Fiber Laser question.

[Neville Stewart]

So this is probably a dumb question, I see what a Fiber laser can do with metals but can it engrave non metals as fast as a CO2 laser would? Reason being, I'd like to get more into engraving and lean towards metals so a fiber seems like a wise choice but I'd like the ability to not turn work away if I could. Would that mean Id need one of each in a nice world :) where I could afford two.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Nope, the wavelength only works on some materials, it's not a case of speed it's a case of whether the beam will be absorbed by the material that decides if it will work.

[Neville Stewart]

As always, thank you Dave. Two it is then : )

[Gary Hair]

A fiber certainly shines on marking/engraving metal but it can also mark/engrave lots of other materials as well! I have both and there isn't much I can't mark and there are things that one does better than the other. For the most part, anything that both machines will mark, the fiber will mark faster and better. Two examples - anodized aluminum and leather. Both mark very well with the co2 and speeds are very acceptable. The fiber marks both materials better and several times faster. One of my best investments was buying the fiber last year, I wish I would have done it sooner! Dave makes it sound like the fiber will only mark metal, but that couldn't be farther from reality! I don't have a link, but a quick google search should yield a list of materials that you can mark with a fiber. Be aware that there is a big difference between galvo and gantry fiber lasers - gantry can't do near as much or as well as a galvo.

[Neville Stewart]

So Gary, I guess if you had to have only one, you'd have a fiber, but doing what you do, would you only have a fiber laser? Glad to hear that you would have bought it sooner thought, that's telling.

[Gary Hair]

but doing what you do, would you only have a fiber laser?

I could get away with just fiber and still do pretty well, but I have one customer that I mark thousands of anodized parts every month and it would be a lot more work with the fiber vs the laser. That's only because they have a large number of parts and a large number of designs per part and the orders are random. I have macros and custom programming in Corel to make this very easy, not so easy with the software that runs the fiber. I suppose I could do it if I had to, but I don't have to so I won't even try. If/when my co2 dies, I'll buy another for sure. Now that I have both I really couldn't live with just one.

[Neville Stewart]

Ok this is too cool. A fiber/CO2 dual!
http://www.troteclaser.com/en-US-CA/Laser-Machines/Mid-Size/Pages/Speedy300flexx.aspx

[Mike Null]

Neville

Most people I've talked with consider this to be less than an optimal solution preferring instead to have two machines. The cost of the dual machine is a challenge as well.

[Neville Stewart]

Thank you Mike, I assumed the cost of a dual machine might be sensibly less that one of each. So in general if I could get a demo 80 w for around $25k what range would a fiber be in?

[Gary Hair]

Ok this is too cool. A fiber/CO2 dual!
http://www.troteclaser.com/en-US-CA/Laser-Machines/Mid-Size/Pages/Speedy300flexx.aspx

The fact that it's a gantry machine makes it very undesirable to me. You lose a lot of functionality and quality with gantry vs galvo.

[Gary Hair]

Thank you Mike, I assumed the cost of a dual machine might be sensibly less that one of each. So in general if I could get a demo 80 w for around $25k what range would a fiber be in?


YOu can import in a 30 watt Chinese fiber for less than $15k. You lose support on a Chinese laser but the machine is not a whole lot different than any mainstream brand so you get three times the value, in my opinion anyway.

[Scott Shepherd]

Thank you Mike, I assumed the cost of a dual machine might be sensibly less that one of each. So in general if I could get a demo 80 w for around $25k what range would a fiber be in?

If believe it was about $20000-30,000 more to add the fiber to the Trotec. $20,000 for the 20w, and $30K for the 30w if I recall correctly. It's been a couple of years since I've seen it quoted, so that might not be accurate, but it's close. It's almost like adding the cost of another entire machine onto it, I do know that. I think I saw a quote that was in the $50-55K range for it.

[Neville Stewart]

I was looking at Chinese Fiber machines from an American distributor in fact. I'll have to do my homework. Does anybody on the forum have one? As you say the machines arent terribly different. I wonder why they can't compete with the speed of a trifecta or any American brand when it comes to engraving?

[Scott Shepherd]

I was looking at Chinese Fiber machines from an American distributor in fact. I'll have to do my homework. Does anybody on the forum have one? As you say the machines arent terribly different. I wonder why they can't compete with the speed of a trifecta or any American brand when it comes to engraving?

They could if they wanted to, but they don't want to. They could certainly offer better motors, electronics, software, but if they did all that, then they wouldn't be able to offer cheap machines, which lures people in. Then they'd have to add English speaking tech support that was available during western business hours, and English manuals written by people that speak English as a first language, etc.

That's just not who they are, in the market place, I don't think.

