Considering purchase of a new RO sander

[Mike Dowell]

Right now, I've only got one hand sander and I use it for almost everything. It's a Dewalt D26453 variable speed RO with 3/32" stroke. http://www.dewalt.com/tools/woodworking-sanders-random-orbital-sanders-d26453k.aspx

It's OK. Of course, I have very little to compare it with although I've heard wonderful things about the Mirka Ceros but that's a pneumatic and I'm not sure my compressor has the breath for that. Anyhow, I battle swirl marks all the time. Normally, after stripping a piece of furniture, I sand with 180g - some with my RO and other spots by hand. Lots of times, I've got to drop down to 120 to clean up the surface before the 180. I've been reading opinions on swirl marks they are all over the place. I suppose they are caused by a multitude of problems - technique, the stroke of the sander, improper grit selection... It just seems like once I've got swirls, they stay. gradually increasing grit has little effect. So, I feel like they just need to be avoided period.

Anyhow, I've been considering buying a new "main" sander(electric) and I thought I'd stop in and get some opinions. The Festool 150/3 seems to be overwhelmingly popular. I found another thread on here about the Festool ls130 being great for taking out swirl marks however that one is a linear, not RO.

I think I mentioned once before about my skin being thick. If your opinion is that my sander is fine and the problem is the operator - fair enough. I was just hoping to hear "yeah that sander is junk, get a real sander and check back in". :cool:

Anyone care to weigh in?

[Jamie Buxton]

Swirl marks are a technique problem. Each successively finer abrasive grit is supposed to remove sanding marks left by coarser grit, leaving behind finer scratches. As you work through the grits, those last scratches get finer and finer until they disappear. If you leave scratches from a coarse grit, the really fine abrasive near the end of the process may not be able to take them out. The fix is to go back to coarser grit, sand out the problem, and go back through the succession of grits.

Yeah, the Festool 6" is my main sander. It does a good job.

[Prashun Patel]

Mike,
Ceros is not a pneumatic. It's an electric. The difference is the motor is in a separate unit. The Ceros performs like a pneumatic, but there's no air.

FWIW, I find the Ceros worth every penny I paid. The things that make it worth the 4x price vs its counterparts are these IMHO:

- Dust collection (hooked to a shopvac with the right threaded hose, it stays put and gets almost all dust. So much, that I can sand comfortably in my house. This is the big win for me).
- Lighter (less fatigue)
- Smaller (easier to manipulate in tighter spots)
- Memory-less cord (long and robust and stays conveniently in place)
- Quieter, less vibration than the other ROS's I've used.
- Palm activated pressure switch. (I find it ergonomic to use).
- Low profile (I find it easier to keep it flat and in control).

[Harvey Miller]

My understanding is the Ceros isn't pneumatic. It uses a 12 volt brushless motor. The transformer (120 volt to 12 volt) is a heavy duty box with a skinny cord to the sander body. That's why the Ceros is smaller and shaped like a pneumatic sander.

I have the festool 150 and love it. Mainly due it's lack of vibration (my 5" Porter-Cable would leave my hands numb after a sanding session).

[Brian Tymchak]

Hi Prashun,

How much electric cord does Mirka give you from the converter to the sander? I'm wondering if I can land the converter on the bottom of my workbench and be able to reach where I need to without having to move it. I didn't find that info on the Mirka site.

Thanks, Brian

[Brian Tymchak]

Hi Prashun,

How much electric cord does Mirka give you from the converter to the sander? I'm wondering if I can land the converter on the bottom of my workbench and be able to reach where I need to without having to move it. I didn't find that info on the Mirka site.

Thanks, Brian

I just found a 12' extension cord on the mirka online site, so cord length should not be an issue.

Thanks, Brian

[Prashun Patel]

I do the same. I keep the converter well away from my workbench while I'm sanding. The limiting factor will likely more be your hose to your shopvac. I'd recommend the Porter Cable or Festool hoses with appropriate adapters. Using a 2" hose is unwieldy.

[Mike Dowell]

This is great input! Thank you all!

I use a 2" hose and it's horrible!

[David Ragan]

I will check into the Ceros; Until the wife his Lotto, though, going to stick with Festool 5"

A lot is technique.

