How much practice for dovetails cut like Rob?

[Gene Davis]

I am a pretty good machine woodworker. As for hand tools, have them and can use them, but have not tried through-dovetailing. Did a little project with half-blinds once and the results were not what I wanted to get.

Watched the Rob Cosman video where he cuts a perfect joint in a couple pieces of pine, his only marking tool being the roller gage. I have one.

You know the video. The one where he uses a small piece of steel the same thickness of his saw's kerf to offset the just-cut tails piece to mark out for the pins with the tip of the saw.

So, how much practice would one need to do that? I have some drawers to make with clear alder and was thinking of cutting it by hand.

And this. His saw is a marvel, but what could I get that would not run me the $250 they want for the Rob saw?

[Sean Hughto]

Pine is very forgiving as far as compressibility. This is sort of parlor trick that is useful to show the steps and inherent simplicity of the joint, but not really a realistic thing one needs to do in the shop.

As far as time, there is a talent element. If you are generally good with your hands and eyes, coordinated, etc. you might be sawing respectable dovetails in ten tries. If you are more clumsy than deft, it make take much longer.

Any saw will work. It's what you get used to.

[Chris Hachet]

I am a pretty good machine woodworker. As for hand tools, have them and can use them, but have not tried through-dovetailing. Did a little project with half-blinds once and the results were not what I wanted to get.

Watched the Rob Cosman video where he cuts a perfect joint in a couple pieces of pine, his only marking tool being the roller gage. I have one.

You know the video. The one where he uses a small piece of steel the same thickness of his saw's kerf to offset the just-cut tails piece to mark out for the pins with the tip of the saw.

So, how much practice would one need to do that? I have some drawers to make with clear alder and was thinking of cutting it by hand.

And this. His saw is a marvel, but what could I get that would not run me the $250 they want for the Rob saw?


Less expensive Japanese saws will also work fine. A local woodworker I know has cut a few thousand dovetails with one, it is just now starting to get dull. the Lie nielson saw is a great western style saw, and is IIRC around $125. Both will work for tenon work and some general joinery as well.

Good luck!

[Mike Henderson]

I cut a lot of dovetails with a small Dozuki. They sell for maybe $35 to $40. I think a woodworker who has moderate skills can do very good dovetails after about 10 practice sets. You will find that they get better each time.

But dovetails require great precision and care. Precision in sawing to the line (or sawing wide and trimming with a chisel) and care to clean out the sockets completely so the tails will fit in. Rob's DVD is a good source for instruction and there are many other tutorials. I have some tutorials on my web site - here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/ThroughDovetails.htm)and here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Half-BlindDovetails.htm).

Hand cut dovetails are really not that difficult. I teach dovetails and most of the students come out with very acceptable dovetails on their first try. We do two sets of dovetails in the class and most people's second set are much better than their first. They see what they did wrong the first time and don't make the same mistakes again.

Mike

[As Chris said, the LN is a very good western dovetail saw for about $125]

[ken hatch]

I am a pretty good machine woodworker. As for hand tools, have them and can use them, but have not tried through-dovetailing. Did a little project with half-blinds once and the results were not what I wanted to get.

Watched the Rob Cosman video where he cuts a perfect joint in a couple pieces of pine, his only marking tool being the roller gage. I have one.

You know the video. The one where he uses a small piece of steel the same thickness of his saw's kerf to offset the just-cut tails piece to mark out for the pins with the tip of the saw.

So, how much practice would one need to do that? I have some drawers to make with clear alder and was thinking of cutting it by hand.

And this. His saw is a marvel, but what could I get that would not run me the $250 they want for the Rob saw?

Gene,

I agree with Sean, while RC is a skilled woodworker it is somewhat of a parlor trick to use two soft woods or a soft wood/hard wood combination to make a demo dovetail. There are a couple of things to remember, dovetails are a construction joint and only recently have they become a "show" joint. That is not to say a tight well fitting joint is not the goal but for drawer construction the important objective is a strong joint. I never counted the number of dovetails I cut before I felt I could use the joint in constructing drawers or case work but I expect it was less than 50.

