X? construction grade wood. SYP, DF, it makes no never mind and build a simple quick to make bench. French, English or love child, again it makes no difference just something easy to build with simple joinery, simple vises, add dog holes as needed and go to work making furniture. A year or two down the road you will have a better idea as to what your bench should be. Build it once more out of cheap Big Box construction grade wood. Work on it until you feel the need to change things. After a few cycles you may know enough to build the "perfect bench" out pretty wood. BTW, my first bench was made from Orange Big Box SYP more than 50 years ago and it is still in use today, not as a work holding bench but as a sharpening bench. Ain't nothing wrong with a bench built of construction grade wood.

Another factor, it doesn't have to be a French, English, or German bench. Once you know what works for you, you can combine elements kinda like at a Chinese cafe to build a bench that fits your work habits.

Here is a photo of my Cross Chanel Bench, a lot of French with a touch of English DNA that is as close to perfect for my way of working as I expect a bench can be.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/benchApronFinished_zps7cf7fe0d.jpg

[Winton Applegate]

By the way every bit of my bench was hand tools other than the dog holes which I cut across a table saw with a monster dado set, mostly because I had just bought the dado set and wanted to try it out.
Worked good.

Yes it was more difficult,
I had to overcome planing/tearout issues and issues with the harder wood beating up edge tool edges.
I learned a lot.
I would do the exact same thing again if just getting into REAL handtool wood working with intent to build fine cabinetry.
Makes everything else seem easy.

[Chris Hachet]

I would consider how you work and design your bench around that. Execute it well with a quality vise, and enjoy. You'll get more enjoyment out of building the thing than thinking about it.

And why two benches? Really you only need one main bench.

As for lumber, polar and soft maple will not be that much different in use. I would choose whichever is straighter in grain and older in growth. If all else fails the lighter color of maple will reflect more light.

I like the Roubo design better of the two, actually.

[Winton Applegate]

He didn't say this was his first bench.
is it your first bench Zach ?
My first, long, very flat, planing surface was made from 2x4s. See photo.
very easy to laminate; just glue them together. Actually I didn't even glue mine I just stacked them up and through bolted them (but I'm weird) but that was before I had that many clamps.
I only used it (them; I made two) long enough to make my Klausz bench.

As far as what, how tall, vises and where :
Read
study
read sommore
repeat.

Hey . . . It is easier sitting on the couch buying books and reading than buying and building multiple benches just to relearn what the cool guys (Klausz not me) have already researched for you.
Unless you have an abnormal number of legs and are building furniture for off world aliens . . .
can what you are going to build and the bench to do it be all that different to what people have been using for the last several centuries ?

[Zach Dickason]

I'm getting lots of help here and I appreciate it. I don't think a Purple Heart bench is something I want to take on (though my lumber guy has a ton of it in 8/4). In an ideal world I would build a Roubo all out of quarter-sawn boards, but I'm not confident to do all of it by hand, which is why I am considering the poplar slabs.

For a little background, I make all kinds of things, I don't really have a specialty. In the near future I do have some "larger" furniture projects in mind. The bench will go in my basement workshop. The space is really large so the size of the bench is not really a concern I could build it 15' long and have plenty of room.

[Winton Applegate]

(though my lumber guy has a ton of it in 8/4)
It's a sign Zach.
Go with it.
:p

No really. What have you used in the past/now and what don't you like about it ?

[Zach Dickason]

I currently have a nice cache of power tools, and a small but growing compliment of hand tools. My assembly work is done on saw horses and a large 6'x4' mdf torsion box table. I have no vices to speak of and all of my work holding is accomplished with clamps. The small work I do is crafty stuff with barn wood and license plates but everything else tends to be larger furniture (sideboards, bookcases, etc). I'm also in the process of trimming out my house room by room in craftsman trim. I usually build the architraves above the doors/ windows in one piece. Some of them are 6-7' long.

[Jim Koepke]

I have no vices to speak of

That is good. For a woodworker a vise or two is always welcome. :D

There are ways to hold work without a vise.

Typical on a Roubo bench is the crochet. Someone recently showed how they attach theirs using bed frame hardware.

