got new jointer plainer with rusted table / anti-kickback

[David T gray]

the table rust is cosmetic and the anitkick fingers is pitted but also doesn't effect the working of the machine. to what extend do you guys think i should complain and or ask for some sort of compensation . not much fun packing a rusted machine .

[John Donhowe]

Is this "new" as in new to you, or brand new, never been used. Also, who did you buy it from- off CL (private party), or store? You'd have better luck with the latter.

I think it's worth probing for some discount on the price. If from a private party, and you've already made the deal, you're probably out of luck, though, esp. if you noticed the rust when you agreed on the deal. Usually these are as-is, all sales final.

If the rust was hidden in packaging, and from a store or shipped, you might claim that it was not as advertised, and you expect a pristine replacement- with return of defective (rusty) product at their expense- may not work- or reluctantly (as a compromise) be willing to accept some other compensation (discount) and keep the jointer. After all, it may not be all cosmetic- how do you know, for example, that there isn't rust in the cutter head or bearings.

[David T gray]

it is brand new from manufacturer

[Rod Sheridan]

it is brand new from manufacturer

Then I would expect a new condition machine, or financial compensation for the difference.

If it was me, I would want a new machine because everytime I looked at the cosmetic defect for the next 20 years I would regret not returning it.......Regards, Rod.

[Randy Red Bemont]

I would be on the phone with them right now and have them send me out a new non-rusted jointer/planer today. Plus a shipping label to return the rusted machine at their expense. You don't know how far into the jointer/planer the rust has gone and what other damage it may have caused. You paid enough for a new machine, you want a new machine.

Red

[cody michael]

I would be on the phone with them right now and have them send me out a new non-rusted jointer/planer today. Plus a shipping label to return the rusted machine at their expense. You don't know how far into the jointer/planer the rust has gone and what other damage it may have caused. You paid enough for a new machine, you want a new machine.

Red

I agree unless they gave me a big enough discount to make it like I bought a used machine.

[Peter Quinn]

I'd take pics, inform them of the situation and start negotiating. No reason to pay the new price for a machine that drives rusted. It is not the inevitable consequence of shipping, its the result of neglect, and not yours. New machine, some sort of discount, additional equipment or credit towards such, figure out what your ideal arrangement would be and work toward that. If replacement is really what you want then push for that and stand firm, if you are flexible and can live with the defects for the right price, time to negotiate!

[Brian Henderson]

If I paid for a brand new machine, I'd expect a brand new machine. If you're willing to live with the defects, call them and demand a discount, otherwise tell them to come get it and give your money back. It is their problem, make them deal with it.

[David Kumm]

There is a difference between surface rust on the tables and rust that gets on all the internal metal, gears, chains, cutterhead, etc. The latter is bad because the bearings could also be compromised enough to prematurely fail. Rust on the table only is no big deal. Dave

[David T gray]

this is <$5000 machine i bought three machines for over 21k at the same time . interesting day called up to talk to the project manager which offered me about $18 worth in value, going on and on that its just surface rust and the machine is in working order which it is i don't deny that fact, so i told him that if that's all that it is he wouldn't have a problem with naming his company and posting good pics of the rust to this forum and allow people to make their own decision if they want to deal with said company after seeing my forum post that would be up to them , after this the mood of the conversation completely changed he started almost yelling it was clipping the speaker on the phone so very loud and saying that i was threatening him and his company and was very angry that i had said this and absolutely refused to replace machine under any circumstance and said i can ship it back at my expense for a refund. i should mention the bandsaw was broke in shipping which they are replacing. i was open to some form of negotiation on the matter of the j/p but now .... idk . dealing with someone who lacks professionalism to stay calm in such a situation makes u wonder about said company as a whole. makes me want to go rent a trailer and drive 14 hours and return all 3 machines in person.

[John TenEyck]

Call the president of the company - seriously. The project manager has no business being in that position if that's how he treats people who pay his salary - you, the customer. Tell the president the whole story. If it doesn't get resolved to your satisfaction - ship or take them all back and tell the world.

John

[Phil Thien]

Can you post pictures w/o divulging the manufacturer? Obscure anything that would tip us off.