Even the best worker will sometimes have small 'goofs" when joining two hardwoods, As you work with dovetails you find ways to cover the "goofs". What all this blather means is: Take some practice boards, cut a couple of dozen sets of dovetails then do your drawers. Even if not perfect the joints will/should be strong and no one other than another woodworker will notice the "goofs" nor will they care.

I like Backsaws, never have been comfortable with Japanese or Gent's saws, others differ. While I'm sure the Cosman saw is a good saw the most important considerations with a Backsaw are how well is it set and is it sharp. While hang is important for comfort, if the set is correct and it is sharp one saw will work as well as another. The Veritas saws are as good as any and are IIRC less than $100 USD for all but the large Tenon saw. Before I spent $200+ USD on a heavy plastic handled saw I would buy the Gramercy 9" dovetail saw from TFWW, it goes the other way instead of heavy like the Cosman saw it is very light and is an absolute delight to use for cutting dovetails.

Full disclosure: While I have all the Veritas saws with the exception of the Gent's saw and use 'em often, I also have a full set of Bad Axe saws and misc other high end saws, what can I say other than I like saw bing.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

I am a pretty good machine woodworker. As for hand tools, have them and can use them, but have not tried through-dovetailing. Did a little project with half-blinds once and the results were not what I wanted to get.

Watched the Rob Cosman video where he cuts a perfect joint in a couple pieces of pine, his only marking tool being the roller gage. I have one.

You know the video. The one where he uses a small piece of steel the same thickness of his saw's kerf to offset the just-cut tails piece to mark out for the pins with the tip of the saw.

So, how much practice would one need to do that? I have some drawers to make with clear alder and was thinking of cutting it by hand.

And this. His saw is a marvel, but what could I get that would not run me the $250 they want for the Rob saw?

There are a lot of little things that add up to good dovetails.

Cutting a single dovetail in a piece of pine is fairly easy. It is cutting two or more on a board that brings in the difficulty. For simplicity the procedures discussed here are based on cutting the tails first. The main points are pretty much the same if you cut pins first.

Wheel gauge or roller gauge are misleading names for these tools. The cutting edge isn't supposed to turn when the gauge is in use. The cutter is just a round knife so the orientation isn't a problem for a user if their wrist turns while marking a piece.

I haven't watched the video you mention about offsetting the work pieces when marking pins from the tail board. I did see the technique used by Glen Drake about 10 years ago at a tool event in Oakland, California. (http://www.glen-drake.com/) It is getting close to that long ago that my residence was in California.

Part of the reasoning of this method is the area being marked on a pin board from the tail board is not in the waste. This is the reason "sawing to the line" is important because if you "split the line" your dovetails will be loose.

In using pine my experience is it often moves if the weather changes. Even if the pieces are flat when you start, they may cup or swell before the glue is applied.

The particular saw isn't as important as is the user being comfortable using the saw. Some of my better dovetails have been made with cheap saws from the 1950s and '60s.

One very important step in making dovetails is the ability to saw straight and square. Once my tails are cut, they are checked for square. Any discrepancies are carefully attended to with a paring chisel. Once the tails are proper, they are used to mark the pin board and any paring to fit after that is only on the pin boards.

Some will insist that your dovetails are not any good if you can't get them to fit straight from the saw without paring. If one were in a production shop, that might be an important skill. It is a lofty goal of which my dovetailing skills have yet to reach.

Most of the time my pins and tails are made slightly proud so they can be planed flush when the glue has dried.

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

For saws, if your hand is average size, the Veritas (sold by Lee Valley) is as good as any for about $65. It mostly gets dinged because it does not look like a traditional saw. For saws, you are paying (above BORG grade schlock) for things such as quality filing and proper setting and then appearance.

Kevin Glen-Drake uses a feeler gauge to offset the perfectly marked line by 0.005 before/while using the Kerf Starter. The thought being that a perfect fit is too tight - you cannot assemble the joint.

