New Woodpeckers Festool add on

[Maurice Ungaro]

Looks like it comes with a Festool price too!
http://www.woodpeck.com/mftsquare.html

[Rich Riddle]

I saw this yesterday at the Columbus Woodworking Show. It's one of those that I feel fall into the gimmick tool category. Unfortunately, many of Woodpeckers tools seem to fall in that category. Some are great, but many lack practical use.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Rich, my thoughts exactly.

[Wade Lippman]

I disagree! Getting my mft perfectly square was a pain. If I hadn't sold it, I would be all over this. Well, if it was maybe $50.

[Mark Carlson]

The easiest way of squaring an MFT fence is to use 20mm bench dogs in the holes. The rows and columns of holes are perfectly cnc machined to be 90 degrees. No need for a square. I think they're called qwas dogs and you'll find videos on how to use them.

[Frank Martin]

Exactly my thoughts. Many years ago I had an MFT and sold it because of unreliable alignment. Back then there were no dogs available, so setting it square was painful and required checking and adjusting often... Pretty much the only Festool that I bought and was not satisfied with its performance.

[Brian Kincaid]

I can see the use for this tool because of the way the Festool rail must go up and down for different stock thicknesses. It seems, though, that there are probably better solutions to the problem than a huge metal square. Especially since you could just draw the squaring lines on the table top using a 345 triangle and then use a 3" machine square to make sure you are on the mark. The dog holes are probably a fine solution too!

That said, if someone really wants an enormous metal square, then go for it :)

-Brian

[Chris Padilla]

The easiest way of squaring an MFT fence is to use 20mm bench dogs in the holes. The rows and columns of holes are perfectly cnc machined to be 90 degrees. No need for a square. I think they're called qwas dogs and you'll find videos on how to use them.

Yes. Qwas. I have a couple sets of these dogs and they make alignment a breeze...and they are was less money than Woodpeckers' product.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Looks like it comes with a Festool price too!
http://www.woodpeck.com/mftsquare.html


Yeah - but no systainer. :( :(

[Maurice Ungaro]

Ha ha! You're right, Kent! What a rip.

[Dan Clark]

Of the folks who think it's a gimmick, how many have a Festool MFT? (I do.)

When using the MFT as a table saw with the drop down guide rail, the rail is typically aligned to cut the wood at 90 degrees. So getting the guide rail square to the piece (not necessarily the table) is critical.

I have two Woodpeckers squares that I use for aligning the MFT guide rail to the piece being cut. They work well. I also have two sets of Qwas Dogs and one set of Quas Rail Dogs. All work well in some circumstances and not as well in others.

Qwas dogs work well when the MFT guide rail is perfectly square to the MFT. However, setting the MFT guide can be a bit tricky. The guide rail needs to be very low or sitting on the table to get it square to the table. When you lift up the clamps at both ends of the table, the rail can become unsquare.

This is why I use one my two Woodpecker squares and align the wood to rail regardless of whether the rail is square to the table. This results in square cuts virtually all of the time.

My Woodpecker squares are the 12" 1281 and the Carpenters Square. They work well, but a larger square would be better. At 17", this new Woodpeckers square would be more accurate. So it is not a gimmick.

Whether it is worth $270 is a different issue.

Dan.

[John Schweikert]

I'll be quite frank. People can and should be more resilient in fabricating their own basic tools sometimes. My crosscut sled I built has been measured and I can get .001" square accuracy per foot of length cut. With that I have cut acrylic triangles, plywood triangles that I use regularly to square and measure for square most anything in the shop, bandsaw blade, jointer fence, table saw blade, etc. I could just as easily laminate two small sheets of 3/4" quality ply, and cut an 18" triangle that would be .002" or less accurate in square. That's all that is needed to square an MFT rail setup. None of this is rocket science or requires million dollar CNC machines. Youtube has videos on how to set and measure a crosscut sled to near perfect square. Which such a simple shop tool, you can make some quality accessory tools.

