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Ed Maloney
02-14-2015, 8:48 AM
Hopefully only a few of you may have some suggestions.

Had a fire in the laser and had to use the fire extinguisher. 306909306910
Any tips and advice on how to clean-up this mess?

Bill George
02-14-2015, 10:08 AM
Never had to do a fire clean up, but a shop vac and lots of time, if you could move it outside low pressure compressed air. It needs to come off as soon as you can. I would use soap and water as a last step. A online search would be the first step.

Scott Shepherd
02-14-2015, 10:11 AM
What kind of extinguisher was it? Some damage electronics, some don't.

What happened Ed? How'd the fire start and get out of control? It might help show others how to make sure it doesn't happen to them.

Dan Hintz
02-14-2015, 11:10 AM
If the machine was on when you sprayed, you can guarantee there is a lot of buildup in the electronics portion of the laser cartridge... those fans suck it right in.

Randy Allen
02-14-2015, 12:19 PM
Ed,

I've seen our tech, Michael Evans at Engraving Concepts, bring lasers back from the dead caused by fire & smoke damage.



I would roll that thing outside with high pressure air compressor and blow out as much dust/residue as possible.
Remove all covers, side panels, I would even take out the laser tube and power supply (all modular) and aggressively clean inside & out.
Then, go to work with damp t-shirt and wipe off all parts, belts, bearings, electronics, connecting etc...


Once cleaned up, plug it up, turn ON the unit and stand back.
If it boots up with the display as JOB, you are good to go.
Otherwise, electronic part modules can be replaced pretty painlessly.

Don't forget to remove the lens assembly and inspect/clean/replace as necessary.

Good luck!
Randy Allen

Chris Corwin
02-14-2015, 12:44 PM
Please make sure everything is bone-dry inside of all the components before you plug anything together or especially into a wall outlet. I wouldn't want anybody hurt or components burned out.

That epilog stuff ain't cheap!

Ed Maloney
02-14-2015, 1:55 PM
Thanks all for the replies so far. To answer some of the questions:

- I did an online search and found some tips that I already figured out that I would need. But, of course, nothing to do with the complexities of a laser.

- My desk is about an arms length away from the laser. The time between my last check and the discovery was maybe about 30-60 seconds. I was doing some small name type of pendants so I knew to keep a close eye on things. The only thing that I could think of (after putting out the fire and having a drink) was that the acrylic was maybe about 3 years old and the paper may have been great fuel given the age. It was stunning how fast it spread. Grids were recently cleaned and the sheet was also vented.

- With flames shooting up about 4 or so inches after I opened the lid I grabbed the extinguisher (which was right next to the laser) and the machine was still on.

- The extinguisher was the typical dry chemical one that I got at Lowes (and replaced today!)

- I would love to move the laser outside but we have a bit of snow going on.

Glen Monaghan
02-14-2015, 3:09 PM
I don't see much in the way of visible fire damage so presumably you caught it fairly soon. Assuming you sprayed the extinguisher before shutting down the laser and extractor, you have that powder throughout the machine and extractor so you're going to have to completely strip away all the panels and do a thorough cleaning.

That mess is why I keep a spray bottle of water on the laser stand and have a 30# CO2 extinguisher next to it. I had acrylic catch fire once (flames on clear acrylic can be hard to see in a bright room!) and was able to extinguish it within a second or so using only the squirt bottle. Remove the melted acrylic, wipe away little smoke on the back of the machine, pat dry with paper towel and done. If the fire extinguisher is used, the CO2 sublimates on its own and, again, the only cleanup would be removing any charred/melted material and wiping away smoke residue (assuming no structural damage occurred).

Dan Hintz
02-14-2015, 3:25 PM
Ed,

I've seen our tech, Michael Evans at Engraving Concepts, bring lasers back from the dead caused by fire & smoke damage.



I would roll that thing outside with high pressure air compressor and blow out as much dust/residue as possible.
Remove all covers, side panels, I would even take out the laser tube and power supply (all modular) and aggressively clean inside & out.
Then, go to work with damp t-shirt and wipe off all parts, belts, bearings, electronics, connecting etc...


