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John Zimmerman
07-26-2005, 12:49 AM
Even though this is a woodworking forum, my short experience here tells me that the collective wisdom knows everything. We need a new vehicle, well actually two but that's another story. We've been trying to decide between a minivan and an SUV. Now here's where the woodworking twist comes in. Which ones will hold a 4x8 sheet of plywood totally enclosed?

Now it can't be too big and studly because it will be a family car for trips and things. Also, SWMBO says she can't climb into a big truck in a ladylike manner!

Any suggestions?

Please and thank you,
John Zimmerman

Dev Emch
07-26-2005, 1:13 AM
This is simple.

You need to get a diesel pickup truck. Personally I prefer the cummins dodge for its engine and the powerstroke for its truck so either one will work just fine. You may wish to get the crew cab option for family reasons and for trip reasons.

As for the lady, well, your going to need running boards. That also applies if you need to take care of an elderly member of the family such as mom or dad.

My dodge tips the scale at 6000 plus pounds but still gets at least 20 MPG on diesel or bean oil. I have had it loaded to 27,200 pounds gross with truck, cooler, trailer and a bullard turret lathe that weighs 14,000 pounds. I had to negotiate the Id/Wy passes and cut back through walden on camron pass. All mountain passes. The exhaust (mini jake) brake was houling like a stuck pig. I still got 11.5 MPG! For those who dont know this, a jake or mini-jake converts a diesel engine into a type of air compressor which slows you down. It saves wear on your main brakes. Jakes are in the head and mini-jakes are a type of butterfly valve just aft of the turbrocharger. Yes, I have a manual tranny as diesels eat autos for breakfest.

The truck does it all. Commutes to work, hauls lumber from various mom and pop operations, loves to pull my 24 foot gooseneck trailer, pulls my smaller trailer, can haul RVs for recreation use, makes short work out of any boat trailer, etc. etc. etc. And with the king cabs and crew cabs, it does everything that an SUV can do on top of everything just mentioned.

The rebuild interval for a cummins is averaging around 250,000 to 300,000 miles when you give it standard maintainance. There are no spark plugs. Mainly oil every 4000 to 7000 miles depending on tow use. Working on the cummins is stone cold easy. Everything was made to work on and you dont cut your knuckles or curse in front of your kids working on it. Ever change the last two spark plugs in a ford explorer?

Throw on a camper shell and you have a ready made SUV for recreation use.

Similar arguments can be made for the ford powerstroke. I have driven both and as mentioned currently own a dodge. After 168,000 miles, I have not had a single engine issue. Just changed oil and filters. The only thing I did notice when the odie turned 100,000 miles was that my MPG went up by about 2 to 3 MPG.

If your into hard core woodworking and you need to haul both tools and lumber around and your always building and improving stuff, (i.e. your the DIY mentality or a pro), you will find living without a pickup to be difficult.

Hope this helps.

If your looking for a used machine, well, I will sell mine when it clocks in 500,000 miles:D

Frank Hagan
07-26-2005, 1:18 AM
I don't think any of the non-humongous ones will hold a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood completely inside. I know the mini vans won't ... you either have to have the back open for it to protrude out, or have it pushed over your head and you crouched down.

Most of the compact pickups or "SUT" type vehicles like the Ford Explorer Sporttrac or Avalanch will hold plywood in the beds. I have a Sporttrac and like it ... I flip out the cage, slide in the plywood and run a line around the end of the ply just in case. It does ride a bit like a truck, though, not like one of those girly mini vans (private joke ... my wife is driving the Sporttrac because she has the shorter commute, and it gets only 17 mpg ... I'm driving the mini van that gets 22).

Pat Monahan
07-26-2005, 2:50 AM
John
I have a Dodge Grand Caravan and I can get a 4 x 8 sheet of drywall inside with everything closed. Just took out the seats and put it on the floor. I had to move the drivers seat up a notch or two to get the drywall off the trim piece at the liftgate - I didn't want one good pothole to crack the drywall. That might not be an issue with plywood. Your best bet is to go vehicle shopping with a tape measure. Sure, the salesperson will look at you like you're nuts, but that's half the fun.
HTH
Pat

Hoa Dinh
07-26-2005, 2:57 AM
I don't think any of the non-humongous ones will hold a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood completely inside. I know the mini vans won't ...

I don't know if a Honda Odyssey is qualified as "humongous," but mine can carry 4X8 plywood sheets with the gate fully closed. Of course the back "magic" seat has to be folded down in the well and the middle captain seats have to be removed.

With all the seats up, the Odyssey can carry a few 10' long and a few 8' long 2"X lumber.

