This felt a lot safer on the SawStop

[J.R. Rutter]

A friend asked me to make him some teak vent covers for his boat. I would think twice about plunging onto a standard saw to make stopped slots, but it didn't feel TOO sketchy on the SawStop. Of course, you still think about kickback, but this particular blade is not very aggressive.

They turned out nicely. The hardest part was getting the spacing increments right to get 1/4" slots. Just thought i would share here:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mIbDcULs9kI/VMnI_XBYwYI/AAAAAAAAG4Q/xvdguQlWk64/s1152/IMG_2947.JPG

[jack duren]

Glad everything came out ok. Personally I would have used a router....

[Mark Carlson]

If I understand you correctly. Yikes!

[Ken Frohnert]

Those type of cuts scare me. Saw Stop or not.

[Larry Frank]

Nicely done...that is one I would not have attempted. However, you have set it up well.

[Sam Murdoch]

Yikes :eek:. Nicely done but I surely would not have attempted that - 8 times and then there were other covers to make?

SawStop would not have saved your head if you had set the piece in a bit crooked or otherwise lost your grip on that oily teak.
PLEASE KIDS - do not try this at home!

I don't know if your post is a gloat - a sigh of relief - or a cry for help :D. Glad you and they came out good.

[Jeffrey Martel]

I think I probably would have just ripped a wider piece a bunch of times, cut out the middle, and glued it back together. If you use a think kerf on the bandsaw you would still get a pretty good grain match. I don't think I'd even attempt that on a router table.

[Roy Turbett]

Tommy MacDonald made a similar stopped cut on an episode of "Rough Cut". But his was a non-through cut for a dado and he clamped the front stop to the table top rather than the fence.

[Chris Parks]

I don't see too much of a problem doing it but I also can't see why a SS makes any difference in safety either.

[Phil Thien]

I wouldn't hesitate to do it w/ a SS. Although, I'd probably use a 1/4" box joint blade setup so I didn't have to dink-around w/ the fence too much.

I wouldn't try it on a non-SS.

[J.R. Rutter]

I almost titled it "anyone else do stupid stuff like this?" I did stand at the left end of the saw to do these. So the main danger would be a hand following a piece getting thrown. The Tiger rip fence makes it very fast to get consistent spacing. It is rare that I do anything using a non-dedicated machine setup, or work on anything besides a cabinet door for that matter.

[John Coloccia]

I probably would have lifted the blade into the piece, as opposed to lowering the piece onto the blade, which is what I assume you did. Much less stressful that way, IMHO. :)

[J.R. Rutter]

I thought about raising and lowering, but I wanted even ends with minimal cleanup. That and I had to remove the handle on the wheel to fit the old style Tiger fence assembly. 😉

[Tom M King]

The only person I personally know that ever got hurt by a tablesaw was doing something very similar. The first cut or three went fine, but at some point some stress in the wood released causing the wood to squeeze the blade, and the results were rather violent. At that point, he had probably 40 years using a table saw as a professional cabinet maker. I've never even considered doing a plunge cut on a tablesaw since then. I would have used a router too.

[Jesse Busenitz]

Plunge cutting can be very useful and done correctly is not that dangerous..... that being said I only use it as a last option, and I definitely would recommend it to someone who hasn't had a lot of experience.

[jack duren]

Up/down all around doesn't matter. NOT the bast way to handle this project. Kickbacks seem to be the common problem worried about around here. Here's the result of a kickback in 1985. As said "Mess with the bull,you get the horns".

[Brian Henderson]

Seriously, if it feels at all dangerous to do, don't do it. Find another way. That is not a cut to be attempted on any table saw, ever.

[Frederick Skelly]

Those type of cuts scare me. Saw Stop or not.

+1. With all due respect, that doesnt look safe enough as-is. Unless you used a GrrrripR or equivalent to hold it down during the pass, Id worry about the possibility of it getting airborne. Edit: And PLUNGE CUTTING that grill? Not for me, Im afraid.

Glad you got it done safely.
Fred

[Peter Quinn]

I've done lots of glass rabbits that are stopped cuts for cope and stick doors where the top gets glass and the bottom gets a panel, but the pieces are usually longer. It sure gives you pause when you drop a piece of hardwood on a whirling razor and proceed to cut knowing you will be raising it again with your hands even closer to the blade shortly. This is one of those things that gets the job done but just isn't for every one. You have to have a very steady hand, nerves of steel, and be quite daft. JR, those pieces look hairy. i see that dreadful pile of oily teak dust there, brings back lots of bad memories. We did a bunch of very similar grates in mahogany a few years back using an over arm pin router, never felt scary, though those will take a finger too. I also did a few one off's on a bridgeport, and that takes it, never felt scary, DRO makes it very accurate. Must be a good friend!

[Bill Orbine]

I thought about raising and lowering, but I wanted even ends with minimal cleanup. That and I had to remove the handle on the wheel to fit the old style Tiger fence assembly. 

Sorry J.R......I'll have to agree with Coloccia. Raise and lower the blade is my preferred method. I count the number of turn when raising blade and come to a mark I place on the saw. As for spacing the grooves, the Wixey digital measure makes it so much easier. I've made speaker grills similar to yours. I do this on my UniSaw.

