PDA

View Full Version : Discussing new equipment problems and manufacturers at SMC......



Ken Fitzgerald
01-31-2015, 3:29 PM
Atop the each of the forums at SMC is an announcement thread titled "Read me first". This thread details certain topics including rant threads. Here's a quote"

Before You Rant Read This December 20th, 2010

"It is the intent of SMC to permit the airing of concerns regarding the suitability of a particular product, or the quality or sufficiency of customer service provided by a vendor in any particular instance provided there is not a breach of contract component involved.

However, these threads often deteriorate into a "piling on" and develop a very negative tone. That doesn't assist other viewers in assessing the overall advisability of whether to buy this particular product, nor to assess the overall customer service provided by that manufacturer/vendor.

In order to be fair to the many vendors that provide woodworking products, the following policies will be in force:
The original poster must have first contacted the manufacturer/vendor and have attempted a solution PRIOR to posting the thread.
The original poster should provide factual details of the problem, and details of efforts that have been made with the manufacturer/vendor to rectify the problem.
Subsequent posts must be limited to suggestions to the original poster to assist in rectifying the problem - not to pile on because you had similar problems.

SMC is a woodworking forum. The intended purpose is to provide a community in which useful information may be shared among the members. Threads that do not achieve that purpose will be locked, or removed if necessary." SawMill Creek is not a Court of Law and we are not in a position to judge a breach of contract case here, therefore SawMill Creek will not become a stage or a courtroom for a legal dispute between two or more parties, it just isn't our mission.

I changed the color of the quote so it would stand out from the rest of this post.

There are reasons behind these rules.

When you read a thread, you can tell which person is spouting an emotional, irrational, often an overreaction to a problem. Emotional rants without any factual supporting data are worthless to any prospective buyer.

Requiring an OP to first contact a company to give them an opportunity to resolve an issue is just common courtesy. No company who manufactures and sells a product is above having a failure or problem in a newly delivered product. While there are those who would suggest that berating a company and it's product got them great satisfaction and relief, I would suggest those are the minority results. Managers don't have the time nor the desire to handle every customer complaint. As both a former manager and field engineer for 34 years for 2 large global corporations I can tell you, my manager gave me a set of operational boundaries that exceeded those detailed in a sales or service contract. When a customer brought an issue to me for resolution, if they approached it in a calm, concerned manner, they often found out the extended boundaries I was given. At times I would go to my manager and the customer found out what his or hers even larger boundaries were. If, however, they were in your face, emotionally ranting, publicly embarrassing in their expression of dissatisfaction, they often found the precise limited boundaries as detailed in the sales or service contract.

So much of what we see concerning tools is subjective. With respect to a specific tool, what may be important to me is of no importance to you. That is fine. A minor defect in a tool that may be extremely frustrating to you, may be a non-issue with me. It's subjective....it's a matter of personal opinion and/or taste.

Keith Outten has had to submit records of specific threads and/posts after being ordered to by a court in at least one case or maybe 2 cases, IIRC. You can be held responsible for what you say online. In fact, a few years ago, a fellow Creeker who is a lawyer posted a link to a published result in a court case where a website was held responsible for allowing untrue misinformation to be posted and remain on a website. The jest of the courts finding was if a site was not moderated, it couldn't be held responsible but if it was moderated it had the responsibility to remove misinformation that could harm a company. The reason I frequent SMC is because of the moderation maintaining a reasonable code of conduct here for members to enjoy. There are other websites out there that are not moderated for those who can't or don't wish to abide the TOSs of SMC as they agreed when they registered.

And of course, lastly, contrary to what some want to believe or accuse, the Moderators get nothing from any manufacturers. We are trying to be fair to consumers and manufacturers/retailers.

Ken Fitzgerald
01-31-2015, 3:42 PM
Addressing your specific question John.

You stated the company resolved your issue. Good.

You also stated in your opinion a salesman continues to provide information that is untrue or a lie. That is a pretty strong statement or charge. If specific, context and details aren't seen and considered by both parties, one can mistakenly believe a lie is being communicated, when in reality something is taken out of context or not all information is being considered.

If you see what you think is an untruth being stated, don't accuse someone of a lie. Ask a very direct question leading towards what you think is the truth. It may take more than one question. If it is the salesperson that is posting here at SMC, direct the question to him/her.

If it is a statement made by a prospective buyer, advise them to ask that specific question of the salesperson. Keep in mind, in this case, the reply that is communicated back to you is 2nd hand information. It's very easy for someone to repeat something without it being verbatim and the entire meaning becomes twisted as a result.

While I worked in customer service for 34 years, I can tell you I know of several salesmen whose employment was terminated when they were caught telling lies to either customers, or company officials. Salesmen don't sell enough product to remain employed once their integrity becomes questioned. Companies that don't sell products and make profits, don't remain in business.

Ken Fitzgerald
01-31-2015, 4:49 PM
Sorry for the delay! I just got home from a 2 week absence. The doorbell rang and a neighbor wanted some turning done a project he's finishing for his FIL.