For a family vehicle, nothing beats the convenience and the comfort of a minivan.

SUVs, by design, are not as space-efficient nor as comfortable.

Doug Jones
07-26-2005, 4:29 AM
It may not hold a full sheet of plywood,,, but I got to put the Subaru Tribeca out there as a choice.

Donnie Raines
07-26-2005, 8:33 AM
I had a Dodge Caravan Sport that would hold a sheet of plywood...the only hitch was you has to tilt your head to the side when you drove...but it did fit(2-3 sheets actually).

We have a SUV now and love it. I also have a truck so wood never sees the SUV.... :cool:

Per Swenson
07-26-2005, 9:02 AM
John,

Life is full of compromises and this is the time

to use them to your advantage.

Get whatever vehicle makes her happy.

Even if its a lime green Mini Cooper.

Then because you are so thoughtful in

considering her needs and wants,

no static will arise when you come home with any mid 90s

full sized pick up truck.

Just a thought.

Per

Bob Winkler
07-26-2005, 9:28 AM
For long trips and normal all around use, nothing beats the minivan. I have the Dodge Grand Caravan Sport, and I've hauled sheetrock, full-size plywood sheets, 10' 2x6s, etc. during all kinds of weather with the back door closed. In addition, I can haul 7 people comfortably (I usually put the mother-in-law in the way back seat). It's the versatility I love- including holding two kayaks on the roof, while getting 24 mpg.

BTW, because of the years I was stigmatized for driving a minivan, I DID go out and get a MINI Cooper.:o But, believe it or not, I still prefer the ride, comfort, and do anything attitude of my mini van.

Bob

Jeff A. Smith
07-26-2005, 9:32 AM
I had a Grand Caravan that was an excellent family vehicle and would haul (fully enclosed) a 4x8 sheet of plywood with the seats folded down. I'm not sure about the new ones, but I can't believe they've done anything but improve them. Mine was a '96. No seat removal necessary. Excellent choice, and will pull a light trailer if necessary.

Jeff Smith
Athens, AL

JayStPeter
07-26-2005, 9:33 AM
I vote minivan. I have a pickup, so the minivan is more a family hauler than wood hauler. But, it has been called into service on the occasional rainy day. I have to remove all 4 back seats from our Town & Country to fit plywood, but the newer ones all seem to have better folding seat setups.
Fitting a full sheet of ply was one of my criteria when buying the minivan. Most of the newer ones do. I test drove them back to the house and loaded one in :).
The minivan drives more like a car than the SUVs we compared. Plus loading and unloading both the kids and cargo is easier with the lower floor and auto doors. The SUVs look better, have all weather/off-road ability, and can be had more luxurious than minivans.

Jay

Mike Weaver
07-26-2005, 9:46 AM
I don't think any of the non-humongous ones will hold a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood completely inside. I know the mini vans won't ... you either have to have the back open for it to protrude out, or have it pushed over your head and you crouched down.


My '04 Toyota Sienna will...

The *only* shortcoming I've found with having a minivan versus an SUV is in towing capacity.

As a family vehicle, a minivan can't be beat, IMHO.

Good luck & get whichever you want - don't let us confuse you. <img>

Cheers,
-Mike

Lee DeRaud
07-26-2005, 10:12 AM
The only thing I did notice when the odie turned 100,000 miles was that my MPG went up by about 2 to 3 MPG.Takes awhile to break in, does it? :cool:

Steve Jenkins
07-26-2005, 10:13 AM
years ago I had a dodge minivan with a towing package and heavy duty suspension. It was rated as a 1 ton. There were many days I carried around 1500 lbs or so of mdf in full sheets with the doors all closed.
I'd vote for the minivan and look into a suspension and towing package if that is what you need.

chris toomey
07-26-2005, 10:37 AM
i have a chrysler town and country....it hauls 4x8 plywood no problem. taking the seats out is a pain...but it works. just bought a beater truck to spare the van....but i have hauled in vans for years.....

Jim O'Dell
07-26-2005, 10:55 AM
John
Your best bet is to go vehicle shopping with a tape measure. Sure, the salesperson will look at you like you're nuts, but that's half the fun.
HTH
Pat

Even more fun is to measure for dog crates!! Or better yet, ask how many 400 series wire crates it will hold.
My 94 Grand Caravan did just fine hauling full sheets. But my 02 Ford E250 extended handles it better, as long as I take the dog crates out first! Jim.

