C. 1870 Buck rip saw

[Kyle DuPont]

I just purchased this BUCK saw from a local shop for a pretty good price and I am trying to get some information on it. The saw has the "BUCK TOt COURT Rd" stamp, 8" deep, 28" long, and filed 2.5 to 3.5 TPI heel to toe. It has the drop London Pattern tote and old split nuts. The rust is very light, except for the spot next to the tote at the top. There is also a chip on the right side of the horn. I was really surprised at how comfortable the tote is.

I am looking to clean it up, even though I am not going to use it much. But I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction for dating the saw.

Thanks.

(I have a 3 more pics, but they wont upload right now.)

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[Jim Koepke]

Kyle,

Welcome to the Creek. I see you have been quietly around for a while now. Are you located in England?

If your files are too big the SMC software can't reconfigure them. You may have to save copies of them into jpeg files to get them to upload.

It seems the Buck family was rather large with some members coming to America and starting at least two different businesses, Buck Brothers and Charles Buck.

I have seen tools listed with different Buck names from England. Many members of the family worked in the edged tool trade.

The only help I can offer on dating the saw would be based on the saw nuts. This page is for Disston saws, but the chronology is similar for other makers as improvements by one maker were often copied by another:

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/medv2.html

jtk

[Kyle DuPont]

Yes, I have been lurking around for a while now.

I am in the states, but this retailer imports their tools from England. Thanks for the direction on Disston, I will look there.

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[Jim Koepke]

Kyle,

After seeing your second set of pics a search was done on > buck tot court rd < and brought up a lot of different information.

Seems there was a presence of Bucks on Tottenham Court Rd from about 1838 until the 1930s.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

I just purchased this BUCK saw from a local shop for a pretty good price and I am trying to get some information on it. The saw has the "BUCK TOt COURT Rd" stamp, 8" deep, 28" long, and filed 2.5 to 3.5 TPI heel to toe. It has the drop London Pattern tote and old split nuts. The rust is very light, except for the spot next to the tote at the top. There is also a chip on the right side of the horn. I was really surprised at how comfortable the tote is.

I am looking to clean it up, even though I am not going to use it much. But I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction for dating the saw.

Thanks.

Any idea what the purpose of that little round do-dad is on the top front edge of the saw?
Just kidding!
Seriously, that saw requires one pretty strong sawyer to operate doesn't it? A guy who could wield that thing all day is no one to mess with.

[Kyle DuPont]

Yes, that is where I hit a dead end. I've checked many different searches and the best that I have found for dating is the features.

The nuts seem to have fine slots. Any advice on removal? Should I build/grind a special tool for these nuts? I want to remove the rust by the tote soon given the severity of it.

Oddly enough, the plate seems to be taper ground.

[Jim Koepke]

My advice on removal would be not unless it is absolutely necessary. Then yes, make a special driver for the nuts and do not be surprised if the bolts break. Often those were sanded over when the saw was finished so the threads may have been mushed together. On early saw nuts the posts were soldered to the head. This makes them especially fragile.

Of course as always, 306688

jtk

[Kyle DuPont]

Yes, that nub was created as a joke to make people of the future ponder/argue/waste time. It was a guild secret and that is why there is nothing in the historical texts defining its true use. Hahaha!

I haven't sawn with it yet, nor do I plan to saw much with it. I just couldn't pass it by to get damaged more by being where it was.

Yes, these were sanded flush with the tote. The rust next to the tote is deep and seems to bleed under. I'll probably clean what I can without removal, unless someone else has any other suggestions.

[John Vernier]

I would also avoid removing the nuts or the handle. My experience cleaning up saws of this age is that the deep patina can hide a multitude of small defects, which pop out once you start to scour the metal - which leads to a disappointing appearance unless you sand very deeply, which would be a shame on a tool of this age. As the overall condition isn't too bad I would use a piece of sheet brass or bronze to scrape off the surface rust and any encrustation, without disturbing the patina. You should be able to work up close to the handle without too much trouble.

The problem with dating this style of saw is that we know that this type of handle goes back to before 1800, but it is unclear when they disappeared altogether - English toolmakers were very conservative.

I have a 2 1/2 tpi Groves rip saw, lots of fun for braking down thick softwoods!

[Tom M King]

One of my chainsaws is a Stihl 066 with a 42" bar. Every time we bring out that saw, someone says, "That's a Man's saw!" That handsaw is a Man's Handsaw!

[Kyle DuPont]

I'll give the bronze scraper a shot.

I just made a cut with it... wow. That is a fair amount of work and a large kerf.

