tax return new purchase -- table saw delimma

[jonathan sneed]

When I first set out to get a new table saw last year I was pretty much resided to buying the Grizzly 715 hybrid 2hp saw. The more research I did the more I found that getting everything square on that particular hybrid saw could be tedious along with my concern about having enough power for 8/4 stock and they don't have a thin kerf knife if I was to purchase a thin blade (to help my power concerns). During the past yr I have had a 220v installed in the garage by a friend for $100 and have stashed away a little more cash, along with tax return. I have a Grizzly bandsaw and absolutely love it so I kinda was ok with sticking with them for my TS purchase. I then moved up to looking at the age old 690 vs 1023 debate..seems like great saws for the money. Then I noticed that when I broadened my horizons I looked at the upper end stuff and have been debating Jet Xacta vs Powermatic PM2000..and now I have a buddy trying to talk me into a SawStop (he recently bought one and it looks sweet!). So basically it went from an $800 hybrid now to a damn $3k beast. I really would like to chill out on the price as I need to upgrade my jointer to 8" and try and get a drum or belt sander somewhere in there too, but I do realize if I get a great saw, it would be a 15yr+ type investement. I do like the dust collection blade shroud of the JET/PM as well as the quick release stuff and the arbor lock / one hand blade switching. The PM does have a cool integrated mobile base which is something that's an absolute as I have a 20x20 garage so everything is mobile. Maybe its just me, but I could see myself changing blades a lot with dados and plywood blades etc. so the arbor lock seems like a big upgrade from the grizzly stuff...maybe in real world application it isn't that big of a deal. I am a realist though and it is hard to swallow the fact I could get a 691 and a grizzly 8" jointer with spiral head cutters for the same as a Powermatic or SawStop. The Jet Xacta is nice and has pretty much the same features as the PM minus the mobile base for a bit cheaper but am I losing any quality by stepping down...and is it that much of a step up from the 690/1023 to be that big of a price jump? Choices choices...I guess this post ended up being more of a rant than a real question, back to the delimma and more research.

[Frank Martin]

I know you are not asking feedback on this, but I will give it to you anyway. If at all you can afford a SawStop, I would recommend you go for it and then upgrade your other machines later. There is no other saw with that safety feature. I had a perfectly solid, Made in USA Unisaw and was planning to upgrade to a SawStop because of the safety features and ended up with a european combo machine instead as one came up at a good price and the sliding table addresses most of the safety concerns. Still though, if there were a euro machine with the SawStop feature, I would consider it.

[David C. Roseman]

[snip] Choices choices...I guess this post ended up being more of a rant than a real question, back to the delimma and more research.

No rant at all, Jonathan! You're just reasoning out loud. :) It's a great way to get to a final decision that's less likely to end up as "woulda, coulda, shoulda" six months later. Nice that you have so many choices. You say 15+ year investment. I'd revise that upwards considerably. No pressure of course. ;)

[Art Mann]

Pretty soon, some Sawstop advocate is going to chime in and ask you how much your fingers are worth. The implication is that you will inevitably cut yourself without the safety feature. Well, I learned table saw safety in shop class in about 1969. I have been using a table saw regularly since then and I haven't hurt myself yet. The brake feature is a nice feature, but it absolutely is not required to operate a table saw safely. If you go with another brand, you need to take the time to study safe operation techniques and to understand what sort of situations produce accidents.

[Bill Space]

Hi Jonathan,

I got 20+ years out of my Craftsman contractors type saw and 6" jointer, so I expect you and I both will get the rest of lives out of our cabinet saw choices, whatever they may be.

I too have had good luck with Grizzly tools and when I was shopping a couple years ago it was natural for me to upgrade my Craftsman stuff to Grizzly. I bought the G1023RLWX cabinet saw and the G0490X 8" jointer with spiral cutter head.

No complaints, totally satisfied, happy camper... The Jointer has a nice built-in mobile base. The saw does not.

Personally I did not consider a SS for various reasons. They are great saws from what I have read. I used one at work once (in our carpenter shop in a steel mill, top of the line model) and really I don't feel like my Grizzly is THAT much different, aside from not having the blade stop feature.

I am sure you will love whatever you decide to buy. It is a personal decision, probably best aided by others sharing what they have done, for consideration as you work through the decision for yourself.

Glad to hear you have the opportunity to upgrade! Hard to explain the feeling of using newer, higher quality equipment in one's home shop!

Good luck with your decision!