[Brian Henderson]

Now I have no idea what company he's talking about, but if I ever had such an experience with a company, once it was resolved to my satisfaction, I'd still go out and make it all public. There is no excuse whatsoever for any company to behave in such a manner. The world deserves to know what the company they may be dealing with actually does. You paid for a brand new product, based on the description on their website. If you do not get it, the company is responsible to either make it right or return your money and pick up their merchandise on their own dime. If anyone ever threatened me with any of that, I'd inform them that I had been recording all of the conversations and I'd be only too happy to put it up on YouTube, as well as introduce it at trial if they insisted on suing you. Let's see how far they're willing to go to ruin their own reputation.

[glenn bradley]

Surface rust? Oh, that's OK; its just a little cancer. You're not feeling sick yet so it is all OK.

If the machine was packed / handled in a way that allowed rust to begin, there are too many areas that you cannot see what this exposure did to them. The shouting definitely calls for an esculation regardless of whether you accept the condition or not. I do not know how you came across and I too have been accused of being a bit 'direct' when I am being handed the soft soap. Regardless, this man's job is dealing with these sorts of things, not overreactingto them. JMHO.

[John Huds0n]

Now I have no idea what company he's talking about, but if I ever had such an experience with a company, once it was resolved to my satisfaction, I'd still go out and make it all public. There is no excuse whatsoever for any company to behave in such a manner. The world deserves to know what the company they may be dealing with actually does. You paid for a brand new product, based on the description on their website. If you do not get it, the company is responsible to either make it right or return your money and pick up their merchandise on their own dime. If anyone ever threatened me with any of that, I'd inform them that I had been recording all of the conversations and I'd be only too happy to put it up on YouTube, as well as introduce it at trial if they insisted on suing you. Let's see how far they're willing to go to ruin their own reputation.

Brian - I agree 100% with you on this.

I had a very similar problem with an expensive combination machine that I purchased primarily because of what I read about it on Saw Mill Creek... The situation eventually was resolved to my satisfaction - but every time I try to 'convey' my negative experience about the transaction and the company that was involved - my posts get deleted....

So basically it seems your really only hear one side of the story on this forum. I wish we could open a new thread on 'negative feedback' so we could all discuss the situation like mature adults.

[Jay Jolliffe]

HHUUUUMMMM I wonder what color the machine is....I think if you buy something brand new it should look it & not with rust on it.....After that conversation with the company rep he would already have them back...or they would be on their way.

[Scott Brandstetter]

I agree that this is totally unacceptable in every way. For the past 30 years I have been in the packaging business dealing with everyone from owners of companies to the hourly workers that ship out the products. I can tell you with 100% certainty that you would be doing a favor to the president, GM, VP, whoever it may be by bringing this issue up. Nowadays, the way business is, there is no room for error and margins are getting slimmer and slimmer. I would be shocked if after your call you weren't satisfied completely; I say this based on the assumption you would not have bought from them in the first place if you didn't think they were a reputable company and had good products.

Obviously, there are many ways to say the same thing. I would be professional and deal with the facts. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

If the machine is new, have you contacted the company to allow them the opportunity to resolve the issue?

Contrary to what some members want to believe, you can post about new machine problems here at SMC. It's only fair that, however, that you first try to allow the company to provide a resolution.

When you post about your current problem, you should provide factual supporting data pertinent to the current problem.

We just don't allow piling on or threads to become emotional rants. Nobody, including potential new customers, gains any useful knowledge from such threads.

Contact the company and give them an opportunity to give you a reasonable resolution.

[Phil Thien]

HHUUUUMMMM I wonder what color the machine is....I think if you buy something brand new it should look it & not with rust on it.....After that conversation with the company rep he would already have them back...or they would be on their way.

I don't disagree, so please don't take this the wrong way. BUT, we're not trading in cars or patio sets or notebook computers. These tools typically have large iron surfaces that are rust magnets. I can't imagine what a PITA it must be to keep a warehouse full of this stuff rust-free.

I think we have to make allowances for some rust on unfinished surfaces while a tool sits in a manufacturer's inventory. I mean, if we're going to say that rust on a jointer bed means the jointer can no longer be sold as new, then we can all expect to pay a ton more for stuff.

[John Huds0n]

If the machine is new, have you contacted the company to allow them the opportunity to resolve the issue?

