My very first neander dovetail - go ahead and laugh, I can take it

[Edward Clarke]

So I've finally started to practice making neander dovetails. Got myself twenty four feet of 1x4 poplar, a coping saw, dozuki, and a couple of Lee Valley marking gauges. My first attempt looks like hell and sure didn't take any three minutes like Frank Klaus demonstrates but it's mine and I'm happy with it.

I'm cutting six inch pieces with the dozuki, squaring them up with a miter trimmer and using the Lee Valley gauges to mark things out. I can get two test dovetails out of each foot of poplar. If I do two a day, I should be doing a lot better by the end of a week or two.

For your amusement -

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Ok, it's awful but it'll get better. Someday my dovetails will be good enough to go into Derek Cohen's burn pile!

[Judson Green]

Look good for a first attempt. As with most things practice makes perfect. For what its worth half blind dovetails, while seeming to be more difficult, turn out looking much better - only need to look good on one side, not two.

Check out this guy, John Bullar

How to Make a Half-blind Dovetail Joint: http://youtu.be/HPQK_EGyXbY

[ken hatch]

Edward,

Not laughing but smiling because we have all BTDT. I'm not a fan of Japanese saws but some like 'em. Do you have a plane? If so a shooting board should do a better job of squaring than a miter trimmer. Some of the gaps are from crud in the corners, pay close attention to making the base line true and smooth and keep on keeping on. You are on the right track, do several a day until you are happy with the results....shouldn't take too long if you will keep to a daily practice.

ken

[Patrick Harper]

Are you cutting tails first or pins first?

Here's a little secret. All of our first set of dovetails look bad. You were smart enough to get them out of the way in your practice!

[Marty Gulseth]

Kudos to you for just giving it a try, and especially for posting this to encourage those of us who haven't yet taken the first step. Thanks!

Regards, Marty

[Dave Anderson NH]

I know of no one who made fantastic dovetails the first time. Practice will get you where you want to be and it looks to me like you're on your way. Go slow, the speed will come along on its own later.

[John Coloccia]

a coping saw, dozuki, and a couple of Lee Valley marking gauges.

I'd say that if you didn't need to resort to a dovetail hammer, you're doing pretty good for a first attempt :)

[Zach Dillinger]

I'm thankful that I didn't have a digital camera when I cut my first dovetails. Kudos to you for your success. You got them together and might stay together over time. That's really all that matters. For the record, I agree with Dave Anderson... speed is very much a secondary consideration.... if you are enjoying yourself who the heck cares how long they take?

[Fidel Fernandez]

I am also learning, the best advice is learn with hardwoods.

I tried with poplar, but it is better with a hardwood. Get some soft maple, it is not expensive and it is hard enough.

The saw will work better, you will have a better feel with the chisel as well.

It will be harder, but the dovetails will look better. The hardwood will help prevent the saw and chisel to wander too much up to a point.

[Jim Koepke]

It is a sign of courage to show one's first dovetails in public.

Mine were not that good the first time.

For practicing I would cut the tails off and start over on the same pieces of wood. At one time my practice cuts were numbered to track progress.

Tails first or pins first doesn't really matter. What matters is identifying errors and their causes.

My biggest revelation was sawing to the line and not through the line. This coupled with remembering to saw on the waste side of lines marked from the first piece cut. If the top edge of a pin is marked with a knife against the side of a tail, the line is in material to be saved to make a tight joint. Same is true if the sides of the tails are marked with the pin board as a guide.

After trying to use pull saws for a while my results were improved by going back to western saws.

My attempts at using a coping or fret saw to remove waste have not been any faster than chopping out the waste with a chisel.

My current projects using dovetails are not perfect, but they are much better than when my first attempts.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

"Ok, it's awful but it'll get better. Someday my dovetails will be good enough to go into Derek Cohen's burn pile!"

Yup, same thing I aspire to!

Keep on truckin', Brother. If it can get easier for me, it can get easier for anyone.