[Neville Stewart]

"Trifecta". Good lord, autocorrect can be a pain in the bum. I meant Trotec, anyway, thanks all. I will be looking at real performers for the engraving machine so a Trotec is high on the list. So what would be the pros and cons of a gantry versus galvo fiber laser, and the galvo is the one with the fixed head, that you place parts under?

[Dave Sheldrake]

A Galvo has two or three mirrors very close together and a long way from the work, movement of the beam is by tiny tiny movements of the mirrors via a *straightening* lens.

A Galvo in any given wavelength will have a larger spot size as the focal distance is also a lot longer, I have Fibers in both Gantry and Galvo and the Gantry rarely gets used these days unless I want to cut metal parts from bigger sheets at lower powers.

High power CO2 will also engrave metals but you are looking at big powers from 400 watts upwards (with 2kW being a more useful basic size)

If the lions share of your work is metal then a Fiber Galvo works very well although the quoted 9m per second speeds aren't obtainable on low power (under 100 watt) machines so the benefits over the speeds of say a gantry Trotech just aren't there.

[Gary Hair]

So what would be the pros and cons of a gantry versus galvo fiber laser, and the galvo is the one with the fixed head, that you place parts under?

Gantry moves back and forth just like your co2 and has a very limited speed range due to the mass of the carriage (mirror/lens assembly). Galvo has rotating mirrors and are very high speed. There really is no comparison of the speed of a gantry vs galvo because the two of them work so differently. If you have a need to mark anodized aluminum then a galvo will give you a much better mark, it's whiter, brighter and generally looks better. This isn't just my opinion, it's from the manufacturers that produce both - the gantry only mfg's won't tell you this little fact... The feature that a galvo has that I use on every single job is the ability to "draw" the engraved image on the material with the red beam. I use this for alignment and as a reality check to ensure what I have drawn will look the same engraved. That's impossible to do with a gantry. I can also secure the part and while the red beam draws the image to engrave, move the image interactively using my keyboard. Neither of these are possible with a gantry machine and have proved to be invaluable for me. Deep engraving, although possible on a gantry machine, is really only feasible on a galvo machine due to the way it works. I don't have exact numbers, but I have been told that deep engraving on galvo vs gantry could be several orders of magnitude different.
If you lasered anodized parts on any Trotec machine, either co2 or fiber, I guarantee you that my 30 watt fiber will run the same parts many times faster and the results will be significantly better. An example - some very small parts that I run on a daily basis would take approximately 165 sec to run 20 on my co2 (at 40 ips/50% power) - the fiber marks 5 at a time in 4.38 seconds! That comes out to 17.52 seconds for 20 vs 165 seconds on the co2. The Trotec machines are supposed to be very fast, and I have no reason to doubt that, but there is no way they could even come close to 17.52 seconds - with the same resolution, quality, consistent marking.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think where you get the speed on a Trotec on things like that is by doing a lot of them in a row, or rows. For example, if it's 1/4" tall text on tags, and you can put 30 of them in a row, it might take 45 seconds to do the text, so that's 45 seconds divided by 30 pieces, or less than 2 second each.

Everything is relative in this world. It's all relative to your job, your machines, your ability to fixture things, etc. It's just impossible to say anything is black and white in this business because it's all more complicated than that.

I think all the machines have a niche that they do really well. It's just whether or not your work falls into those niche markets and if your wallet can handle it.

[Glen Monaghan]

Your 17.52 seconds doesn't take into account the time needed to remove 5 marked parts, insert/align 5 new parts, start the job again, and repeat two more times to get 20 marked parts. Probably still significantly faster than 165 seconds, but slower than 17.52 seconds, plus it keeps you tied up tending the machine more often.

[Dan Hintz]

Wish I could add more, but it seems like Gary, Dave, and Steve have covered it pretty well.

[Neville Stewart]

Well thank you all, an enlightening lesson indeed. Many factors to consider and research further. As always thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences.

[Nick Michalares]

Here are some other models to check out:
http://www.gravograph.co.uk/engraving-machines/laser-applications-selection-guide.php

[Gary Hair]

Your 17.52 seconds doesn't take into account the time needed to remove 5 marked parts, insert/align 5 new parts, start the job again, and repeat two more times to get 20 marked parts.

You are absolutely correct. However, I still have to load and remove the parts in the fixture for the co2 so there isn't any additional time needed and the only thing I need to compare is the lasering time.


plus it keeps you tied up tending the machine more often.

At $2.50 per part, ($513.00/hour) I'll sit there and watch it all day... if I had that many parts to laser that is...

[Neville Stewart]

$513 per hour! Ill be your apprentice Gary, Im partial to the North West : )

[Gerald Courville]

Anyone have experience with the TYKMA Vereo fiber laser? I am about to purchase a 30 watt Galvo Fiber Laser to go with my Gantry 30 watt fiber and 50 Watt CO2 laser. Primary use will be to deep engrave guns.





