DNA vs Coleman Fluid "White Gas"

[Steve Huffman]

I’m seeing a few threads on DNA so….
Ok here’s a curve ball for you all. I was using DNA for soaking my projects with success like everyone else. I am now using “white gas”
also known as camp fuel or Coleman Fluid, and here’s why. I have been a taxidermist for over 30 years, and we wash our small mammals
and birds skins in white gas to remove fats, oils and water. All the unwanted material (fat) including water settles to the bottom of the bucket. So since
DNA mixes with water and becomes less affected, the white gas and water separated allowing to slowly pour off the good gas from the top into a clean bucket
and getting rid of the water at the bottom. I soak bowls for 24 hrs, sometime a few days and don’t think it make a difference, but at least 24 hrs.
I understand in advance that this is not for everyone, just like some taxidermist that think it’s too dangerous to have flammable material in their shops…ok cool,
this isn’t for you. But for those using DNA now, white gas can be used over and over, not anymore flammable than DNA, and leaves no odor in wood.
DNA here, I paid $15.00 per gallon, and Coleman fluid around $12.00 at Walmart.

Now, I have had great success so far with Aspen, Cottonwood, Oak, Box Elder and a few others. Some woods like pine or pitch wood I think I would stick with
DNA because the gas will not dissolve pitch, but the alcohol will, so unsure about that.

I’m not recommending anything here, just sharing with you all what I’m currently doing. I can tell you it works for me. I soak in a 5 gallon bucket with a very tight
fitting lid.
Remember, before some of you blast me for using white gas, I already said this might NOT be for everyone! I was also a firefighter for 15 years and I might be
more app to using this than others.

Steve

[Brian Brown]

Just don't use a blow torch for charring the edges! :eek::eek::eek::eek::D I have no idea how the white gas would work. I have never heard of this, so I am anxious to see the answers you get. I didn't know DNA would dissolve pine pitch, so I learned something good here today. I have some turning ideas using pine, but have avoided it because of the pitch. Thanks for the info.

[Bill White]

Isn't Coleman fuel naptha?
Bill

[Ralph Lindberg]

Yes
Coleman is Naptha, which is a mixture of cyclohexane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclohexane), nonane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonane), octane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane), heptane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptane), and pentane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentane)

It has an octane rating of about 50.

Obviously, from a quick glance at the included hydrocarbons, it's not that dissimilar to regular gasoline (octane, heptane).

Nothing I would use to soak wood in.

[Roger Chandler]

my concern would be about food safety.......especially for item that come in contact with food we eat. what might work for wood drying purposes, might not be so great for food items......carcinogens that cause harm to humans. sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen if someone who got sick were to trace it back to a bowl.

I wonder if residual VOC's might leech through a finish? :eek:

[Paul Gilbert]

I am baffled as to how petroleum distillates - naphtha, mineral spirits, or white gas - would help dry wood. Alcohol absorbs water and leaves behind a dilute water-alcohol mixture which evaporates faster than just water. It is the absorption process of alcohol taking up water that is the basis for the DNA soak process. Petroleum distillates, alcohol, and turpentine will all readily extract rosin from coniferous trees, as well as any waxes or oils present, but I don't see how this helps dry them.

[John Keeton]

For that matter, DNA contains hazardous materials, as well, including some that may be residual.

[Roger Chandler]

For that matter, DNA contains hazardous materials, as well, including some that may be residual.

I was thinking about that very thing, while I was typing my earlier reply, John..........I wonder if DNA is considered as toxic as naphta? I am not a chemist, and would never want any turning of mine to cause anyone sickness. That is the why of my earlier comment about leeching through a finish. Perhaps someone with more expertise than I have could speak to a finish's ability to seal off any VOC's, or if allowing a piece to totally dry [evaporate] the DNA will be sufficient with an added finish.

We do know that some alcohols are consumable by humans :rolleyes:;) so I wonder how toxic DNA is if allowed to totally evaporate prior to final finish? :confused:

[Scott Hackler]

The main difference I can see between white gas and Dna is the refinement and purity of the alcohol. The quick evaporative property of Dna makes it very safe to use, as well as it's flash point. The smell and toxicity would deter me from using the white gas. (knowing that Dna isn't a "safe" chemical as well)


The price point is a bit high for me too. I buy 5 gallon pales of Dna for $50 or so.

[Prashun Patel]

The main difference is that they are two completely different chemicals. Anything they have in common (flammability) is coincidental. DNA is a water soluble and is an alcohol. White gas/naphtha is a hydrocarbon and as such is oil soluble.

The way I understand alchohol drying is this way: Wood containing water in the cells is placed in a bath of alcohol for a couple days. The concentration of alcohol and water in the cells reaches equilibrium over time with the bath. This is possible because alcohol and water solubilize each other and hence can move freely over/through each other.

Then you take the bowl out of the solution, and the mostly dna remaining in the cells now passes through the cell walls more easily than the previous water could, and evaporates into the ambient air.