Once cleaned up, plug it up, turn ON the unit and stand back.
If it boots up with the display as JOB, you are good to go.
Otherwise, electronic part modules can be replaced pretty painlessly.

Don't forget to remove the lens assembly and inspect/clean/replace as necessary.

Good luck!
Randy Allen

I would suggest alcohol, rather than water, particularly if you have hard water...

Mike Dempsey
02-14-2015, 4:18 PM
I think I would try to hoover as much out as possible first before then blowing out with an airline and then wiping it down.

Bert Kemp
02-14-2015, 5:37 PM
I Agree vacuum first to avoid blowing more stuff into all the electronics then wipe and blow last

I think I would try to hoover as much out as possible first before then blowing out with an airline and then wiping it down.

Rich Harman
02-14-2015, 6:29 PM
I've only had to clean up an accidental dry chem discharge in a vehicle. What a PIA that was. My condolences, I hope it turns out to be not too much trouble for you.

I recommend a really good shop vac. If the one you have is mediocre, now is a good time to upgrade.

John Noell
02-14-2015, 7:16 PM
That mess is why I keep a spray bottle of water on the laser stand and have a 30# CO2 extinguisher next to it. Epilog specifically recommends having a CO2 extinguisher. I have a good sized one next to my laser. Never had a fire in the laser (knock on my wooden head), but did have to clean up a car engine fire where powder was used. That's another reason I have a CO2 unit.

Keith Colson
02-14-2015, 7:42 PM
When ever I cut acrylic with brown paper, I always peel the top side off before cutting as it pretty much eliminates the flames. It is also not so bright to look at which must be good.

As far as servicing the machine I would remove any parts that need cleaning and clean them. I would keep removing parts until I got down to clean parts. How deep you dig will vary. Make sure all the high voltage stuff is really clean as high voltage likes to track across dirt Good luck.

Mike Lassiter
02-15-2015, 11:04 AM
I recalled I had several pictures of what happens when a dry chemical fire extinguisher discharged inside the cab of a garbage truck and thought worth sharing. Turbo went out on this truck and it had to be towed to the shop - and into the shop. For whatever reason the driver had the 20lb ext. laying in the passenger seat with no safety pin in the handle. Mack MR truck that you have to jack the cab over to access the engine.

Mechanic jacked the cab up, the extinguisher slide out of the seat as the cab is tilted over and fell handle first down on the floor - emptying the 20 lbs of dry chemical inside the cab. EVERYTHING was coated in a yellowish powder - EVERYTHING.
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The windows were covered completely. Hit them from the outside and the powder fell down the glass like there was some type of static cling holding it to the glass. We used shop air pressure to blow most of this out, but the surfaces inside remained coated and had to be actually cleaned by hand - blowing with 175 psi air pressure wouldn't remove the film covering everything. I realize you don't have 20 lbs to clean up, but I feel for you having to get everything cleaned again.

Michael Evans
02-15-2015, 11:48 AM
It's not going to be easy to clean this up. There are corrosive agents used in those extinguishers so please wear a mask. If the main board is coated with retardant please removed it and use a spray can of electronics cleaner, do the same with the X read head and the X/Y PCB. Use shop vac with hepa filter where possible. On the power supply use vac on one side and can of compressed air on the other. It's really just common sense stuff. If you think you might forget how something goes back together then take some quick phone pics before removing it. Bottom line us you need to remove as much of that retardant as possible, as quickly as you can so parts don't start oxidizing. This is the primary reason why Epilog recommends having a Halotron EExtinguishers. Simple Green is a great product to use after the majority of the retardant is removed.

Ed Maloney
02-15-2015, 11:51 AM
I recalled I had several pictures of what happens when a dry chemical fire extinguisher discharged inside the cab of a garbage truck and thought worth sharing. Turbo went out on this truck and it had to be towed to the shop - and into the shop. For whatever reason the driver had the 20lb ext. laying in the passenger seat with no safety pin in the handle. Mack MR truck that you have to jack the cab over to access the engine.

Mechanic jacked the cab up, the extinguisher slide out of the seat as the cab is tilted over and fell handle first down on the floor - emptying the 20 lbs of dry chemical inside the cab. EVERYTHING was coated in a yellowish powder - EVERYTHING.

