a good 135 degree miter square?

[jamie shard]

So... I just checked the miter square (with a starrett miter square) I've been using for the past year and it's about a 1/16 out of alignment over 6 inches. Wow.

While the Starrett miter square works for 45 degrees... it doesn't have a way to measure 135 degrees. So I'm in the market for a 135 degree "square". Any suggestions?

[Curt Putnam]

Bevel gauge and a protractor? Unless you are looking for machined accuracy. Can you not get to the other side of whatever and use a 45 on that?

[Jim Koepke]

Have you looked at the Stanley #16 mitre (miter) square?

305102

There are a few on ebay and other sources around the net. Try both spellings. They are also available from other makers and would have different model numbers.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I have the General Electronic Miter Gage. It works really well and I find it to be accurate.

http://www.sears.com/general-tools-sliding-digital-t-bevel/p-00903482000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&kpid=00903482000&kispla=00903482000P&kpid=00903482000&mktRedirect=y



Another option is to make one that suits your needs. A bit of scrap cherry or maple will make a nice one. You could make it the size that suits you.

A large 45 degree drafting triangle or a 12" speed square might sufice also.

[Jim Koepke]

I have the General Electronic Miter Gage. It works really well and I find it to be accurate.

http://www.sears.com/general-tools-sliding-digital-t-bevel/p-00903482000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&kpid=00903482000&kispla=00903482000P&kpid=00903482000&mktRedirect=y


That's almost as cheap as a decent one that has been around for a century.

jtk

[Hilton Ralphs]

These Japanese-Style Layout Squares (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=56715&cat=1,42936,42944) from Lee Valley are pretty good.

I have the 45+90 for use on my table saw and the best part is you get to upgrade to Metric if you so wish.

305113

[lowell holmes]

I also have 3 manual miter gages of different sizes, an adjustable triangle, General protractor and large drafting triangles. I do use the electronic gage frequently.:)

I would make a wooden 135 gage like the one you showed in a heartbeat if the need arises.

I do admire your gage. If you set the large miter gage with the blade at it's mid point and the blade at 45 degrees, it will make the same measurement.

[jamie shard]

Have you looked at the Stanley #16 mitre (miter) square?

305102



I have a similar style square made by Crown, I think. That's the one that's off by a few degrees. Ultimately, I was hoping to find more of an machinist/engineers square of a similar design, or perhaps just the 135 degree angle. If I'm not able to find one, I'll tune the Crown... but I'm looking for something more reliable/accurite.

If anyone has the David Charlesworth secret miter dovetail video... I'd be interested in the gauge he uses, but I'm not wedded to that design.

EDIT: thanks for linking to the Lee Valley japanese style squares, that might work too.

[Pat Barry]

So... I just checked the miter square (with a starrett miter square) I've been using for the past year and it's about a 1/16 out of alignment over 6 inches. Wow.

While the Starrett miter square works for 45 degrees... it doesn't have a way to measure 135 degrees. So I'm in the market for a 135 degree "square". Any suggestions?
Use the 45 degree angle with the miter gauge in the slot on the other side of the blade.

[jamie shard]

Use the 45 degree angle with the miter gauge in the slot on the other side of the blade.

I'm probably asking a silly question... are you saying use the blade against the reference surface and mark along the body of the square?

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'm probably asking a silly question... are you saying use the blade against the reference surface and mark along the body of the square?

What Pat is saying is that 45 degrees is marked (or measured) using the acute side of the rule (with the body of the gauge against the wood), whilst 135 degrees is found on the obtuse side.

[jamie shard]

I think using a square that way would be referencing off the other surface of the wood -- right? I think this make sense for machists with more accurite blocks of metal, but for neander woodworking I'm ideally trying to use only the main reference surface for marking, if that makes sense... That's what I like about the design of the Stanley #16 style miter square.

[lowell holmes]

I don't quite understand what this discussion is all about. A combination square will give you 90 degree, and 45 degree marks. Since the reciprocal of 45 degrees is 135 degrees, the combination square will give it to you. My Starrett combination square is dead on. I can see wanting a Stanley miter square because it is nice to look at.
If you are not getting true surfaces, the issue is not likely to be the combination square. Even the BORG squares are accurate.