Good job on your speaker grill.:)

[Charles Li]

I think we can all at least agree the vent looks good :)

[Curtis Myers]

Glad everything came out ok. Personally I would have used a router....

+1 on using a router

[Art Mann]

What irony! The Sawstop gave the OP a false sense of safety which led him to perform a very dangerous operation he would not normally have attempted. In this case, Sawstop ownership made working more dangerous.

[J.R. Rutter]

Well, I'm not advocating doing this sort of cut, but I knew it would spark some discussion! Be safe. If it doesn't feel right to you, don't do it.

I wouldn't have done it if I didn't feel like the parts were stable, the cut controlled with stops, the active area blown clean after each cut, nothing in the likely path of an ejected part, and confidence in the blade brake.

[John Coloccia]

I think it looks a lot scarier than it really is.

[Mike Cutler]

I think it looks a lot scarier than it really is.

I agree.
When I was 13, I'm 55 now, we did essentially the same thing in wood shop class to make "Egg Crate" speaker cabinet grills. The teacher made a sled that effectively had a ZCI top and bottom, and we used a 3 wing moulding head mounted to the table saw. It took a lot of time, Lots of passes, but if a bunch of 13-14 year olds could do it safely in 1972. I'm sure JR can do it safely today.
( A router in 1973 was a bit much for a 13 year old to handle. ;))

Nice work JR.

[Lee Schierer]

Wow, that is really dangerous, whether you are a novice or a professional this technique exposes you to far more danger than is necessary to get the job done. . I speak from personal experience here. It took 21 stitches to fix the damage and I was fortunate not to lose any function in my finger. Your fingers were about 1-1/2 inches away from a spinning blade. If you want to make that type of cut, It is FAR safer to lower the blade, counting the number of turns to get the blade below the table. Place the wood on the table, start the saw and raise the blade into the wood while holding it in place with a push block. Make the length of your cut. Turn the saw off, lower the blade and repeat the process for the next cut.

Lowering a piece of wood onto a moving blade is risky. Any irregularity in the wood grain or slight misalignment of the piece can result in a violent kick back. Since you are holding the wood against the stop block you are applying force that should the wood suddenly move out of the way. Guess where your fingers go. For your sake, please don't do this again. Consider yourself lucky for getting it done the first time without mishap.

[James Nugnes]

I am assuming we all consider unexpected stress elements or conversely voids in wood as the biggest unknowns that can bite us when performing cuts? I am not discounting known issues that can bite us.

[Larry Frank]

While I would not do that on my Sawstop, the OP is a very experienced woodworker and runs a woodworking business. I assume that he has done this before. What is OK for others may not be good for me.

I think that the important thing mentioned several times is that if you do not feel safe or just have a uneasy feeling do not do it and find another way.

[jack duren]

While I would not do that on my Sawstop, the OP is a very experienced woodworker and runs a woodworking business. I assume that he has done this before. What is OK for others may not be good for me.

I think that the important thing mentioned several times is that if you do not feel safe or just have a uneasy feeling do not do it and find another way.

Its not saying that one isn't qualified, but that there was a safer way to get the same results.....

[keith micinski]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw? What if the router tilted a little which they are prone to do when working on small pieces? What if a meteor fell out of the sky and hit his shop while he was trying that plunge cut? I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong. "Slippery oily teak" was actually used as an example. Who in the heck has ever picked a piece of teak up, fumbled it around, dropped it and said "damn that oily teak, it's everywhere, you can't even hold that darn thing" I would have a hard time enjoying woodworking if that was what consumed every part of a project. Working safely is great but eliminating all safety hazards with a power tool is not possible. Recognizing them and using common sense to get a job done is. Nice job on getting that grill made, looks real good and I'm sure the person you made them for was real happy with how they turned out.

[jack duren]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw? What if the router tilted a little which they are prone to do when working on small pieces? What if a meteor fell out of the sky and hit his shop while he was trying that plunge cut? I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong.

Been there, already done that. Picture better explains it.

[Roy Turbett]

JR -

The one thing that strikes me with what I think is an otherwise good setup is the height of the blade. It seems that a plunge cut with the blade that high would increase the likelyhood of a kickback which the Sawstop wouldn't help. If the blade is set to just penetrate the top, the arc on the bottom would be a little longer but still on the backside of the grill. If both sides are visible, you could cut the piece in two passes with the blade slightly lower than the thickness of the wood by flipping it over and cleaning the ends by hand.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I think it looks a lot scarier than it really is.

Yep. I've done if a couple times before, not really a big deal.

In this case, I would do what you suggested, adding a couple details:
> Draw a witness line across the piece at the end toward the front of the saw - this is the target "cut-tio" line
> Align/position so that the piece starts closest to the front of the saw, justified against that front block
> Raise the blade until it touches the witness line
> push fwd until you hit the back stop block
> Hit the Off switch with your thigh, never let go of the piece.d
> One more safety bit: MOdify/add to the pair of stop blocks. YOu want a horizontal piece running front-to back - a "ceiling stop" if you will - the piece cannot lift up off the table high enough to clear the stop blocks.