John Huds0n
01-31-2015, 9:39 PM
For those of you who are reading this, I think a little background is in order. (I apologize in advance for the length of this post - but this issue is very important to me)

Basically, it appears that a number of posts that contain negative opinions about certain companies are being deleted from Saw Mill Creek. I asked one of the SMC moderators about it and was told (short version) "This place runs on advertising" "We do have to protect those folks who are paying to a certain degree"

What started all of this is I read a post where someone was asking for help buying a bandsaw and had basically narrowed it down to either one from "Company X" or one from "Company Y".

The OP ended up purchasing the saw from "Company Y" but there were some problems with it - he ended up with a demo unit by mistake and their was some badly fitting parts, rust, etc, etc. Well a Sales Person for "Company X" responded and posted something along the lines of - I wish you would have purchased it from me, I would never had let a saw with those problems get by me....

I did in fact respond to the Sales Person's post and it started with "Don't go there" and I went on to remind the sales person about some of the problems that I had experienced with my machine that I purchased from HIM. (That post and several others were also deleted and I do not remember exactly what I wrote)

I think a little background is in order at this point...

About 15 months ago, I wanted to get back into woodworking and I wanted to update my 30 year old Delta machinery. I was interested in a particular type of machine and originally intended to purchase it from "Company Y" but primarily because of what I had read on this forum, I decided to buy the machine from "Company X" instead. (Keep in mind, I never saw either of the machines in person, so I relied heavily on what I read and what I saw on the internet) All communications were done by email - (I am hearing impaired and dislike using the phone) and also because after 26 years in law enforcement, I have come to realise the importance of having a 'written record', especially when it comes to financial transactions.

The machine was delivered within a couple of weeks of my order, but I discovered a major problem - one of the components was rusted in place with signs of visible galling/damage to the adjacent metal. I sent pictures of the problem to my Salesman and was basically told that it was cosmetic damage and that I should try to "break it loose". I couldn't even get it to budge - it was frozen solid and it sounded like any repairs that needed to be done - I would have to be the one to do them.

I was also upset because I had specifically asked about an option that I had read about on the "Company X's" website that was very important to me - important enough to sway my decision on purchasing this machine instead of the one from "Company Y". I asked about the option and was told on two separate occasions that it was included - in fact it was now standard. When I received the written quote to purchase the machine, the option was not listed and again asked about it. I was told "You will receive all those items we discussed; just have to trust me on that." Well, guess what? - My machine did not have the option! The sales persons response when I brought it to his attention - "It's not available, or at least not for 2012+. I know that I said it was and that appears to be incorrect...I apologize" (15 months later - "Company X's" website still lists this option as being available for this machine)

I eventually got the problem resolved by contacting the president of the company, but the whole situation was very trying to me.

Then yesterday I read a post where someone had purchased a brand new machine and was upset with the amount of rust on it. I responded, and asked if it it was from "Company X" because I had a very similar incident and the only way I got it resolved was by contacting the president of the company. I went on to suggest to document everything with photo's and then start making calls and writing emails. (Again, I don't remember verbatim what I wrote and again, my post was later deleted without any type of warning or notice)

Later in that thread, after I realized that my posts were being deleted, I posted this message:



Ken - I have a question for YOU

When I read a post on SMC where someone is asking for opinions regarding a possible purchase of a machine they are interested in, how can I convey my negative experience about said machine/company/sales person in the appropriate rational manner and not have my comments or my post deleted? The problem was in fact resolved - but I see the salesman still making what I would call 'less than truthfull' statements and I believe he needs to be called out on it.

ps - they are not paid advertisers on this forum as far as I know


Note I had typed "I see the salesman still making what I would call 'less than truthfull' statements and I believe he needs to be called out on it."

And here we are. Even though my problem was eventually resolved - I still think there should be a way that I can convey the problems that I had experienced with Company X to any potential new buyers, but again, at this point - it appears that all such posts get deleted. It would be like eBay or Amazon deleting any negative reviews - I just don't think it is right

Ken Fitzgerald
01-31-2015, 10:09 PM
John,

Read the blue highlighted area in my previous message. A dissatisfied customer can, in fact, make a negative post or thread within the guidelines listed. We aren't going license a shark-like, pile-on filled, feeding frenzy at SMC. Those type of threads are of no value to a prospective buyer. You can find that atmosphere elsewhere on the web.

The company resolved your problem. You shouldn't have an issue with the company.

You claim you were told a lie by the salesman. Would you care to speculate what the salesman's take on this situation would be?

Would you think it was right if the salesman was allowed to accuse you of being less than truthful, irrational, etc.?

There are no winners in those type of public conflicts.

It would be just as unfair to allow unproven accusations to be charged against the salesman.

Yes, John, one can give a fair review, even a negative review at SMC. You just don't have a license to repeatedly attack a company or people every time they are mentioned.

Since it's obvious you don't want to accept my explanation of the limitations or how to work within their confines, I will close this thread.