[Joe Tilson]

I will be making my first hand made dove tails soon and will let you know how they turn out. That's not really bad for a first time. I ask my football coach how to get better at the game; he said, Practice, practice, practice, that's how. You will get better. All the best.

[Mike Henderson]

If you can find someone who is skilled in making hand cut dovetails and they will work with you, you'll probably pick up some good tips.

Reminds me of the story of the guy in New York who was lost. He runs up to a drunken bum and says, "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?"
The bum tries to focus his eyes, looks up at the guy and says, "Practice, man, Practice!"

Mike

[Pat Barry]

All those joints need a just a bit of cleanup and they will be perfect.

[Brian Holcombe]

IMO; Take the joint back apart (it does not appear to be glued).

Take a perfectly square board clamp it up along the baseline and pare everything that is over the baseline. Do this from the outside edge in, then reassemble the joint.

[David Ragan]

I salute you laying bare your work.... In order to get help, other folks need to know where we are

You sure they your *first* try?

[Frederick Skelly]

I too numbered my practice joints to track progress. Im to the point where mine are "decent", meaning that I can use them on actual projects. Yours look fine for a first attempt - certainly no worse than mine was!

You will find it becomes addicting. Theres a deep satisfaction in doing it by hand.

Id encourage you to watch a variety of videos to see different techniques. I switched from coping out the waste to chiseling it out and, for me, it results in a better joint. Surprisingly, it is quicker than youd think. But Im not anywhere close to a 3 minute dovetail like Frank and dont ever expect to be.

Enjoy the journey. It IS worth the time and effort, from what Ive seen so far.
Fred

[David Dalzell]

I don't remember what my first set of dovetails looked. But I have heard that truly horrifying experiences tend to get blocked out of ones memory.

[Brett Robson]

I've cut a lot of dovetails and from time to time, still make some that look like that! Yours look much better than any of my early attempts!

[Bruce Haugen]

See, the difference between your first set and my first set was that the Tage Frid books came out when I did mine and he showed how to glue a sliver into my gigantic mistakes so they wouldn't look so bad. BTDT, got the t-shirt. Another difference was that there was no internet so I could offer my first attempts for public inspection.

[Jim Matthews]

Nothing wrong with your saw or chisel technique.
You've got no broken pins, or blown out chips.

You cut neatly to the lines, it's just one of them was
out of square.

FWIW - I use the board that will be fitted as my marking guide.
(As shown in John Bullar's excellent video, mentioned above.)


That way, if the board undulates a little - the corresponding mark should match.

I would guess that if you glued and clamped this attempt together,
it would be light-tight.

One last note - I switched to marking with a 'hooked' paring knife instead of pencil.
It makes registry of the chisel much easier.

[Shawn Pixley]

As all have said, we have been there with our first dovetails. I can now manage to make some decent looking ones, but I am not at all fast at it. And I need to keep an eye out for oversawing on the back line. A slight rabbet on the tails will keep the joint from being visible on the inside corner. Keep up the good work!

[Roy Lindberry]

This is how it starts for all of us...or at least for me. It has been a while since I put this post together, and I have improved much, but I once chronicled my dovetail journey:



My first attempts were far worse than anything here, but have been thrown away, so I don’t have pictures. I think the most heinous ones went into the wood stove. I figured that if I could get some heat out of them, they would at least be good for something. It wasn’t until my fifth or sixth joint that it occurred to me to start keeping them to study and learn from, though I didn’t date them, but just threw them in a box. Even so, there is a definite progression in quality from the first to last, though I can’t say for sure that these are in the actual order, but they are certainly close.