[James Zhu]

You might want to wait for the new Festool ETS EC sander, check the review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zphGmjTlUo4

[Pat Barry]

If you go with the Dewalt, keep in mind the on off switch is kinda unreliable. See recent thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?225839-Ever-have-a-ROS-turn-itself-on) discussing the Dewalt's turning on by themselves

[John TenEyck]

I have the Bosch ROS65VC-6" sander and like it - a LOT. It's a lot cheaper than the Festool, has very low vibration, better on board DC, can be hooked up to an external vacuum though I never have, and leaves no swirl marks, or at least none that I can see. You also can buy it in kit form with both the 5" and 6" pads and nice case. Give it a close look before drinking the green Kool-Aide.

John

[John Coloccia]

The Ceros is easily the best electric sander I've ever used...hands down, even compared to Festool. That said, before the Ceros I used basic Porter Cable sanders...nothing special. Just their run of the mill ROS, and a Speed Bloc (which I still use). It's the same as with any sander. If you want swirl marks to go away, slow down....WAY down. Go as slowly as you can without being bored to tears, and then go half as slow as that. Seriously. I'm typing this on my laptop, and I'm looking at the screen. I would estimate it would take me about 20 to 30 seconds to sand the entire screen with a 5" ROS.

The temptation is to go over everything quickly, and to do it multiple times. That's what I see...back and forth, back and forth. That will guarantee swirl marks with any sander. If what you're doing resembles this, give my way a try once and see if that doesn't fix your problem for free :)

[Brian Henderson]

Swirl marks are a technique problem. Each successively finer abrasive grit is supposed to remove sanding marks left by coarser grit, leaving behind finer scratches. As you work through the grits, those last scratches get finer and finer until they disappear. If you leave scratches from a coarse grit, the really fine abrasive near the end of the process may not be able to take them out. The fix is to go back to coarser grit, sand out the problem, and go back through the succession of grits.

Yeah, the Festool 6" is my main sander. It does a good job.

Well, to be technical about it, the scratches never actually disappear, they just get finer and finer until you can no longer see them. There will always be scratches, that's the nature of abrasives. The trick, as you say, is to make sure that you sand out the scratches with each successive grit before moving on.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Right now, I've only got one hand sander and I use it for almost everything. It's a Dewalt D26453 variable speed RO with 3/32" stroke. http://www.dewalt.com/tools/woodworking-sanders-random-orbital-sanders-d26453k.aspx

<snip>
I think I mentioned once before about my skin being thick. If your opinion is that my sander is fine and the problem is the operator - fair enough. I was just hoping to hear "yeah that sander is junk, get a real sander and check back in". :cool:

Anyone care to weigh in?

I have no problems with that sander. I own that sander and I own the Festool. I have no particular preference most of the time. For certain, if I am using something to collect dust (vacuum), I prefer the Festool because it all integrates so nicely. Not so much on the Dewalt (at least I have not found a nice way to connect things to the dust port apart from the included bag).

When you say that you have scratches, the first thing that comes to mind is related to how much downward pressure is used against the wood. Typically, this means that I am using dust collection (vacuum) with too much suction. Do you have the swirls without the vacuum and only using the bag?

For me, that is the usual culprit anyway. If not, I hope that you are not pushing down on the sander, that will also cause problems.

If you use a variable suction vacuum, I expect you to adjust the suction until it just holds the sander down. Also, what sand paper do you use? Is it a decent paper? I use primarily norton and mirka with my Dewalt and of course Festool on my Festool.

[Prashun Patel]

Kind of like saying, eat better and exercise. So easy to say, so darn hard to do (I resemble that!)

[Kent A Bathurst]

.It just seems like once I've got swirls, they stay. gradually increasing grit has little effect. So, I feel like they just need to be avoided period.

"Swirl marks" and "scratches" are 2 different things, IMO. As Brian correctly notes.............


..........scratches never actually disappear, they just get finer and finer until you can no longer see them....

Even if you rub out through pumice and rottenstone, you are leaving scratches - that is not the issue. The issue is "can you see them", or, even more to the point, "can you see them after your are done finishing the piece"?

Using an ROS through 180 should do it. If not, go one more step to 220. Just as a reference - the lowest grit you use is designed to flatten and smooth the surface. After that, each successive grit is there solely to remove the scratches from the prior grit, and replace them with smaller scratches. Never leave your lowest [coarsest] grit until the piece is flat and smooth - just a waste of time.