Contrary to what some members want to believe, you can post about new machine problems here at SMC. It's only fair that, however, that you first try to allow the company to provide a resolution.

When you post about your current problem, you should provide factual supporting data pertinent to the current problem.

We just don't allow piling on or threads to become emotional rants. Nobody, including potential new customers, gains any useful knowledge from such threads.

Contact the company and give them an opportunity to give you a reasonable resolution.

Ken - I have a question for YOU

When I read a post on SMC where someone is asking for opinions regarding a possible purchase of a machine they are interested in, how can I convey my negative experience about said machine/company/sales person in the appropriate rational manner and not have my comments or my post deleted? The problem was in fact resolved - but I see the salesman still making what I would call 'less than truthfull' statements and I believe he needs to be called out on it.

ps - they are not paid advertisers on this forum as far as I know

[John Huds0n]

I think we have to make allowances for some rust on unfinished surfaces while a tool sits in a manufacturer's inventory. I mean, if we're going to say that rust on a jointer bed means the jointer can no longer be sold as new, then we can all expect to pay a ton more for stuff.

Phil - do you let your tools sit around and get rusty?

Is it too much to expect a manufacturer to use something like cosmoline or boeshield? (I don't think so personally)

[Phil Thien]

Ken - I have a question for YOU

When I read a post on SMC where someone is asking for opinions regarding a possible purchase of a machine they are interested in, how can I convey my negative experience about said machine/company/sales person in the appropriate rational manner and not have my comments or my post deleted? The problem was in fact resolved - but I see the salesman still making what I would call 'less than truthfull' statements and I believe he needs to be called out on it.

ps - they are not paid advertisers on this forum as far as I know

I'm not Ken, but I'd strongly encourage you to simply use the post reporting feature and express your sentiments to the mods. If the post you're reporting seems to make claims too good to be true, they can edit the post, or ask the author to fix it themselves.

[Phil Thien]

Phil - do you let your tools sit around and get rusty?

Is it too much to expect a manufacturer to use something like cosmoline or boeshield? (I don't think so personally)

My point was, I don't have a warehouse full of tools to maintain. But yeah, I have allowed a cast iron contractor saw to get some rust. I cleaned it off and it was okay. It was delivered with some superficial rust that left the surfaces stained, I was okay with that because I had used tools in a school shop and they all had the same staining, I knew it was inevitable.

I understand your situation was different because parts were locked from the rust.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken - I have a question for YOU

When I read a post on SMC where someone is asking for opinions regarding a possible purchase of a machine they are interested in, how can I convey my negative experience about said machine/company/sales person in the appropriate rational manner and not have my comments or my post deleted? The problem was in fact resolved - but I see the salesman still making what I would call 'less than truthfull' statements and I believe he needs to be called out on it.

ps - they are not paid advertisers on this forum as far as I know

John,

Rather than kidnapping this thread, let's take this subject to the Off Topic thread and discuss it. I'll start a thread. Be aware, this is at my discretion and administration may decide they don't like it and move the thread out of public viewing.

[John Huds0n]

Ken - fair enough, thanks

Phil - hadn't thought of the "post reporting" feature, good idea

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John....I haven't forgotten you. My router went gunny just as I went to click "Submit".

I will start the thread and lock it until I have it completed so that I don't lose information incase the router goes bonkers again.

[David T gray]

yes im mostly leaving the name of said company out to keep such issues from arising in this thread, don't want fan boys coming in and getting emotional or turning this into x company is better then x company deal. but i am happy to read every ones unbiased opinions on the matter :) and i will for sure name this company once a resolution to the matter has been meet. i would post pics but its pretty easy to know who's machine it would be from looking at the cutter head. so ill report back Monday night if i have any news after calling.


If the machine is new, have you contacted the company to allow them the opportunity to resolve the issue?

Contrary to what some members want to believe, you can post about new machine problems here at SMC. It's only fair that, however, that you first try to allow the company to provide a resolution.

When you post about your current problem, you should provide factual supporting data pertinent to the current problem.

We just don't allow piling on or threads to become emotional rants. Nobody, including potential new customers, gains any useful knowledge from such threads.