Bill

[scott vroom]

I've had the G0690 going on 6 years....it sees a lot of use. Never had a mechanical problem. There are better saws, but hard to find a better value IMO. If you're deciding between a Powermatic or a Griz TS + 8" jointer I'd definitely go with the later (I've got a G0490 with a spiral cutter upgrade).

Good luck.

[John Schweikert]

For quite some time I had the Grizzly G0715P on my radar. I had seen the reports of some owners having alignment issues, but more recently my understanding is that Grizzly has worked out those issues. They also now have another hybrid saw the G0771 which appears the same in most specs. Either of those would be excellent saws and great bang for buck for any hobbyist. You can convert those saws to 220V easily.

It's really a preference of whether you need a 3-5hp machine and the extra cost. That decision is simply your own.

I do own a Sawstop, superb saw, the 1.75PCS. Absolutely flawless in alignment out of the crate. Fit and finish are top. But the price was very high. As a a long time hobby user, and after an injury last year, the Sawstop was a personal preference. Sort of no different than if I were still flying and ever had the money to buy a small plane, I would get a Cirrus which comes with a parachute and has saved over 100 lives to date. The argument can go on forever, you have tough guys who say they are uber safe and never an injury, well I was one of those until last summer. And you know what, sh!t happens to the best of us. Kind of like the guy recently who mistakenly used the wrong powder in his muzzleloader and the gun exploded and he lost 2 fingers. Tools and toys are fun, but even with the best of safety, unfortunate issues can arise.

Buy the Grizzly, you will be happy and so will your wallet. If and only if you prefer the safety feature of Sawstop and the better build quality, then spend the extra money. It is not our decision for you. But enjoy whatever you get.

[Jim Andrew]

Have you looked at the sliding tablesaws? Last year I bought a Hammer K3 winner, 79x48. It was almost 7,000 delivered with a few extras. Find it an amazing crosscut saw, as well as rip. Grizzly has the same size saw, G0623x, and a short stroke slider, G0700. If I were doing this over, would look at the Grizzly models.

[Cary Falk]

If you feel you need/want a SawStop then get it. Otherwise, I don't feel any slight quality improvements that may exist over the Grizzly are worth the 50%+ cost. I have the G01023RL( on a mobile base I made) since it was introduced and still love it. Overall quality compared to Jet is about the same with my Grizzly tools having a better fit and finish. I don't have any issues with using 2 wrenches to change blades. I thought the PM2000 had issues with the arbor lock breaking. Maybe they got that fixed. If you have a rough floor, the wheels on the PM2000 are small and I think they only raise the saw about 3/4". The larger table of the PM2000 would be nice but that causes problems if you put on after market router tables, etc made for the standard 27" table. Good luck with your decision.

[jonathan sneed]

Well I guess I never really considered a SS because of the cost..and to me it seems silly to get a 1.75 hp Sawstop hybrid that costs more than a full on 3or 5 hp cabinet saw. My friend was like well if you're spending the $$ for a Jet, might as well get a Powermatic, but if you're spending that much $$ you might as well buy a 3hp Sawstop." lol...the cost keeps escalating...other than the safety feature im not sure the SS is any better than the PM or JET...and is the PM or Jet really that much better of a saw than grizzly to justify the price? although there are features I do like on those two moreso than grizz. Now keep in mind ive only seen these, never full on operated them so my opinions are subjective to this point.

[jonathan sneed]

oh and yes I was thinking about a slider attachment to the saw which ever one it get, I think the grizz slider attachment will fit the griz 715 but not sure...I know their outfeed table wont fit the 715 but one can make one easily enough

[jack duren]

Unless you just need "Look at my saw" I would just get the Grizzly. I'm a Delta person, use a 12" Powermatic at work and have worked with a Grizzy 10" when slow at a buddies cabinetshop. I may not like the name but it got the job done the same. Look into price of saw and fence.....

[John TenEyck]

To me this would be an easy choice. I'd buy the Sawstop if I wanted a new saw; otherwise, it would be a used cabinet saw. There's just not enough new stuff, performance or safety wise, on a non Sawstop TS to justify the price over a used saw. You can get a used Unisaw or equivalent for $500 or less and it will outlast you. Now you have plenty of money for an 8" jointer with spiral head, or whatever else you want. You might even consider a 10" or 12" J/P. You'll still be under $3K.

John

[Kent A Bathurst]

Jonathan -

First - One side note re: your OP:

ON thicker stock - yeah, you can use a thinner blade. I don't do that because it means my fence scale has to be recalibrated - round trip - to and from thin kerf.

What you really want to do, IMO, is get a blade with fewer teeth. Cut not as clean - but still cleans up with same # of swipes on the jointer.