Chris Christopher
07-26-2005, 10:57 AM
LOML and I just went thru same decision tree --We are driving a mini van - 05 Toyota Sienna -- 4x8 sheets fit in no problem -- Use the pickup for the "dirty" stuff -- Van is the way to go --

Barry Beech
07-26-2005, 11:05 AM
I have a GMC Yukon XL, and where it definitely qualifies as a big honking SUV, I absolutely love it. It is our family car and my hauling vehicle. I can get about 10 or more 4x8 sheets of plywood in it with ease. I've also had about 400bft of walnut and poplar in the back. It has 2nd row captains chairs and a 3rd row seat so it will easily hold 6 but I've had more in it. My 16mth old daughter and my LOML absolutely love the DVD player in the back. Really helps on long trips. The window says that it gets 14 / 19 mpg, but I really don't push it in the city and I get about 16. On the highway if I keep it around 70 I get 19-20mpg.

If I need to put a trailer behind it, there are no problems. It has a towing capacity of around 8000-9000 lbs. It will pull our boat like nothing is there.

Either way you will be happy. Drive both, let your wife drive both and you can both decide. :D

Mark Singer
07-26-2005, 11:28 AM
I am very happy with our Toureg....great power , comfort and amenities at a reasonable price!

Ellen Benkin
07-26-2005, 11:50 AM
I'm an old fashioned station wagon person. My Subaru Outback is wide enough for a 4x8 sheet to fit in but it does stick out the back -- not a big problem as I see it. And my two labrador retreivers love the room to roam in the back (without the plywood, of course). Also, I can get 10' long lumber in diagonally from front window to back window. It is one of the safest cars made. That said, they may have changed the dimensions and specs since my '98 was made.

Ed Lang
07-26-2005, 12:08 PM
Now it can't be too big and studly because it will be a family car for trips and things. Also, SWMBO says she can't climb into a big truck in a ladylike manner!

Any suggestions?


Big truck, crew cab for kids etc, camper shell to keep the ply dry and make step stool for her like the railroads use. You can then open the door and place the stool for her. Might make buying tools easy too!

Lee Schierer
07-26-2005, 12:20 PM
How many times will you actually be hauling plywood home as compared with all the other driving you will do. Why not get a smalle more fuel efficient vehicle and get a towing package for pulling a small trailer. You can easily get a trailer for plywood hauling for a fraction of what you'll pay for the LARGE SUV or mini van to start with and the added maintainence costs associated with them.

You can get out the door in a Mazda Tribute for under $23,000 and it will pull 3,000 pounds. It als gets 25+ mpg and rides like a car. Once your significant other drives one you'll be sold.

Steven Wilson
07-26-2005, 12:21 PM
I have a 1999 GMC Suburban. I bought the Suburban because it can handle 4x8 sheets of plywood. It works great towing the boat and for flyfishing I can keep fully rigged 9' fly fishing rods suspended from the ceiling while I dash between access points. The only thing I would consider replacing my Suburban with would be a GMC K3500, diesel, crew cab, long bed dually pickup but then I would need a cover for transporting plywood. But then again I could have a camper on and tow the boat.

Gail O'Rourke
07-26-2005, 12:29 PM
I drive a ford f150 super crew....full size back seat, 5 1/2' bed but with a bed extender...

I have three kids and they have plenty of room, as well as bench in the front for two more.

I was going to get the Expedition but looking at the price the F150 was way less.

I love it.

Ed Blough
07-26-2005, 12:47 PM
I had a Grand Caravan that was an excellent family vehicle and would haul (fully enclosed) a 4x8 sheet of plywood with the seats folded down. I'm not sure about the new ones, but I can't believe they've done anything but improve them. Mine was a '96. No seat removal necessary. Excellent choice, and will pull a light trailer if necessary.

Jeff Smith
Athens, AL


Let me assure you they didn't improve everything. I could easily fit in 2000 and older Chrysler products but for 2001 and up my head hits everything in the van. In fact I had to buy a used 2000 Town and Country instead of new because of this. After 5 Chrysler product vans (both dodge caravan and town and countrys) my next van will have to be to another manufacture.

The moved the driver side siding door top hinge forward so it hits the back of my head. Then they curved the roof more so I hit my head on the side. Then they moved the side pillar in or the seat over so my shoulder is resting on it. Plus I can just barely duck my head enough to get it in the door opening. Yet in a 2000 or older I have more than enough room all around.
I wrote to Chrysler about this and their answer was a very pleasant, "go get a life were selling thousands we don't need you."
Next time I hear about them going broke I'm going to send their answer back to them.

