Feel like I've forgotten all I know about staining - [blotching]

[Mike Dowell]

I've not been at this long - a couple years or so. I was taught using Minwax stains for the most part. Minwax has it's place - Red Mahogany wiped over mahogany, or Dark Walnut wiped over walnut. But, when it comes to blotching, I'm facing more and more trouble.

I don't really know all the woods that blotch. I've wiped Red Mahogany pigment oil stain on poplar and it is smooth, and I've done it on other poplar and it blotches up. I recently talked to a guy at Mohawk and he suggested light coats of an alcohol dye, thus removing the problem of blotching. I've tried it and it's OK but not amazing. I've used water based dyes like WD Lockwood but again, if you flood the piece, it blotches. My problem is that I don't see the blotch coming. It seems that SOME maple blotches and SOME maple does not. So how am I supposed to know? I can't deal with unpredictable results from different wood species - or that I got a good result from one cut of a species but a horrible result from another cut of the same species.

I guess I'm getting to a point where I've changed so much of what I do, to prevent unwanted results, that I often feel like I don't even know what I'm doing anymore. I used to look at a Mahogany table and think "I know exactly what I'm doing with that and it will be amazing!" but lately, I've gotten so many jobs in where it isn't a simple mahogany veneer, instead it's a maple chair - and that sends me into "who knows what might happen" land. Maybe it will blotch, maybe it won't. Should I finish to 120g or 180g? perhaps I should just wipe a dye on to make it basically the right color and then I'll just burry it in toner to make it appear even. I HATE that, and my work is too high quality to be worrying about it. I like taking a job in and knowing how it will progress(in my head). I don't want to have to use toner. I just want beautiful finishing. I'm capable of amazing work but the coloring phase is really killing me right now.

How can I see a problem coming? How do I know BEFORE I take a job, that it will require 'special' treatment. How do I know BEFORE I wipe stain that it will look awful and not uniform?

What woods do you all have a problem with? Do you use spray alcohol dyes? wiping stains? etc?

I'm just trying to gather some words of wisdom from you all - I don't need a one stop solution, just some input so I can gain my bearings again. I'm tired of having to burry work in toner to hide weird results.

Thanks!

[Jerry Thompson]

I always use test pieces first. Charles Neil's blotch control is amazing. I can't remember the exact name of it. Just go to his web site. I have also used thinned hide glue. This is the kind you make yourself. I make it runny and paint it on with a brush. Let it dry for 24r hours and lightly sand it. We used it on a Douglas Fir mantle and even the end grain took the dye as same as the long grain.

[John TenEyck]

If you ever figure out the secret to knowing when something will blotch and having 100% success in dealing with it please let us all know! I just had a disaster on a cherry piece and I knew it was blotch prone. At least that much I can tell by the way the wood looks. How? Just look at the wood with raking light. It's usually easy to see if the grain swirls or rolls so what looks like end grain comes up to the surface. Cherry, maple, alder, pine, poplar, they all blotch. Nearly any wood, really. Some more, some less.

How to deal with it?. It's an ongoing battle for me. Sanding to a much finer grit often helps. Wood sanded to 325 grit blotches less than one to 150. You say you don't like toners, but they have become one of my most effective ways of dealing with blotching. I use a lot of shellac/Transtint dye toner, especially on maple projects. They look fine to me, not second rate in any way as you seemed to imply. I've also had some success spraying on just enough dye to wet the wood, with no extra that can migrate to the blotchy areas. Gel stain over a weak dye and sealer has its place, too. For straight stains Sherwin Williams BAC Wiping Stains seem to show the least tendency to blotch of any that I have tried. Not 100% success, but much less of a problem than any other I've used.

In the end, most cases are different. With a new piece at least you can play with scrap until you figure out a solution - although my recent cherry piece proved to be an exception to that rule. The real problem comes when you are refinishing something and have no hidden areas to play with. For those I will often turn to toners as I've had the fewest problems when using them.

I'm all ears if someone has a universal solution.

John

[Jim Becker]

And then there is the "one man's 'blotch problem' is another man's beautiful figure" aspect of this...very subjective!

FYI, I use water soluble dyes for coloring when I need to color. In the past, I pretty much wiped it on, but have changed to spraying it lately, especially on larger projects, for more even results. I seal that with de-waxed shellac and move on to my top coat which is generally a sprayed water borne finish.