I have a pair of Forrest WW-II 40t for most-all-the-time use [one ont he saw, one out for sharpening or in reserve]. But - when I started doing a regular amount of thick stuff, I added:

First, a Forrest 30t rip blade. It goes on for 6/4

Second, I got a Forrest 20 t rip blade. It goes on for 8/4. Man-o-man - that makes a HUGE difference, as you would expect. 8/4 - 10/4 [haven't run 12/4 yet - should be the same results] QSWO or HM runs thru it just as easy as 4/4 on my 40t. Not really sure I need the 30t, but I already had it when I got the 20t, so it is there.

On the saw itself:

I have a 15 yr old Left-tilt 3hp Uni. No impetus to make a change. Added riving qccessories, tossed the laughable OEM guard and splitter Day One. If I was going to get a replacement TS, I am firmly in the camps of Mann, Vroom Dude[tm] & J-10.

A solid used Uni or PM 66 will be your grandson's saw if properly maintained - which ain't any more than maintaining a new saw - maybe have to replace belts & bearings sooner - but that is not a serious deal. Riving knife - OEM or aftermarket - is the one critical feature on a used saw. On a new saw - Scott's knowledge on the Grizz products carries serious weight with me.

As far as what you should get: Whatever. You are balancing the right options. Won't make a bad choice from what you have said so far. Question is: How much $$ are you comfortable with? Don't get tunnel-vision on the saw itself - be sure you have some plans on the other stuff that will have to come with it.

Me - I got's a very solid stack of $$ in the blades and miter gauge/sled.

2 @ WW-II 40t combo
WW 30t rip
WW 20t rip
WW 80t panel/crosscut
Forrest Dado King
Incra 1000SE

That's pushing a grand right there. The saw itself does not make sawdust. It is the blades that perform that function, and the miter sled that holds stuff while you do it. The TS itself is merely a flat surface with a motor and a dust collection hookup.

[John Coloccia]

other than the safety feature im not sure the SS is any better than the PM or JET...and is the PM or Jet really that much better of a saw than grizzly to justify the price? although there are features I do like on those two moreso than grizz. Now keep in mind ive only seen these, never full on operated them so my opinions are subjective to this point.

The SawStop PCS and Powermatic PM2000 are about a tossup for me, and both are certainly nicer than the Jet or anything Grizzly makes. I'm not sure how Jet compares to Grizzly. That's not to say that Grizzly just makes junk, but you pay a premium for the SS and Powermatic, and you get a premium product, as you should. What I'll say about Jet is that I believe it generally turns out to be a poor value. You'll probably pay more for a level of quality you can get elsewhere for less.

If you're considering the Powermatic 2000, just get a SS PCS for about the same price and be done with it. I think the Powermatic is a bit heavier duty, more like the SawStop ICS, but I think the PCS overall is a bit of a nicer saw, and running at 3HP both saws are way overbuilt anyway. The overall safety and design features of the PCS push it over the top, IMHO.

[David L Morse]

Two years ago I was going through the same decision making process that you are now Jonathan. I was trying to understand the differences between the Grizzly 691 and 1023 while at the same time comparing them to the high end saws. At some point I realized that I was actually considering spending $3K on a table saw! With that realization the choice became very clear. I bought the G0623X. The incremental improvement per dollar in capability for the slider was enormously greater than that for the high end saws, although this depends somewhat upon your valuation of the sawstop safety feature.

[scott spencer]

The jump from a hybrid to a 3hp industrial cabinet saw is pretty substantial...not only is there > 70% increase in horsepower, but there's also loads more mass, bigger handwheels, very robust underpinnings, freedom to dictate whatever feed rate you're most comfortable with, and the reassurance that your saw will effortlessly handle whatever you throw at it for several decades without strain. I think the G1023RL offers a great bang for the buck at $1400. It's hard to find more saw for the money in a new saw at this level IMO. The Jet is a nice saw, but much of the price increase is for dealer markup and longer warranty...it's not a substantial step up IMO, and could be argued that they're fairly comparable. The PM2000 offers a step up, but but how much is hard to say....its subjective. I personally would never consider spending that much money for a saw without the safety feature when the Saw Stop is so close in price and adds the safety brake...huge advantage goes to the SS PCS 3hp at this price level IMO.