[Peter Evans]

The struck mark on the plate is dated at c 1870 by Simon Barley, remember split nuts persisted in the UK well into the 20th century. The Barley book (I recommend it) is reviewed here http://www.taths.org.uk/news/157-barley-saws. For info on Briitish saws in general go to http://www.backsaw.net/, where Simon regularly contributes
Cheers
Peter

[Dave Beauchesne]

Kyle:

I am not up to speed on saws of that vintage, but I would be cautious before proceeding - could it have collector value? I see the tote is chipped on one horn, but it may be of value - -It sure is purty!

Good Luck!

Dave B

[Kyle DuPont]

Wow, thanks all!

Peter: Thanks for the date and the book recommendation. Being in the States, I forget the strongly held traditions of English manufacture.

Dave: I am worried about doing harm, but want to stabilize the plate. The rust on the plate is mild and new. The rust next to the tote is moderate to severe, but seems to have not compromised the integrity of the plate yet. I want to be sure that it is stopped. It would be icing on the cake if it had any real value. The beauty of the saw and the features present really drew me to it. But the honest reason for the purchase is the respect I have for the tool given it's age and condition. Even if i just stabilize and safely store it for the next generation, I will be happy.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Kyle:

If it is a true ' collector ' piece, the adage from the Antiques Roadshow is valid - ' DON'T CLEAN IT ' - the same goes for real collector tools; let the person buying it decide what they want to do to preserve it - that is the only advice I can give - If kept in a dry spot without temperature fluctuations, the amount the existing corrosion is going to advance over the next five years will likely be so negligible that it doesn't matter. As Jim said YMMV!

I would just hate to see it being a desirable saw and the value halved ( or worse ) because the wrong snake oil was applied to it, or some light cleaning ruined its collectability. Again, this is just my humble opinion.


Dave B

[Jim Koepke]

Just be glad it doesn't have a bucolic farm scene painted on it. :eek:

jtk

[Kyle DuPont]

HAHAHA, yes I am glad it doesn't!

[Rob Paul]

Its a nice looking old saw Kyle (pity about the recent chip off the horn) but not super rare as Buck brand saws were produced over many years (I've found a couple of similar Buck saws here at local estate sales in Ontario, although that doesn't mean I will ever find another).
Although the same handle shape, and split nut screws, were used on some English saws into the 1900s, I think an 1870/1880 guesstimate is closer to the age of your saw.
I wouldn't hesitate to work at removing the red rust, and more if you want to (It is your saw) to make it fully serviceable and presentable.
I don't usually try to remove the old split nut style screws as my past attempts have sometimes ended in poor results, but Phil Baker routinely removes the handles off rare old collector grade backsaws and recommends this be done (yes, you do need a special screwdriver that tightly fits the slots). As Jim says, you have to be careful with those screws as they are a lot more fragile than modern saw screws. You also have to carefully mark the location and orientation of each screw as you remove it because each one is a little different after being sanded flat to the handle during manufacturing, and they won't sit flat again unless they're replaced in exactly the same location and rotation. So be careful if you go ahead with removing the handle.
Good luck on your renovation.

[Peter Evans]

Kyle:

If it is a true ' collector ' piece, the adage from the Antiques Roadshow is valid - ' DON'T CLEAN IT ' - the same goes for real collector tools; let the person buying it decide what they want to do to preserve it - that is the only advice I can give - If kept in a dry spot without temperature fluctuations, the amount the existing corrosion is going to advance over the next five years will likely be so negligible that it doesn't matter. As Jim said YMMV!

I would just hate to see it being a desirable saw and the value halved ( or worse ) because the wrong snake oil was applied to it, or some light cleaning ruined its collectability. Again, this is just my humble opinion. Dave B
I doubt this saw is rare or valuable. If mine, I would clean the blade and sharpen it. I might not use it as I already have an adequate arsenal of saws. Removing the handle is a vexed question with split nuts - there is a good chance of damaging them; and if handle is securely fixed, I would not remove the nuts. I would also repair the handle.

The UK Antiques Roadshow experts (well, dealers anyway) consistently suggest to restore pieces.

[Jim Koepke]

The UK Antiques Roadshow experts (well, dealers anyway) consistently suggest to restore pieces.

American antique dealers are interested in getting top dollar (or top pound) more than they are about a tool getting to a person who will put it to use.

Often when you find a hollow and round planes sold through an antique dealer it has been sprayed with clear lacquer.

jtk

[Kyle DuPont]

What would be the benefit of spraying with lacquer? More shine, better pictures?

It would seem to trap grime under it, since I assume they would not a do a good job of cleaning.