Joe Lenox
07-26-2005, 1:01 PM
I have an Avalanch which Love,,It rides great and you can get a full sheet of plywood into a compleatly covered area. The mileage is not great, but on long hauls i've gotten as high as 21 mpg...I think its a great truck

Ned Bulken
07-26-2005, 1:03 PM
I have a chevy Asto, which is based on the old s-10 chassis (sp?), you have to remove all the rear seats, but at that point it will hold 4x8 sheet goods on the floor of the van. I believe they're all wheel drive (mine is a 93, and is only 2wd, but I didn't have any problems this past winter) HTH
Ned

Matt Meiser
07-26-2005, 1:04 PM
A full sheet won't fit in the Ford Freestar, but we bought a utility trailer for $500 that works great. With the 4.2L engine, we can tow our camper no problem. I also ended up buying a Ranger a couple weeks ago to make hauling stuff more convenient and to reduce the miles we put on the Freestar (I drive the Ranger, wife drives the Taurus, the Freestar relaxes at home.) I understand the extended GM models (Venture, etc.) will carry a full sheet but its a tight fit. Even on the vans that carry a full sheet, you can't carry any more than one passenger from what I've seen. With the sheet cut in half (2 4'x4' pieces), I could carry it with the middle seats still in place and my daughter safely in her car seat in the second row. Whatever you are looking at, I would really try it how you want to use it before signing rather than take their word on it.

Charlie Plesums
07-26-2005, 1:20 PM
I haven't seen enough votes for the Honda Odyssey, so I will respond. When my woodworking took off a couple years ago, I was looking for a vehicle that would carry plywood in the rain, plus 10 foot boards, without unnatural acts (like I used to carry lumber coming out the sun roof). And be reasonalbe for day-to-day use (we didn't want a regular "commercial" van). The Odyssey was the only choice at that time.

The Odyssey carries at least 6 sheets of 3/4 inch plywood with the back door closed. It carries quite a few 10 foot boards with the door closed (they ride between the front seats). It will carry a 12 foot board (diagonally between the front seats and into the right passenger foot space) in a pinch. And it is great for delivering the finished furniture.

To our surprise, the Odyssey has become the vehicle of choice for long trips. The Honda Odyssey is very comfortable for both the driver and the passenger, and is a pleasure to drive. We rarely carry the middle seats, so on a trip, we keep coolers, nap area, etc. in the middle. The third seat can be folded up for rear seating, and to give a well for the roller bags and other cargo. Note that our other choice is our Lexus 400 LS and we choose the Honda for long trips. (You can bet the Lexus won't be replaced with a similar car when it's days are up).
If the Odyssey died, I would replace it in an instant. If the Lexus died, I don't know what I would choose.

Paul Dwight
07-26-2005, 1:43 PM
I drive a sedan so my wife's 2000 Honda Odyssey is the official wood hauler in our household. Carries 4x8 sheets of anything just fine -- rear seat folds into the floor, middle seats lift out, and away you go. Lumber up to 10' long goes in with the middle seats in place and the rear seat folded flat. Rides very well, handles well for a vehicle of its size, it's quiet, peppy and gets decent gas mileage. Carries 6 people is perfect comfort and 7 people comfortably if at least one of them is smaller (to fit in the middle of the rear bench seat). The Blue Book tells me it has held its value well. Ours has been very reliable; other than maintenance (oil & fluid changes, etc.), the only repair I can recall was replacing engine mounts. (Engine mounts do seem to be a weak spot in the design, though.) This is our third Honda product and we're happy customers. The plan is to replace it next fall with another Odyssey.

I have to admit there are times when I wish we had a pickup in the family. There are a lot more times when I'm glad we don't. We need the vehicle to haul people (not stuff) probably better than 80% of the time. As a people hauler, the Odyssey is far superior to any pickup in which I have ever ridden. For those 20% of the times when I have needed to haul something, the Odyssey has proven up to the task every single time. Including hauling home my 8" Delta jointer. In its shipping crate. With the hatch closed.

My 2 cents. -- Paul

Jay Kilpatrick
07-26-2005, 2:02 PM
i have a chrysler town and country....it hauls 4x8 plywood no problem. taking the seats out is a pain...but it works.

We've got the sto-n-go model. That would make it a cinch to haul sheet goods... but LOML wood (pun) do serious damage to the one defiling her vehicle with raw wood products! :eek: :D So I'll stick with hauling in the truck during good weather.

Dev Emch
07-26-2005, 3:49 PM
One more quick point.

Gas prices are just going up and up. Pretty soon, I will be able to get almost new SUVs for a pretty penny as their resale value is going down and down.