[Brian Holcombe]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw? What if the router tilted a little which they are prone to do when working on small pieces? What if a meteor fell out of the sky and hit his shop while he was trying that plunge cut? I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong. "Slippery oily teak" was actually used as an example. Who in the heck has ever picked a piece of teak up, fumbled it around, dropped it and said "damn that oily teak, it's everywhere, you can't even hold that darn thing" I would have a hard time enjoying woodworking if that was what consumed every part of a project. Working safely is great but eliminating all safety hazards with a power tool is not possible. Recognizing them and using common sense to get a job done is. Nice job on getting that grill made, looks real good and I'm sure the person you made them for was real happy with how they turned out.

IMO there is a safe way to perform every task needed in woodworking.

One of my friends was injured doing a similar procedure to the one mentioned. Not surprisingly, when he went back to it after not being able to grip with one hand for over a year, and he found a safer way....

I'll propose that a fabricated grill, while more time consuming to produce, will provide a better result and will stay flat over the years. I do not expect that a grill made in the above posted manner will stay flat over time. A fabricated grill could be produced using half laps, would have a cleaner result since the area between the slats could be worked flat, and could be installed into a tighter fit, since the outside edge of the frame would be the only part that would need to consider seasonal movement.

[Ethan Melad]

I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong.

I agree completely with you, Keith.

[Mark Carlson]

IMO plunge and tablesaw should never be used in the same sentence. If you know better go for it. I usually bite my tongue when stuff like this is suggested, but I wouldn't want someone new to woodworking thinking this was a good idea.

[Sam Murdoch]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw? What if the router tilted a little which they are prone to do when working on small pieces? What if a meteor fell out of the sky and hit his shop while he was trying that plunge cut? I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong. "Slippery oily teak" was actually used as an example. Who in the heck has ever picked a piece of teak up, fumbled it around, dropped it and said "damn that oily teak, it's everywhere, you can't even hold that darn thing" I would have a hard time enjoying woodworking if that was what consumed every part of a project. Working safely is great but eliminating all safety hazards with a power tool is not possible. Recognizing them and using common sense to get a job done is. Nice job on getting that grill made, looks real good and I'm sure the person you made them for was real happy with how they turned out.

This is a forum of woodworkers of all levels of experience. I think those of us who have been at it a long time have a responsibility - when taking the time to post here - to not be casual about undertaking operations that are not standard and that are particularly dangerous. I think your comment (in blue) Keith is a bit glib. One should not be breaking the rules unless one knows the rules and that applies here very well.

I am the one who wrote of oily teak - NO its is not oily as an oil slick but it and all the dust laying about that table saw surface can certainly be more slippery than other woods. Did that add an extra level of danger to the operation? OK maybe I am guilty of hyperbole in this case. I fully agree with your last sentences (in purple). But I for one do try to consider and account for all aspects of potential hazards when setting up for an woodworking operation and consider that time well spent - not neurotic or diminishing of the fun in any way. The subject of this thread is a table saw operation which ONLY AN EXPERT WOODWORKER should attempt and then even he/she should consider other and safer ways of achieving the same end - a few of which have been suggested in the posts that followed.

[Lee Schierer]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw?

The big difference is that with a router you have both hands on the thing with the whirling blade and no where near the blade if something goes wrong, not on the piece being cut. The likely hood of losing a finger when plunge cutting with a router is far far less than lowering a piece of wood by hand onto a moving table saw blade. Whether you are a professional with 40 years of experience or a novice, lowering a piece of material onto a moving saw blade is dangerous and is asking for trouble. There are several safer ways to accomplish the same cut that are much less hazardous.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard... Working safely is great but eliminating all safety hazards with a power tool is not possible. Recognizing them and using common sense to get a job done is.

Personally, I really value the emphasis on safe working at SMC. I think we "bring ourselves to do woodworking" because we try to avoid hazardous situations if at all possible - and share that to keep our mutual situational awareness a bit higher. I recently invested $200 in a Shark Guard after reading a lot about TS safety here - for a saw that never had a guard in the 15 years since I bought it. And just today I spent the afternoon making some new push sticks to keep my hands further from the blade - again, based on input received here. (Not everyone has a sawstop just yet.)

The OP can do whatever he wants with the input we provided, just like all of us do. If he feels safe doing the work, Im good with that. We're all big boys and girls. I think folks were trying to help.

Personally, I hope the community will continue to nudge me in the direction of being more aware of my safety.

Fred

[Don Quan]

I dropped a piece of phenolic over a router bit to make the slot to accommodate the riving knife in a table saw ZCI. The set up was very similar to the table saw set up in the OPs post. To keep my hands away from the router bit, I used a Gripprr, and essentially captured the phenolic piece between the router fence, the front stop and the table surface. Still made me anxious though. I would be scared witless to do multiple cuts on a table saw as pictured.

Stepping away from the machine tools most of us have in the shop, the work piece is a perfect fit for a CNC machine. Safe, repeatable and hands free!

