Combo Machine vs Individual Machines

[lloyd morris]

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

I am seriously considering a full combo machine or a saw/shaper and planer/jointer. One of my concerns with the decision is the change over time to set up a combo machine when switching between saw or shaper or shaper and jointer for example.

I was wondering if it would really take longer to do a project. Considering I now have the machines on mobile bases and still have to roll the machines out and put others away to use a tool. Any thoughts or ideas regarding the additional time required or time savings relating to using a combo machine vs individual power tools would be appreciated.

Recently I built the work bench on the left out of hickory and red oak rough cut to approximately 2"x6"x6'. The only difference between the bench on the right and the one I built is the legs and feet on mine are laminated oak 3"x3" and I added 6" skirts on all four sides. It was my first major woodworking project and took me about 90 hours using separate tools. Any idea how much longer to build a project like this with a combo machine once you are over the learning curve?

The picture is from Lee Valley as I have not quite mastered posting pictures yet. Thanks again.

Lloyd Morris


http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/clamps/05a0101g1.jpg

[Jim Becker]

"How you work" should determine which is better for you, a full 5-function combo, or a J/P/M (jointer/planer/mortiser) and S/S (saw/shaper) combo. Your shop setup will also affect the decision. Mine, for example cannot really accomodate the full combo physically and still be able to handle material (I have a stairway that bisects my shop), so I went with the J/P combo for a wide jointing-planing function and kept the table saw separate. I also bounce back and forth between the jointer and the saw constantly, so having these items separatly works best for me.

Don't be concerned with "change-over" time...for any of the decent combos (and most of the others...) it's about a minute or two max for any function switch over. No big deal and it forces you to slow down and avoid injuries, too. Flipping my MiniMax j/p between functions takes no more than a minute and a half and that includes cranking the planer table up or down manually.

The real benefit to the combos, whether full or partial, is the increased capacities, power and safety features for an attractive price if you are comparing similar capacities and quality. For example, I don't have the room for a 12-16" jointer and separate 15-20" planer in my shop. I do have room for a single machine that does both functions and has a 14" capacity for both. No way will I ever be without a wide jointer again!

[Chris Padilla]

Lloyd,

Space limitations forced a combo maching out of me (jointer/planer). I simply didn't have the room for a separate planer and jointer (much like Jim). I ended up with a Minimax FS-41 Elite (16") J/P that I got a nice show price on over a year ago at a semi-local woodshow (Sacramento).

Switch-over is no big deal but sometimes you have to plan better since you'll move your planing spot but the indicator on the machine keeps good track of where you were.

[Michael Sloan]

Hi Lloyd,

I would expect that a good combination machine would substantially reduce the amount of time needed to build that workbench relative to the normal quality of individual machines in a typical small shop.

If I were building that bench using my Minimax CU300S, for example, the sliding table saw would reduce my table saw setup time dramatically, the 12 inch J/P would allow me to flatten the table top much more quickly, the mortiser would have been much faster for making some of the mortise and tenon joints in the legs. For me, the combination machine would probably reduce total machine processing time by 30 percent. Machine processing would probably be 30-40 percent of the total time in the project. (Of course, YMMV).

The only time that I find change-over to be an issue is when I have set up the shaper, and then need to do something major with the table saw that requires the shaper setup to be taken apart. The combination is a real pain when that happens. Fortunately, that does not happen very often. I can shift between the table saw and the J/P with almost no hassle, and switching between jointer and planer is now very quick. I do spend more time thinking about work flow however in order to avoid the need for changeovers. This is probably a good thing for me.

Mike

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hi Lloyd,
I see you are still trying to decide :) Well here is some additional food for thought.