Last tidbit on this: I learned from somewhere/somebody that as you travel across the wood with the ROS, the max allowable speed is 3 IPS. Don't remember who, where, or when. But - that's what I do. A 24" wide table top takes minimum of 8 seconds - usually I take 10 - for one pass. Get a full beer and light a new cigarette and put the headphones on - preferably Little Feat, but YMMV. IT takes time. Slow down.


............the Festool ls130 being great for taking out swirl marks however that one is a linear, not RO.

Sorry, but not trying to be a wise guy when I say "Well DUH!!!" :p It cannot put down swirl marks if you wanted it to, since it ain't swirling in action. I bet it is an outstanding last-pass-final-grit piece of gear.

On the Ceros - I have been trying to come up with a plausible excuse to get this one for a couple years. I am waiting for John C to get back to us with Mirka's response on the 5" v 6" interchangeability on the new Deros. The Deros, BTW, does not have the ouboard transformer - which should make it less cumbersome. The tradeoff is an extra 5 oz weight added to the 30.4 oz weight of the Ceros [plus $$$] - but part of that is the 6" capacity.



I was just hoping to hear "yeah that sander is junk, get a real sander and check back in".

MIke - I am always here to help, so I gotta tell you this in all honesty and sincerity :Yeah that sander is junk, get a real sander and check back in. :D :D

[Jamie Buxton]

..the scratches never actually disappear, they just get finer and finer until you can no longer see them. ..

What does "disappear" mean? It means you can't see them.

[Brian Henderson]

What does "disappear" mean? It means you can't see them.

If you get a magnifier, you'll be able to see them again. If you get a microscope, you'll be able to see them again. The scratches never go away entirely, they just get small enough that they are invisible to the naked human eye.

[Bill Orbine]

Let's not forget Mirka is offering a new sander called Deros. Similar to Ceros, but without the separate transformer. Probably built into the sander. I not know much about the Deros' performance but I believe it's worth waiting for reviews to build up. There's plenty on Ebay now.

[John Coloccia]

On the Ceros - I have been trying to come up with a plausible excuse to get this one for a couple years. I am waiting for John C to get back to us with Mirka's response on the 5" v 6" interchangeability on the new Deros.

The only way to get in touch with them is by phone, apparently. There's no e-mail address on the website. I just haven't really been interested enough to spend the time to call them because I have so little time to spend on things these days. It is rather annoying, though, and it's difficult to imagine why they would design the US sander mechanically different than the European one. Baffling, really.

[Larry Frank]

I have a Festool sander and am very happy with it especially the dust collection. I use mine e with a Festool dust extractor and it gets at all of the dust. They are well built and fit my hands well.

[Bud Zeien]

The best thing you can do is grab some stain (preferably dark) and a few different samples of wood, both soft and hard, and just practice your technique. The problem most people have is that the feed-back is delayed. It can be very hard to see the swirls until you get some stain in it, and usually by then you don't remember the technique you were using. So just spend a half hour of sanding and staining. See what works and what doesn't. It's quite easy and cheap, and I highly recommend it to everyone.
99.9% of my experience is with a pneumatic ROS. From what I've noticed with electric is that they don't have the speed of a pneumatic. Whether or not this can be compensated with technique is debatable. I would love to try the Ceros, I'm getting real tired of hearing the AC run when I'm sanding, it starting to sound like a cash register:(

[Brian Tymchak]

The only way to get in touch with them is by phone, apparently. There's no e-mail address on the website. I just haven't really been interested enough to spend the time to call them because I have so little time to spend on things these days. It is rather annoying, though, and it's difficult to imagine why they would design the US sander mechanically different than the European one. Baffling, really.

Woodwerks (here in Gahanna OH) is having their Winter Expo this weekend. They tend to get a fair number of tool reps in for that. I plan to go over tomorrow to check out their Mirka stuff. If there's a rep there I'll (try to remember to) ask them that question.

I'm not into spending $500 extra right now for a special dust vac, so if I can figure out how to adapt the Ceros to a Ridgid shop vac, I think that's pretty much my solution. If they are applying the Expo 10% special to the Mirka gear, so much the better.