[Tony Joyce]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw? What if the router tilted a little which they are prone to do when working on small pieces? What if a meteor fell out of the sky and hit his shop while he was trying that plunge cut? I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong. "Slippery oily teak" was actually used as an example. Who in the heck has ever picked a piece of teak up, fumbled it around, dropped it and said "damn that oily teak, it's everywhere, you can't even hold that darn thing" I would have a hard time enjoying woodworking if that was what consumed every part of a project. Working safely is great but eliminating all safety hazards with a power tool is not possible. Recognizing them and using common sense to get a job done is. Nice job on getting that grill made, looks real good and I'm sure the person you made them for was real happy with how they turned out.

+1 Well put.

305759

[Keith Weber]

I, personally, wouldn't attempt that with or without a SawStop. Too high a risk of a kickback. If it kicks back, your hand could get knocked into the blade. So, I guess we could ask ourselves... Would I be comfortable taking my hand and quickly and forcefully swatting a fully-raised, spinning blade on a SawStop? For me, the answer is an emphatic "No Freaking Way!" To anyone who thinks they'd be comfortable doing this, PLEASE make a video so I can see that. I'll even pay for the new SawStop cartridge and blade. On second thought, there might be someone out there dumb enough to try this, so it'd probably be best to retract that offer so as not to be liable.

[John Coloccia]

In this case, it seems as though a kickback pushes his hand even further away from the blade if he's standing on the left side as I assume he is. If you're positioned properly, yes you're risking a kickback, but it's hard to figure out where the real danger is, despite how scary and dangerous it actually looks.

[Brian W Smith]

Am VERY reluctant to post on matters like this because of splitting hairs WRT....what one guy considers "safe" another can be totally shocked.Knowing the OP to be a professional,I'd give him a thumbs up for.....#1,figure he did an assessment...#2 gives sort of an inside look at SS technology,in practical terms...#3 had the "vision" to even post.All good in my pea brain.

But now for some esoteric meanderings;Do you-all know what a "safe edge file" is?The "safe" here isn't about poking your eye out with a handtool while running across the shop floor,haha.No,it's "safe" because the edges don't have teeth.....you can file into a 90* corner and only do work on the surface that needs it.So you sort of need to stop thinking that safety is limited to your digits(as in,personal safety).Let's say the OP had his grill screwed or glued to a long stick,providing all the personal safety in the world.....you have to ask yourself,"Is this a safe cut" for the work pce?

Once you're under insurance/OSHA scrutiny and we have ALL the guards,ALL the time...you'll start to see what I'm talking about.Is this cut the safest,for the part/s?It is in this way that I think the OP's methodology wouldn't have occurred in our shop.It isn't the safest way for the part......sorry,come up with something else.Have one part,"jump the jig" and see where all that time saved taking an easy approach went?

I'll leave the HVAC side of this somewhat alone,haha.......there are issues with wooden grills that are out of the scope here.

[Bill Sutherland]

I'm going to be doing some similar projects and will be using the Incra Positioner/Fence mounted to my SS to do the spacing. Hopefully it will be as simple as their videos contend!!

[Pat Barry]

I would have been shaking in my workboots thinking about trying that kind of set of cuts even on my low power tablesaw. IMO there has to be a better way to get that job done.

[Tom Hammond]

For something like a grill that is not going to get regular direct attention, I'd have just done a glue-up. You're not going to see any grain inconsistency with something like this.

[J.R. Rutter]

Good discussion.

With regards to general shop safety and OSHA - I would never let an employee do something like this!

[Kent A Bathurst]

2 things:

1. If you are not comfortable doing something, then do something else instead.

2. I [and I betcha everyone else here] can very easily come up with a fixture/holding method that would make this project a succession of individual cuts that are virtually identical to how I cut a new ZCI for a TS blade, with the target piece immobilized L-to-R, F-to-B, and vertically. For those of you in the "don't do this" camp, I gotta ask - a legit question, not being snarky - how in the world do you make the cut in a new ZCI ??

[Prashun Patel]

JR, can you elaborate on this technique? The fact that YOU did this makes me question my instinct that there is a high danger of kickback here (with or without a Sawstop).

I'd like to understand the mechanics better here. I have cut 'speed tenons' and coves on the tablesaw, and I feel comfortable with certain non-traditional operations as long as I understand where the risks are. A new method for square-ended slots would be nice to have if I can feel safe about it.

[Sam Murdoch]

2 things:

1. If you are not comfortable doing something, then do something else instead.

2. I [and I betcha everyone else here] can very easily come up with a fixture/holding method that would make this project a succession of individual cuts that are virtually identical to how I cut a new ZCI for a TS blade, with the target piece immobilized L-to-R, F-to-B, and vertically. For those of you in the "don't do this" camp, I gotta ask - a legit question, not being snarky - how in the world do you make the cut in a new ZCI ??

1) I completely agree and may I add - never ignore your little voice even for a second.

2) Bring the fence over so that it is above the insert, add a hold down - raise the blade into the insert. My concern with JR's (the OP) technique
is the dropping onto the blade.