Contact the company and give them an opportunity to give you a reasonable resolution.

[Scott Vigder]

makes me want to go rent a trailer and drive 14 hours and return all 3 machines in person.

I'll go with you

[Bill Graham]

i'll go with you

road trip!!! 😀

[David Kumm]

There is a difference between a poorly packaged crate that allows for rust everywhere and a damaged one that allows for the same. I'm assuming there was no delivery error here, just a lack of that crappy cosmoline that we all curse when we remove. Dave

[David T gray]

been so busy had to move my sister out of her house anyways here are pics of my brand new rusted minimax fs-41 there are also 4 3x4'' spots that had rust on them but i cleaned them when i got the machine so pre stained and pre rusted.



307190

[Art Mann]

I am not sure I understand this thread and the moderator's comments. Are we not supposed to post pictures or offer accurate but negative comments about new equipment?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I am not sure I understand this thread and the moderator's comments. Are we not supposed to post pictures or offer accurate but negative comments about new equipment?

Art,

You certainly can post pictures and offer accurate but negative comments about new equipment.

At the top of all the forums is an Announcement titled "Read Me First". Within that announcement is a section where Keith spells out the limitations of providing negative reviews:

Before You Rant Read This December 20th, 2010

"It is the intent of SMC to permit the airing of concerns regarding the suitability of a particular product, or the quality or sufficiency of customer service provided by a vendor in any particular instance provided there is not a breach of contract component involved.

However, these threads often deteriorate into a "piling on" and develop a very negative tone. That doesn't assist other viewers in assessing the overall advisability of whether to buy this particular product, nor to assess the overall customer service provided by that manufacturer/vendor.

In order to be fair to the many vendors that provide woodworking products, the following policies will be in force:
The original poster must have first contacted the manufacturer/vendor and have attempted a solution PRIOR to posting the thread.
The original poster should provide factual details of the problem, and details of efforts that have been made with the manufacturer/vendor to rectify the problem.
Subsequent posts must be limited to suggestions to the original poster to assist in rectifying the problem - not to pile on because you had similar problems.

SMC is a woodworking forum. The intended purpose is to provide a community in which useful information may be shared among the members. Threads that do not achieve that purpose will be locked, or removed if necessary." SawMill Creek is not a Court of Law and we are not in a position to judge a breach of contract case here, therefore SawMill Creek will not become a stage or a courtroom for a legal dispute between two or more parties, it just isn't our mission.


In fact, this very thread based on those criteria should not have been allowed because the OP hadn't talked with the manufacturer first.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David,

Have you contacted the manufacturer and maybe emailed them the photos?

[David T gray]

minimax doesn't care apparently i left msg with both president and cfoo neither have called back which has been over a week. they are also aware of this thread which i opened for the purpose for getting opinions on the matter since i was told by the sales guy (the one that yelled at me angry that i was threatening his company by posting such pictures), was told by him rust was a-ok in the industrial tool business and as long as it runs its all good with them. so in conclusion i have tried to talk to the manufacturer and gotten nothing in return but being yelled at and belittled for being a hobbyist, every time i use that tool i will open it up look inside and see that rust and think why did i buy minimax.

[Kent A Bathurst]

At the least, someone in the conversation does not have good bedside manners. Hopefully, the OP did not light the rocket fuse that excluded any possible resolution.

$21k for rusty machines would tend to stick in my craw, to be honest.

I would not be at all happy with machines at that level in the hierarchy that showed that amount of rust. I am by no means a machinery virgin - in fact, in my professional life, I have bought many used machines that had a lot of surface rust and other defects.

But I was not paying retail, and the project included budget $$ for qualified internal or external machinery maintenance guys to rehab to my standards. Some from close-to-new condition, some from "you bought WHAT???" condition. Always got what I expected to get. That ain't the same as store-bought stuff.

In the same capacity, I have also bought new stuff, from $20k to over 20x that amount. And - on those occasions where it showed up in less-than required condition, I had those same maint guys do their stuff, and charged it back, hour-for-hour, dollar-for-dollar. Didn't return it, because that made no sense from any angle - especially stuff that spent weeks in a crate on the Pacific coming from Taiwan. But, I got the machines right, and not on my dime.