$513 per hour! Ill be your apprentice Gary, Im partial to the North West : )

[Neville Stewart]

TYKMA, they look good, pricey I'd imagine.

[Gary Hair]

TYKMA, they look good, pricey I'd imagine.

What's interesting about them is that they use the same software I have with my Chinese fiber. Could be that they OEM Chinese equipment, add their label and (hopefully) support. I'd be curious to see how much of a premium they charge for that.

[Neville Stewart]

I would guess you may be right then Gary. If you would go to the trouble to build your own machine I can't imagine you would want to use Chinese SW.

[Gerald Courville]

Thanks,
which open class fiber laser would you recommend?

[matthew knott]

Tykma laser have just been brought by Electrox laser (600 group) don't think it will have any effect in the short term to anything. Tykma are clearly using an SPI laser source which is made in the UK not China but they are using Chinese software and to be honest it's excellent software. Nothing wrong with Chinese fibre lasers but support will always be an issue, that's what your really paying for, remember ANY of the services anyone on here is selling would cost 1/4 the price in China but it comes at a cost. Also there is a slim risk of Chinese lasers being impounded as they tend to skip compulsory safety aspects like safety shutters and interlocks but in reality they are not really anymore dangerous in actual use.

[Matt Geraci]

I'm looking at a Chinese Fiber. Anyone have experience with XTLaser? I'm in touch with Lucy at G.Weike and she's running some demos for me. Gary, I know you used them. Sounds like you had a good experience with your purchase?

[Gary Hair]

I've been using mine daily for about a year and a half and it has served me very well. It worked fine out of the box and hasn't had any down time from the time I first turned it on - nothing but software configuration issues anyway. It came with a "questionable" version of Windows but when I installed a fresh (legal) copy and moved the software over everything was fine. Before you even turn on the machine I would suggest you disconnect the existing hard drive, install a brand-new one, install Windows, then put the original drive in as a secondary drive, then copy the software to run the laser, then remove the original drive and keep for when you screw up the laser software. Trust me, you will be happier in the long run if you do this. Otherwise, you won't be sorry getting a laser from Lucy!!

[Patrick Smithwick]

I'm looking at a Chinese Fiber. Anyone have experience with XTLaser? I'm in touch with Lucy at G.Weike and she's running some demos for me. Gary, I know you used them. Sounds like you had a good experience with your purchase?

I have been running a Wisely 20w Galvo and I like Gary couldn't be happier with it!

[Gary Hair]

I have been running a Wisely 20w Galvo and I like Gary couldn't be happier with it!

So I'm guessing you have the Raycus source since you are running EZCAD? Did they give you pricing on the IPG source?

[Scott Challoner]

Gary, I'm going with Wisely too, as they had a great July promotion. They quoted me a difference of $3,600 for the IPG source on a 30W.

[Gary Hair]

Gary, I'm going with Wisely too, as they had a great July promotion. They quoted me a difference of $3,600 for the IPG source on a 30W.

I just got a quote from them that has the IPG $2,800 more than the Raycus. Two reasons I'd consider the IPG over the Raycus - the IPG is a better source and it will give you more options for software. SCAPS is the standard they use with the IPG and EZCAD for Raycus. EZCAD really is a terrible program but it's usable, SCAPS looks to be a much better design program vs import and go for EZCAD. I'm checking to see if they have a demo version of SCAPS and if it will work with my Raycus source.

[Matt Geraci]

I'm so glad you posted this. IPG versus Raycus is my debate. IPG sounds like the best option, but comes with a price. I'm leaning towards the 50w for deep metal engraving and speed. Raycus versus IPG - what do you think?

What about Galvo Heads? Anyone better than the other? XTLaser uses Century Sunny (TSH8618A/D) and GWeike uses Galvotech.

Thanks for the tips on the computer and hard drive. I will follow your advice. I've only heard of EZCad and thought I was locked into that if I got a Chinese Galvo. If I get an IPG laser is there an alternate software package? I've mostly used Inkscape to this point for all my artwork and was just planning on importing to EZCad and hitting "Mark". Better ways to do business?

Any thoughts you guys have on these and the process to get them are appreciated! Thanks!

Matt





I just got a quote from them that has the IPG $2,800 more than the Raycus. Two reasons I'd consider the IPG over the Raycus - the IPG is a better source and it will give you more options for software. SCAPS is the standard they use with the IPG and EZCAD for Raycus. EZCAD really is a terrible program but it's usable, SCAPS looks to be a much better design program vs import and go for EZCAD. I'm checking to see if they have a demo version of SCAPS and if it will work with my Raycus source.