I do not take issue with the raise the blade/count the turns technique if there is also a hold down - not just the front and back stop. I have done this many times. At the risk of raising eyes and scorn from the posters on this active thread I also will use the drop onto the blade technique with longer stock (18" or so) such as a door stile or drawer front and for a few cuts - not 8 per board spaced 1/4" apart.

[J.R. Rutter]

JR, can you elaborate on this technique? The fact that YOU did this makes me question my instinct that there is a high danger of kickback here (with or without a Sawstop).

I'd like to understand the mechanics better here. I have cut 'speed tenons' and coves on the tablesaw, and I feel comfortable with certain non-traditional operations as long as I understand where the risks are. A new method for square-ended slots would be nice to have if I can feel safe about it.

There are lots of factors, but one thing that hasn't been discussed is the blade. This blade, like many of Freud's, has very little offset between the teeth sides and the plate. It also has anti-kickback fingers following the rakers that are right at the cutting circle because it has been sharpened a couple of times. I have experienced kickback (in normal ripping situations, with and without a riving knife or splitter) - from blades with lower tooth count and more aggressive overall geometry.

Another is controlling the part so that it stays square to both the table and the fence. You need a pristine fence face to avoid catching the edge, and a wide stop to support the pivot point. I think I mentioned that I cleaned out the shavings after each cut so that the trailing end could start flat on the table and fully contacting the wide stop.

I also pay attention to stance and anchoring my wrists/hands/forearms on the table, fence, stop, etc. so that if the piece were to suddenly go away, my pressure isn't pushing me towards the blade. I teach this to my employees on the jointer - "Imagine the wood can disappear at any time. Where will your hands be when that happens." It is a powerful visual and the push blocks get used.

I like the idea of raising and lowering the blade. My saw isn't set up to do this easily though. I also don't happen to have a router that could do this handheld without dismantling a semi-permanent table setup.

[James Nugnes]

Honestly, the only part of the safety discussion that resonates for me is bringing the workpiece down onto the turning blade vs lifting the blade into the workpiece. I would have done anything I could have done to have avoided lowering the workpiece onto the spinning blade. I would think that dangerous as all get out for anybody...experienced or not.

I should qualify my comment here by saying I would very likely have screwed that up trying to do it the way the OP did it. I would have had no shot other than dumb luck and I am sure his experience level really helped him there. That says as much about my experience level with that particular tool as it says about his. I can tell he is light years ahead of me on that tool. By the same token at least from what I can see, dropping the workpiece onto the spinning blade exposes the operator to more unknown factors than lifting the blade into the workpiece would have. Which is not to say, you would have been entirely safe lifting the blade into the workpiece either. But I just think you would have more control and would have found it easier to get out of the cut without hurting yourself if you were bringing the blade up into the workpiece, lowering it and bringing it up again.

[Pat Barry]

2 things:

1. If you are not comfortable doing something, then do something else instead.

2. I [and I betcha everyone else here] can very easily come up with a fixture/holding method that would make this project a succession of individual cuts that are virtually identical to how I cut a new ZCI for a TS blade, with the target piece immobilized L-to-R, F-to-B, and vertically. For those of you in the "don't do this" camp, I gotta ask - a legit question, not being snarky - how in the world do you make the cut in a new ZCI ??
I put the insert in the hole, place the rip fence over it to hold it down, then raise the blade up and through. Nothing at all like the OP was doing.

[Shawn Crane Davies]

I have no problem with raising the blade above the table fully into sheet goods, then dropping the blade or backing off the cut and shutting the saw off. Dropping any material on to a raised blade seems sketchy to me, especially solid woods. Not all wood is created equally, some will bow outwardly and sometimes into the blade pinching it, a recipe for possible disaster if you don't deal with it right then.

Good discussion about safety vs experience. Someone is comfortable with a certain cut vs someone who is not (find a different way!)

I was a luthier for seven years. We used rough out the shape/profile on the back of the guitar necks (c shape, d shape, v shape, etc.) we used a table saw with two fences parallel to the blade. A jig with a c, d, or v shape on the ends of the jig with the neck blank fasted on it so we could roll the jig free hand to achieve the profile desired. We would move the jig side to side touching both fences and slowly rolling the next pass side to side along the tablesaw blade, raising the blade incrementally after the whole jig was rolled until we got the rough thickness we wanted. Most would shutter at the idea of free handing a jig over the top of a saw blade sideways, I'm comfortable doing it being I've worked in a woodshop for a living since I was 16, and worked after work at the shops on side projects. Going to seminars, learning from frank klausz, frank pollaro, Dan gorden, etc. Taken jobs that I would learn something new. With that I learned to feel what the woods and machines were doing as I cut.

If the OP was comfortable making this cut so be it, we make personal adult decisions. But the statement it felt safer using a sawstop TS is kind of bothersome. It's a false safty net. Like anything else man or machine made, it can fail or not do as advertised, I place no bets or decisions on safty devices.