I would be resolutely unimpressed, unexcited, and - to paraphrase Tom Petty - unwilling to back down. Unless, of course, there is more to the story...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvlTJrNJ5lA

[Art Mann]

Thanks for the explanation Ken. Makes perfect sense. I recall threads in the past where I thought the manufacturer was being unfairly criticized with no recourse. That is not meant as a comment on this particular thread, one way or the other.

[Mike Tekin]

Its OK if its a little surface rust but based on the pictures more is going on there...there are also two sides to every story but its not the first time I have read posts of MiniMax being condescending to its "hobbiest" potential or current customers.

Out of curiosity is it too much for a industrial machine company to check their machines before shipment when they are in this price range? Or is Minimax too small of a company within SCMI? It would avoid these situations.

I know Laguna and Felder do it on their high end stuff...

[Erik Loza]

Late to this discussion (wife and I have been on a live-aboard boat in the Galapagos Islands for the last 2 weeks; no contact with the outside world).

To the OP, I am not personally familiar with your situation but will say this: Assuming you dealt with my colleague, Sam, (since it wasn't me and he is the only other direct MM rep, so I am assuming it was him) I would be SHOCKED to learn that in fact, Sam "yelled" at or "belittled" anyone. This is a guy I sat across the desk from and have done many trade shows with since 2005. Obviously, that is just my opinion and again, it's third-person but I would be very surprised if that in fact, did happen.

Getting back to the rust-thing, if the extent of the issue is what is shown in the photo a few posts back, it is indeed cosmetic and surely nothing that a little elbow grease and a scotchbrite pad or a wire cup brush could not fix in 5 minutes. Maybe the OP already addressed this. Perhaps I missed that if so.

I feel like the real problem here is one of expectation, not one of a few rust spots on a machine. Are the machines working fine? I assume so. That does not seem to have been the complaint. I rarely have dissatisfied owners but do sometimes have owners where reality didn't jive with their expectations. For example, if a machine shows up at a commercial shop with some rust spots or scratches in the paint, they don't care. Why? Because their expectation is not one of cosmetics, it's one of performance. On the other hand, take a guy who lays out close to $4K for an MM16 bandsaw without ever laying eyes on one. Perhaps his expectation is that this (by his standards, and reasonably so...) very expensive bandsaw should have a flawless finish. Like getting a new car, right? Except that this is not an automobile, it's a piece of industrial woodworking machinery and as such, is treated by everyone from the assembly line to the shippers to the local freight company that delivers it like a piece of machinery, not a new car.

I will go on record as saying, for example, that no matter how much you pay or who you buy from in this segment of the market, issues like spots of light cosmetic rust or minor freight damage are unavoidable. 100% guaranteed. I worked for a competitor years ago with "green" machines that cost a lot more than Minimax and guess what? Happened with them, too. My advice to any prospective customer is be clear and realistic in your own expectations and ask your rep a lot of questions if you have a concern.

Again, I have no firsthand knowledge of the OP or his particular situation but if a customer asked me if they should expect their machine to arrive in cosmetically flawless condition (like a new car) my response would be that we cannot guarantee that (as could no other competitor) but that I could guarantee that we can and do every reasonable effort to ship machines to arrive as perfectly as possible and that we also will do our best to address any issues that come up as a result of that. And this has worked well for Minimax and for me, personally, with my owners.

Does that mean every customer will be totally happy? Perhaps not but then again, I don't think we are any worse than any other mfr. in this regard. Does this mean that the production line misses a few spots with oil or cosmoline from time to time? Sure, and I don't mean this to say an owner is not entitled to their concerns but I have been in literally hundreds of pro and hobby shops and am sure I could find plenty of light surface rust if I tried to. Does this mean a customer is entitled to entire replacement machine due to a few spots of rust on a unit they just delivered? I doubt there is any manufacturer of this level of machinery out there who would be willing to have that discussion.

I heard the saying once: "The customer is not always right but the customer always has a right to be heard". That makes a lot of sense to me. And I will say this to anyone, whether or not you bought your Minimax machine from me: I will gladly do my best to either help you or to get you pointed in the right direction if I can. PM or email me. I hope this makes sense.