The windows were covered completely. Hit them from the outside and the powder fell down the glass like there was some type of static cling holding it to the glass. We used shop air pressure to blow most of this out, but the surfaces inside remained coated and had to be actually cleaned by hand - blowing with 175 psi air pressure wouldn't remove the film covering everything. I realize you don't have 20 lbs to clean up, but I feel for you having to get everything cleaned again.

That sure looks familiar! Should be one with the deep clean today. Initial inspection looks promising. The right side where the motherboard is didn't have any of the crap so I was lucky there.

Ed Maloney
02-15-2015, 12:03 PM
Thanks. I am using a mask, gloves, and goggles. The majority of the stuff is now gone and I am in the process of getting into the nooks and cranys. I did buy a replacement extinguisher as the original, but I will keep that on hand until I go out and get the recommended one. Then I'll move the non-recommended one to the kitchen area.

Gary Hair
02-15-2015, 5:40 PM
Simple Green is a great product to use after the majority of the retardant is removed.

Just don't use it on anything aluminum, it will corrode as bad as the stuff in the extinguisher. There is an "aircraft" version of Simple Green that won't attack aluminum, use that instead.

Rich Harman
02-15-2015, 6:34 PM
Just don't use it on anything aluminum, it will corrode as bad as the stuff in the extinguisher. There is an "aircraft" version of Simple Green that won't attack aluminum, use that instead.

This is what Simple Green says about aluminum;

Aluminum - Is it safe to use Simple Green All-Purpose Cleaner on aluminum?When used with caution and according to the instructions, Simple Green All-Purpose Cleaner has been safely and successfully used to clean aluminum. Simple Green All-Purpose Cleaner, Crystal Simple Green Industrial Cleaner & Degreaser, and Simple Green Pressure Washer Concentrates have been used on aircraft, automotive, industrial and consumer aluminum items for over 20 years. However, caution and common sense must be used: aluminum is a soft metal that easily corrodes with unprotected exposure to water. The aqueous-base and alkalinity of Simple Green All-Purpose Cleaner can accelerate the corrosion process. Therefore, contact times for unprotected or unpainted aluminum surfaces should be kept as brief as the job will allow - never for more than 10 minutes. Large cleaning jobs should be conducted in smaller-area stages to achieve lower contact time. Rinsing after cleaning should always be extremely thorough - paying special attention to flush out cracks and crevices to remove all Simple Green product residues. Unfinished, uncoated or unpainted aluminum cleaned with Simple Green products should receive some sort of protectant after cleaning to prevent oxidation.

Keith Colson
02-15-2015, 6:43 PM
Right Rich

Not to mention that most aluminium assemblies are anodised which classes them as "protected"

Chris J Anderson
02-16-2015, 4:44 AM
I have a co2 extinguisher a few meters from my lasers, I hope I never have to use it but if I do.

Using co2 should save a big cleanup / electrical damage if ever required...

Alexa Ristow
02-16-2015, 9:18 AM
Just remember that a CO2 extinguisher will form condensation inside your machine.
1. Bash the Kill switch
2 spray
3 open all access panels and doors. place a few electric fans to dry out machine before use.

These are the rules for a fire in a Slot Machine ( my " reel" job) killed with CO2 but will work just as well for a laser with a similar mix of optics, electronics and mechanical components.

be prepared to replace stepper motors and cooling fans if you have used powder. The powder gets into the supposedly sealed bearings and oxidation takes over. You will experience component failure within a month.

For your electronic boards, the powder gets between the tracks on surface mounted devices. You cannot vacuum it out. The only route is to buy a couple of cans of circuit board cleaner and spray the hell out of the boards. cheaper than immediate replacement.

Regards,

Norman

Henri Sallinen
02-16-2015, 9:26 AM
There is also a Italian extinguisher product called Mangiafuoco (you can find youtube clips on it etc.). I have it next to my laser. It's supposed to not leave anything to clean when used and is quite cheap + handy. There has been some problems with this product in the past and they had to pull their products out of the market years back, but now they've made a new version of the product and it should work well.

