Phenolic plywood?

[Marty Tippin]

I'm looking at a FWW plan for a table saw outfeed table and it calls for using phenolic plywood for the table top, since it is a durable, low-friction surface.

I'm not sure where to locate phenolic plywood near me, so I'm wondering whether it's really necessary or if there is an alternative that is more readily available and would work as well.

Ideas?

Regular Baltic birch maybe, with a wax finish? Melamine?

[Dave Cav]

It's also called MDO board or sign board. It's not available at the big box stores, but if you can find out where the local cabinet shops buy their plywood, they should have it.

[Bruce Page]

I bought some phenolic plywood from Woodcraft for a bandsaw table and some jigs. Very nice plywood but pricey.
That said, I made my outfeed table out of melamine. I banded the edges and reinforced the underside. It has stood up well.

[Jamie Buxton]

Darn near the same stuff is formica on your substrate of choice. You should be able to acquire formica in any good lumberyard. Even the big-boxes carry it, in a limited range of colors. But for shop furniture, color isn't very important.

[Peter Quinn]

I can order I'd from my local lumber yard, the wholesale distributor stocks it, has about a 3 day lead time, comes in several different colors. I'm told it's made as concrete form board, it's highly water resistant and very strong, it's a hig layer ply like Russian birch, expensive too. It's really good plywood, not sure I would bother for a TS outfeed table, I've always used melamine on particle board and just replaced it when it wears out, it lasts 10 years or so in a commercial shop, could go much longer in a home shop with less usage. If you really want to try it find out where cabinet shops order sheet goods and speak to them about ordering you a sheet, even here in the densely populated northeast not many yards stock it. Or the Formica idea works well too.

[ian maybury]

Just be a little careful to check out the material before buying. Over here there seem to be differing grades and finishes of phenolic ply available, and it's sometimes down to what the supplier has in stock. (they tend to be very non technical/will talk up whatever they have - and minimum order quantities mean buying non-stock stuff isn't usually an option) There's one that gets used for flooring trailers etc with a thicker coating and mesh pattern moulded into the finish for grip. Some of the concrete shuttering material is unsurprisingly a bit cheap and nasty, the phenolic is thin and the substrate isn't necessarily great. I've found at times that the stuff isn't all that flat or the phenolic surface acceptably tough or ding resistant - it's quite likely that if the ply has a soft top veneer that this will be the case.

Watch out for sharp corners on sawn edges.

A good quality material with a birch or similar hard top veneer might be OK - and there seemingly is decorative/furniture/structurally oriented stuff available.

Another to watch for is gluing the coated surface - it needs careful cleaning (water and then a strong solvent) and heavy roughing to get a reliable bond - it's semi gloss and likely has a coating of a release agent as it comes. It does seem to bond well with a structural polyurethane, likely also epoxies.

TBH i bought some to build a a rip table for my panel saw, but sold it on to a friend building a chicken coop when i discovered how minimally ding resistant the surface was. I ended up using self applied formica over birch ply (the surface of cheaper ply isn't reliably flat, and the stuff can have all sorts of bumps, kinks, stresses and warps built in and be soggy/not make a rigid panel - even cheap birch can be unreliable) which has worked out very well and proven highly wear resistant.

[John Coloccia]

I've used it, and I was unimpressed. I would use regular ply with some sort of finish on it, IMHO. My experience is that phenolic ply is one of those ideas that sounds great and should work great, but in practice it was disappointing.

[Joe Bradshaw]

I use half of a solid core door for my outfeed table. I brushed on a BLO finish. It has worked well for me. Damaged doors are readily available at the borgs or Habitat restores.
Joe

[Phil Thien]

The stuff I've seen in stock wasn't particularly flat. And the wear surface wasn't particularly thick.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'm told it's made as concrete form board, it's highly water resistant and very strong, it's a hig layer ply like Russian birch, expensive too.

Correct - concrete form board. But also - sign board - that's what all of those green highway signs are made from.


Just be a little careful to check out the material before buying. Over here there seem to be differing grades and finishes of phenolic ply available....

There are a number of different grades - specifically, the type and amount of resin used to impregnate the board, and the surface. As a concrete forming board, you can reuse the stuff - and the higher end can be used for more pours than the lower end. Then, there is the texture of the surface - from rough to mirror finish.