The ideal combo would be a diesel 1 ton truck like an F350 or Dodge 3500 along with a recruiter.... i.e. a hybrid such as the one by honda or toyota.

My dream is to see what happens when you take a VW turbo diesel 4 banger and couple it to the drive line of a honda or toyota hybrid. If you cannot clear at least 70 MPG, something is wrong!

Diesels have gotten a bad rap over the years. They are known for being noisy, stinky and just obnoxious. But the new developments have really improved how these engines work. Also bear in mind that they are low RPM engines whose work is done by torque and not high RPM. The first diesel introduced in this country at a world's fair was burning peanut oil. It was only later that they found you can run them on #2 fuel oil or diesel oil.

I know guys who go to McDonalds and gather up their old stale french fry cooking oil. The local McDondalds are happy to help as these are privately owned establishments who have to pay money to throw this stuff out. But did you know that cummins and powerstrokes work just fine on warmed up french fry oil? One guy starts his ford by starting on diesel and then warming up a beer keg in the back which has copper hosing wrapped around it. This connects to the engine cooling system. As soon as the french fry oil is warm, he switches a valve over and the engine is now burning fritter oil. You can make bio-diesel at home by trans-estification and this saves you the hassel of start up and switch over.

Bean oil or Willy Juice or Bio Diesel are fuels that use varying percentages of trans-estified soy bean oil mixed with standard #2 diesel. So as our oil problem intensifies, some of us are already looking at alternative engergy supplies now. Being that we can get 10, 15 or more years out of one vehicle, this is something to consider.

Me personally, I would rather sink my money into nice figured lumber and killer woodworking machines and shops layouts like Lou Sansone' than keep contributing to the UAW corporate retirement fund year after year after year. Take the money and buy a fixer upper house and renovate it. After you collect a few homes and rent them out, you find that renters are subsidizing your your own dirt based 401 plan with minimal contributions by yourself:):D

Just food for thought here. Isn't is strange how woodworking can really change your perspective on life? A friend of mine saw a new BMW in the parking lot and said, "Wow, wouldn't that be nice to have?" The instant thought that went through my mind was... "How in the heck can I haul a pile of lumber from back east using this thing". I think I am in need of the sawdust 12 step program:rolleyes:

Hank Knight
07-26-2005, 4:13 PM
One more quick point.

Gas prices are just going up and up. Pretty soon, I will be able to get almost new SUVs for a pretty penny as their resale value is going down and down.

The ideal combo would be a diesel 1 ton truck like an F350 or Dodge 3500 along with a recruiter.... i.e. a hybrid such as the one by honda or toyota.

My dream is to see what happens when you take a VW turbo diesel 4 banger and couple it to the drive line of a honda or toyota hybrid. If you cannot clear at least 70 MPG, something is wrong!

:

What Dev said!

All the talk about monster vehicles in the face of $2.50/gallon fuel gives me the willies. I don't think we'll ever see $1.00/gallon gas again. Apart from the political aspects of the issue, the sheer cost of operating one of these vehicles has become a very substantial part of the family budget. True, the hybrid technology hasn't been applied to large capacity vehicles - yet, but it will be soon. Toyota and several others (Lexus, I think) have SUV hybrids on the market and I think there are several hybrid pickups on the near horizon.

I have to admit that I'm a hybrid convert. I bought a Toyota Prius in November and I love it. I drove Jeep Grand Cherokees for ten years before I bought the Prius, so the transition to a smaller car took some time. But I've adapted completely and I couldn't be more pleased. Monday SWMBO and I returned from a week's driving vacation in the Prius. It was very comfortable and had plenty of room for our luggage - but it was only the two of us. I drove 1,850 miles and spent a total of $91.70 on gas for the whole trip. If' you're at all concerned about the cost factor, consider a hybrid. If you need a utility vehicle, consider one for business use only and look at a hybrid for the family car. I kept my old Jeep for hauling stuff and it has worked out just fine. My monthly gas bill has dropped by 2/3 since I bought the Prius - even using the Jeep occasionally for utility work.
My $.02.

Michael Cody
07-26-2005, 4:38 PM
Even though this is a woodworking forum, my short experience here tells me that the collective wisdom knows everything. We need a new vehicle, well actually two but that's another story. We've been trying to decide between a minivan and an SUV. Now here's where the woodworking twist comes in. Which ones will hold a 4x8 sheet of plywood totally enclosed?

Now it can't be too big and studly because it will be a family car for trips and things. Also, SWMBO says she can't climb into a big truck in a ladylike manner!

Any suggestions?