I come from a skydiving background where safty is of the utmost importance, multiple gear checks prior to take off and minutes before each jump, right down to making sure shoe laces are tied. We use AADs (automatic activation device), an electrical man made device that cuts the closing loop of your reserve parachute and let's the spring push out your reserve if it reads your above a certain speed at 1000 feet above ground level (if you don't pull your main parachute). The firing parameters are low, it takes about 300 feet for your reserve to fully inflate which leaves you with 700 feet or less to find on open place to land (trees, building, power lines are all over). Last chance ditch effort to save youself if you don't pull for whatever reason. I often hear jumpers say they would never jump without an AAD. When I say "if you're not comfortable enough to save yourself without an AAD and assume the risk of this sport, then why do you jump?" Most jumpers are aware people do go in (dent the planet) when AADs don't work as they should. About two years ago an instructor chased his student because he didn't pull, both AADs went off, unfortunalty they landed in a spot that was 500 feet higher than the landing zone. Giving them no altitude for their reserves to inflate. There are too many variables to count or rely on a safty device.

Point being never base a decision safty wise on a man made device that you "think" will save you, know it's there and pretend it's not. Knowledge based on experience how to get out of a bad situation before you proceed is, for me, the best policy. Like anything in life, you can do everything right and still get killed or hurt, safty devices are only a "possible" last chance at making it out unscathed. I know these devices fail. If I'm too low I'm not waiting or hoping my AAD goes off, I'm pulling all my handles and doing what I have to based on the situation to save myself.

If I had to make the cut on the table saw like the OP (others have already posted other options to get to the end product, nice) I would of made a series of passes making kerf cuts below the thickness of the material by raising the blade to relieve any tension within the woods grain structure until I kissed the top of the material a pass it two later. Then raise the blade as high as I needed when I saw the material was staying straight. Wood that hasn't been dried right or acclimated to your specific shop can bow either way, or just wood in general we all know can act up.

To say though that a certain cut (dangerous to "younger" woodworkers with not a lot of experience) felt safer using a safty device might be giving some leeway for someone else to do something that's out of their league because of said safty device. Best be prepared for the worse and know your limits, then you can enjoy the craft a bit more safely. Just because I can jump out of a plane doesn't mean you should, unless you understand the danger, trained properly and depend solely on yourself to make rational decisions to save yourself. Relates to power tools too.

Be safe everyone, and keep learning.

[Jim German]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, but I would do this with a track saw, with the workpiece clamped down. Basically the same effect but everything is clamped down, and your fingers are nowhere near any blade.

[Brian W Smith]

Jim,one advantage to a tracksaw as an aside to this thread.......more to do with fixture design really is;It is a "hold down" in of itself.Like a handheld router would be.

Not commenting on whether it does/dosen't meet other requirements on this particular product.

[Brian Henderson]

2. I [and I betcha everyone else here] can very easily come up with a fixture/holding method that would make this project a succession of individual cuts that are virtually identical to how I cut a new ZCI for a TS blade, with the target piece immobilized L-to-R, F-to-B, and vertically. For those of you in the "don't do this" camp, I gotta ask - a legit question, not being snarky - how in the world do you make the cut in a new ZCI ??

ZCIs require that the plate be held down before the blade is raised into the wood. I use the fence on one side and a strip of wood held down by clamps on the other before I cut a new ZCI slot. There is zero chance of kickback doing it that way.

[Sam Murdoch]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, but I would do this with a track saw, with the workpiece clamped down. Basically the same effect but everything is clamped down, and your fingers are nowhere near any blade.

Yes a T Saw would be excellent but you need enough run to allow a full depth blade cut front to back. Absolute must to have stops at the beginning and the end of saw plate mounted to the guide rail and in a case such as the OP's use it would be good to add a front and back stop (basically a frame work) to register the guide rail itself for the repeated cuts - so - stops on the rails and stops for the rails.

[Peter Quinn]

I work with a guy who free hand copes crowns on a TS (not saw stop) all the time, blade raised full up so its nearly a vertical drop like a key cutter. Some guys look at this and think he's nuts, but its pretty much safe, if you take small bites, no kick back danger, much like a cope master tool except for the template guide, unusual technique thats highly effective on very hard woods. Just saying, like Shawn points out above, lots of ways to use a table saw that are unusual but not necessarily tragic. Its all about understanding stock control and avoiding the pinch points. They used to call it a variety saw for a reason! I have books that show you how to set up the same basic operation JR presented but on a shaper. I've done it with stop rabbits and a 5" cutter head on a shaper, block on each end of a long fence, easy, but you sure had better be fully aware of your stock path, have proper stock control, use a BG test chip limiting head and have the spindle blocked off so your hands don't interact with the spindle as they pass by. First time I did it al the hair was standing up on my neck, then you realize its actually quite simple. No less than Aigner sells a fixture for doing this very thing! They are in the safety business. They can't be crazy too? Just because you don't understand a technique doesn't make it inherently dangerous, but if you don't understand an advanced technique and attempt it anyway missing some of the salient points it could get bad quick. I see other pros at work doing things all the time I would never do, but I don't attack them for the way they work, I do try to understand what they are doing and how I might be comfortable abosrbing some of what they know into my repertoire of tricks.