Tri squares are another issue. If you buy one, you will have work on it to make it true, at least that has been my experience. I can see that a poorly prepared miter square would be inaccurart as well.

[Pat Barry]

I'm probably asking a silly question... are you saying use the blade against the reference surface and mark along the body of the square?
I assumed you were talking about setting the miter gauge to 45 deg and measuring that angle relative to the blade. For me this would typically be done with the miter gauge in the slot to the left of the blade. You want to measure 135 which has the miter gauge turned 45 degrees the other direction, right? Thats exactly the same as placing the miter gauge in the right hand slot. Now, I'm assuming the two miter gauge slots are parallel. I think that should normally be a good assumption

[lowell holmes]

305221


I guess the picture says it all.
I will make one from some cherry I have laying around.
I think the picture is self explanatory. The wood will be 3/8" thick in each part.
Total width of the handle will be 1 1/8"

[Joe Bailey]

That's what I like about the design of the Stanley #16 style miter square.

In that case, you might want to have a look at this Joseph Marples Trial 1 (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/J88.615.htm) model

[jamie shard]

Perfect, thanks Joe!


p.s. I still curious about the david charlesworth style square, so if anyone has a lead, be sure to post.

[lowell holmes]

Check the following link for an adjustable mitre square.

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-CCMS.XX

[Hilton Ralphs]

The square is quite reasonable here, 28.93 euro, which is about $ 32. Plus postage.

One supplier is Vogel. http://shop.vogel-germany.de/product_info.php?language=en&info=p3303_acute-angle-square-din-875--gg-2--135----200-mm-x-130-mm.html&=



They call it the "Acute Angle Square" which is wholly incorrect.

[Jim Koepke]

They call it the "Acute Angle Square" which is wholly incorrect.

Didn't catch that, I thought it said "A cute angle square."

Sorry for being obtuse...

On the other hand, I was thinking of suggesting a Stanley Odd Jobs:

305742

But the OP did make a comment about being dissatisfied with inaccuracy so I thought it might not be the best tool for their job.

jtk

[jamie shard]

One supplier is Vogel. http://shop.vogel-germany.de/product_info.php?language=en&info=p3303_acute-angle-square-din-875--gg-2--135----200-mm-x-130-mm.html&=

I use this square for all mitred work as it references from the face edge, i.e. the internal edge.

Wonderful, thank you David!

[jamie shard]

Wow, my google-fu is weak. I can't find a U.S. distributor or anyone selling a comparable product. Anybody have better luck?

[Tony Shea]

I do agree with the OP and david charlesworth that this square is certainly a valuable measuring tool. A 45 deg square just doesn't always fit the bill when dealing with miters as I often work from the inside edge as my reference when I want to deal with miters. This may not be the preferred method of most but there are times that I prefer working from the inside, especially if my widths of the stock I'm using are exactly the same. When gluing up a miter I want the inside surface flush and any discrepency in width on the outside where I can plane the pieces flush, if that makes any sense at all.

[Karl Fife]

The link above does not work, but I think it may be this product here: https://shop.vogel-germany.de/Squares/Hexagonal-and-Octagonal-Angles/With-back-315/Acute-Angle-Square-DIN-875--GG-2--135----120-mm-x-80-mm.html (https://shop.vogel-germany.de/Squares/Hexagonal-and-Octagonal-Angles/With-back-315/Acute-Angle-Square-DIN-875--GG-2--135----120-mm-x-80-mm.html)
Stainless

The Secret Mitre Dovetail is one of my favorite videos. Every word strikes me as being as carefully chosen as each movement of the hand work. I find it mesmerizing and inspiring. Having watched it several times, I find myself taking notice of little details in the background. For example, I notice that David's sharpening station is set up and ready to go (preventing procrastination). I' notice that his hand tools are 'out' at hand's reach, not in drawers, not in chests. I notice that he has more than one workbench, and that each bench has multiple supplemental task lights. I notice that David doesn't need all of his planes to be "top-shelf". For example, instead of a bronze Lie-Nielsen 102 in the background, I notice a modest iron Dictum 'pocket plane' of similar design. These small things are quite interesting to me.