I would have thought that a water-containing bowl placed in a bath of white gas would repel the gas, and the gas would prevent the water from moving into the bath. It should in fact SLOW drying during the time it's emersed.

I would therefore think that any apparent drying you're seeing is coincidental and that your wood is just reasonably stable and would not have cracked even if you did nothing to it.

I'm not saying you're wrong - just that I don't understand the mechanism of displacement. Since I have an abundance of MS, I'd love for this to work!!!

[Steve Huffman]

I did forget to mention that I do not use white gas or DNA for edible bowls and as Roger mentioned, would not know for sure
how safe it would be. I'm not a chemist so wouldn't take that chance, and I have made a few small edible bowls and just let them
just dry naturally. I also want to say that the drying time is about the same using DNA /white gas from what I can tell, so no gain in dry time.
Again, one benefit is that you can separate the white gas from the water, were DNA gets diluted and weaker every time you add wet wood. Any water
settles to the bottom of the bucket. It's nice to see all the comments, and would nice to see a few try this and see what they think. I know it
works for me.

[Roger Chandler]

I guess it depends on the objevive......buying less of the drying agent? Seems like since the "white gas" [naptha?] is more expensive, it would not give you gains in the long run, unless the idea of refreshing every so often seems objectionable somehow?

I think experiments are neat......I applaud your effort here, Steve........just looking at the whole picture and wonder if it is cost effective, practical and a better alternative to DNA or other drying processes.

[Reed Gray]

I will stick with not wanting anything on my bowls that I can't eat straight out of the can, even if it doesn't taste good. For most people, the solvents, will evaporate out enough to not present problems. For those who are sensitive to them, there is always a risk.

robo hippy

[Steve Huffman]

Thanks Roger, your right if your getting a better deal on alcohol.
Sounds like I might be wrong about the cost? For me, Coleman was about $12.00 a gallon last time I bought. I priced DNA at "Crown" brand at Lowe's
last time I was there at $15.98. Now Scott is getting DNA for $10.00 for a 5 gallon pail, so maybe it's not a good deal if you guys are getting DNA or have
cheaper source.
BTW, I also experimented with regular unleaded gas from the pump. It also works and drys the same, but I air dried outside for an hour, then paper wrapped
the wood to dry on the shelf and stunk up my garage. Smelled like a gas station for a few days. Real cheap, but can't handle the smell...I wouldn't go there.
The white gas is no more smelly than the alcohol. One sure benefit is that it doesn't dilute or get weaker like the DNA does so I would have to say your going to
buy much less.

[Stan Calow]

Naptha is not soluble in water. DNA is ethanol (the same alcohol as in your beer) with a small amount of something more toxic like methanol or acetone, added to make it non-drinkable. So vodka would work too. Cant see how Naptha would remove water. It does dissolve fats and oils. May change the physical texture of wood to feel drier.

[Josh Bowman]

I'm concerned about the highly flammable vapors in gas. I fear pockets of it settling in your shop. A friend of mine, was severely burned with gas vapor that settled around him and ignited.

[Dan Hintz]

The main difference is that they are two completely different chemicals. Anything they have in common (flammability) is coincidental. DNA is a water soluble and is an alcohol. White gas/naphtha is a hydrocarbon and as such is oil soluble.

The way I understand alchohol drying is this way: Wood containing water in the cells is placed in a bath of alcohol for a couple days. The concentration of alcohol and water in the cells reaches equilibrium over time with the bath. This is possible because alcohol and water solubilize each other and hence can move freely over/through each other.

Then you take the bowl out of the solution, and the mostly dna remaining in the cells now passes through the cell walls more easily than the previous water could, and evaporates into the ambient air.

I would have thought that a water-containing bowl placed in a bath of white gas would repel the gas, and the gas would prevent the water from moving into the bath. It should in fact SLOW drying during the time it's emersed.

I would therefore think that any apparent drying you're seeing is coincidental and that your wood is just reasonably stable and would not have cracked even if you did nothing to it.

This pretty much mirrors my thoughts. Coincidental (placebo?). Without solubility of water, the solution really has no appreciable affect on the cell membranes (or their contents).

[Roger Chandler]

I think unleaded gas is just dangerous on many levels............I would not go there, any way, any how! Your mileage may vary, but I think getting into this type of experimentation is a problem in and of itself, and ups the potential for unintended consequences..............:eek:

[Steve Huffman]

I'm concerned about the highly flammable vapors in gas. I fear pockets of it settling in your shop. A friend of mine, was severely burned with gas vapor that settled around him and ignited.