[roger wiegand]

If you get a magnifier, you'll be able to see them again. If you get a microscope, you'll be able to see them again. The scratches never go away entirely, they just get small enough that they are invisible to the naked human eye.

How can this be? Sanding is removing material, once you've removed the material past the bottom of the scratch how can it not be gone? The only times I've had a problem with this is when I try to go too fast and not complete each grade, or if I try to skip a grade. If you jump from 80 to 150 it will take forever to get rid of the scratches, much faster to go 80-100-120-150, counterintuitive though that might be. The other time scratches can be problematic is with cheap, poorly sized sandpaper grit --it only takes one or two bits of grit on a disk that are a lot bigger than they're supposed to be to make a mess of your work.

I've very intrigued by this Ceros/Deros discussion, somehow these sanders have escaped my attention up until now. Would I expect a noticeable difference in sanding speed switching over from my ~15 year old 6" Bosch ROS? The smaller size/weight is very attractive. My belt sander just died so it has me thinking about a new sander. I see that the Ceros comes with a choice of two orbit sizes, I'm not sure how to think about what the effect of a larger orbit might be. Is a bigger orbit going to be more aggressive?

[Mike Dowell]

You all are a trip! This is great input by the way. Ok, so I've gleaned a few points from this:
1) slow down
2) don't press down on the sander (I did not know this)
3) although it won't solve much, it might be nice to upgrade my sander.

I don't have the stomach to drop $500 on a sander - although I should because it's definitely one of my most used tools - but I'm cheap. I think I might check out that Bosch that was mentioned though. at $225, I could enjoy it. If I got that, would you suggest the 5" or the 6"?

Also, here's a question about my Dewalt. When I turn it on, the disc orbits but it spins too. I know that it is suppose to orbit and "rotate" which is where the random part comes from but this thing spins like a high speed buffer. Is that normal? Take a look - View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/2iu8iv4/8)

[cody michael]

my craftsman spun very fast (i can't view your video) I replaced the bearing and it got a lot better.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

How can this be? Sanding is removing material, once you've removed the material past the bottom of the scratch how can it not be gone? The only times I've had a problem with this is when I try to go too fast and not complete each grade, or if I try to skip a grade. If you jump from 80 to 150 it will take forever to get rid of the scratches, much faster to go 80-100-120-150, counterintuitive though that might be. The other time scratches can be problematic is with cheap, poorly sized sandpaper grit --it only takes one or two bits of grit on a disk that are a lot bigger than they're supposed to be to make a mess of your work.

I've very intrigued by this Ceros/Deros discussion, somehow these sanders have escaped my attention up until now. Would I expect a noticeable difference in sanding speed switching over from my ~15 year old 6" Bosch ROS? The smaller size/weight is very attractive. My belt sander just died so it has me thinking about a new sander. I see that the Ceros comes with a choice of two orbit sizes, I'm not sure how to think about what the effect of a larger orbit might be. Is a bigger orbit going to be more aggressive?

Why are there still scratches? Because you used sandpaper to remove the previous scratches, so, although you removed material, you did it using sandpaper, which will leave scratches. So, you start with a rough sand paper and it leaves big scratches, and then you move to a finer sandpaper and it leaves smaller / finer scratches, and so on. If you use 2000 grit sandpaper, he is saying that it will leave 2000 grit sized scratches because that is how sandpaper works.

In the real world, something breaks down (probably, pure speculation) based on the relative fiber size compared to the particle size on the paper.

If you want to avoid scratches, use a smoothing plane, although by the same argument, you might argue that the abrasive used to sharpen the blade leaves a scratch pattern, which will in turn be transferred to the wood. I give up!

No comments on the Ceros / Deros other than the fact that my local Woodcraft has a Ceros setup that you can play with if you like. Does not help you since you are not in Columbus Ohio, but, you might be able to give something a try.

[John Coloccia]

Woodwerks (here in Gahanna OH) is having their Winter Expo this weekend. They tend to get a fair number of tool reps in for that. I plan to go over tomorrow to check out their Mirka stuff. If there's a rep there I'll (try to remember to) ask them that question.

I'm not into spending $500 extra right now for a special dust vac, so if I can figure out how to adapt the Ceros to a Ridgid shop vac, I think that's pretty much my solution. If they are applying the Expo 10% special to the Mirka gear, so much the better.