If you're interested in the safety brake of a Saw Stop, the least expensive option in a full size saw is the contractor model at ~ $1700, but it comes with steel wings and a pretty modest fence for this price range of saw. The price of a decently equipped Saw Stop is realistically closer to $2000, but the saw isn't on par with a 3hp industrial cabinet saw....it's well built and will make the cuts, but still has many of the drawbacks of a contractor saw. A stripped PCS 1.75hp is around $2300, which seems like the better buy to me than the contractor saw for $2k. The Premium fence on the PCS isn't at the same level as the T-Glide (or the Shop Fox Classic on the Grizzly), but it's decent. I actually think the term "Premium fence" is a bit of a misnomer...it's not really a premium fence IMO, so you may still want the upgrade to the T-Glide fence, which is a premium fence. Still not a 3hp cabinet saw, but is a step in the right direction. Those prices are without a mobile base, blade, or other accessories that you might want/need, so the total can get pretty steep in a hurry. The PCS 3hp with the better fence is near $2900 to get started.

Ultimately, you'll need to decide what means most to. Do you want the most saw for the money, a decent saw with the safety technology, or do you want to save longer and get the best of both worlds for closer to $3k?

[jack duren]

Theres also Delta table saws..Usually a bit cheaper than powermatic ...

[John Coloccia]

The new Unisaws are very nice, actually, and might very well be my preference after the SawStop if not for the fact that Delta has become more or less useless when it comes to replacement parts. If something breaks, you might well be stuck with a boat anchor. I think Unisaw parts have been a little more commonly available than everything else they make, but their continued inability to support brand new tools right out of the box is just a complete non-starter with me.

[jack duren]

What kind of problems?

[jonathan sneed]

Hmm..is the shop fox fence on the grizzly 690/1023 the same or close to the Jet Xacta..looks similar..

[scott spencer]

Hmm..is the shop fox fence on the grizzly 690/1023 the same or close to the Jet Xacta..looks similar..

They're all clones of the Biesemeyer commercial fence, and are fairly similar. SF Classic isn't exactly the same as what's on the G0690. The Xacta II is basically an HTC fence, same as the PM Accufence. The SF Classic and HTC fences will all fit on the commercial Biesemeyer rails...don't think the G0690 generic fence will.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Saws/sfclass_zpstnobswk9.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Saws/SFclassicbot_zps5rok9ix1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Saws/XactaIIfc_zpssixpl8zt.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Saws/pmfencebt2_zpshnkhi76f.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Saws/g0690_det4_zpsc907qynh.jpg

[Keith Hankins]

Well, it comes down to $$$ and what you want. We've all been down that road. I've said it many times, don't settle, or you will just regret it. I had the 1023slx for 10 years and it was a good saw.

I'd say go 3hp minimum (i've had smaller and upgraded ), it just has the power to do what you need and not baby it to "make it work".

If money is a real issue, use searchtempest and get an old american piece of iron.

However, if you can swing it, go SawStop. You won't regret it and they are great saws. I know they are expensive, but man, now that I've had mine for a year, I don't regret that extra $$ at all. Look at it this way, take that cost and devide it over what your ww career will be. The annual cost is minimal for what you get.

I saved for over two years (really putting dollars here and there away), and use the proceeds from selling the 1023 ($800), to get my 5hpICS. Never thought I'd spend that much on a tool, but it's worth it.

In the end, you have to do what works for you. Good luck and post picks of what ever toy you do go with as we all looking at new toys. Have a good one!

[jonathan sneed]

Also..to those with a 30" rip like the 690, do u wish u had the longer rail 691 for 50" rip? I'd be doing some plywood from time to time , not sure if the longer rail extension is something handy or just takes up more space you don't necessarily need per say....I could see where an outfeed table though would be hugely helpful

[scott spencer]

Also..to those with a 30" rip like the 690, do u wish u had the longer rail 691 for 50" rip? I'd be doing some plywood from time to time , not sure if the longer rail extension is something handy or just takes up more space you don't necessarily need per say....I could see where an outfeed table though would be hugely helpful

If you're "on the fence" about 30" or 50" rip, you can slide the 30" front rail over (http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/34563) to the right to get it to ~ 40" rip capacity. It's pretty easy, and if you move the rail exactly the distance of one bolt hole, there's no drilling. :)

[Jim Andrew]

Getting a sliding table attachment is not the same as getting a sliding tablesaw. The slider had the slide very close to the blade, while it is several inches away with an attachment. I use my sliding table to straight edge boards, it is very accurate. And I can square a panel with almost perfect accuracy, less than 1/32"measured diagonally.

[Peter Kelly]

Agreed. I tried just about every sliding table attachement (Mast R Slide, Excalibur, Laguna) for my old Unisaw and they all drove me insane trying to get consistently square cuts particularly with sheet goods. Finally sold everything and picked up an SC2 Classic.