Let’s start here.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/lihptib.jpg
and we’ll go from there:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/lihpuzb.jpg
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/lihpvmg.jpg
and the same one from the other side:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/lihpyuu.jpg
There are some gaps in these that are far bigger than what the camera shows, but they are getting better. This might be the point where I got the Veritas fine tooth dovetail saw. I wish I could be sure, but I didn’t really keep track of when these joints were cut. I do know there was an immediate and marked improvement in my dovetails when I got a good dovetail saw.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/lihpx25.jpg
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/lihpzw4.jpg
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And finally we are getting to some of the better ones, though they still aren’t great. As you can see throughout, I’ve had problems with the half pins splitting out, because the joint is too tight, and I always try to assemble to the saw cut rather than doing a bunch of paring. I have gotten better at this, and it has forced me to hone my sawing skills.
ihttps://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/lihq2rq.jpg
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/lihq6fe.jpg
After all of this, I decided to try half blinds. These are my first and only ones that I have done.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/lihq7rb.jpg
And even though I still have a ton of room for improvement, I have finally gotten to the point where I am willing to use hand cut dovetails on actual projects, and not just practice joints.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lumberjocks.com/lihqbb4.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

None of my dovetails have been with skinny pins…

Heck some of my gaps are bigger than some of those pins.

jtk

[Edward Clarke]

Ok, I haven't given up - here's a few pictures of my second attempt. This attempt was after watching the first half of Lonnie Bird's Dovetail DVD again to refresh my memory. Turns out that I was confusing steps from this DVD and from Jim Kingshott's DVD while leaving out important steps from each. Observe -

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Now the first picture is what happened when I used Bird's "move the chisel forward a bit to undercut" technique. It did ok to start but ripped out chunks in the middle - sort of like chopping a mortise would. I suspect that the thickness of the wood (about 3/4) has a lot to do with this. The last picture shows the final result. As you can see, I didn't have the two boards lined up correctly when I marked them. Which brings me to the next needed improvement - better light. If you can't see the lines that you're supposed to be following then you're not going to be successful.

[Jim Matthews]

Which brings me to the next needed improvement - better light. If you can't see the lines that you're supposed to be following then you're not going to be successful.


You're WAY ahead of the game. It took me three years to figure that out.
I find two things make for better dovetails - there's an ideal position for
me to hold the saw, to make cuts vertical - and perpendicular to the baseline.

To reach that position, I can't stand too close - my arm must be extended,
more than 90 degrees. I like it just about chest high.

To saw in that position, I need a shop light that allows me to stand some
distance away, and still see the line.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/led-workbench-light

[Jim Koepke]

Now the first picture is what happened when I used Bird's "move the chisel forward a bit to undercut" technique. It did ok to start but ripped out chunks in the middle - sort of like chopping a mortise would. I suspect that the thickness of the wood (about 3/4) has a lot to do with this.

Moving the chisel forward a bit is also good to keep the chisel from wedging back to or past the base line. Starting from the outside or show faces helps to prevent the chip out seen along your base line. After a few light taps across the waste the waste is pared out making a V into the wood. This is continued for about a quarter inch of depth. This leaves a support for the rest of the waste when the piece is flipped and cut from the other side. When the chisel comes through, there should be just a little left to pare away. If you use a sharp chisel, the wood shouldn't break out in the middle.



The last picture shows the final result. As you can see, I didn't have the two boards lined up correctly when I marked them. Which brings me to the next needed improvement - better light. If you can't see the lines that you're supposed to be following then you're not going to be successful.

Good lighting is always a help.

For marking the second cut, there are a few things that can help. This is for tails first cutting. If the pins are cut first there is a different way to accomplish the same kind of guides. The pin board is set in a vise and is set flush to a piece of wood or other object to support the tail board. A block of wood is then held against the side of the pin board and the tail board is set against this. I tend to check the square about six ways to Sunday at this point. When everything seems right, a marking knife is used to mark the lines.

My tendency is to cut tails first. Then they are checked for square and pared to perfection as needed before marking the pins. After the pins are cut and chopped, if any paring is needed it is only done to the pins.

jtk

[Edward Clarke]

Ok, here's a question for you experts. The undercutting method that Lonnie Bird recommends is specifically recommended against by Jim Kingshott. Kingshott agrees that it will look good, but says that the final strength of the joint will be much less and apparently there was a fine involved for apprentices that did it in the old days.

So ... yes or no? Kingshott pares slowly to the line ( his example was a half blind dovetail though ) while Bird does the undercut. I don't mind doing either but I don't want to mix the two techniques until I get a lot better.