Ok, like my original post stated, it's not for everyone and we have to be reasonable here too and use ventilation with any flammable material. Is DNA not flammable, or would you use lacquer finishes without ventilation? But I will tell you that it needs to be respected
like any other flammable liquid, used and stored properly. I have used white gas for 30 plus years in the taxidermy trade without any problems. I'm not asking anyone to use white gas, DNA, unleaded or anything for that matter, just sharing
what I'm doing and whats working for me. Don't even know why it displaces water, but things are drying in the same time as using DNA would.
Try it, don't try it, it's not for everyone. Not everyone in the taxidermy trade uses it either, but we would be lost without it. :D

[Tom Wilson66]

To add to the confusion, many turners also use dish soap to dry wood. I really don't know how soapy water will dry wood, but it seems to. Also, if there is water at the bottom of the white gas at the end of the soaking period, that does show the gas displaces the water instead of absorbing it. This by itself would speed up the drying process. I wonder if soaking in white gas followed by dna to get more of the water out of the wood would make it even quicker? Don't know what mixing white gas and dna would do, but I would use very small amounts which would be mixed outdoors by remote control to find out!

[robert baccus]

Complexity, difficulty and dangerous stuff do not guarantee results. Wax is 16.00$ a gallon and will do many bowls with a 98% success record.

[Ralph Lindberg]

To add to the confusion, many turners also use dish soap to dry wood. I really don't know how soapy water will dry wood, but it seems to....

LDD has been fairly well debunked as a method. People that have actually done full testing have found disappointing results.
I once had a chance to chat with a forest products person familiar with drying methods, he laughed at LDD for reasons much like your question.
He did know about DNA and gave several reasons why industry doesn't use it, including expense and difficulty predicting results.

[John Keeton]

There are so many variables involved in drying rough outs - wood species, local ambient conditions, etc., that it is difficult to say that any method is the "best" or "worst." I don't do a lot of bowls, and many of the ones I do are from dry wood. However, of the rough outs I have done in soft maple, cherry and walnut, I have had 100% success (warping, but no cracking) by simply Anchorsealing the exterior and rim, leaving the interior bare. I toss them under my workbench and pull one out when the mood hits. On average, they are dry enough to turn in about 3-4 months. I believe this method permits the bowl to shrink toward the exterior and minimizes any tendency to crack. Seems to have worked well for me, and it is cheap, quick and easy.

Again, I guess it depends on your time constraints and other factors mentioned and not mentioned. My method may or may not work for you.

[Thom Sturgill]

[snip]
We do know that some alcohols are consumable by humans :rolleyes:;) so I wonder how toxic DNA is if allowed to totally evaporate prior to final finish? :confused:

DNA has additives to specifically make it poisonous to bypass alcohol taxes. The additives vary but include methanol, keytones, naptha, and others including syrup of ipecac to induce vomiting and pyridine to give it a bad odor.

Not sure, but I do not think I would want ipecac residue in a bowl either.

[Josh Bowman]

I have had 100% success (warping, but no cracking) by simply Anchorsealing the exterior and rim, leaving the interior bare. I toss them under my workbench and pull one out when the mood hits. On average, they are dry enough to turn in about 3-4 months. I believe this method permits the bowl to shrink toward the exterior and minimizes any tendency to crack. Seems to have worked well for me, and it is cheap, quick and easy. And I've had great luck just dropping fresh rough outs in a card board box with the flaps loosely closed. This is how John Jordan and some other pros do it. So far I've not had a single crack out of the 8 or so I've dryed this way. This is similar to John K's method. ....just slow and control the drying process.

[Reed Gray]

I like Mike Mahoney's method. He dries his blanks in his wine cellar. Perfect temperature and humidity, in the 60 degree range, and 70% humidity, but I don't drink, so will never have that option. I have thought about a drying room some time, which would do the same thing. Bathroom type sheet rock on the walls, damp floor, dehumidifier, temperature control... Just too much work. Drying a once turned bowl is easier than drying a twice turned bowl rough out, and faster. I had tried the bagging method for madrone, and it just didn't work well, but then again, that is madrone. I have no idea how the idea that the LDD soak aided drying. I think that came about after the DNA soak method started going around the woodturning world. For sure, it made no difference in the once turned bowls, but then neither did the DNA soak.

Drying is an art form, and there is no 'one size fits all' or even a 'one size fits most'.

robo hippy

[Bob Bergstrom]

The easy solution to all these problems is to fine someone making some good moonshine. Submurge the bowls, and drink the left overs while the bowl drys. No more worries about food safe. It has been well test during the drying process

[Reed Gray]

Bob, that makes me think about how bad cottonwood smells, or persimmon, or walnut...... Cherry might be nice though...

robo hippy

[Roger Chandler]

The easy solution to all these problems is to fine someone making some good moonshine. Submurge the bowls, and drink the left overs while the bowl drys. No more worries about food safe. It has been well test during the drying process
That is WAY too far out for me......YUK! :eek:

[Bob Bergstrom]

Bob, that makes me think about how bad cottonwood smells, or persimmon, or walnut...... Cherry might be nice though...

robo hippy
Reed, good whiskey is aged in burnt white oak barrels, so how bad can a bowl be? Elm around here would be bad one also.