There's just no going back to a cabinet saw once you've gotten used to a slider.

[David Kumm]

I'd open the options and look for a short stroke slider. Friend of mine just picked up a 1500mm saw shaper for less than 3K and it was a top end build. Dave

[James Nugnes]

Just for kicks went to look at the marketing material for the SC2 Classic. What a beautiful piece of woodworking equipment.

[jonathan sneed]

Hmm I was leaning toward the Jet Xacta but just downloaded the manual and read where it's 330lbs...misprint maybe? Aren't most 3hp cabinet saws in the 400-500lb range? Is that something that should matter even? Did they shave off weight or cheap out on something I'm not aware of...it sure looks heavier than 330...l was always under the impression heavier is better for a cabinet saw..seems like 330lbs is slightly heavier than some contractor saws but lighter than some hybrids
.I think the grizzly hybrid is 380lbs. Just seems a bit light to me..it may not matter I don't know

[glenn bradley]

Remember that every response here is someone's opinion to be factored into your own decision making process. I won't discuss the cost of fingers for the reasons given. Even without the safety feature I would take the Saw Stop PCS over the Powermatic PM2000 for about the same price. PM is just a little too proud, price-wise, for their stuff for what you get IMHO although their 3520 lathes are very nice (and I don't even turn).

You have already figured out that you don't want a saw without cabinet mounted trunnions due to the adjustment ills of table mounted trunnions like the Grizzly G0715 and I get that. As mentioned the step from a hybrid to a cab saw is not insignificant and puts you in a different class of machine; price ranges are different too, accordingly.

As to getting two machines instead of one if you settle for a <insert brand and model here>. . . this seems like a good logic until a couple months later when the honeymoon effect wears off. If you are going to have a tablesaw-centric shop, which this thread certainly makes it sound like you are, the tablesaw will be your anchor machine. By this I meant that you will probably make jigs, learn methods and start to think around the tablesaw during your decisions on how to do certain things. This is how I work so it is familiar ground for me. You want to either go really cheap (as in a throw-away saw) and plan on an upgrade to what you really want later -or- go solid in your tablesaw decision and never look back. Landing in between is only a waste of money and time based on my own painful experiences and IMHO.

[Rod Sheridan]

Jonathan, once you get into that range it's time to give up on the cabinet saw and buy a small Euro slider like the Hammer K3.

Far more capacity and capability in the same footprint.

- ability to crosscut sheet goods

- ability to staright line rip

- dado and scoring saw options

Here's a video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZoRaBn-n70

Regards, Rod.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Jonathan, once you get into that range it's time to give up on the cabinet saw and buy a small Euro slider like the Hammer K3.

Being lazy here, Rod - help me out: $$$ ?

[scott spencer]

Hmm I was leaning toward the Jet Xacta but just downloaded the manual and read where it's 330lbs...misprint maybe? Aren't most 3hp cabinet saws in the 400-500lb range? Is that something that should matter even? Did they shave off weight or cheap out on something I'm not aware of...it sure looks heavier than 330...l was always under the impression heavier is better for a cabinet saw..seems like 330lbs is slightly heavier than some contractor saws but lighter than some hybrids
.I think the grizzly hybrid is 380lbs. Just seems a bit light to me..it may not matter I don't know

I doubt its that light...with what's under the hood, it should weigh at least 100# more than stated. The exploded pictorial of the Xacta show it to be notably more substantial than a hybrid, and is fairly similar to the G0690.

[Rod Sheridan]

Being lazy here, Rod - help me out: $$$ ?

Not sure, I think I saw them for under $6K in the USA for the 4 foot stroke slider??

Maybe someone local could pop up with the info...............Rod.

[Frank Pratt]

A couple of months ago I checked & the K3 Comfort was somewhere around $6500 in Canada. Too rich for me.

[glenn bradley]

If you're "on the fence" about 30" or 50" rip, you can slide the 30" front rail over (http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/34563) to the right to get it to ~ 40" rip capacity. It's pretty easy, and if you move the rail exactly the distance of one bolt hole, there's no drilling. :)

I'm glad Scott mentioned that. I did this on a previous saw with a Beis fence due to Scott's thread on the subject. 30" was often too short and 40" was almost always long enough ;-) I was a happy guy but, have since moved on to a 52" reach on a different machine but, the 40" served me very well.