[Mike Dowell]

@Jerry - I never have test pieces of the same exact wood - for example, if I'm refinishing a desk, the desk is all I have.
@John - I've used that Charles Neil stuff. It worked pretty decent but I've gotten to a point where if it isn't a walnut or mahogany piece, I feel like I have to blotch treat it just as a precaution. To me, there are few worse feelings than stripping a piece of furniture, then sanding it all down, all to wipe on a stain and have it blotch up. Normally, I strip, sand, stain, spray, deliver. But when something goes wrong, then I've got to add all sort of other junk like toning; steps I didn't really have time to take.
@Jim - Don't the water dyes blotch up too? The guy I talked to at Mohawk almost exclusively sprays their acetone based dyes. He said 99% of jobs he does start with a sprayed dye, then seal coat, then a glaze, then topcoats. He was explaining that by not flooding the piece with the dye -i.e. spraying very light coats- that he can avoid the saturation that leads to blotching at the expense of a little more time, spraying many coats until color is achieved. Now, that's not to say that acetone dye won't blotch too. He was saying that flooding is what leads into the blotch, which is why any wiping stain doesn't give you the control you need. Do you find any of this to ring true with the use of water dyes?

[Sam Murdoch]

I recently used the Lockwood water soluble dyes on this big leaf maple project - http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?226784-Raised-panels-are-traditional-and-live-edges-are-edgy NO blotching at all. As I first started to apply I realized that I was being too timid and the dye was getting ahead of me - in other words heading to blotchy zone. Then the little voice in my head yelled at me FLOOD FLOOD. Oh yeah - the advice for this product was to FLOOD it on not wipe it on - and so I flooded. No problems with blotchy at all.

Now would I have had the same results on another piece of wood? I can't say, but I'm pretty sure that for hand applied this particular product needs to go on liberally. I had sanded to 220 before I started the dye process. I lightly sanded after the 1st dye - slight wood raise but also intended to add another color to take the color more to brown. That may have added to my success.

To your question about what to do when no sample wood is available - you can always do the underside of a piece as the trial area. Perhaps in this case as you were refinishing a top you might not have had more than the knee space area to test and you would have needed to flip the desk but maybe that would have been an option.

As for Minwax stains :eek: OMG I can't think of a worse product in my experience. I have never successfully used that product to stain anything that didn't look like crap afterwards. Sorry Minwax - I ain't lyin'. I have had wonderful results with Behlens or MLCampbell stains - either hand applied or sprayed. Yes there are always some woods that will blotch - cherry and pine come to mind - and in those cases a pretreatment is always wise but some products are simply better.

[Leo Passant]

And then there is the "one man's 'blotch problem' is another man's beautiful figure" aspect of this...very subjective!

Presactly! Blotch Control – AKA Character Killer.

It amuses me when I hear woodworkers ranting on about the natural beauty of wood… and who then try and alter its natural state.

Wood is no substitute for Wilsonart, Formica, Pionite, Nevamar, etc. Seemingly.

[Chris Padilla]

I've had wonderful success spraying NGR Dyes on maple and let me tell you, maple blotches...sample tests blotched every time. Spraying solved it and the dye laid down nice and uniform.

[Mike Dowell]

You know, the only thing I've noticed about spraying dyes, is having trouble getting into 90 degree corners. I can't for the life of me figure out how to do that! Suggestions?

[Mike Tagge]

306308My experience with minwax has not been good. I've had lots of problems with blotching. If I am to use a oil based stain, I will lean towards a wiping stain. It is thicker and has stuff in it that hold it relatively close to the surface versus getting absorbed. I also use water or alcohol based dyes a lot too. If it is prone to blotching, you can tell with the pre-wetting with water to raise the grain. If that is the case, sand a little finer, the finer dust helps pack the pores a bit. You can also preseal with a shellac or sanding sealer and go with a wiping or gel stain glaze.
I had a cheap breadboard countertop that was going to blotch like crazy. I used a dye first after pre-raising the grain, sanding to 320. Right before I applied the dye, I did a quick prewetting with plain water and then followed with the dye. The more absorptive wood took in the water and then the dye went on very evenly. I followed with a quick sealing with shellac and then applied old masters gel stain. I finished with a poly topcoat.

[Mike Dowell]

What about spraying in corners? What's your technique?

[Stan Calow]

I am no expert, but what I know as blotch is in the attached photo: areas of uneven color absorption unrelated to grain or figure in the wood. The photo is a piece of cherry, with a coat of walnut-colored danish oil, and a couple of coats of shellac. No character, just ugly. 306453
PS I saw a new upper-end home a couple of years ago where the kitchen cabinets had intentional blotching all over them (or faked), and were being touted as "rustic cherry".