Erik Loza
Minimax

[Steve Collins]

If one purchases a tool at a brick and mortar, would one expect to hear "some rust is ok" from them, Eric?

[David T gray]

wasn't sam it was dan johnson . also in your pdf that was sent to me with pictures of the j/p there is very clearly seen in the pictures it has some type of spring to assist in lifting the cast tables i assumed i would be getting the same j/p that was in the pdf or something close to this since there wasn't one close by to see in person or at least supplied a manual of the machine if you don't have the time to update your sales pdf.

[Jim Andrew]

One of these days the machine companies are going to start spraying a thin clear coating on the cast iron tables. Unheated storage in cold climate results in a little rust on bare machine surfaces. Hope you heat your shop.

[Erik Loza]

If one purchases a tool at a brick and mortar, would one expect to hear "some rust is ok" from them, Eric?

Kind of apples to oranges, Steve. In a brick-and-mortar place, there would be a rep like me who goes over each machine and makes it look as good as possible. I have done and continue to do that at trade shows or when we had the walk-in showroom here in TX but the reality is that 99% of our sales (and our competitors are no different in this regard...) ship directly to the customer without him or her ever seeing the machine in the first place. If, for example, I saw a machine that had some spots of light surface rust or perhaps some scratches in the paint, I would have buffed those out or touched that up long before any customer laid eyes on it. However, the reality is that we are actually talking about machines which are sitting in a barely climate controlled warehouse for long periods of time, then shipped by the least expensive common carrier we can find to the end user, and then opened for the first time since they got packed ont he assembly line. That is how this industry works.

Does that mean that the manufacturer thinks it's OK for a few spots of surface rust to be present? No, but then again, is is unreasonable to expect a customer to make the accomodation of spending a few minutes and some elbow grease to help fix something which in NO WAY affects the functionality of the machine? When I worked for a competitor who folks could call the "BMW of the industry", a gentleman asked me once if I could gaurantee that the machine would arrive flawlessly to his shop. My response was that I could put the machine on its very own truck, then have the company do "inside delivery", which means he would not have to lift a finger, then we could have a technician fly out there and do all the setup and make sure it was perfect in every way but the real question was, was he willing to pay for all that? He declined all of it and went with the standard delivery, like everyone does. And his machine arrived just fine.

Point being, anything is possible when you are willing to pay for it but be honest with yourself about your expectations and more inportantly, be clear to your sales rep and install tech about your concerns on the front end because, and though I might lose some business for saying this, I'll say it anyhow: If a person thinks that buying a piece of industrial ww'ing machinery will be the same type of experience as buying a new car, they will probably be disappointed. Everyone is entitled to their expectations but I will guarantee you that the rep (at least the Minimax rep...) you are talking knows that your machine is going to get full of sawdust real quick and have pieces of rough wood run over and through it many times a day. He knows that whetever "look" or "finish" the cast iron tables have when you get the machine will soon be gone and replaced with a dull, worn surface. Just like he knows that none of this affects functionality in any way, which he assumes you know as well.

Again, I hope this all makes sense.

Erik Loza
Minimax

[Frank Drew]

If I received a new chisel or a hand saw or a hand plane that was rusted I'd be a bit disappointed; if the rust on the machine in question is only cosmetic and would only take five minutes to eliminate, why couldn't the seller do that prior to shipping? Avoiding unhappy customers when it's so easy? Seems pretty obvious to me.

[Erik Loza]

If I received a new chisel or a hand saw or a hand plane that was rusted I'd be a bit disappointed; if the rust on the machine in question is only cosmetic and would only take five minutes to eliminate, why couldn't the seller do that prior to shipping? Avoiding unhappy customers when it's so easy? Seems pretty obvious to me.

Frank, I understand what you are saying but again, we are not talking about a tool you can pick up and inspect in yopur hand at the point of sale. This is big, complex piece of equipment that is packed in Italy, then not seen again by human eyes until the end user sees it when they de-crate it. And any machines at the level of Minimax are handled the exact same way. Unless the customer pays extra, which we already talked about. The production line is normally quite good about applying cosmoline where it needs to be but sometimes a spot gets missed or other times, it is factors that had nothing to with us at all.