Someone needs to come along and create a small business that makes quality tool accessories at price points which are actually realistic of what the item is and it's intended use. A $270 square is just plain silly. The old saying goes here quite well, Woodpeckers has gotten a little too big for it's britches.

[Ty Williams]

First, as a Festool MFT owner, the stock hinged rail alignment system thing sucks. I could get it square, it'd stay square for several cuts, the inevitably I'd bump something and knock it out of square. Now, it never went out of square too far for general carpentry use, just too far out of square for fine woodworking. I'd happily build cabinets or bookshelves with it, which is really what it's meant for. In the end, I ditched it completely and use the Qwas Dogs and Qwas Rail Dogs together. Rail Dogs align the rail to the grid and the Dogs align the work to the grid. Together, I get perfect cuts every time. The only downside is that it's a little more of a pain to adjust to different stock thicknesses than with the Festool hinge.



I'll be quite frank. People can and should be more resilient in fabricating their own basic tools sometimes.
A lot of us have limited shop time and would rather make stuff that makes us happy than waste that time making things to make the things that make us happy.


My crosscut sled I built has been measured and I can get .001" square accuracy per foot of length cut.
Doesn't matter. Your crosscut sled can't be used with a track saw. A lot of people are using track saws and don't own a table saw.


Someone needs to come along and create a small business that makes quality tool accessories at price points which are actually realistic of what the item is and it's intended use. A $270 square is just plain silly. The old saying goes here quite well, Woodpeckers has gotten a little too big for it's britches.
I'm guessing you haven't worked professionally in small-run manufacturing. I have. The cost to have a small number of something made is just stupid. Woodpeckers won't sell many of these triangles. I'd be willing to bet they'll sell less than 100, probably less than 50. That means the costs to produce them are divided among a very small number of units and the run is so small that there's no point in creating custom fixtures and setups, so the machining time is long. That costs HUGE money compared to something you're going to knock out 100,000 of. At the last place I designed parts, I put out a RFQ on a small metal item with a little machining and 2 welds. I wanted to see if we could get 10 of them made to see how they'd sell. The first 10 were going to cost us about 5 grand, but if we wanted to order a thousand of them, the cost only rose about 500 bucks. So Woodpeckers is probably charging a little extra for the red anodize and the fact that it works with Festool, sure. The bigger issue is that Woodpeckers, via their One Time Tool program, is positioning itself in the super-niche market of tiny-run tools, which means that OTTs are going to be quite expensive.

Now, a separate question is whether their stuff is worth it. It's entirely possible to create a product and calculate a economically correct retail price that's higher than the product's utility value. If that's the case, you just don't make the product. Woodpeckers definitely flirts with that line.

[Fidel Fernandez]

Here we go again. Please don't throw me bricks.

I was a big festool user, until one day I realized why I am paying premium dollars for a brand that doesn't work as it is suppose to be.
The MFT is for cross cutting, and other things. Well is a MDF top with holes, legs and metal around to hold the guides and the mdf top.

It is so difficult to have the MFT cutting square that we have to use Qwas dogs, squares, triangles, jigbs etc. The MFT is not capable to maintain the setup for long time. Most of the festool tools have some flaw/issue that we had to accept and live with it. Why?

Is It not enough to pay high prices to have a decent tool? Now, everybody is getting into the Festool business and making jigs to make festool work as it should.
Pressure festool to fix their tools in design time and provide something as good as the advertisements they make. Those Youtube videos are amazing.

I setup my Table saw to have the blade parallel to the miter guide (once), The fence to the blade (once).
My Bandsaw is adjusted and setup when I change blade, not every 2 or 3 cuts.
I can go and go for ever, but if they made the MFT and one way that it was easy to setup and stay square, then Woodpecker won't have any market to make those tools and this post never existed.