[Ole Anderson]

If I had to do this I would raise the blade into the wood coming up all the way to the stop, and I would have a solid hold down, possibly using a rabbited piece along the fence and another one on the outboard side of the cut. I am all for jigs.

And every time I hear of someone using push sticks, I cringe as a traditional stick will do nothing to hold the forward portion of the work against the table. I use one of these and either a feather board or another piece of wood to push the work against the fence unless the work allows my fingers to be at least 4 inches from the blade. And I use a SharkGuard whenever possible.

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[Kent A Bathurst]

ZCIs require that the plate be held down before the blade is raised into the wood. I use the fence on one side and a strip of wood held down by clamps on the other before I cut a new ZCI slot. There is zero chance of kickback doing it that way.

Brian, et al:

Yeah - I got the point that the OP was using a different method: Dropping the target onto the blades v raising the blade into/thru the target.

1. Was offering a different approach to achieve the same result.
2. I have use the OP's method a fair number of times - not a frequent occurrence, by any means - and I have zero problem doing it that way. I stop and think about what I am doing more carefully than other TS ops, but I'm fine with it. The obvious reply to this is: "Well, then....maybe you need to stop and think more carefully all the time." Cannot argue that point.

When I do it, I have a stop securely mounted toward front of the TS table, so the target cannot move / kick back as the blade engages. But other than that, I honestly don't see it as a big deal. Which apparently is not in the majority opinion, but I'm good with it.

Next - there was a comment concerning multiple slots only 1/4" apart. I don't have a problem with that either, but I would darn sure be selective on the species, and especially on the grain orientation for those vent covers.

[Chris Padilla]

Good discussion, Folks. I'd like to add my two cents worth if ya don't mind.

My spidey senses would be tingling all over trying a cutting operation like that so it would definitely NOT be in my realm of comfort.

Many pointed out a router but I'd go a step further and say a router TABLE. I have an Incra fence on my router table and it would excel at cutting nice slots like this, evenly spaced. I also have a lifter on my router so as to plunge it only an 1/8" or 1/4" at a time. It would probably take me 3x as long as J.R.'s approach but it would resonate better with me using my router table over a table saw.

[Wayne Jolly]

Some people mentioned doing a glue-up, but there were two words in the OP's post that makes me wonder. TEAK and BOAT. Wood with a high oil content and a boat that has potential temperature and humidity extremes. Possibly Direct exposure to sun and wind during boat storage, maybe cold and wet when operating the boat. Just how reliable would a glue-up be in a case like this?

Wayne

[Peter Kelly]

Some people mentioned doing a glue-up, but there were two words in the OP's post that makes me wonder. TEAK and BOAT. Wood with a high oil content and a boat that has potential temperature and humidity extremes. Possibly Direct exposure to sun and wind during boat storage, maybe cold and wet when operating the boat. Just how reliable would a glue-up be in a case like this?

WayneEither Weldwood Resorcinol or West System Epoxy work fine on teak. Just need to wipe down the surfaces with lacquer thinner before glueing. I'm sure someone will chime in with urethane glue as well, just haven't tried it myself so I can't say.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

No problem. But I'd be wearing one of these:
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[Ole Anderson]

I am not sure I would do a glue up in this case due to the thin wood section, but that method certainly does have merits.

[John Coloccia]

Good discussion, Folks. I'd like to add my two cents worth if ya don't mind.

My spidey senses would be tingling all over trying a cutting operation like that so it would definitely NOT be in my realm of comfort.

Many pointed out a router but I'd go a step further and say a router TABLE. I have an Incra fence on my router table and it would excel at cutting nice slots like this, evenly spaced. I also have a lifter on my router so as to plunge it only an 1/8" or 1/4" at a time. It would probably take me 3x as long as J.R.'s approach but it would resonate better with me using my router table over a table saw.

FWIW, all of the worst kicks and grabs I've had have all been on the router table.

[Brian Kincaid]

Table saw and router table are both the wrong tool for the job. Plunging tracksaw like DeWalt or Festool would have been completely safe with the proper stops and clamps in place. Faster too since you don't need to gingerly raise the blade into the material.

I am glad you didn't get hurt, but this is clearly a case of trying to use the tool you have/like instead of using the safe tool for the job.

-Brian

[Chris Padilla]

FWIW, all of the worst kicks and grabs I've had have all been on the router table.

I'm not sure I've had the same experience. I've had bad grabs on the router table but that was many years ago when I was a bit more of an idiot than I am now. I was make a totally unsafe/dumb cut and after it was ripped out of my hands, I immediately knew why. But cutting 1/8" slots with an 1/8" router bit is really not a big deal and for me, much safer than the table saw. However any tool with fast spinning sharp metal, things can go wrong quickly. :)

[Jamie Buxton]

I plunge up on a tablesaw. A key to staying safe is to make sure the workpiece can't get flung by the blade. To ensure that, I drilled and tapped the saw table, directly in front of the blade.

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I bolt a piece of scrap wood of appropriate length to prevent the workpiece from moving toward me. Here's the holder during a plunge-up cut.

