Thanks Mike! (Disston saw)

[Brian Holcombe]

Wow! This thing is an animal!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/BFBAB6D1-110A-4033-9490-B793E876B3C7_zpseywlkncs.jpg

I have two LN panel saws which I've been fighting with, I always thought it was my technique. So, I fire this bad boy up and went to town on some 8/4 walnut. This is the result of less then a minute worth of sawing, right on the line and without issue keeping it 90~ to the board.

[Brian Holcombe]

I triumphed over my laziness (just home from work still in a coat and tie) and clamped it to the saw bench of the remainder of the cut.

Mind you, this is just a line struck and eye-balled 90;

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/3B3E6D9D-D724-4F2E-9952-481390563DB2_zpspuorjrkl.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/B506C2F3-CDAA-4D2D-943F-2820970FDBDE_zpswqpap8ft.jpg

[Steve Voigt]

Ha! Nothing like the right tool for the job!
What are the specs (model, tpi, etc)?
So, how long would the cut in the first pic have taken with your panel saw?
Congrats--looks like a great acquisition, and now you've started down the slippery slope of old Disstons. Welcome to the club! :p

[Jim Matthews]

There's a World of difference between any old saw and one Mike tunes.

I occasionally haul out "Big Rip" for similar tasks.
I bought mine from Mike, many moons ago...

[Brian Holcombe]

Suffice to say that would have been a very long cut on the panel saw even hustling through it, easily 10 minutes. The LN panel saw can tackle up to 3/4" without issue but I've always had a hell of a time getting it to track straight and it doesn't do well in 8/4. What I plan to do is use it as the test pilot for my sharpening.

Mike gave me some specs on the saw, they are;
Disston #12
rake 5 degrees
fleam 0
gullets 30
plate is double ground .027" to .036"
set .010"

4.5 to 5.5 PPI, the variable pitch makes an easy start.

Jim, agreed I can tell by comparison to my untuned LN saws. It's a difference that feels comparable to taking a plane out of the box and using it and one where you put a good tune on it. I believe Mike has inspired me to begin down the path of saw tuning, an area of woodworking I really haven't gotten into much at all yet.

[David Wong]

That's intersting. This past weekend I ripped 6 3 ft lengths of 8/4 ash. It easily took me 20 minutes to rip each piece. Sounds like I need my saw tuned. Incidentally, it took me twice as long to accomplish the same rip with a 300mm ryoba. Just a data point.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Which Mike are you referring to?

[Maurice Ungaro]

Gotta be Mike Allen.

[george wilson]

Good job! But,there must be something wrong with your LN saw. Probably more set on one side than on the other. There's no reason why the LN would not do as well as any other saw.

[Brian Holcombe]

That's my feeling as well, I'm sure it's a day's worth of effort away from being something I cherish all the same. So it sounds like I'm headed for a self-taught saw sharpening apprenticeship.

George in measuring the LN saw, I have a plate thickness of .028", a set of .009". In measuring the set of individual teeth I get everything from .006" to .002". I found an area if the blade where in side is consistently measuring .002" and the other is .005". It's pretty much the center section of the blade.

Edit;
I found another potential trouble spot, it stands on the heal and toe when I put it on the bench. It's my understanding that a concave joint is worse than a bellied joint.

[Brian Holcombe]

Alright so with regard to the LN, I mocked up a saw vise, jointed the teeth. I then went down them maintaining their current profile.

I ran some test cuts. Still veering left, so I went down the right side teeth with a punch and lightly added set to every tooth. More test cuts and it seems to be tracking pretty consistently straight.

Not sure why I put this off for so long, even my very basic sharpening has really improved how well this saw cuts.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Good job! But,there must be something wrong with your LN saw. Probably more set on one side than on the other. There's no reason why the LN would not do as well as any other saw.
Brian, are you the original owner of that LN? If so, how much have you used it?

[Brian Holcombe]

Yes, and not much. My other LN saws have some hours on them. Safe to say I'm going to spend some time working through my saws. I've got the panel and dovetail done. Next is the big tenon saw.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Are the LN panel saws taper ground (just curious)?