It is not woodpecker that is creating gimmicks, is festool doing it. They have obviously an amazing marketing system to advertise and they know how to do it.
I am in the process to build a top that will be on top of my regular bench or any bench, it will have a hinge rail for my guides and saws. It will be repeatable and I won't have to buy any jig to make my jig square.

We should make festool accountable for all the flaws on their tools instead of accepting them and living with a 85% tool and paid for a 120% tool. (overpriced).
My 1080 MFT is in a corner collecting dust. Most of my festool tools are like that, stored on their systainers and the only time they will see the light again is for taking them to UPS store after I sell them.

[Ty Williams]

I was a big festool user, until one day I realized why I am paying premium dollars for a brand that doesn't work as it is suppose to be.
To me, that's an interesting statement. I have a bunch of Festools, and the ONLY one I've ever had a single serious criticism of is the MFT's rail hinge (which is easily solved). Two vacs, sanders, router, tracksaw, jigsaw, Domino, etc, all of which do for me what Festool claims they do. I actually buy so many Festools because, unlike other brands I've tried, they basically just work.

What sort of problems did you have?

[Kent A Bathurst]

OK - this thread made me - for the first time ever - look at the details of the MFT system on-line.

Never saw one in captivity.

From the cheap seats, I can't see how that thing would be sturdy enough to meet my requirements, but then, I am not lugging my stuff into jobsites - especially my workbench[es].

The most interesting thing - there is a lot - a LOT - of Woodpecker things listed for click-and-buy on the Festool site. Co-marketing, or whatever the word is. Clearly thy have an arrangement where Woodpecker designs and builds these accessories, and both companies make them available for sale.

Nothing inherently wrong with that - they have developed a separation of labor to take best advantage of the core competencies of both. That's smart, in my world.

But....when you look at those Woodpecker accessories, you are - pragmatically - looking at Green Kool Aid with a different color scheme. I wonder - what is Festool's rake off-the-top for each "sanctioned" Woodpecker item? Makes that giant price on the setup square more easily understood - 20% would be fifty bucks - just made up a number that is high, but maybe not all that unreasonable [representing the "value" of the Festool name and nod of approval, and the fact that Festool Owners are, by definition, willing to pay a premium price]

ANyway - as you were gentlemen - it was a Red Letter day for me, so I thought I'd toss in the comments.

[Fidel Fernandez]

Domino 500. Skew fence, you have to be aware that you have to retighten the fence after a couple or mortices. It will creep up and your mortices will be skewed, etc.
TS is prone to kick back. I was cutting and then I get a kick back, mainly my fault. There was time to replace my saw and tried to buy the TS REQ and it was in recall. I ordered the Mafell MT55cc and that is how the saws should it be. I tried by force to make it kick back, I am not being able to do so. The saw prevents that, it stops the blade.
My festool guide has some scars to prove how dangerous a kick back is.

Sanders, So many issues. The delta DTS400, froze one day after sanding some drywall and wood. I use my Festool vacuum all the time. I had to open it a vacuum/blow/brush all the dust.
The velcro grip at the tip is gone after a few uses.

Saw Guides. I have accepted the way to joing the guides to make sure they were straight. I have the new Mafell guides and now I know how they guides should it be. They are always straight because the join system is superior as the Festool. The sacrificial strip ungluing all the time and you have to buy your own glue to fix it.

Sanders, I had to remove the on/off switch on my ETS and DTS to sand it a little bit so they work smooth. Before it was really hard to move them. I accepted that kept working and using them after I sand them.

The tip hose the one you attach to the different tools, I have to put it together all the time. The rubber locks don't stay put. It is very common problem in the festool owners group. It was reported originally by the first forum owner Matthew Schenker so it is an old problem never fixed.

The plunge bars on the routers gets rusty very easy. My other routers never had that problem.

Sanders you have to let it run about 8 hours before they work smooth. That should it be done in the factory.