Here is a post about an easy to make device seen on The Woodwright's Shop:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?223428-Holding-Without-A-Vise

Lots of other ways to hold things still while working on them.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Steve, good point. Can't say I have any complaints with my bench in maple, I've sharpened saws in it without any remnants remaining to scratch my furniture. Generally I avoid using it for metal work however.

[Graham Haydon]

I've found a pine Nicholson to be great. You can spend the time and money you save on wood and making things. However enjoy whatever choice you make. If made well any workbench will be just fine.

[Chris Hachet]

I've found a pine Nicholson to be great. You can spend the time and money you save on wood and making things. However enjoy whatever choice you make. If made well any workbench will be just fine.

The nicholson design is easy on the eyes also....I certainly wouldn't kick one out of my shop! Ideal for edge jointing....

[David Linnabary]

Although I went for it and built a hardwood scandi bench first, I have to agree that I've wanted to build a 2nd bench ever since. I build my Frid style bench in left hand, the design has a somewhat small footprint so as I got more into hand tools I realized that I wanted to build a right hand version for my son who is right handed. I'm a bench in the middle of the room kinda guy and I realized that I could back the second bench up to my first bench like partner's desks or even end to end to give me more surface area and a more comfortable venue for developing my right hand planing skills. My only regret is building the second bench and knowing that I'll one day see it walk out of my shop with my son. Oh well, a third bench then! :)

David

[Pat Barry]

First post, I need some advice.

I am settled (as most do) on building either a Roubo or Nicholson. This will be done mostly by hand. My local lumber shop has some very dry 16/4 poplar. There are wide enough pieces that I could make a Roubo top with two slabs (1 glue line). The ease of construction by only using two joined pieces for the top attracts me but I wish it was a harder species and not poplar.

Interestingly enough he also has 8/4 wormy soft maple (ambrosia maple) for barely more per board foot than the poplar. This stuff is obviously much denser and heavier than the poplar and priced lower than anything else besides poplar. I was thinking it would make a georgeous Nicholson bench.

Here is my dilemma: should I build a Roubo from the poplar, a nicholson from the maple, or should I bite the bullet and rip the quartersawn wood from the maple and laminate several boards into a Roubo top. Or should I come to my senses and save money and just buy box store pine and build either of the bench styles from the cheaper stuff? Thanks for any advice.
You must favor one design over the other. Make that decision. Now for the wood choice - folks have used all conceivable materials and still do. If you want to make the top from teak or walnut or pine go ahead and do it. There is no right answer to any of these questions. Everyone has an opinion - you do to. Design the bench to satisfy yourself and get to work.

[Brian Holcombe]

Although I went for it and built a hardwood scandi bench first, I have to agree that I've wanted to build a 2nd bench ever since. I build my Frid style bench in left hand, the design has a somewhat small footprint so as I got more into hand tools I realized that I wanted to build a right hand version for my son who is right handed. I'm a bench in the middle of the room kinda guy and I realized that I could back the second bench up to my first bench like partner's desks or even end to end to give me more surface area and a more comfortable venue for developing my right hand planing skills. My only regret is building the second bench and knowing that I'll one day see it walk out of my shop with my son. Oh well, a third bench then! :)

David

I built a modified Scandi bench basically on Wintons advice and some research and have really enjoyed it. I found a photo of one that must have been around 100 years old in a Carl Hansen catalog and that sealed the deal.

My deviations were that I used a Lie Nielsen tail vise and that I made the top much deeper than a typical Scandi reason being that I do a lot of casework and tables.

If one were to go this direction I'll offer some advice;

I made the shoulder vise on mine to accommodate about 5.5" of travel, this is unnecessary. I could reduce the travel to 3.5" and never miss it.

[Winton Applegate]

In order of importance . . . okaaaaaa . . . as I see it . . . (but I’m right so there) these are the top work bench books. Can probably get them from the library but if you are like me you need to write in them, improve the indexes into something useful and just generally, to use one of my Mother’s phrases, “wool them around”. (so you may want to buy them).
#1 Book (http://www.amazon.com/Workbench-Book-Craftsmans-Publishers-Woodworking-ebook/dp/B0042JU7NU/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1424108861&sr=1-2&keywords=the+workbench+book)

#2 Book (http://www.amazon.com/Workbench-Complete-Guide-Creating-Perfect/dp/1561585947/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424108633&sr=8-1&keywords=the+work+bench+book)

and finally
#3 Book (http://www.amazon.com/Workbenches-Design-Construction-Popular-Woodworking/dp/1558708405/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y)

Which I enjoyed reading from a historical perspective but fail to appreciate the benches in use.