Anyhow, a year or two back, I had LN make me a new saw for a Langdon miter box. It wouldn't cut square: top to bottom and in to out. The regular saw (marked MF, but probably a Disston) cut perfectly fine. I have upwards of 17 miter boxes and assorted saws, so I tested the LN saw in several other boxes and the same thing happened, as well as the MF saw cutting correctly. The saw went back to LN and when returned to me, cut the way it was supposed to. May have been a "Friday afternoon-made saw"! Anyhow, this is what happens when you want some bling in your shop-should have just stayed using the original saw.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I ran some test cuts. Still veering left, so I went down the right side teeth with a punch and lightly added set to every tooth. More test cuts and it seems to be tracking pretty consistently straight.

Some advice from Christopher Swartz (I read on his blog) and also from Ron Herman (he told me in person) is to use paper to get a consistent saw set.

Not sure how this works on a long saw like yours, but, you use paper (how many sheets depends on the paper thickness. I think that this was done with something like a dovetail saw so only one or two pieces of paper were used. The saw blade would be placed in a vice with metal jaws and the paper between the saw and the blade. Squeezing the saw would take care of the issue.

I have also seen the side hit with a file or a stone, but I expect that this would make the teeth narrower (because it removes metal), which probably weakens them. I have seen them at least lightly stoned regardless, was told it made it more uniform and sharper.

[george wilson]

I would never stone the sides of my saw teeth. It is better to get them set uniformly. The paper method could be used if it isn't possible to get the set uniform enough.

[Brian Holcombe]

Are the LN panel saws taper ground (just curious)?

Anyhow, a year or two back, I had LN make me a new saw for a Langdon miter box. It wouldn't cut square: top to bottom and in to out. The regular saw (marked MF, but probably a Disston) cut perfectly fine. I have upwards of 17 miter boxes and assorted saws, so I tested the LN saw in several other boxes and the same thing happened, as well as the MF saw cutting correctly. The saw went back to LN and when returned to me, cut the way it was supposed to. May have been a "Friday afternoon-made saw"! Anyhow, this is what happens when you want some bling in your shop-should have just stayed using the original saw.

I am not sure if they are taper ground. Maybe there is an occasional hiccup in the process. My backsaws all cut nicely right out of the box, but not the LN panel saw.


Some advice from Christopher Swartz (I read on his blog) and also from Ron Herman (he told me in person) is to use paper to get a consistent saw set.

Not sure how this works on a long saw like yours, but, you use paper (how many sheets depends on the paper thickness. I think that this was done with something like a dovetail saw so only one or two pieces of paper were used. The saw blade would be placed in a vice with metal jaws and the paper between the saw and the blade. Squeezing the saw would take care of the issue.

I have also seen the side hit with a file or a stone, but I expect that this would make the teeth narrower (because it removes metal), which probably weakens them. I have seen them at least lightly stoned regardless, was told it made it more uniform and sharper.

The paper seems like it could work pretty well, thanks for the idea.

i agree with George's sentiment with regard to stoning the sides, seems like it would not do well for the shape of the tooth.

[Jim Matthews]

This was done with a machinist's vise generating considerable torque.

That process presumes that the saw teeth are over set, and then compressed
in the final step - with the sheet of paper acting as a stop.

In practice, I find most of my saws that cut poorly or offline are underset.

[Brian Holcombe]

I added set because I felt a little room to steer is helpful in a panel saw.

I noticed that in tweaking these saws I minimized how often I would hit the front of a saw cut (like on a tenon) and the back would be off the line just slightly. I can flip the board to minimize that, but it not happening is better yet.

[Mike Brady]

Here is the LN description of their panel saw plates: " Taper ground blade - .032" to .026" thick, with a .005" set. Curly Maple handles. Cross cut 8 and 12 ppi. Rip 7 ppi."

Their panel saws seem a bit whippy to me; at least more flexible than the vintage saws I have. Perhaps the tensioning of the saw plates in older quality saws makes them less prone to deflection.

[Daryl Weir]

Personally I don't believe that the 20" 7ppi Lie-Nielsen rip should even be compared to a Disston 26" No.12 5 1/2 ppi rip that's been brought back into proper working order and I'll just leave it at that.