In terms of practice, you should be able to make a usable (not appearance good) on your 1st or second try. The tails have to be absolutely square to the the tail boards face. If you can do that and if you mark your pins from the tail board (tails 1st) then angular cut need not be precise. The pin cuts must be absolutely vertical (relative to the pin board edge.) The angle of each tail is taken care of by the marking. Sawing is important but care of the baseline is equally as important for appearance. Do not allow the chisel to push back from the scribe line. Once cut, most folks leave the tails alone and concentrate adjustment paring on the pins. It's just as important to keep the chisel vertical as it is the saw.

Practice count: some folks can do a good appearance grade joint within 10 trys. Others (like me) don't get it down after many tries. OTOH, I've had to learn to saw 1st. I should be able to actually see the line now that I've got MK II eyes and get my glasses in a couple weeks. If you can already confidently saw a straight and square line just practice cutting to your preferred tail angle until you've got that down. Then, if your chiseling techniques are up to snuff, you should be good to go in one or two practice runs. You do need to do a practice run so you can determine where you stand relative to your expectations.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Gene:

The first big project I did was a Tansu for our son's wedding gift. It was quite small, and had 104 ' tails ' all told. I was using
Western Maple - ( a lot harder than pine ) and by about tail # 80, things were going together pretty well.

As for a saw, a Zona saw works well - price can't be beat, but I have a LN Dovetail Saw with .015'' thick plate.

The Glen Drake ' rolling ' marker ( and corrected by Jim that it doesn't roll ) is great; I have a GD and a LV offering - use them both - BUT, they perform much better if sharpened first!

Good Luck!

Dave B

[Maurice Ungaro]

All of the above advice is spot on. Practice makes much better, if not perfect. As for the saw itself, well, if I were buying a plastic handled dovetail saw, I certainly wouldn't pay more than $25....and that's not a hard and fast rule. My Silky folding dovetail saw cost about $50, or so, but it also came with an extra blade. That being said, some great Japanese style saws are very affordable. I've owned the Lee Valley version, and prefer some traditional western DT saws more. Certainly, the Grammercy saw is very nice, made in the USA, select materials a great value - a bit less than Mr. Cosman's. Last year I picked up a Lie-Nielsen DT saw with a taped saw plate. At $125, it's a bargain. It has excellent weight, minimal set and drives like a nice sports car. I REALLY like this saw.

Heck, for the cost of Cosman's saw, you can get a LN and a Japanese style saw, and a vintage saw, then see what you like best. Can't tell where you live, as you don't have your home port listed, but there are many good venues for vintage tools. Of course, you can just go with a tried and true new saw, and if you find out it's not your cup of tea, well, I'm sure you can sell it in the Classified section here at the Creek.

One word about the plastic handles. I'm sure Cosman's saw handles are some nice type of Corian, but it's still plastic. The difference is immediately noticeable when you pick up a well shaped wooden version. There's a warmth to it. The Corian adds some weight, but I'd rather have the weight provided by a substantial back (as in the LN version).

let us know where you are located, and we might be able to steer you towards some outlets for saws that you can try before you buy.

[Jim Matthews]

Mastery comes at a 10,000 hour price.
You're not seeing his first hundred dovetails in any video.

Get a decent rip saw and make a few.
Remember that the holding power is in the long grain/long grain glue surfaces.

There are lots of tricks to fill unsightly gaps in dovetails.
(I use many.)

There's a reason molding became popular in making cabinets.

[Bob Strawn]

Been there and lost it. Do a basic project and you have done at least 4 and probably eight. Do several projects and you can get good at it. making them tight and have them hold a 90 degree joint on their own. It really does not take that much practice. You mark and then cut to a line a short distance without deviation. I got it down and then didn't do a dovetail for over a year. Now I am embarrassed to say I have the concept and have lost the skill. I can still do great bandsaw dovetails, but for hand work I will need to practice to get it back. It does not take a lot of practice to maintain the skill, so instead of thinking how many you have to do to get the skill down, think that you should do a couple of practice ones several times a week and do a couple just before you use your skill to make something with dovetails. Dovetail all your scraps. Try to make interchangeable dovetails. Hold yourself to a high standard in order to reach a high standard. Make experimental dovetails.

Making tofu presses is great practice while being inexpensive. Small boxes made from cedar picket are cheap enough to make. Cedar is easy to work and has a bit of give allowing a tight fitting. Make dovetailed bat and bird houses. Make lots of them.