True story: We received a container of bandsaws once that had quite a bit of rust on some of the exposed surfaces. To make a long story short, US Customs had stopped the container ship for some type of inspection and opened the conex container, which must have allowed a bunch of salty ocean air inside. We did not learn about any of the issues until customers reported it to us. Point being that anything is possible.

Getting back to your analogy about the hand plane, let's put this into perspective: If the amount of "rust" (and I call it that with quotations because it's barely anything at all; at least the photo that has been provided by the OP...) was proportional on a hand plane to the level we have been shown on this FS41, then how much "rust" would we be talking about? Maybe the size of a period on this page and something you could wipe off with a piece of steel wool?

Erik Loza

[Wade Lippman]

On the one hand, a rusty $5,000 machine is unacceptable. I have had a number of cosmetically challenged parts replaced.

On the other hand, we haven't seen any pictures of rust. The only posted picture looked fine.

On the third hand, I spent years in customer service. I got several calls a week from people who didn't bother to drill pilot holes and then wanted me to pay then hundreds of dollars compensation because they twisted the heads off brass screws. I can sympathize with guy who yelled at the OP if there was not really anything wrong; might have been his third call that day like that. (when people demanded to speak to my superior, I put them on hold and then just abandoned it.)

And finally, the SMC policy is entirely reasonable.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I have no skin in this game, so I thought about not posting anything... but what the heck... I'll follow Wade's "on the one hand" format.

On the one hand, what Erik is saying is totally reasonable. From what we see in this thread, that machine looks totally fine and functional and IMO, the OP has pretty unreasonable expectations. That rust is literally nothing... But OP, please post more pictures if it's worse than what you sent. Some of my machines look worse than that, and I try to maintain them well...

Also, none of us know how the OP's interaction went with the MM guy. We are only hearing one side. Maybe the OP was hostile but due to his expectations, thought hostility was excusable behavior and expected the MM rep to be a punching bag. Lots of consumers don't see human beings on the other end of the phone. Maybe MM rep eventually cracked at under rudeness. Or maybe the OP was a perfect gentleman and the MM guy forgot to take his Xanax and was the problem. We do not know, so IMO, that piece of this discussion should be tabled. Screaming and yelling is inappropriate regardless of whether you're the customer or the rep, or whether you feel you've been mistreated. We're adults, not toddlers.

On the other hand... MM should understand that when they chose to go into business selling directly to consumers (DtoC), they entered a different ball game. Consumers are buying with pretty different motivations. There isn't a profit motive- this is purely a purchase for personal enjoyment. It's an emotional experience, and it's a lot of money that you can't write off on your taxes. Emotionally, it really is similar to buying a car for a consumer because it's an emotional decision. MM needs to undertsand that and approach their DtoC line of business with that mentality. So Erik, all due respect (and btw I love that you are chiming in here rather that doing the typical "veil of corporate silence" thing), your comparison to industry is unfair- you guys need to understand the fundamental difference between your consumer customers and your industry customers and treat them differently. It's just the way it is- it's not a "right or wrong" thing.

As a result, consumers cost more to deal with. You should build higher customer support costs into your direct-to-consumer pricing to protect your margins. I hate customer service so i can sympathize with having to deal with unreasonable people. That's why I work in an office. I would get fired on the first day of a CS job, which is why I chose not to go into that line of work! MM has chosen to enter this market, so this is what comes with it. It's a game of acting like you care about the customers emotions, ultimately because there is money in it for you via referral and repeat business. Should this guy get a full replacement at no cost? of course not- that would be bonkers given how minor this problem is. But how about sending him a set of new knives for his machine for free and a heart-felt apology? Doing so would have avoided this thread, which has perhaps done damage to your sales (impossible to know).

Look at Grizzly- yes, a totally different target customer than MM. They are known for low prices (and as a result, lesser, but generally passable quality) but amazing customer support, because they understand that consumers are a PITA. If they had low prices and customer support not built on an understanding of who the customer is and why he/she is buying, do you think they would be where they are now?

Anyway, my $.02, worth what you paid. ;)

[Erik Loza]

Peter, I agree with you that we should all be trying to satisfy ALL expectations of the customer and you are also correct: None of us (myself included) know precisely who or what got said between the OP and MM managment, so that doesn't really matter.