The drill clutch cannot hold the bits very well, many cases reported about bits falling. It happen to me very often.

There are a lot more, that I can keep writing. All those happen to me, but I "accepted" the way the festool tools work.

I am not talking isolated problems, these are real issues that shouldn't exist. What happen is we accept them and decided is ok. It shouldn't, for the money we pay.

Let me explain something and that will explain my issues. Festool makes great machinery (motors), They will last for many years. I don't know if the plastic/rubber things and add ons are outsourced and made by third parties. That is the weakest link in the Festool brand and people just accepted. There are other brands that work better some are more expensive and other are not.
I am bless to have a profession that allows me to buy this premium tools, but I want my money to be well spent.
You said the MFT rail hinge is easily solved, You shouldn't have to fix this problem. It shouldn't exist. It is a premium brand with a big flaw.

Is there a difference when you buy a tool and doesn't work and you return it for warranty. This is not the case we accept the problem and we live with it.
Imagine if you have to setup your Table saw every 5 cuts, because it is not square after the 5 cuts. I would return that type of machine, but not the festool. Why we accept that?? That is my question.

[Ty Williams]

I'm surprised at that list. I don't really participate much on the FOG, so I have no idea how common that stuff is. I will say that I use my tools quite a lot and I'm not especially nice to them. I have most of the tools you listed there and haven't had a single problem with any of them. I'm especially impressed that you have kickback problems with the track saws as that should be very difficult.

[Fidel Fernandez]

Well, like I said it was mostly my fault.

I plunged into the plywood before the saw was at max speed and got the kickback. My festool guide FS has the battle scars losing to the kickback.

I tried to do the same thing with the Mafell MT55CC and the Bosh/Mafell guides and the saw won't let the kickbad to happen. The blade is stopped and the saw moves up maybe 3 or 4 mm. (less than ¼ of an inch). The blade is never exposed above the guide.

The amazing thing is that this particular safety feature is not even advertised for the MT55CC, they just made it so the user is protected. That is what I expect from Festool, but I don't have it.

[Greg R Bradley]

.......
The most interesting thing - there is a lot - a LOT - of Woodpecker things listed for click-and-buy on the Festool site. Co-marketing, or whatever the word is. Clearly thy have an arrangement where Woodpecker designs and builds these accessories, and both companies make them available for sale.

Nothing inherently wrong with that - they have developed a separation of labor to take best advantage of the core competencies of both. That's smart, in my world.

But....when you look at those Woodpecker accessories, you are - pragmatically - looking at Green Kool Aid with a different color scheme. I wonder - what is Festool's rake off-the-top for each "sanctioned" Woodpecker item? Makes that giant price on the setup square more easily understood - 20% would be fifty bucks - just made up a number that is high, but maybe not all that unreasonable [representing the "value" of the Festool name and nod of approval, and the fact that Festool Owners are, by definition, willing to pay a premium price]

ANyway - as you were gentlemen - it was a Red Letter day for me, so I thought I'd toss in the comments.
I'm confused. There is nothing for sale on Festool's site, Festoolusa.com. Festools have to be bought from authorized dealers and there are no other brands for sale on the site either. Are you getting ads from pop ups? Are you looking at a dealer that sells both? Also, I don't see anything authorized about Woodpecker's MFT accessory. Where is that coming from? Am I missing something?

[Wade Lippman]

Domino 500. Skew fence, you have to be aware that you have to retighten the fence after a couple or mortices. It will creep up and your mortices will be skewed, etc.
TS is prone to kick back. I was cutting and then I get a kick back, mainly my fault.

I have never had these problems. Don't know about the Mafell being better, but since there is no problem with the Festools... Any tool is dangerous if you misuse it.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Are you looking at a dealer that sells both?

Right you are - I was completely wrong. I don't frequent Festool sites, and this place had the "auth dealer' off in a corner, with the big Festool logo and banner right up front. I took the head-fake.

Never mind. :o