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Simple, inexpensive, and safe.

[Chris Padilla]

But...but...but...you put a hole in your table saw top!!! :eek:

There is also, perhaps, the issue of the shape of the cut the saw blade makes during a plunge up cut. May or may not be an issue.

[Jamie Buxton]

But...but...but...you put a hole in your table saw top!!!

:) Yeah I did. That Unisaw has had so many modifications over the years, one more hole is hard to notice. The saw is on its third fence, and its fourth router table. It has a hinged outfeed table hung off the back. It has a shop-made motor cover, and a home-brew kick-to-stop power switch. It has three different big holes in the base for dust collection -- the results of evolving ducting designs. There's holsters bolted on the base for the rip fence and the miter gauge.

There is also, perhaps, the issue of the shape of the cut the saw blade makes during a plunge up cut. May or may not be an issue.

? I don't understand. Explain more?

[Jeffrey Martel]

If you don't do a glue up lamination, then I think my next choice would be to use a plunge router and an edge guide with a spiral bit. Clamp it down to a sacrificial piece. If you leave it extra long, you can cut all the grooves and then cut it free from the long board. Sure it would take longer, but almost no risk of injury.

[Brian Henderson]

Time is a less limited quantity than fingers. You always have tomorrow, you only have ten fingers. I never get people who think that experience substitutes for safety. The whole point of getting experience is to know what is safe and how to use the machines safely. It's not to take off all of your guards and do crazy stuff.

[Chris Padilla]

There is also, perhaps, the issue of the shape of the cut the saw blade makes during a plunge up cut. May or may not be an issue.

? I don't understand. Explain more?

If you raise the blade up, the edges of the cut are not square...they follow the shape of the saw blade. You have to do more work to square up the edge. A router table plunging up does not leave such a cut. Capishe? :)

[Jamie Buxton]

If you raise the blade up, the edges of the cut are not square...they follow the shape of the saw blade. You have to do more work to square up the edge. A router table plunging up does not leave such a cut. Capishe? :)

Ah, yes, that's true. Generally I'm not upcutting into a workpiece that is going to be a piece of furniture. Usually I'm upcutting into a piece of sheetgoods that is going to become a template. With the tablesaw, I make four cuts to make a rectangular hole. I use that template with a plunge router and a template guide to cut a rectangular hole in the piece of wood that will actually be included the furniture. Often the rectangular hole is a mortise which is inconvenient to cut with other methods. The template guide is a diameter large enough that it doesn't touch the corners of the template hole's corners, so it rides right past the overcutting from the plunge-up operation.

[Kevin Jenness]

A perfect application for the Martin sliding table saw. Set the rip fence, clamp the workpiece fore and aft to the carriage, align with mark on fence, raise blade with right foot, push carriage forward to second mark, lower blade, unclamp, repeat until finished. No drama, no hands near blade, if the blade gets pinched just drop it with the foot pedal. To each his own.

[James Zhu]

A perfect application for the Martin sliding table saw. Set the rip fence, clamp the workpiece fore and aft to the carriage, align with mark on fence, raise blade with right foot, push carriage forward to second mark, lower blade, unclamp, repeat until finished. No drama, no hands near blade, if the blade gets pinched just drop it with the foot pedal. To each his own.

Very very few people could afford Martin slider. Actually there is a better, fast, safe and inexpensive way to do it.

Using Festool MFT, track saw and rip stops ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CyNaVt90Hc ), you can set stops on the guide rail to make the plunge cut.

[Kevin Jenness]

Yes, of course you are right, James. I was trying to make a little joke there, as well as pointing out the inherent safety if used well of sliders in general and the Martin's foot pedal control in particular. Personally, I would use a plunge router for that project. JR Rutter is a highly experienced woodworker and is entitled and qualified to make his own decision on the safety of what he is doing. I look at it and see a potential for kickback which can be somewhat unpredictable and cause injury without flesh contacting the blade, so I feel the perception of relative safety using a Sawstop is somewhat illusory. Everyone has his own way. I just want to be able to count to ten manually at the end of the day.

[Joe Calhoon]

A perfect application for the Martin sliding table saw. Set the rip fence, clamp the workpiece fore and aft to the carriage, align with mark on fence, raise blade with right foot, push carriage forward to second mark, lower blade, unclamp, repeat until finished. No drama, no hands near blade, if the blade gets pinched just drop it with the foot pedal. To each his own.

Glad you said it first Kevin:)
I was thinking the same thing while reading this thread. With the Airtight clamps it would be hands free and fast. I wish Martin still offered the hydro raise and tilt on the newer saws. Actually, the vintage of Martin sliders that have this can be had for less than a new sliding saw.

With the right setup a heavy duty shaper and saw blade would be a safer way to do this than a table saw.

Of course a Festo saw or plunge router would be safer than table saw but slower and more setup. Safety first though. Like JR I have done some setups like this over the years very carefully never expecting employees to do the same thing.
Joe
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[David Kumm]

SCMI made a Hydro as well and they often go for less than 5K used. Everyone with a slider ( saw or shaper ) should consider the Airtights. Dave