For anyone who is reading this, my best suggestion is to communicate as much as possible with your rep on the front end. I have not had many completely unsatisfied customers over the years but the ones I have, almost invariably if I go back and look, we never really spoke on the phone before the sale. They just gave me a credit card on the first call or it was string of emails that were more about negotiating a price or specs than, "Here are my expectations and plans. How would answer these?". What you can't get via email is a sense for what is important to the customerand in my experience, a two-way dialogue is what creates a happy customer. If I know what your concerns are, we can address them. But the reality is that customers "assume" some things and we reps "assume" other things and sometimes, that creates situations. Regrettably.

In the past, I have done things like comp customers some tooling or accessories for their time and trouble to fix cosmetic things like this or perhaps offer them a discount on future purchases. We work together and find a solution. I wish the OP would update us on how the machines are actually working out from a functionality standpoint.

Erik

[David Kumm]

The rust should have been WAY more severe than what showed in the picture to deserve this much press. Dave

[John Sanford]

been so busy had to move my sister out of her house anyways here are pics of my brand new rusted minimax fs-41 there are also 4 3x4'' spots that had rust on them but i cleaned them when i got the machine so pre stained and pre rusted.



307190

pshaw!! That's not rust. That's blood, from the gnome techs who checked it before shipping! :p

They were Greek gnomes. In Italy. Working on machinery.

[David T gray]

even if there was no rust i would still be upset the machine is not the same one that is viewed from your pdf i bought these tools for my father to be able to use there is no way at 77 years hes going to be able to open the table on the j/p without my help or without that spring.

[Wade Lippman]

even if there was no rust i would still be upset the machine is not the same one that is viewed from your pdf i bought these tools for my father to be able to use there is no way at 77 years hes going to be able to open the table on the j/p without my help or without that spring.

You don't mention it not being the machine you thought you were getting until post #41.

Actually I just watched the video and there do look to be springs on the jointer tables. Yours doesn't have that? Erik?!

[Erik Loza]

even if there was no rust i would still be pissed the machine is not the same one that is viewed from your pdf i bought these tools for my father to be able to use there is no way at 77 years hes going to be able to open the table on the j/p without my help or without that spring.

I actually talked to the US business unit manager about this particular point earlier today because I wanted to make sure there was not some change to the machine that I was unaware of, since we obviously don't want to be misinforming customers. There were one or two photos in the highlight brochure which showed the tables from an earlier FS35 Smart, which did indeed have the helper springs. I brought this to his attention and my understanding is that they are correcting it now. The machines that really do need the helper springs are the bigger and heavier FS41 Elite and the FS41 Elite-S, not the Classics.

Honestly, this is the first time in 10+ years of selling jointer/planers that I have ever heard a concern about being able to lift the tables. That's not to say your dad's concern isn't valid. Just that I have a number of owners his age and have never heard of that issue before.

Tell you what, David. You're in Austin, right? So am I. Why don't we set up a time where I can meet you and your dad at your shop? Then, he can show me what his concerns are in regards to operating the machine and I'll be glad to perhaps show him a better or easier way to operate it. Again, I have a number of owners at least his age that operate their machines just fine so perhaps it's just a methodology-thing. We can find out for sure and the get him using the machines like old hat. Would that help you?

Erik

[Erik Loza]

...Actually I just watched the video and there do look to be springs on the jointer tables. Yours doesn't have that? Erik?!

Wade, the only MM J/P's that have helper springs are the FS41 Elite and the FS41 Elite-S. Not the Classics. We did use helper springs on the older FS35's (no longer made) because they had a pretty heavy table for their size but not the current Classics. Again, I have never had a customer tell me in all these years that they "couldn't lift the tables" or anything to that effect, regardless of which machine it is. That would be pretty self-defeating if it was the case, LOL.

Erik

[Chris Padilla]

Tell you what, David. You're in Austin, right? So am I. Why don't we set up a time where I can meet you and your dad at your shop? Then, he can show me what his concerns are in regards to operating the machine and I'll be glad to perhaps show him a better or easier way to operate it. Again, I have a number of owners at least his age that operate their machines just fine so perhaps it's just a methodology-thing. We can find out for sure and the get him using the machines like old hat. Would that help you?

Erik

Outstanding.