Please and thank you,
John Zimmerman

With all the specials and leases, buying a new vehicle should be a last resort. The lots are packed with used cars these days, in particular right now. I would go for for 3-5 year old used minivan .. Honda Odyssey is a good choice. Pay for it in cash if you can, if not you will still have a lot less car payment than w/new. Lastly even it's not perfect and holds several sheets of Ply, you can still get a small 5x8 trailer cheap and tow that around for bigger jobs. That's my 0.02$ worth anyway.

Donnie Raines
07-26-2005, 4:48 PM
It seems to me that the added cost for a hybrid, on the retail side, does not offset the cost of fuel. If you take a model that is standard gas and consider the cost diffrence to "upgrade" to the hybrid....your talking several thousand dollars. If you plan on keeping the car for a long time(considering most keep their vehcile only 2-3 years) I can see the possiability for savings...but again considering the averages ....wheres the savings?? I assume if you do a lot of driving the savings might be there, but on average it is not.

In saying that, I am all for anything that helps the consumer.....If the cost were to drift down and the technology proves it's self, I would be more game

Chris Padilla
07-26-2005, 4:55 PM
Just food for thought here. Isn't is strange how woodworking can really change your perspective on life? A friend of mine saw a new BMW in the parking lot and said, "Wow, wouldn't that be nice to have?" The instant thought that went through my mind was... "How in the heck can I haul a pile of lumber from back east using this thing". I think I am in need of the sawdust 12 step program:rolleyes:

They are nice to have! :D Funny thing, while you certainly cannot haul a 4x8 in a BMW, my 530i and 545i can handle 10 foot long 2x4s (about 8) and about 3-4 2x6s!!

Folks, I have a 1990 Toyota Pick-up (4-banger, 22R engine) with 114k on it. It looks horrible (paint is peeling like crazy) but runs like a champ. With some help to raise the 4x8s off the bed and the tailgate down, I can haul 11-14 sheets of 3/4" plywood. I've had this truck since 1995 and not a single thing has ever gone wrong with it. I just do the normal maintenance on it and this thing just goes and goes.... I think about replacing it all the time (wife hates the peeling paint...actually want me to get it repainted! :rolleyes: ) but I just haven't found a really good reason yet....

Lee DeRaud
07-26-2005, 5:41 PM
Just food for thought here. Isn't is strange how woodworking can really change your perspective on life? A friend of mine saw a new BMW in the parking lot and said, "Wow, wouldn't that be nice to have?" The instant thought that went through my mind was... "How in the heck can I haul a pile of lumber from back east using this thing". I think I am in need of the sawdust 12 step program:rolleyes:Heh. Or the reaction I had to seeing a Hummer in the Home Depot parking lot: "Geez, it's huge, but it doesn't look like 4x8 sheets will go in there...useless." :cool: :p

Jim Becker
07-26-2005, 6:10 PM
I'm just not a fan of minivans...nothing wrong with them, but I don't enjoy them for some reason. But they are a good value as a family vehicle that can also haul a reasonable amount of material, especially newer versions that have true-fold away seats, etc. And remember, you always have the option buy a "beater" older used pickup for hauling and keep it behind your shop while buying the family vehicle you really like, no matter if it can haul full sheets of something. (Or start doing all your woodworking with solid stock... ;) )

Christopher Stahl
07-26-2005, 6:16 PM
Donnie is right, it costs too much to buy the hybrid counterpart for most vehicles. You would be saving natural resources, but at a greater expense. The car companies are using the hybrids as a way to make money, not to save the environment. I would love to have a hybrid, but not at a 10-15% premium. It would take many years to recover the costs, even if gas was $5/gallon.

Your best bet is to buy what you want, and if it does not haul 4'x8's, then purchase a trailer. This way, you can also haul equipment. :)

my $.02

Jim Becker
07-26-2005, 6:20 PM
We recovered the couple thousand in extra cost for our Prius in the first two years of the almost four we have had it with the miles Dr SMWBO has been driving to work...half the fuel cost of her two previous vehicles per year. But you are correct, things have ratcheted up at this point and it's a little hard to justify the premiums dealers are currently getting even over sticker.

Matt Meiser
07-26-2005, 6:43 PM
And remember, you always have the option buy a "beater" older used pickup for hauling.

Jim makes a really good point. You can get a decent running older truck pretty cheap. And many of them just run and run and run. You could buy a mid-size car and an old truck cheaper than a minivan. That said, we'll probably always have a minivan as it is a good compromise vehicle for us since we need to be able to tow a 2-3000lb camper on long trips.