Separates will cost more that is a fact and there is some additional machine benefits to have separates. If you are someone that likes to rip then joint then two different machines running will speed up your time usage. Remember a full combo can only have one function working at a time. For me the only real benefit to have a saw/shaper combo (other than cost or space savings) is the ability to have a very accurate dadoing setup. Some manuf allow you to use a dado head. If you ask me that is waste of time. Do you remember how long it akes to set that stacked dado head on a cabinet saw? and that you saw is now rendered useless until that dado head comes off? Another option, which I am looking into is installing a dedicated router in my sliding panel saw (at the same location as a shaper would be) in a shop made outfeed table. This gives me the dado cabilities and keeps my saw and shaper free!

A good full combo will not be less accurate it will just have a little less capacity in some of its functions, require a little more time between switching between some functions and will cost less. Do not be fooled inot thinking that it will require less room though. You will now have to access all sides of this machine and have the clearance required at each side in order to gain it's full advantage. If you need to move machines around still while not in use then a full combo might be advantageous being it is more compact. Either way whatever you do do not get anything less than a 8'-0" slider. Otherwise you will be sorry. It not only is a blessing for sheetgoods but it is an absolute miracle for edge joining long solid stock, there simple is no better, faster and more accurate way to do this.

As far as machines go I will make a comment on one machine, the MM FS41. There simply is no better 16" j/p out there period. It has a numeric readout for planer setting (very easy to return to a preset thickness), the fence is rock solid ( no end mounted deflection here), it has Tersa knives - better than sliced bread, it offers the Elite mortiser add on which is great......I get absolutely no snipe and electronics would not better this machine at all.
I of course have opinions on others :) but will keep this installment to just one

[John Renzetti]

Hi Lloyd, Withou getting into which make is the greatest thing sinced sliced bread, I'll try to address your question concerning the full combo or saw/shaper and jointer/planer.
About 8yrs ago I got my first combination machine setup. They were separate Felder saw/shaper and jointer/planer combo. Changeovers I found was minimal, especially on the jointer/planer. I like the pause you get when switching since it gives me time to think of the next procedure. A big plus for a seperate j/p is that you get a big more versatility and if you need to move the machines the j/p can go into a smaller space and the saw/shaper in another smaller area. Downside of two separates is that they cost more than a full combo. Also the footprint will be larger. I know on the Felder saw/shaper that the footprint will be about the same as the full combo since you have extension tables where the j/p would be on the full combo.
One downside of a saw/shaper combo would be the changeover from saw to shaper and back. If you do a lot of panels or other complicated shaping setups, then the changeover could present a hassle. From what I've seen, guys in pro shops tend to go from a full combo to saw/shaper and j/p to finally the saw separate shaper and the j/p.
I disagree that you must have an 8ft slider. Sure it's nice to have if you cut a lot of panels. But if you cut only solid pieces an 81" or 51" slider works fine. I know guys with the 81" slider or smaller who use the Festool guides and saw to get nice cuts on large panels, and then transfer the smaller pieces to the slider.
Once you have narrowed down which configuration you want, then take a look at the various makes and see which one works best for you and within your budget. It could be Felder, Knapp, Hammer, Rojek, Robland. I think there is one more but I can't remember at the moment.
take care,
John

[Chris Padilla]

I think there is one more but I can't remember at the moment.

I think that would be MiniMax.... ;)

[Bob Yedinak]

Lloyd, I have a very good friend who purchased a combo machine with 3 motors, made in Italy. Since he bought the machine he has become partially disabled and can't use it. I doubt if it has over 10 hours of use. He lives in north central Illinois. If you are interested in the machine please E-mail me, and I will put you in contact with him.
Bob

[Brian Buckley]

Lloyd,

I recently changed from seperate machines to a combo. My new baby is a Mini Max 410 Elite. The learning curve for me has been very slow. With that said, I am very slow. (3rd grade was hard, but the 4th grade almost did me in)
I realy enjoy the 8ft slider, it is very acurate. the 16" J/P is a dream, very easy to set up. The shaper is my big chalenge, not only do I know nothing about it, but I am afraid of it. I am going to MM the latter part of Augist (2 day course) to learn more. I think I made a good decision on the purchase of the combo, but it is a big change from what I learned wood working on.

Brian