And purple heart is THE ONLY good wood to use :
No knots to speak of
much really straight, stable , but boring, grain,
Has surprises in it like fantastic chatoyance that comes out with only a bit of finish planing and burnishing with shavings no finish needed.
Super tight pores/ nothing gets imbedded in it
really heavy
smells like dirty feet when you work it (wait strike that)
drives some people crazy that it is called “purple” and that it is, in some lighting, very purple in deed. See photos of two light sources on the same area of the bench. Can easily be turned brown though with exposure to sun light.

OK so none of the cool guys built their benches from purple heart.
What do they know anyway ? ! ?

I’m right, that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.:mad:
:p
PS: got to have the tail vise for drawer making. With a bench slave.
Period

PPS: some say a light colored bench is the only right way to go. Maybe some body can point out my grand folly in that respect; dark wood seems fine. :confused:

[Chris Hachet]

Winton, your bench is very inspirational.

Chris

[Brian Holcombe]

Winton, I just added some dark wood to my bench. The bolt which passes through the shoulder vise was pulling through the maple side grain, so I cut out about 1.5" of it and dovetailed in some walnut (endgrain facing out).

I have you in one aspect, the tusk tenons on the base of mine are fitted with Honduras rosewood pins. The heartwood is like steel, my plane starts to shiver with nervousness around it.

[Winton Applegate]

Winton, your bench is very inspirational.

Ha, ha thanks
I would say listening to Frank Klausz or reading his old articles is truly inspirational.
My bench is merely the result of the combination of a lack of personal creativity on my part, one track minded pig headedness and the supreme luxury (for which I am grateful for) of having the time to build it without the pressure of needing to put food on the table by using it.

Really though if it had been pink zebra stripe I would have used this wood (well maybe not) . . . I chose the wood from a spec list of wood attributes. As if I were selecting a particular alloy of stainless steel.

It didn't matter a rink to me what it looked like. That appreciation came after I bought the pile of planks and started working it and looking at it.

Ha, ha, ha, ha,
Once that took hold I got pretty crazy for a while there and almost went "full retard"
and considered putting a zebra wood layer on top of it.
Pretty porous , and expensive, though . . .
luckily an error checking algorithm cut in just in time and prevented me from doing that.

What I am saying is . . .
That the zebra wood layer would be soooo COOL with the purple heart base !
I stole the zebra wood photo from here. (http://www.glumber.com/wood-countertops/wood-counters-flat-grain-photos/)
it is never too late . . . I could still do that . . .
error/error/error/. . .
. . .
REBOOT SEQUENCE INITIATED
PLEASE WAIT . . . . . . .

[Brian Holcombe]

Gaboon ebony perhaps?

Or....Gaboon ebony with a zebrawood base.

[Winton Applegate]

Hi Brian,
Is there a photo of the area posted some where here ?
Hard to imagine, in my little brain, how the walnut could be near as good as the maple. Hard maple ?

Honduras rosewood pins . . . plane starts to shiver with nervousness around it.

I can imagine that though !
Some times I think Sam Maloof was kind of a non traditionalist hack. Skipped over the traditial WAY THINGS ARE DONE BY GOLLY . . .
Then I see or remember he worked a lot in hard rosewood and I want to cut out my tongue in shame.

[Brian Holcombe]

The walnut's not harder, I just changed the grain direction and had walnut on hand. Walnut endgrain is still harder to compress than maple side grain with a hole that was elongated and crushing inward.

I have some lignum vitae on hand but thought it a bit insane to use for such a task.

Honduras rosewood is hellish to work...I'll post up some pictures later on tonight of these things. I used some for dutchman keys in a tabletop recently. Tough to plane it with anything over 30 degrees.

[Winton Applegate]

ebony with a zebrawood base.