Hope I never have to find out if it works as well as they say! *knock on wood + fingers crossed*

Dan Hintz
02-16-2015, 11:15 AM
There is also a Italian extinguisher product called Mangiafuoco (you can find youtube clips on it etc.). I have it next to my laser. It's supposed to not leave anything to clean when used and is quite cheap + handy. There has been some problems with this product in the past and they had to pull their products out of the market years back, but now they've made a new version of the product and it should work well.

Hope I never have to find out if it works as well as they say! *knock on wood + fingers crossed*

I'll take a look at it, but... I'm not sure if experimental/problematic fire control methods are something I want around when I need it to work the first time.

Jerome Stanek
02-16-2015, 11:16 AM
I have a Halon fire extinguisher next to mine no clean up involved.

David Somers
02-16-2015, 3:09 PM
Jerome,

Any concerns about possible health effects from breathing Halon if the concentration gets high enough?

When I went to local Fire Extinguisher services here in Seattle and described the type of fire possible and the issue of powdered extinguishers being such an issue to clean up after in a laser they had suggested halon. Then when they realized it would be used in a relatively small shop area (20x20ft) they backtracked and suggested CO2 instead.

Dave

Jerry Bruette
02-16-2015, 3:43 PM
There are replacements for Halon which have no effect on the environment, leave no residue of any kind and are safe to use in enclosed areas (no effect if you breath it).

Would the freezing effect that CO2 can have be bad for any of the components of a laser?

Jerome Stanek
02-16-2015, 4:39 PM
I don't think there would be a problem as we installed many in pharmacys. I wonder if the sudden cold would break a CO2 tube

Ed Maloney
02-16-2015, 4:54 PM
Jerome,

Any concerns about possible health effects from breathing Halon if the concentration gets high enough?

When I went to local Fire Extinguisher services here in Seattle and described the type of fire possible and the issue of powdered extinguishers being such an issue to clean up after in a laser they had suggested halon. Then when they realized it would be used in a relatively small shop area (20x20ft) they backtracked and suggested CO2 instead.

Dave

Interesting discussion. Can anyone else offer their opinions on the CO2? There was one post about the moisture left behind.

Rich Harman
02-16-2015, 5:07 PM
I have halon, water based (AFFF) and dry chem.

First I will use the water based stuff - aimed directly at the fire. Easy to clean up and does not go all over the place. If that is not effective I will use the halon. It is real halon so I don't think I can get any more of it. Last resort is the dry chem. A lot depends upon the type of fire. If it is a large fire then I may go straight to the halon - but how could it get to that point since I am always watching it?

I'm not worried about the halon. I wouldn't be staying in the room after using it, there's plenty of breathable air outside the shop. If I had a CO2 extinguisher I would use that after trying the water based stuff.

Michael Kowalczyk
02-16-2015, 6:07 PM
I have halons for both CNC and the laser Sorry for your loss Ed

Glen Monaghan
02-16-2015, 6:18 PM
I mentioned moisture to wipe up but that was from using my water spray bottle. I noted that there is no cleanup specifically attributable to CO2, other than the smoke or other by products from your fire.

Ed Maloney
02-16-2015, 6:39 PM
You didn't get rid of me yet Mike!

Cleaning is done and I am waiting on Epilog support to get their opinion of running a test job with the lid up to see if there are mechanical issues.

Scott Marquez
02-16-2015, 8:24 PM
Sorry about your machine Ed.
Because of your situation I'm going to look into setting up a Co2 gas flood system, using a 10 lb Co2 cylinder and some distribution lines.
I'm an outside salesman for a welding supply store, so we should have all the parts needed to create something.
Scott

joe claudio
02-17-2015, 12:36 AM
Im no genious ...
But I have read many fire "under" cover situations. least resort is that big EPO button.
my thought is AFTER EPO is a CO2 extrigiser .... fire .. needs 3 legs , fuel, heat,O2.. remove any one .. problem .. half resolved ....Dont mean to sound snarky .. AT ALL ... Im not a "fan" but it is what it is, of using that "AIR ASSIST" to clear "work space" BUT .... I am a fan of using an inert gas on a 2 stage or 2 diffrent regulators one for blowing gas at a "lower PSI " on work space and then using "SOME FLAME/SMOKE" sensor that is independant that will flood the work space if triggerd ....2nd valve DUMPS high volume inert gass into the laser .... I have it in my "mind" how it should work .. havent figured it all out ..... ..Light objects has 2 diffrent gass regulators. yes .. machine will need to be modified - drill a hole in the side or both sides for the dump nozzels .... if your machine is on fire and you open the lid , you introduce more O2 and create "vacume" that a flash effect .. I see it in my mind ..