Gary Herrmann
07-26-2005, 8:03 PM
The new version will hold a full sheet of ply. Almost got one. We got a Tundra instead because of the deals in December and the fact that I fit in it better - more leg room.

Bob Borzelleri
07-26-2005, 8:53 PM
Let me put in a plug for the Honda S2000. Good power as well as torque. Limited slip differential, 6 speed gearbox and great handling. I haven't checked this out personally, but I am sure that you could get several 4"x8" boxes as well as similar sized sheets of wood in the trunk.

...Bob

Christopher Stahl
07-26-2005, 9:04 PM
I agree, go for a used truck. The used car market is pretty good for buyers right now and trucks especially. Dealers would love to get them off their lots.

Jim Fancher
08-16-2005, 9:50 PM
We've been trying to decide between a minivan and an SUV.

Gas prices in Houston are over $2.50 now. I can imagine what they are everywhere else.

Get a minivan. Not just any minivan ... look at the Honda Odyssey.

If you need any info on the Odyssey, check out my website. Feel free to PM me.

Frank Hagan
08-17-2005, 12:37 AM
My '04 Toyota Sienna will...

The *only* shortcoming I've found with having a minivan versus an SUV is in towing capacity.

As a family vehicle, a minivan can't be beat, IMHO.

Good luck & get whichever you want - don't let us confuse you. <IMG>

Cheers,
-Mike

Interesting ... my 99 Sienna definately won't. It could fit if it protrudes over the driver's head, and above the wheel wells, but I don't consider that "completely inside" since it hampers the driving so much.

That's what I get for driving old cars!

Frank Hagan
08-17-2005, 12:44 AM
Donnie is right, it costs too much to buy the hybrid counterpart for most vehicles. You would be saving natural resources, but at a greater expense. The car companies are using the hybrids as a way to make money, not to save the environment. I would love to have a hybrid, but not at a 10-15% premium. It would take many years to recover the costs, even if gas was $5/gallon.

Your best bet is to buy what you want, and if it does not haul 4'x8's, then purchase a trailer. This way, you can also haul equipment. :)

my $.02

I'm considering the Prius "Package 1" hybrid, which I can get for under $22,000. My BIL has one that he loves, and he gets 52 mpg in mixed driving. Starting Jan. 1, 2006, there's a $3,000 tax CREDIT (not deduction, CREDIT) for the Prius, so that brings the net cost down to below the base model Toyota Corrolla. And California will allow the Prius in the car pool lanes with a single driver.

Jim Becker
08-17-2005, 7:59 AM
I'm considering the Prius "Package 1" hybrid, which I can get for under $22,000. My BIL has one that he loves, and he gets 52 mpg in mixed driving. Starting Jan. 1, 2006, there's a $3,000 tax CREDIT (not deduction, CREDIT) for the Prius, so that brings the net cost down to below the base model Toyota Corrolla. And California will allow the Prius in the car pool lanes with a single driver.

I will support you on this...our Prius (a 2002) has paid for itself in fuel savings, even if there wasn't the tax credit at the time. (It was about $2000 at the then, but I don't recall the specifics) This particular vehicle, as you point out, is actually reasonably priced...and huge inside when compared to a similar "small" car.

Now, justifying the higher cost for the Highlander Hybrid Limited I just ordered doesn't work out from an ROI (return on investment) perspective, but we will still enjoy miuch higher mileage than we can get with a similar size SUV, lower emissions, etc. It was a hard decision, but we tend toward the "eco" side of things and that philosophy entered into the final word.

Michael Cody
08-17-2005, 8:09 AM
Beware the new Tax credit for hybid's only lasts until the maker sells 60,000 verhicles. Toyota will proably pass that just after the first of the year so they won't be eleligable for any discount. Also note that 3000$ is the max, but it's a calculated value not a flat one. It's based on the price difference and mileage gain over a similar packages in 2002 that were not a hybrid. This could mean your tax savings could be a lot less.. check out this article.

====================
Among the new federal tax breaks:

-- Hybrid cars.

Tax credits worth up to thousands of dollars will be available to those buying hybrid cars fueled by gas and electricity as well as other vehicles using alternative power sources. Some of these vehicles aren't yet available to the mass market, said Mark Luscombe, a principal with CCH Inc., a tax information provider in Riverwoods, Ill.

This tax credit essentially will replace the $2,000 federal tax deduction on hybrid purchases.

The size of the credit will depend upon the vehicle's weight, fuel economy and lifetime fuel savings, and consumers likely can count on manufacturers doing the math for them, Luscombe said.

Buy a hybrid car next year, for example, and you may receive a tax credit ranging from $250 to $3,400.