Bob

[Jim Koepke]

One word about the plastic handles. I'm sure Cosman's saw handles are some nice type of Corian, but it's still plastic. The difference is immediately noticeable when you pick up a well shaped wooden version.

One thing in favor of wooden handles, they are easy to repair when need be. Another is it is easy to take a little material off if they are tight.

jtk

[Kent A Bathurst]

Ditto....

I got a pine board at the BORG - probably 8'. Cut it into 6" pieces, and went to town, making joints, sometimes making a box with 4 sides. I sometimes went to the CMS and cut it back to 5" to try again.

The point above about getting comfortable with a saw is the trick, to be honest. You have to learn how to position your body so you make repeatable saw cuts. Don't have to do it like anyone else, but there are some tricks you can learn all over the place - here, big names on the internet, IIRC some good vids on the LN site. The big think is repeatability - muscle memory - when making the cuts: That way, you know for sure where the blade is going, and what the cut will be. When you step up to the end of that board, and drop the blade down, you have to be doing the same way you did it the last 5 dozen times.

[Derek Cohen]

I am a pretty good machine woodworker. As for hand tools, have them and can use them, but have not tried through-dovetailing. Did a little project with half-blinds once and the results were not what I wanted to get.

Watched the Rob Cosman video where he cuts a perfect joint in a couple pieces of pine, his only marking tool being the roller gage. I have one.

You know the video. The one where he uses a small piece of steel the same thickness of his saw's kerf to offset the just-cut tails piece to mark out for the pins with the tip of the saw.

So, how much practice would one need to do that? I have some drawers to make with clear alder and was thinking of cutting it by hand.

And this. His saw is a marvel, but what could I get that would not run me the $250 they want for the Rob saw?

Hi Gene

A couple of points about Rob ..

1. He is a good bloke, and most of us learned a huge amount watching his videos. I would recommend watching these, and not the Youtube freebie, where he is simply showing how quick he is. To be quick he takes short-cuts. One of these is in transferring the tail saw cuts to the pins with his saw. To do this he needs to offset the tail board by the width of his saw, hence the "small piece of steel". This is not for beginners (although it is not difficult at all) - learn to mark out, saw and transfer marks the long way first before you begin with short cuts.

2. The Cosman dovetail saw has a built-in laser guide. That's what you pay for. Actually, I think that here is a new model out that has a motorised hand that moves the saw for you. Just kidding. I've not used Rob's saw, but it looks excellent. Nevertheless, you would be better off with the Veritas 14 pip, which is very easy to start, tracks perfectly, cuts well, and is a fraction of the price. There is no better new dovetail saw on the market for someone starting along this path. (There may be better saws around, but they tend to be more demanding in terms of skills already developed).

3. While saw practice on Pine is well and good, as it is cheap, chiseling out the waste on Pine boards is a pain in the butt. That is not for beginners. So, practice sawing on pine, and practice chiseling on something that does not chip out (Cherry?).

4. The removal of waste requires that you either chop it out or saw-and-pare it out. If the latter, you will need to look out for either a fretsaw or a coping saw. The cheaper of the two is an Olsen coping saw.

5. The real test of sawing dovetails comes when you are joining hardwoods, and especially hardwoods that have very little compression. You are not expected to saw accurately enough without quite a bit of practice under your belt. On the other hand, drawers tend to join a hardwood front with softer woods on the sides. The softwoods compress nicely and the result can be impressively tight/gap-free.

Some one here must show off a dovetail or two ... :)

Fiddleback Marri (very hard) ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Kist_html_5964aa49.png

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Kist_html_m143e34e7.jpg
Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

I suggest practice using Rob's layout techniques. Good layout makes it easier to cut good dovetails. With practice, both layout and the cutting process will improve.

The problem with practice is that most people hate to risk expensive wood, or critical cabinet parts, while learning and making all the mistakes we all make while learning new skills, and so they hesitate and don't get the needed practice.

I suggest you get some inexpensive well-dried softwood boards. Pine is fine, but not Doug Fir or Southern yellow. Something without too strong a strength difference between summer and winter grain. Sugar pine is perfect. Alder in some locales is cheap. If you can get your hands on sassafras, its a wonderful wood. Even lauan is OK. You get my point.