As far as side dressing is concerned, why not? I've been doing it for years now and don't see one problem with it and I was one that started out not doing it. Now it's not meant to take care of too much set. Instead, it's meant to "lightly" dress the the teeth, even up the set and overall make for a more robust outer cutting edge instead of the scratching point that Holly talks about. I probably go overboard and quickly hit each tooth about 5 times with a 42X and they look very even when sighting down the side of the blade. However, when you pass a dull file lightly down each side, you can see that they aren't quite perfect by the "very" small difference in the flat left on each tooth.

Here's what Holly (1864), Disston (1907 & 1923), Atkins (1907) & Simonds (1926) had to say.

306412306413306414306415306416

Take care,
Daryl

[Steve Voigt]

Daryl, thanks for posting those scans. And thanks, years late, for your saw-sharpening guide. Along with Pete Taran's and Matt Cianci's, it is something I still go back and read from time to time. It certainly helped turn me into a competent saw-sharpener, without spending a bunch of money.
I dress the teeth like you do, very lightly, just to knock off the burr and even the set a bit. Matt Cianci mentions putting a strip or two of blue tap on the saw, below the teeth, to raise the stone a few thou off the plate. I've found this helpful too.

[Mike Allen1010]

I triumphed over my laziness (just home from work still in a coat and tie) and clamped it to the saw bench of the remainder of the cut.

Mind you, this is just a line struck and eye-balled 90;

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/3B3E6D9D-D724-4F2E-9952-481390563DB2_zpspuorjrkl.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/B506C2F3-CDAA-4D2D-943F-2820970FDBDE_zpswqpap8ft.jpg


Very nice Brian – I think you're giving too much credit to the tool and not enough to the sawyer!

I'm glad you are enjoying the saw. As Steve mentioned, there's nothing like having the right tool for the job – how else could I justify to the LOML why I have all those saws hanging in the shop:)!


Cheers, Mike

[Mike Allen1010]

Personally I don't believe that the 20" 7ppi Lie-Nielsen rip should even be compared to a Disston 26" No.12 5 1/2 ppi rip that's been brought back into proper working order and I'll just leave it at that.

As far as side dressing is concerned, why not? I've been doing it for years now and don't see one problem with it and I was one that started out not doing it. Now it's not meant to take care of too much set. Instead, it's meant to "lightly" dress the the teeth, even up the set and overall make for a more robust outer cutting edge instead of the scratching point that Holly talks about. I probably go overboard and quickly hit each tooth about 5 times with a 42X and they look very even when sighting down the side of the blade. However, when you pass a dull file lightly down each side, you can see that they aren't quite perfect by the "very" small difference in the flat left on each tooth.

Here's what Holly (1864), Disston (1907 & 1923), Atkins (1907) & Simonds (1926) had to say.

306412306413306414306415306416

Take care,
Daryl

Daryl is authentically THE MAN when it comes to master level saw restoration, sharpening and tuning!

I have been woodworking for 30 years, and the like my fellow Neanders here in the cave have seen and heard my fair share of hype when it comes to tools. The reason I decided to get rid of my table saw many moons ago is I bought a Disston #12 from Darryl. When I used it for the first time it was truly a revelation for me – I had no idea a handsaw could cut so quickly, accurately and with so little effort.

It was truly an "ah ha" moment. Exactly like when I was 20 and used a well tuned Stanley plane for the first time, instead of the hardware store plane I had been using. After I took my first shaving, I clearly remember thinking "so this is how this is supposed to work!".

There are a few truly talented saw doctors working today who restore vintage saws for woodworkers, not just collectors, and I have saws from most of them. IMHO Darrell is absolutely the true master in every sense of the word. I am a saw geek and I freely admit it can seem more complicated than it really is. Nonetheless, I really believe there is a difference between a saw that been "sharpened" and one that has been precision tuned so that every element; toothline, geometry, set, the degree of plate polish etc. all work together in a coordinated way to provide optimal performance. Like everything else, it's a matter of degree and execution.

I've seen and used lots of vintage saws that were obviously well used for many years by preindustrial woodworkers to make a living. Clearly a lot of those old boys were better cabinetmakers/finish carpenters than they were saw tuners. They probably didn't have the luxury of fussing over there saw to squeeze every last bit of performance out of it because they had to get back to work to put food on the table.