But don't wait too long to make that purchase. The credit may be claimed only on the first 60,000 hybrids sold by each manufacturer, and thereafter it's phased out.

"That means to reward people who are the pioneers, or the first to buy and jump-start the market," Castelli said.

Some say the cap also helps domestic manufacturers that have lagged their Japanese competitors on developing hybrids.

The credit will expire in 2010 for hybrid medium and heavy trucks and a year later on hybrid cars and light trucks, according to CCH. It runs through 2014 on fuel-cell vehicles.
================================

You might better off buying this year vs next ... though current 2000$ is a income reduction so the amount you save will be based on your tax bracket... You'd think this would be simple but I swear the new rules are a really a "No Tax Accountant Left Behind" goverment program. Think of the career ending tsunami if they ever actually simplified the tax code to a flat tax and all the non-value added labor we could dump!

Frank Hagan
08-17-2005, 10:49 AM
You might better off buying this year vs next ... though current 2000$ is a income reduction so the amount you save will be based on your tax bracket... You'd think this would be simple but I swear the new rules are a really a "No Tax Accountant Left Behind" goverment program. Think of the career ending tsunami if they ever actually simplified the tax code to a flat tax and all the non-value added labor we could dump!

Well, even in a 28% bracket, a $2000 deduction is worth $560, whereas a $3,150 credit is worth ... $3,150.

http://www.hybridcars.com/tax-deductions.html has some information on the credit, with the expected credit for the Prius at $3,150, as analyzed by the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy (the more detailed article is at http://www.aceee.org/press/0508hybridtaxcr.htm)

I have a dealer looking for one that I will buy early in January. Waiting 4 and a half months to save an extra $2,590 makes sense to me. I doubt I would save that much in gas over those months.

Michael Gabbay
08-17-2005, 12:43 PM
Ok I'll through in my 2 cents. I just bought a Honda Pilot a year ago. I love the car and afterhaving an Explorer, a Tahoe, and a Passat wagon over the past 13 + years this is probably the car I like best.

Now if I were to buy a new/used car today, I'd consider the following:

1. What type of driving do I do most? Commuting to work is 80% of most people's driving. Get something that is comfortable but gets good gas mileage.
2. What to I haul? I'll be putting the trans cooler on my Pilot (wished I'd had the dealer do it) in the fall so I can use a trailer to haul wood and stuff. It's still a pain to haul 10' boards with the back open more than a few miles.
3. Will this be the family car? Make sure it is roomy enough for around town. Consider renting a minivan for vacations.

I like the idea of diesal. Its too bad more manufacturers don't offer then in the smaller size trucks and cars.

my 2 cents...

Mike

Rob Will
11-04-2007, 10:45 AM
One more quick point.

I know guys who go to McDonalds and gather up their old stale french fry cooking oil. The local McDondalds are happy to help as these are privately owned establishments who have to pay money to throw this stuff out. But did you know that cummins and powerstrokes work just fine on warmed up french fry oil? One guy starts his ford by starting on diesel and then warming up a beer keg in the back which has copper hosing wrapped around it. This connects to the engine cooling system. As soon as the french fry oil is warm, he switches a valve over and the engine is now burning fritter oil. You can make bio-diesel at home by trans-estification and this saves you the hassel of start up and switch over.

Yes, diesel engines will "run" on raw vegetable oil but unfortunately, that is a good way to destroy a fuel injection system, not to mention the fact that your engine warranty is void.

Do not run any engine you care about on raw vegetable oil.
This is especially true with new high pressure fuel systems that operate at extremely close tolerances.

As Dev mentioned, true biodiesel goes through "transesterification" where impurities such as glycerin are removed. Most engine manufacturers now support the use of a biodiesel blend of around 5%. A 20% biodiesel blend is also very common on farms and other local fleets such as school busses. Google "NBB" for more information on biodiesel.

Now, back to the original poster's question.
If you only need to haul a few sheets of plywood, can you do it with a small utility trailer? If not, I would suggest a long bed pickup as a second vehicle. I have many trucks, some of them are quite heavy but about 90% of the time I drive an F-150. Driving a heavy truck all the time gets old.

I just can't get excited about hauling wood and other materials in an SUV or minivan. For now, I would go with what works best for the family. Good luck.

Rob

Cliff Rohrabacher
11-04-2007, 12:36 PM
Audi A4 or A6 are both very nice well engineered very comfortable cars and the maintainence costs on them are superbly low.

Audi Parts tend to be a tad more pricey than BMW - which is my preference.

You can get superb used cars with about 12 thousand miles on 'em and excellent warranties that cover everything.