[jonathan sneed]

I think I have come to the conclusion on a Jet Xacta 3hp 30 possibly 50". The more I look at stuff the more I come back to this one. Its slightly higher than what I originally was looking to spend. I truly went into this thinking I would end up with a Grizzly 690/691 as I have a griz bandsaw and love it, but to me the Jet seems to be more on par with the quality of the PM2000 (minus the integrated mobile base and neato miter setup) than some of the others. I think the 690/691 is honestly probably the best bang for the buck, but as it stands the Jet seems to have things I prefer..although the price savings of the Grizz keep me wondering if I should just go that route. CPO outlets seem to be the best deal with the 30" going for $2294.99, free shipping and no tax. Home Depot is charging $55 shipping and state sales tax $193. I think the PM2000 is great but a lot more $$ for not much upgrades and the SawStop honestly is just out of my budget. I could see if I was going with a PM I should probably just get a SS but as it is the SS is about $1000 more than what I can spend. Ive been keeping an eye out for those usual 10 or 15% off jet tools sale but im sure I have to wait til fathers day/labor day/4th type of day for it to come around.

[Rick Moyer]

Sounds like you may have made up your mind but I would definitely go Grizzly 0690/0691 over the more expensive Jet. The arbor lock is a non-issue, two wrenches work just fine. No 8" jointer? That's a requirement for me and is exactly the direction I went. Both tools Grizzly. Sure I might prefer a SawStop, and a 12" jointer, and a 20" bandsaw, and ....., but I can't afford all that so I did the next best thing for me; get a reasonably good saw, jointer, bandsaw, etc. and use them. I will say that the 0691 table saw I bought is world's better than the Craftsman contractor saw I replaced. I put a mobile base under it but now that I have it connected to a cyclone DC I never move it anyway. The cyclone was also something that was a requirement for me, so consider that maybe, too. Your money though, so make your best choices for you!

[jonathan sneed]

How's the dust collection in your 691, did u modify it anyway to be better..I hear alot of it settles in the bottom of the cab

[scott spencer]

Buying the Jet online may save some dollars, but you'd be giving up local dealer support, which is really one of the primary advantages of the Jet IMO.

[Kent A Bathurst]

How's the dust collection in your 691, did u modify it anyway to be better..I hear alot of it settles in the bottom of the cab


That is easily correctable on any make or model - will take you a half day at most.

If you get in a jamon that point, PM me and I will give you the bullet points on how to go about it.

I did it on my 15 yr-old Uni, proving it can be done on even the worst. I have a little in the corners, but no buildup. And, I could make the buildup int he corners go away, but it is causing no problems, so I haven't wasted the time.

[Rick Moyer]

I did install a 6" pipe for cabinet dust collection. I get some in the corners but not a whole lot. No big deal I don't think, as most of the stuff goes back to the cyclone and above-the-table is the worst anyway. I also have a Sharkguard on when I can use it. I really don't see the value in a blade shroud for a table saw.

[David C. Roseman]

[snip] CPO outlets seem to be the best deal with the 30" going for $2294.99, free shipping and no tax. Home Depot is charging $55 shipping and state sales tax $193.[snip]

Jonathan, don't know where you're located, but if you would owe $193 sales tax buying from HD, you would likely owe an equivalent use tax buying from CPO Outlets. Nearly all states with a sales tax also have a use tax on items shipped in from out of state on which no sales tax was collected. State tax authorities typically monitor shipping data from interstate trucking companies on big-ticket items and are becoming more aggressive in seeking unpaid tax, interest and penalties. A lot of folks don't think about the use tax obligation until the bill comes in the mail a year or two later for tax, interest and penalties. :eek:

[Art Mann]

It certainly isn't typical for people where I live to pay sales tax on large items bought from other locations over the internet. That is a lot of money and is worth an investigation.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

If you go with Grizzly and decide to upgrade, there will be a line people to buy for not much less than MSRP.

[jonathan sneed]

It certainly isn't typical for people where I live to pay sales tax on large items bought from other locations over the internet. That is a lot of money and is worth an investigation.

same here, never had to pay sales tax over the internet unless the specific company is located in the state where i live. I went through the payment process for CPO and right up until i click submit order is there any indication of tax given in the total, just the price, free shipping and blank on tax. Same with Grizzly, and i have bought from them before when i lived in hawaii and here in texas and no tax charged...they only charge sales tax where thier business is located
* state sales tax included for orders shipped to WA, MO, or PA.