It's easy. Go to Woodcraft and they have a cheap hose that will thread right on. Then rummage through their dust collection stuff and find suitable adapters. I think I ended up duct taping two adapters together to make it work, but adapters are definitely available to make the hookup.

Incidentally, I use the Abranet sanding mesh also, and it's fantastic. I use their backing pad to remove some wear and tear on the Ceros pad because they're so expensive. Have fun with your Ceros. You're going to love it.

[Brian Henderson]

How can this be? Sanding is removing material, once you've removed the material past the bottom of the scratch how can it not be gone? The only times I've had a problem with this is when I try to go too fast and not complete each grade, or if I try to skip a grade. If you jump from 80 to 150 it will take forever to get rid of the scratches, much faster to go 80-100-120-150, counterintuitive though that might be. The other time scratches can be problematic is with cheap, poorly sized sandpaper grit --it only takes one or two bits of grit on a disk that are a lot bigger than they're supposed to be to make a mess of your work.

I've very intrigued by this Ceros/Deros discussion, somehow these sanders have escaped my attention up until now. Would I expect a noticeable difference in sanding speed switching over from my ~15 year old 6" Bosch ROS? The smaller size/weight is very attractive. My belt sander just died so it has me thinking about a new sander. I see that the Ceros comes with a choice of two orbit sizes, I'm not sure how to think about what the effect of a larger orbit might be. Is a bigger orbit going to be more aggressive?

Because the method of removing those scratches is adding new scratches. That's how abrasives work. It's just ever decreasingly sized scratches. It doesn't matter how far you go, if you're using 1000-grit sandpaper, if you're using 8000 grit stones, you're still leaving some level of scratches on your workpiece or your chisel or whatever. There's a time when the unaided human eye can no longer detect the scratches, when the unaided human finger can no longer feel the scratches. It doesn't mean there are no more scratches, just that it's not possible to detect without more sensitive equipment than you have built in.

[Kent A Bathurst]

It doesn't mean there are no more scratches, just that it's not possible to detect without more sensitive equipment than you have built in.

And then ya' slap on some varnish , or shellac, or whatever, and it fills in them there tiny scratches anyhoo..........

You will hear a different opinion from everyone, but here's mine: 180 g is the max grit I go to on wood - RO each step 100-120-150-180, then 180 on a cork block for one last pass by hand, with the grain.

EXCEPT when I have a multi-step finishing schedule, as per when I am doing A+C finish on QSWO. Then I stop at 150g. shellac sealcoat, dye, shellac sealcoat, gel stain to color the pores, shellac sealcoat, varnish x 3 - 5 coats. AIn't no stinking scratches gonna survive all of that.

EXCEPT on the end grain, where I want to seriously inhibt dye absorption. Then I go to 320 to burhish the wood, and keep the color in-line with the face grain.

[mreza Salav]

I have a Festool and it is a good sander. I wish it was lighter. One thing that I think is more important than the sander itself is the sand paper.
They are not all equal. Believe me. I have been sanding A LOT (I mean a LOT) in the past year. I wore out my Festool pad and needed to replace it. I learned there are bad sand papers (ironically the ones by Festool are junk!), there are better ones (3M), and then there are even better ones (Abranet). They are pricier but worth it.

[Quinn McCarthy]

Check out dynabrade sander they are air driven. I bought 3 for the same price as festool and it sands way batter.

[Mike Dowell]

This has become quite the scratch battle! While we are all arguing about scratch depth, scratch visibility and scratch existence, are Mirka Gold sanding pads considered amongst your favorites? I had some 120 pads and I feel like they wore down quickly - this could easily be my imagination though.

[Kent A Bathurst]

This has become quite the scratch battle! While we are all arguing about scratch depth, scratch visibility and scratch existence, are Mirka Gold sanding pads considered amongst your favorites? I had some 120 pads and I feel like they wore down quickly - this could easily be my imagination though.


That's my favorite, for the last number of years. Seem to work fine for me. I run 60 - 220.

[Jim Becker]

The only times I've ever had swirl marks with my 105/3 was when something got stuck on the paper and I didn't notice it until too late. I can sand for very long periods of time with the Festool 150/3 without my hands getting numb like they did with previous, lower-end products and the dust extraction is outstanding...clean abrasive lasts longer and give better results.