Glue up a bunch of boards. Start making wooden boxes to replace the cardboard boxes you use to store stuff in your shop or pantry or closets or kid's bedrooms. Don't need a lid, but a lid is easy to add. Just cut some handholds in the ends.

They are just boxes, so they don't need to look great, and if the dovetails aren't perfect, no one will notice, but at the end of the exercise, you will still have a useful product, one that will last many years and give good useful service. Real satisfaction is a great motivator.

Paint them with milkpaint and go for the rustic look. Better yet, make painting them a family activity. The kids or grandkids or nieces and nephews will love painting trucks, bunnys, cartoon characters, or whatever they love most on their boxes. And they will treasure those boxes for a long long time. I still have one my father made for me, and I painted with my family, when I was a boy over 50 years ago. My box is not dovetailed, but held together with screws and metal corner straps. It has a pirate flag with skull and crossbones painted in gold paint on a black background that Dad laid out for me. Its really beat up but I wouldn't trade it for a carved ebony coffer filled with pearls.

After 5 boxes or so, and if you pay attention and try to do a better job each time, you will notice your skill and speed and confidence increase dramatically. And if the first few boxes turn out out to be abortions, screws and hardware can add character. Its all good. :)

Two cents.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Create a practice dovetail joint each day for 30 days.

Create a practice setup with a soft wood such as Poplar (I have also used Cherry scrap). I try to avoid pine for dovetails if I can.

If your boards are not uniform, square, etc, then you will have poor results.

At least when you start, test your cuts to see if they are perpendicular to the face.

It is easier to cut a dovetail in 1/2 inch wood than in 1 inch wood (since if your angles are off a bit, the difference is greater with 1 inch wood).

I was feeling pretty good about my dovetails after creating some nice looking dovetails in cherry (kind of soft), and then I created a dovetailed Tansu for my wife made out of some very hard wood (hickory??). Wood that does compress is not forgiving. Ouch! Goodbye ego!

[gary Zimmel]

I practice with soft woods as I think it is harder to get a real nice joint. Soft woods are prone to tearout with a chisel unless it is real sharp. For soft woods I have chisel set ground down to 17 degrees.
Practice does make one better but I found a little instruction really goes a long way.
It's ones sawing technique that make or breaks a nice fitting dovetail. So that's what one should concentrate on.
As for a saw I have more than a few of them.....
The one with the "plastic handle" has been my go to dovetail saw for the last few years....
A LN saw was what I first used and was real nice to work with.

A bunch of years ago I went to a class put on by Rob.
Never made a hand cut dovetail before the class but came out being able to do this consistently.

306196

Thanks again Mr. Cosman.....
The trickery that you taught me seems to make my projects look better.


.

[Thomas Schneider]

Hi Gene,

I wouldn't recommend a Japanese saw to start off with. They cut on the pull stroke and that can take some getting used to! Why add another wrinkle to the processes (Unless you already know how to use one). Like others have stated don't practice with pine, try poplar or cherry if you have it. I know the Lowes near me sells soft maple project boards that are inexpensive and good to practice with. I think people tend to place too much importance on the brand of dovetail saw. Don't get me wrong, I would love to own some of the hand made boutique saws that are out there! But as you stated, your a power tool woodworker and after some trial and error might find hand tool woodworking just isn't your thing. The last thing you need is to drop $200 + on a saw that's just going to sit on a shelf. All a dovetail saw NEEDS to be is sharp, straight and set correctly so it tracks straight. If you have a woodworking club in your area maybe someone could lend you a couple of saws to try out. If your on Long Island I could lend you a few. The bottom line is practice. Start out practicing cutting a straight line. I started out by marking straight lines every 1/4" on the end of a 1/2" thick poplar board and just worked at sawing to the waste side of the line. The closer you can cut to the line the less correcting you will have to do with the chisel and that's always a good thing! There are lots of different techniques on how to cut dovetails and all of them work. Try a few and pick one you like and then just keep practicing till you get the results that make you happy.

Good luck!
Tom.