[Scott Challoner]

I just got a quote from them that has the IPG $2,800 more than the Raycus. Two reasons I'd consider the IPG over the Raycus - the IPG is a better source and it will give you more options for software. SCAPS is the standard they use with the IPG and EZCAD for Raycus. EZCAD really is a terrible program but it's usable, SCAPS looks to be a much better design program vs import and go for EZCAD. I'm checking to see if they have a demo version of SCAPS and if it will work with my Raycus source.

Let me know if you can use SCAPS. I was leaning toward the IPG, but I also got a rotary and an extra lens so I was trying to keep the costs down.

[Gary Hair]

Let me know if you can use SCAPS. I was leaning toward the IPG, but I also got a rotary and an extra lens so I was trying to keep the costs down.

I can but it takes a different controller. The controller and a legit copy of the software are about $3,000. I downloaded a demo version and it looks pretty decent but not sure it's worth that much to switch.

[Matt Geraci]

I'm planning on using EZCAD for now I guess. May splurge for the IPG source. Have to figure out the import issues to get it into the Port of Jacksonville, FL (anyone got any tips?) How do you run your galvo- in a box or open on a desktop? There's a lot of open laser sources shooting off in China - not certain of the safety regs there!!!

Here's a comparison laser source video:
IPG Video at 30 W: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIXxmyj7lE
Raycus video at 30 W: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5yIA1ucxFY
Can you tell a difference? Raycus looks a bit wider and darker, possibly?

From what it looks like these are component assemblies, so conceptually possible to change out control boards and galvo heads down the road? Heck even build your own?!?

Matt

[Gary Hair]

How do you run your galvo- in a box or open on a desktop?
Mine is in a workstation - look on the G Weike site for their LF-20, mine looks just like that.


Here's a comparison laser source video:
IPG Video at 30 W: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIXxmyj7lE
Raycus video at 30 W: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5yIA1ucxFY
Can you tell a difference? Raycus looks a bit wider and darker, possibly?
They are probably using different settings, otherwise you'll get pretty similar results doing deep engraving on stainless. I'm not sure where the real benefit is for the IPC besides the higher frequency, and I'm not sure what benefit that has. Not questioning the benefit, I truly don't know what it will give you.


From what it looks like these are component assemblies, so conceptually possible to change out control boards and galvo heads down the road? Heck even build your own?!?
Absolutely possible to build your own. There is no reason you can't take the control board, source and galvo head and setup whatever you want to setup. Not sure it's worth the time to do it, by the time you buy the individual components you're probably not too far off the price of a system. Even though the Chinese manufacturers get a lot of flack for lack of quality, these machines are actually built pretty well.

I'd really like to see if there is anything the IPG source can do differently for me that would make a difference in my workflow, quality, speed, etc. That would surely help justify spending more money if the benefits were there.

[Scott Challoner]

Maybe you can make something like this. It looks like a combination galvo/gantry of some kind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTFsLsNPQhs

[Jacob John]

This thread has me drooling. I would love to add this one (Trotec Fiber SpeedMarker) to my stable, but I can only imagine the price.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdOxkWcpeJM

[Patrick Smithwick]

I am running the Raycus and EZcad. At the time the IPG was considerably more and was out of my budget.

[Matt Geraci]

How do you like the product and your end result engravings? What do you mainly engrave? Video comparisons I've seen on aluminim and steel I can't really tell a difference between IPG and Raycus, Raycus bean may be a tad wider...?

Are you running a desktop unit or do you have the enclosed tower? Trying to figure out what configuration I need for my workflow - I want to make sure things are able to move in and out of the beam path easily but want to be safe. Considering building my own box to cover and get some "fiber-proof" glass to view.


I am running the Raycus and EZcad. At the time the IPG was considerably more and was out of my budget.

[Patrick Smithwick]

I am very happy with the machine and the work that it does. I engrave everything from knives, to firearms to spatulas! To give you an idea of detail, i did a USMC eagle globe and anchor on a Springfield XD slide that you needed a magnifying glass to read "Semper Fidelis" and you could read it. It was explained to me that for 95% percent of what most people do they will never notice the difference. If for manufacturing aerospace parts maybe a different story. For my purpose it appears to be just what i was looking for.

As far as the model, i use a desktop unit. Many commercial enclosures are available or you could certainly build your own custom.


How do you like the product and your end result engravings? What do you mainly engrave? Video comparisons I've seen on aluminim and steel I can't really tell a difference between IPG and Raycus, Raycus bean may be a tad wider...?

Are you running a desktop unit or do you have the enclosed tower? Trying to figure out what configuration I need for my workflow - I want to make sure things are able to move in and out of the beam path easily but want to be safe. Considering building my own box to cover and get some "fiber-proof" glass to view.