Yah . . .
I can just see the look on my wood guys face first when I told him beam sizes and how many board feet of each I needed and then
when I answered his question about what I was planning to build with them . ..
his face would freeze for a second or two and then begin to do that terribly slow crashing trick that Arctic ice floes do so spectacularly in the spring.

Then the guys with the white coats with the funny jacket would be called . . . and things would just spiral downward from there . . .

[Winton Applegate]

Oh I'm getting it.
Compression
I was thinking the little screws were pulling out of it.

[Brian Holcombe]

The bolt threads into hard maple side grain, that stuff is surprisingly tough. It's a 1/2" bolt thread and hasnt pulled through (yet). I've considered replacing it with an Acme threaded stud if it does.

Indeed, my local yard carries gaboon and I think they would question my sanity if I bought more than one stick at a time. ($150~ BF).

[Jim Matthews]

That Clark & Williams looks lonely, and unloved.

Send her to me, and I'll take her out dancing every night...

[Brian Holcombe]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/D40CD4D7-A36E-4C8D-B460-FAA7D1D22FAA_zpsg11gyfzt.jpg

That weird line in the grain is just that, and not a crack.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/DDE0239D-E4D5-49BE-8398-5A034C1F7888_zpsp2eplon9.jpg

[Joe A Faulkner]

Zach, where about in Southern Indiana are you? I suggest two things.
1) Google Bonesteel Mill and Molding. He has a location in Sellersburg and another in Paris Crossing. He has 8/4 Ash, Maple and White Oak at $3 bf. Only recently did he charge more for 8/4.
2) Google The Traditional Tool Store - Matt Evans in Franklin Indiana offers a variety of big wooden screws - great for a leg vise, face vise, twin screw ...

[John Sanford]

I would use Poplar, but only because using ambrosia maple for a bench seems like a waste. (I'd buy up a bunch of that Maple and build other things with it.)

As for which design? Well, I'm not much of a fan of the Nicholson design, I'm currently building an Asymmetrical Split-Top Roubo. From a design/style/visual standpoint, I really, really like the looks of the Moravian Workbench, especially when done with the slanted leg vise. I'll probably put one of those on my "to-do" list just because, although it will be a quite a ways down the list. If I ever get around to building it, I'd likely give it to one of my sons. As for whether or not the Moravian would perform as well as the other designs? Dunno, those who've built them thus far seem to be happy, but there aren't enough out there in recent days to get a good read, especially from folks who've used other designs extensively.

[Bob Snyder - Austin]

How could you get to one glue line using the 16/4 poplar? There is a school here in Austin and his benches from made up of some 16/4 poplar and they look and wear nice.

I'd buy whatever is cheapest and pick the design that you think you'd get the most use out of.

I did the Holtzapffel style bench using 2x12 (ripped to get quarter-sawn) SYP from the big box store. It was fun. It's done. I over-thought it. Now I'm enjoying using it. :)

(Looks like I never took a pic of it completed. Here's mine while installing the front vise. Pretty much built it exactly the way CS talks about.)

307223

[Chris Hachet]

How could you get to one glue line using the 16/4 poplar? There is a school here in Austin and his benches from made up of some 16/4 poplar and they look and wear nice.

I'd buy whatever is cheapest and pick the design that you think you'd get the most use out of.

I did the Holtzapffel style bench using 2x12 (ripped to get quarter-sawn) SYP from the big box store. It was fun. It's done. I over-thought it. Now I'm enjoying using it. :)

(Looks like I never took a pic of it completed. Here's mine while installing the front vise. Pretty much built it exactly the way CS talks about.)

307223

A very nice looking bench. I was going to use the Holtzapffel design, but changed to a leg vise at the last minute.

Chris

[william sympson]

I just finished a bench influenced by 3 styles but suited to what I do and the materials I had. I based the design on experience working on a sawhorse supported slab. I say take what you like from each style and go with it. I used a piece of poplar for the leg vise chop but I think SYP would make a better top than poplar.
r/
william

[Bob Snyder - Austin]

Thanks, Chris. I like it a lot so far. I have a cheap vise mounted on the end that I use as a tail vise. All of it works well together. So far there isn't anything I would change for the next one.