[Jim Koepke]

Glues like Tightbond or Elmer's do not hold well across gaps.

For me it is just as easy to pare the end grain flat.

Though at times when it is cold in the shop if an item is for my own use it doesn't get glued. A drawer on one of my benches was made during the cold season in 2013 and wasn't glued. It is still being held together just by the friction of the joints.

Recently a cabinet made for my wife wasn't glued. She painted it and hung it up before it was glued. If it is something that is going to be sold or given to someone else, it will be glued before leaving my shop.

jtk

[Shawn Pixley]

So I can't speak to either of those authors you cited but I understand and have evaluated each concept (by me and for me). I have chopped and undercut like you. But I found for me, that getting the waste where I am taking paring slices, I don't get the tearout nor risk blowing through the other side. My way may not be your way.

I hope you don't take offense as none is intended. But, just looking at your pictures, I would offer that your chisel could be sharper for that soft end grain.

[Edward Clarke]

I hope you don't take offense as none is intended. But, just looking at your pictures, I would offer that your chisel could be sharper for that soft end grain.

Well, I was thinking that too, but on the tail piece I got nice very fine and smooth parings on the two outside edge cuts. These were NOT pounded down with a mallet but rather pared to the line carefully. On the other hand, sharpening never hurts (unless you do it badly). I'll see what I can do on the next set tomorrow.

[Thomas L. Miller]

Edward,
I commend your efforts. One thing (other than practice and more practice) I learned was to make a shooting board and use a jack plane to shoot the ends and edges of the mating boards. It makes life so much easier when everything is square and flat to start with, even for practice. The marks from a knife will also show up better on end grain that has been "shot". It was in practicing and learning to cut dove tails that I learned the value of really getting sharpening worked out. Today, I'm really glad I stuck with the effort and didn't give up. You'll do fine. Just keep a supply of band aids handy for when you start using really sharp tools. I was amazed at how many of my practice pieces were blood stained at first.
Good Luck,
Tom

[Brian Holcombe]

Ok, here's a question for you experts. The undercutting method that Lonnie Bird recommends is specifically recommended against by Jim Kingshott. Kingshott agrees that it will look good, but says that the final strength of the joint will be much less and apparently there was a fine involved for apprentices that did it in the old days.

So ... yes or no? Kingshott pares slowly to the line ( his example was a half blind dovetail though ) while Bird does the undercut. I don't mind doing either but I don't want to mix the two techniques until I get a lot better.

I undercut on occasion, but it depends on the purpose of the joint and also the size. I also leave a significant land so that the joint has a solid point of contact.

Knife-edge style undercutting will make a nice looking, but not very well functioning joint. Given the choice I'd take a slightly heavier looking glue line, but better functioning joint. The knife edge will crush slightly and will indent the side grain slightly. Now if the joint is worked overtime it's going to become loose quicker than a joint with a significant land.

[paul cottingham]

You know what? If you add glue, and they hold together, they are a good joint. What they look like is completely secondary. As a bonus, they look pretty damn good.
Good stuff!

[Mike Henderson]

Ok, here's a question for you experts. The undercutting method that Lonnie Bird recommends is specifically recommended against by Jim Kingshott. Kingshott agrees that it will look good, but says that the final strength of the joint will be much less and apparently there was a fine involved for apprentices that did it in the old days.

So ... yes or no? Kingshott pares slowly to the line ( his example was a half blind dovetail though ) while Bird does the undercut. I don't mind doing either but I don't want to mix the two techniques until I get a lot better.
People often undercut the end grain part of the joint since it doesn't contribute much strength and a belly there will keep the two pieces of wood apart. Undercutting on the tails, for example, will decrease strength.

Mike

[Richard Hutchings]

Edward,
Just keep a supply of band aids handy for when you start using really sharp tools. I was amazed at how many of my practice pieces were blood stained at first.
Good Luck,
Tom
:rolleyes: I still haven't put a box in my shop. I just grab the nearest dirty rag and apply pressure while I continue working.