[Lee Reep]

I seldom use stains. I tend to makes things with nicely figured domestics or colorful exotics, and apply a clear finish. Last year my daughter wanted a dog bowl stand. And she wanted it stained dark. I used some hardwood-veneered plywood (I was not sure if it was maple or cherry, but it matched some cherry trim I had). I used General Finishes Java Gel Stain. Really nice and uniform finish, and really easy to apply. Here is a picture.

306457

[John TenEyck]

What about spraying in corners? What's your technique?

I try to avoid 3 way corners whenever possible. I leave the back off of the cabinet, or the bottom out of the drawer, when spraying. A two way corner isn't too hard to deal with, just aim the gun at each face separately rotating the gun a few degrees towards the corner at each end. Spraying clear coat isn't hard at all; if you get a little too much on it doesn't matter as long as it doesn't run. Spraying dye, however, is a lot more difficult when dealing with corners. Any non-uniformity is pretty obvious. My approach is to spray multiple coats to build the color and to spray each coat at 90 deg to the prior if at all possible. Same thing when I spray dye on raised panel doors; spray one coat side to side, the next top to bottom.

John

[George Bokros]

I always use test pieces first. Charles Neil's blotch control is amazing. I can't remember the exact name of it. Just go to his web site.

It is called Blotch Control. I worked well for me with water base TransTint dye.

[Mike Dowell]

I try to avoid 3 way corners whenever possible. I leave the back off of the cabinet, or the bottom out of the drawer, when spraying. A two way corner isn't too hard to deal with, just aim the gun at each face separately rotating the gun a few degrees towards the corner at each end. Spraying clear coat isn't hard at all; if you get a little too much on it doesn't matter as long as it doesn't run. Spraying dye, however, is a lot more difficult when dealing with corners. Any non-uniformity is pretty obvious. My approach is to spray multiple coats to build the color and to spray each coat at 90 deg to the prior if at all possible. Same thing when I spray dye on raised panel doors; spray one coat side to side, the next top to bottom.

John


Yeah, problem is, corners you can't avoid. I recently did a fireplace mantle. That's an example of inside corners all over the place.

[Mike Dowell]

I am no expert, but what I know as blotch is in the attached photo: areas of uneven color absorption unrelated to grain or figure in the wood. The photo is a piece of cherry, with a coat of walnut-colored danish oil, and a couple of coats of shellac. No character, just ugly. 306453
PS I saw a new upper-end home a couple of years ago where the kitchen cabinets had intentional blotching all over them (or faked), and were being touted as "rustic cherry".

yep - to me, that's gross. I've done it many times.

I've used the Charles Neil product, and it does work pretty well. However, it raises the grain. So does water based dye. Do most folks use these water based dyes? It seems like a pain in the you-know-what to use water on wood, raise the grain, sand it back, etc, etc... Are any of you in semi-production environments where you don't have time for all of that fuss? I'm a one man show and my income depends on jobs completed. Therefore, I need to use a system that allows me to skip as many steps as possible and avoid as many problems as I can.

I *thought* I had it covered when I discovered spraying NGR dyes but it appears I don't. That was the main purpose of my post about this. When the guy at Mohawk turned me on to spraying these dyes, I was like, "EUREKA!!!!!". Problem solved right? You can spray faster than you can wipe, it's cleaner, it's a dye and not pigment stain so the clarity is better, if you spray lightly you won't blotch, it dries in minutes and is ready for top coats, you can mix and match to any color you need, it cleans up with water - What else could you possibly want? My experience has been to the contrary. I guess when it comes right down to it, I'm looking for a "go to" routine that seldom fails me. That routine might not exist though, and that's ok too.

[Mike Dowell]

I seldom use stains. I tend to makes things with nicely figured domestics or colorful exotics, and apply a clear finish. Last year my daughter wanted a dog bowl stand. And she wanted it stained dark. I used some hardwood-veneered plywood (I was not sure if it was maple or cherry, but it matched some cherry trim I had). I used General Finishes Java Gel Stain. Really nice and uniform finish, and really easy to apply. Here is a picture.

306457

that turned out beautifully.

[John TenEyck]

Yeah, problem is, corners you can't avoid. I recently did a fireplace mantle. That's an example of inside corners all over the place.

For those the best I can do is turn the pressure and flow way down, narrow the fan, and make sure the gun is pointed in such a way that the air has a way to escape as best as possible. Get the corners done, then go back to more normal settings to do the rest, blending back into what I did in the corners.

John

[Mike Dowell]

gotcha. Thanks for this tidbit. I'll give it a shot next time I'm loaded up.