You could check for two types of places: 1] google for concrete forming supplies - those are the guys in that line of bidness; 2] sign shops - somebody will have it, and you can maybe make a deal for sheet or two.

[Marty Tippin]

Thanks for all the replies.

I did some more digging and it looks like the local Whitecap Supply (a commercial lumber yard, I think) stocks 3/4" phenolic ply intended for concrete forms. I'll go take a look, but it seems (given its intended use) that it probably won't be particularly flat. I also found that Menard's can special-order it, but wants an extra $14 fee for the special order and it's non-returnable. The nearest store is 50+ miles away, so don't think I'll take a chance on that.

Will look into local sign companies and see what I can find. Melamine sounds like a reasonable alternative as well, not sure I want to mess with Formica but I'm sure it would work.

The local hardwood store where I buy most of my lumber and plywood is "division" of a larger hardwood company that supplies most of the local cabinet shops in town, so if anyone can get the stuff, I'd think they can. But it seems like I asked them about it once and they just gave me a blank stare; I'll check with them again.

[Greg R Bradley]

If you are talking about Phenolic Faced Plywood, I'm pretty familiar with the stuff. I use it both for concrete forms in a heavy construction business and the nice stuff for ultra-strong and wear-resistant plywood. Its really great for industrial shelving. I've used lots in a document storage building.

Rockler sells the nicer stuff in 24"x32" 18mm pieces for jigs for $40. I pay $92 for the same stuff from Anderson Plywood in Culver City as a 4x8' sheet. Woodcraft sells the same stuff used for concrete forms in 24"x48" for $65 and also carries 12mm thickness. High prices and small pieces but it makes sense if you have to have it and hopefully you aren't buying more than a piece or two!

I don't think you need it for your application. It is really rigid and strong for its thickness due to the phenolic infused into the top layer on both sides. It is stable as you only have to seal the edges to avoid dimensional changes due to humidity.

I have to believe you could do fine with MDO and just use thicker material, two sheets, or closer spacing on the supports. If you need more wear resistance, just use formica, which would have lots more wear resistance than Phenolic Faced Plywood.

[John TenEyck]

As a couple of others have mentioned Melamine coated particle board is very slick, dead flat, and usually available from your local BORG for not a lot of money. Two layers and you have a very stiff and strong substrate, more than enough strength for an outfeed table, and it will last a very long time just pushing wood over it.

John

[Jim Becker]

MDO is a nice product if you can get it in a good quality grade. As an alternative, BB or other quality plywood covered with regular laminate (Formica) is a generally accessible solution. Years ago when I made a folding out-feed system for the cabinet saw I then owned, I used plywood and laminate. No question, it was a good choice.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Thanks for all the replies.

I did some more digging and it looks like the local Whitecap Supply (a commercial lumber yard, I think) stocks 3/4" phenolic ply intended for concrete forms. I'll go take a look, but it seems (given its intended use) that it probably won't be particularly flat.


Yeah - Whitecap is big in the bidness. Don't be too sure about the flat thing - some grades are used, as I said, for a mirror-like finish on interior/architectural stuff. Even the rougher grades have to meet specs.

[glenn bradley]

+1 on Whatecap. However, I used MDF, shellac and paste wax and the surface still looks and works great after years of use. The "need" for laminates will vary with your use. If you are gonna run a lot of ply or a lot of long material that isn't easily controlled, the outfeed surfaces are going to take that role. Wear will be comensurate with use ;-)

[Todd Hyman]

MDO is a nice product if you can get it in a good quality grade. As an alternative, BB or other quality plywood covered with regular laminate (Formica) is a generally accessible solution. Years ago when I made a folding out-feed system for the cabinet saw I then owned, I used plywood and laminate. No question, it was a good choice.
+1 on the laminate faced Baltic birch. It's held up well for 5 years now.

[scott vroom]

MDO is a nice product if you can get it in a good quality grade. As an alternative, BB or other quality plywood covered with regular laminate (Formica) is a generally accessible solution. Years ago when I made a folding out-feed system for the cabinet saw I then owned, I used plywood and laminate. No question, it was a good choice.Jim is being modest here. He designed an excellent and easy to build out feed table and published the free plans on his website. About 5 years ago we used Jim's plans to build ours from BB and formica. It's still in operation today. Jim, thanks again!sawsndust.com/p-outfeed.htm

[Joe Kieve]

I used 3/4 MDF and plastic laminate on mine about 6 years ago...no problems so far.