[jack duren]

Check out dynabrade sander they are air driven. I bought 3 for the same price as festool and it sands way batter.

Very good sander and use daily.

I'll have to check into the Ceros....

[mreza Salav]

Jim, have you tried sanding vertical surfaces for long? that's a different story! that's why I wish 150/3 was lighter. It's a good sander, don't get me wrong but not for vertical sanding.

[jack duren]

The ceros compared to festool just in size tells me its a no brainer to get the ceros. If it sands anywhere near a dynobrade I'm sold

[Mike Dowell]

Well, I really don't want to spend the money on the Ceros although I wouldn't completely rule it out. I will say though, the Ceros is very unique compared to the Bosch and the Festool because it's super low profile. It just LOOKS comfortable to use.

[Mike Dowell]

Wow, the word "ceros" appears 31 times in this thread. Hey, what model number are you all running anyhow?

[Dan Chouinard]

After using the ceros for one day i gave away my festool sander. so much more comfortable to use.

[lowell holmes]

$1000.00 for a sander, get serious.:confused:

[jack duren]

$1000.00 for a sander, get serious.:confused:

where did you see it for $1000?

[lowell holmes]

where did you see it for $1000?

http://www.abglovesandabrasives.com/mirka-ceros-mk-cp2-5-portable-dust-free-sanding-system-1-each/?catargetid=520007730000000089&cadevice=c

[jack duren]

That's not for just the sander. You could use any vacuum for dust collection. We do this on the Festool Domino....

[Mike Dowell]

So, not sure if anyone saw it, but I asked a few spots back what model Ceros you all are running? It seems they have many, many models.

[Brian Tymchak]

So, there was a Mirka rep there at Woodwerks this weekend. When I asked the question about the European models having the interchangeable 5"/6" pads, but not the US models, he corrected me a bit in saying that the 220V models had the interchangeable pads but not the 110V model. He also said that just changing the pad was not that straightforward, that there was counter-weighting that needed changed as well. I mentioned that it still seemed a bit odd that the 220 V model could interchange pads but not the 110V, and I think he got tired of me asking about it, saying somebody somewhere made the decision... Oh well..

It was nice to have the Ceros and Deros there side by side to compare. Quite honestly, I thought they were very close. The Deros is a little bigger and heavier, but not overwhelmingly so, and also $90 more expensive. The rep was really trying to make the point that the Deros is better for 2-handed sanding, and with it's bigger handle and head, yes I guess that might be true. The Deros also has a quick connect capability and an integrated power cord/vac hose that would probably be very handy in larger pro shops. However, for my purposes (home hobbyist) I went with the Ceros 5". It was also 10% off with Expo pricing. The hose (add on for ~$50 with Expo 15% discount) has a fitting for the Mirka vac that perfectly fits in the inlet port on my Ridgid vac. No jury rigged solutions to get the dust collection adapted. Nice!! Gave it a quick test run on a smaller scrap of Ash. Sweet! Just for grins, I ran through all the grits in the Abranet samples pack up to 400. In just 5 minutes, that piece of wood is so polished I can read reflected lettering. And not one spec of dust.

Last thought - the rep made a comment at one point that he thought the Ceros would be around for a little while yet, so that to me is a pretty clear hint that Mirka plans for the Deros to be the go-forward model.

[Bill Graham]

So, not sure if anyone saw it, but I asked a few spots back what model Ceros you all are running? It seems they have many, many models.

I have the 6" Ceros with 5mm orbit(or maybe it's the 150mm with 3/16" orbit? ;) ) Anyway, when I bought mine shortly after they were introduced in the States the choice was 5" or 6" pad. I thought at one time they were selling the 5" with a 3mm orbit but just checked their website (http://www.mirka.com/en-US/us/tools/electric_sanders/): it looks like both the 5" and 6" are available in 5mm, you can get a 6"/8mm for rough stock removal and a 3"/2.5mm for touchup work. No 3mm anywhere.

Anyway, great sanders! I've had mine for almost 4 years with no problems or complaints, only sander I've used that could be called comparable was the old DA Sioux, maybe the DynaBrade which I haven't used. But they need a monster compressor and hearing protection is a must with the air sanders.

Best,
Bill