[David Kumm]

You are still liable for use tax in the state you reside on any out of state purchase where no sales tax was paid. Each state is different but most require the payment, negating the benefit. Problem for the states is that the tax is collected mainly on the "honor " system. Wisconsin has a line on the income tax return to remit it. Dave

[Kent A Bathurst]

You are still liable for use tax in the state you reside on any out of state purchase where no sales tax was paid.

Hence the Sumo-rasslin match between Amazon and the Various States. They really, really, really want access to that revenue stream, and are battling hard for a modern legal definition of "nexus" As daily commerce has changed so rapidly and so dramatically, the slow wheels of government have not kept up, and their traditional balance of revenue sourcing is all catty-wampus. One by one, Amazon is resolving it with the states, in favor of the states.

Anyone who thinks that their internet purchases should not be taxed has a very straightforward way to respond and get this corrected: Elect representatives in the State government who share your views.

Rotsa Ruck on that deal.

You should understand, also, that this issue has been in play on fuel taxes for lord-knows-how-long. The long-haul rigs can fill up in a low-tax state, and cruise through multiple higher-tax states without every buying a gallon, but consuming those state's highway services. So - there are [audited] reporting requirements that calculate how much fuel they consumed in each state, and how much tax they would have paid had they bought that quantity of fuel in that state and......pay up, please.

[jonathan sneed]

Well I'm definitely not gonna go out of my way to find someone to take my 8.25% sales tax on my 1k-3k dollar saw if they aren't charging it up front lol..I haven't before and doubt anyone else would. Hence the benefit of Internet orders..Most of my shopping is online cause the competition is heavier, prices tend to be better. I get the benefit of local support but if I can make a significant savings then I'll take it.

[David C. Roseman]

Hence the Sumo-rasslin match between Amazon and the Various States. They really, really, really want access to that revenue stream, and are battling hard for a modern legal definition of "nexus" As daily commerce has changed so rapidly and so dramatically, the slow wheels of government have not kept up, and their traditional balance of revenue sourcing is all catty-wampus. One by one, Amazon is resolving it with the states, in favor of the states.
[snip]

Amazon is a very interesting case. As Kent says, for years they fought attempts by individual states to force them to collect state sales tax at point of sale even in the absence of a legal nexus with those states. They have recently changed their strategy and now support federal legislation that would allow all 50 states to require certain out-of-state vendors to collect sales tax. It's a very smart strategy. They eventually plan to open a fulfillment center in every state near every large city, thus be able to offer same-day delivery to every man, woman and child in the U.S. So they'd be subject to every state's tax laws anyway. If Amazon is going to have to collect sales tax, it wants to be sure every one of it's large competitors does as well. ;)


Well I'm definitely not gonna go out of my way to find someone to take my 8.25% sales tax on my 1k-3k dollar saw if they aren't charging it up front lol..I haven't before and doubt anyone else would. Hence the benefit of Internet orders..Most of my shopping is online cause the competition is heavier, prices tend to be better. I get the benefit of local support but if I can make a significant savings then I'll take it.

Jonathan, it doesn't work that way. Google the name of your state and "use tax" to read your state tax administration's explanation of how it works. As David Kumm noted, it is a self-reportable tax, typically paid at the time you file your state income tax return for the year of purchase. So when you click through the steps of making a purchase from, say, CPO Outlets, there will be no sales tax shown on the "submit order" page. And you can rest assure the online vendor isn't going to risk chilling its sale by pointing out to you that you will still owe use tax equal to the combined state and local sales tax where live. :)

Will your state revenuers try to go after the purchaser for undeclared and unpaid use tax on most Internet purchases? Certainly not at this point; it would be logistically impossible given manpower limitations. Which is why they are trying to force online vendors to collect for them at point of sale. But big-ticket items that are trucked into the state by interstate freight companies, for example machinery and heavy equipment, is a whole 'nuther thing. The freight carriers typically will cooperate by providing shipment information for destinations within the state, and if there was no corresponding use-tax declaration filed with the purchaser's income tax return for that year, it's a simple matter of sending a letter to the purchaser assessing tax, interest and penalties. Compliance is getting easier for the agents to monitor as computer systems and software become more sophisticated. In extreme cases, it is certainly possible for charges to be brought for tax evasion.

BTW, I'm not expressing a view on how things should be, only on how things are. Many, many folks are unaware even of the existence of use taxes. Others are aware of them and choose to ignore them. Some choose to report only big-ticket purchases. Since you were factoring in the non-collection of sales tax by CPO Outlets in your pricing analysis for your table saw, I just wanted to point this out.

[Greg R Bradley]

Yes, the States went after the big sellers first. Amazon is a HUGE seller.