[Thomas L. Miller]

You're right Richard. Done that too. I've used super glue, a paper towel and blue tape on the really nasty wounds. A physician friend saw me do that once and asked, "What were you; a combat medic in your past?" I told him no, and I promise to call you if I get a sucking chest wound. :)
Tom

[Tom Vanzant]

Tom Miller, I keep a roll of paper towels near my bench, and I'm familiar with the quickly rolled sheet, wrap and blue tape routine. I have fond memories of SFC Perez-Valle teaching us how to deal with a "socking chest wound". LOL. Don't forget to use your cigarette pack cellophane wrapper...

[Tony Wilkins]

From my combat life saver training manual: rub some dirt on it.

Becksvoort shows using a vertical 'light tap' to get a square shoulder before hitting more heavily at a slight angle for an undercut.

[Derek Arita]

OK...you forced me to do this...I'm just starting out with DTs myself. I've posted that I had problems, but chickened out of posting pics, but now, you've shamed me into doing it. So if you start to feel bad about yours, just take a look at mine. I just switched from a pull saw to a good DT saw and am in the process of learning to sharpen my chisels. I know with practice, we'll both improve...so they say...http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/derekarita1/P1010302_zps3e26878a.jpg (http://s63.photobucket.com/user/derekarita1/media/P1010302_zps3e26878a.jpg.html)http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/derekarita1/P1010303_zpsc68e9954.jpg (http://s63.photobucket.com/user/derekarita1/media/P1010303_zpsc68e9954.jpg.html)

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Derek, I have two primary thoughts when I look at your dovetails.

In picture 1, look at the bottom pin, (top pin in picture 2). The pin does not come far enough forward. For me, this usually means that there is still "stuff" in between the tails that are preventing the tails from being pounded (umm, I mean pushed) in. Sometimes the problem is in the corners, if this is the case then you will see a clear gap yet it will still bind. It is also possible that there is something that the pin is hitting as you are pushing it in place, which would mean the bottoms or corners of your tail board.

For my second thought, I am assuming that you did mark accurately. I have no idea if that is correct, but, I will assume it. Can you cut (saw) to the line? One primary problem to over-come is cutting to a line. For practice, take a board and draw lines to practice cutting on the board. I usually mark the top and one side of the board with a bunch of lines. If you want to be certain that you are sawing perpendicular to the board face, mark the back face and the front face. In case it is not clear what I mean, I can take some pictures if you want, but, the idea is that I end up essentially cutting a feather board by hand. Perhaps I mark lines every 1/4". So, if I have a board with say 15 marked lines, (for a rip cut, not crosscut), Make 5 cuts that follow the line on the left of the line (it should leave the line and follow it exactly), then 5 cuts that split the line (and remove it) and 5 cuts on the right side of the line (touching the line but leaving the line). In my opinion, this is probably the hardest part and cutting 100 practice cuts is not unreasonable.

I cut my tails first (not that it matters), but, think about what it means if I then mark my pins. Where do I want the saw to cut? Assume for a moment that I marked with a pencil. If I cut out that pencil mark, then I removed too much wood because the pencil mark would show. If I mark with a knife, then I should be cutting right along that knife line, but, what side of the knife line? The knife line on the left side, I should cut on the right and the knife line on the right side I should cut on the left.

There is, of course, always an issue with making straight cuts. I sometimes cut my tails so that the face is not perfectly flat (I waver a bit when I cut them). The saw, of course, will cut a straight edge on the pin (oops). I mean, it may waver as I go down, but the blade is straight so if there are waves as you cut down, that is a problem.

Assuming you can cut to the line, and figure out where to make that cut, then, for me, my biggest errors are usually my taking too much out when paring trying to figure out which part of the joint is too tight. I sometimes deal with this by using a soft pencil and marking the edges of pins and then I can see where pencil is showing on my tails. It can provide insight into what part is catching. Also, as long as you pare INSIDE the joint away from the edges, you can still have a tight looking joint. If you take too much off, that will (of course) negatively affect the strength of the joint.