Absolutely, hands down the best money I ever spent on a tool was buying a saw from Daryl. I know that may sound like hyperbole, but it's honest-to-goodness what I really think. I have no connection to Daryl other than as a very satisfied customer. If you've ever considered trying a premium vintage saw that been tuned/restored by real expert, you owe it to yourself to check out his website. I'm not sure if I can post a link here to old saws restored but I will try:

http://home.grics.net/~weir/Old_SAWS_Restored.html

All the best, Mike

[Brian Holcombe]

[I]


Very nice Brian – I think you're giving too much credit to the tool and not enough to the sawyer!

I'm glad you are enjoying the saw. As Steve mentioned, there's nothing like having the right tool for the job – how else could I justify to the LOML why I have all those saws hanging in the shop:)!


Cheers, Mike

I appreciate the kind words, cheers!

I have a feeling I will be keeping a hawk-eye in Daryl's site as well for a short depth tenon saw.

[Tony Zaffuto]

When saw guru Tom Law quit sharpening, he would only recommend one person to sharpen and that was Daryl Weir. I've never used Daryl's services, mainly because I have a horde of vintage saws that Law had sharpened for me, including rip, CC, panel and back saws. Through the years, I've learned to touch up rip and CC saws, but send out back saws (Bob Rozkewski does a great job), as my 60 something eyes are having difficulty, even with 3 times magnification!

[Reinis Kanders]

What is considered a reasonably good speed when ripping with a good handsaw?
Other night I was ripping some nice tight grain 2x12 Dug Fir for another workbench and I was getting about 2 min/ft, so it took me 50 min to cut about 25 feet.
Is that reasonable? I was using decent looking D-7 that feels pretty sharp, I got it from eBay for about $25.
I definitely got sweaty, but it was a cold night and it felt good:)

Thanks.

[Jim Koepke]

What is considered a reasonably good speed when ripping with a good handsaw?

This depends on a lot of factors.

My benchmark is my 6ppi, ~8º if rake, D-8 on 4/4 ash. About 15 minutes for a 10' rip. A coarser tooth pattern of 4ppi at ~5º rake was a bit faster, but was also much more tiring.

This isn't a real good comparison since you are working on thicker stock. My ash was kiln dried, your DF may still have some moisture to slow down the work.

jtk

[Matthew Serra]

Personally I don't believe that the 20" 7ppi Lie-Nielsen rip should even be compared to a Disston 26" No.12 5 1/2 ppi rip that's been brought back into proper working order and I'll just leave it at that.. . .
Take care,
Daryl

Hmm - not being in a position to know how to pick out a vintage saw, and will too little woodworking / hobby time available to try to get an old saw to cut well, I was really planning on getting a LN saw.

Is this to say the LN saws are not good (or minimally, worth what they ask)? If so, what is the groups recommendation on getting a good performing saw w/o dedicating a weekend or so to setup, or without being able to inspect and old saw prior to purchase? Or were you literally saying the specifications of the two saws are too different to compare?

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

deleted

(http://www.ebay.com/itm/BIG-FAT-UGLY-C-E-JENNINGS-FOR-LAKESIDE-L-112-28-5PT-RIP-SAW-HAND-SHARPENED-/121853405960?hash=item1c5f076b08:g:9X4AAOSwFqJWhZz z)

[Chris Hachet]

Mike Allen, is this the same guy as this guy ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/BIG-FAT-UGLY-C-E-JENNINGS-FOR-LAKESIDE-L-112-28-5PT-RIP-SAW-HAND-SHARPENED-/121853405960?hash=item1c5f076b08:g:9X4AAOSwFqJWhZz z

(http://www.ebay.com/itm/BIG-FAT-UGLY-C-E-JENNINGS-FOR-LAKESIDE-L-112-28-5PT-RIP-SAW-HAND-SHARPENED-/121853405960?hash=item1c5f076b08:g:9X4AAOSwFqJWhZz z)

Would also love to know. I am very well set on saws, but eventually plan on acquiring a couple more.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I don't think they like you to post eBay links here. You could probably just PM him (click on his name in the post above, and the private message option will come up), and get in touch with him that way.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I don't think they like you to post eBay links here. You could probably just PM him (click on his name in the post above, and the private message option will come up), and get in touch with him that way.


Ok, thanks :)