California worked out a deal with Amazon where they got a time to sell without Sales Tax and then had to comply. Now that they had to comply, Amazon wants others to have to comply so that they remain competitive. Some States Sales Tax rates can be a big chunk of the purchase price.

It is going to be interesting in a few years when the States figure out they can go back to people that bought Sales Tax free items and charge them the tax they avoided, penalties for not reporting the tax, and high interest rates on the amount not paid. In most states, the laws requiring Sales Tax to be paid on items bought out of state are already on the books, which means you are responsible for the tax, penalties, and interest.

If you want a sample of this thinking, look at what happens when you file your income taxes in the next few months and have to prove what health insurance that you had, and WHEN, and see the penalties involved on your tax returns.

Hello Big Brother!

OK, off the soapbox and back to woodworking.......

[jonathan sneed]

I just read up on use tax (which I had no idea about)..and I'll go to see specifics in my state cause now it's actually interesting reading. I do know on big items like a vehicle, etc.that when you go to register it back in your state you'd be subjected to tax, or the difference in taxes. I guess my point was I know of no one who has actually done this on items priced at what I'm looking at and below. I'm sure people who do are in the serious minority of all sales, and I'd doubt that anyone on this forum, or anyone i know would voluntarily do it-unless they owned a business of some sort and was subjected to a higher incidence of audit.

[jonathan sneed]

Boy the original subject took an odd turn but this is actually a great discussion since it effects everyone who purchases over the Internet. It probably should be its own post even.

[jonathan sneed]

Oh and a side note, the wifey watched a few SawStop videos and now says that's what I should get and quit being chincy :) ....she said if I wreck my hand then we are screwed for income, we can always come up with the additional $ for safety...makes sense.

[David Kumm]

Approximately 23 states have adopted the uniform sales tax statutes which are necessary for collection and distribution of sales tax covering those states. More will likely adopt and when the laws are the same in all states there will be no exemption for out of state purchases. Until then the use tax covers most states. Wisconsin does actively monitor use tax and routinely sends questionaires to taxpayers claiming amounts that seem out of line relative to their income. Questionaires cover four years and assess an 18% penalty for unpaid tax. Not fun. Dave

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Pretty soon, some Sawstop advocate is going to chime in and ask you how much your fingers are worth. The implication is that you will inevitably cut yourself without the safety feature. Well, I learned table saw safety in shop class in about 1969. I have been using a table saw regularly since then and I haven't hurt myself yet. The brake feature is a nice feature, but it absolutely is not required to operate a table saw safely. If you go with another brand, you need to take the time to study safe operation techniques and to understand what sort of situations produce accidents.

What Art meant to say (I hope) was not "you need to study safe operation if you do not purchase a Saw Stop", but that "You had better study safe operation no matter what"!

I think that you are probably more likely to have a kickback than you are to cut off a finger. The owner of my local Woodcraft told me that the Saw Stop instructions for setup are the best of any he has seen, and he has assembled a bunch of them. There were certainly the best that I have seen, but I have only assembled two saws.

I like my SawStop, and would not change it out, but, if there are some limitations based on the design; for example, there is a DADO brake available, but, I think that it will not work with a 6" DADO, and, they limit the width of the DADO that they want you to use. Well, OK, every saw has a limit on the width, but, I vaguely remember that the Freud adjustable DADO blade would not work with my SawStop. OK, I think that it would not work on my previous saw either, but, if there is something specific that is important to you (like a specific favorite blade or DADO width that you just must use), then make certain that the saw that you choose supports it.

Art, I just realized what you said that you have not hurt yourself yet after about 45 years of use! That is very reassuring to me. My kickback occurred before I learned how to use a table saw and it was the eye opener that caused me to realize that I had better learn something. On the other hand, I am always vigilant and paranoid.

[Phillip Gregory]

Getting back to the original discussion :D if I were you, I'd get the Grizzly G0690/0691 cabinet saw. I have a G0691 (well, my G0691 is branded as a Shop Fox but it's the exact same saw) and they are very, very good for what they cost. You'll have plenty of power to rip 12/4 oak with a 40-50T full-kerf blade and unless I got a particularly excellent example, it's a well-made piece of equipment that keeps its adjustments. It's a huge step up over a 1-1.5 hp contractor or especially the terrible little circular saw turned upside down jobbies.

[Rich Riddle]

Being lazy here, Rod - help me out: $$$ ?
I am not Rod but a couple of years ago they sold the 48"Hammer Winner K3 saw at this time of year for about $3300 with the mobility kit. I picked one up in Delaware for free.