Dan Hintz
02-17-2015, 9:58 AM
Sorry about your machine Ed.
Because of your situation I'm going to look into setting up a Co2 gas flood system, using a 10 lb Co2 cylinder and some distribution lines.
I'm an outside salesman for a welding supply store, so we should have all the parts needed to create something.
Scott


Im no genious ...
But I have read many fire "under" cover situations. least resort is that big EPO button.
my thought is AFTER EPO is a CO2 extrigiser .... fire .. needs 3 legs , fuel, heat,O2.. remove any one .. problem .. half resolved ....Dont mean to sound snarky .. AT ALL ... Im not a "fan" but it is what it is, of using that "AIR ASSIST" to clear "work space" BUT .... I am a fan of using an inert gas on a 2 stage or 2 diffrent regulators one for blowing gas at a "lower PSI " on work space and then using "SOME FLAME/SMOKE" sensor that is independant that will flood the work space if triggerd ....2nd valve DUMPS high volume inert gass into the laser .... I have it in my "mind" how it should work .. havent figured it all out ..... ..Light objects has 2 diffrent gass regulators. yes .. machine will need to be modified - drill a hole in the side or both sides for the dump nozzels .... if your machine is on fire and you open the lid , you introduce more O2 and create "vacume" that a flash effect .. I see it in my mind ..

Systems like this have been discussed before... having a flood system, particularly a DIY version, is extremely dangerous, particularly in a small workshop. People can die from asphyxiation. I hate to see a case where the coroner say s"Well, he survived the fire but died watching it get snuffed out."

Bill George
02-17-2015, 12:52 PM
I have worked in many large computer rooms with an installed Halon system. Before its discharged a warning light comes on and you have xx Sec's to vacate the room. After the discharge the room is ventilated. A little 10 lb CO2 extinguisher going inside a table or floor mounted laser is not going to be a problem. Ventilate the area. and leave.

Ed Maloney
02-18-2015, 1:30 PM
...This is the primary reason why Epilog recommends having a Halotron EExtinguishers...

How big of a unit of a Halotron should I get and where is a good place to purchase one?

Ed

Michael Kowalczyk
02-18-2015, 5:36 PM
You didn't get rid of me yet Mike!

Cleaning is done and I am waiting on Epilog support to get their opinion of running a test job with the lid up to see if there are mechanical issues.
don't want to Ed. your a great customer

Ed Maloney
02-21-2015, 5:03 PM
As an update the laser is now up and running. After the fire I find myself even watching the printer that does the mailing labels!

Won't be doing any 3mm acrylic until I get delivery of the Halotron extinguisher though.

Mark Ross
02-28-2015, 10:08 AM
We have our air nozzles set at maximum force on our Epilog 36 EXT's. We cut acrylic all day 5 days a week on two of them. It might sound counter intuitive, but blowing high pressure air on the area where we are cutting actually extinguishes flame ups. We have had two fires. Stricly due to lack of maintenance and having a bunch of polystyrene and acrylic build up on the vector grids.

Bill George
02-28-2015, 10:14 AM
As an update the laser is now up and running. After the fire I find myself even watching the printer that does the mailing labels!

Won't be doing any 3mm acrylic until I get delivery of the Halotron extinguisher though.
My CO2 extinguisher will be here Monday. Tried to buy one in town, but as usual no one seemed to stock and if they did order its $30 more than Amazon.

Matt McCoy
02-28-2015, 11:19 AM
Wow - those Halotrons are pretty spendy. I would like to have a couple and hope to never have to use them.

I'm partial to a small spray water bottle and CO2 extinguisher combo.

Detritus was mentioned here or another thread and might be one reason why some see flames under material, especially after a long day of cutting material like acrylic. I like to clean our tables with diluted orange cleaner instead of the Zep Purple.