David clearly has a love of precision tools, but he routinely turns to the elegant utility of low-tech things like shims of paper (combined with clever reasoning). It is in part due this practical approach that when David mentions a tool being a favorite, I take notice because I know it's a choice driven in large part by utility. Many years ago, David mentioned that he likes a particular hand brush for planes. This was a surprise to me because a hand brush seemed like a completely unnecessary accessory. I decided to buy it anyway, assuming there were probably reasons for liking it that I did not know. This was indeed true, and today there's not a day in my shop when I don't pick up that brush, and feel happy to have it.

Having said all of this, I too am curious about the 135° mitre square. I have often wished for the complimentary angle of my combination square so again I took note of this one. I am guessing that David's is the 120mm x 80mm size (gauging the relative size of the it in relation to other items in the video). Can anyone say if that is that right? The one linked above one carries Vogel's "Vmade" brand which appears to indicate that it is made for Vogel to their specification (e.g. China).

I would also love to know the origin of that blue sticky mat in the background on the sharpening station. I'm someone who can find things online, but have been unable figure out where that came from (if it's even available). DMT makes a non-skid mat for sharpening, but it's only 10x4.

While we're on the subject, I would also love to know the origin of the 375 gram hammer in the video. I've seen similar hammers carried by Dictum in Germany (Nomi Genno), and JapanWoodworker in the USA (Daruma Gennoh). Neither seem to be exactly the same tool as David is using here. In case he chose his for a reason I'd like to know what it is.

If David or anyone has input on these items, I would very much appreciate it.
Cheers!

[Derek Cohen]

Don't forget, the complimentary angle of 135 degrees is 45 degrees. You can use a combination square for both these angles ...

http://www.wonkeedonkeetools.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/3PS-Protractor-Sets/3ps-7/3PS-7-7.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

True enough, but the stock of the German engineers square is in a more convenient place, for some jobs. i.e. opposite side of blade.

This makes it more convenient for checking mitres, and marking out in most cases.

best wishes,
David

[Patrick Chase]

I think using a square that way would be referencing off the other surface of the wood -- right? I think this make sense for machists with more accurite blocks of metal, but for neander woodworking I'm ideally trying to use only the main reference surface for marking, if that makes sense... That's what I like about the design of the Stanley #16 style miter square.

Nobody's saying to use the other side of the workpiece - they're saying to use the other side of a sliding bevel or similar. If you use your "good" 45-deg reference to set one side of a sliding bevel then the other side will be at 180 - 45 = 135 deg.

EDIT: Wow, I totally missed that this was a zombie thread. Deleting my other posts...

[david charlesworth]

What is a zombie thread please?

David

[Tony Zaffuto]

Earlier in this thread, the Crown miter square was mentioned. I have one of those, purchased maybe 12 to 15 yeats ago. As with "try squares", those angles in which the stock is faced with a brass plate are generally accurate. Those sides without the plate are not. My Crown has the 45 degree angle accurate. The complimentary angle is horribly off, maybe 1/16", rendering the tool unusable, at least for me: I hate picking up a tool and having to remember it is half inaccurate.

[Lenore Epstein]

What is a zombie thread please?
A thread that died a natural death far in the past, usually resurrected unintentionally when someone takes an interest in an old thread they found in a search.

[david charlesworth]

Thank you Lenore!

David

[Karl Fife]

Another funny term related to zombie threads is "Necropost"

Necropost: Pronunciation: /ˌnekrəˈpōst
(Verb)
The act of posting to zombie thread.
(Noun)
The post which resurrects the zombie thread.

For the record, necropost is not a canonical term despite my attempt to be funny with the pronunciation guide. Neither is it a lexicographer's definition, rather, my own hack of a definition. :-)

[Tony Zaffuto]

For the sake of us that are getting long in the tooth, why not just say what something is?

[Lenore Epstein]

For the sake of us that are getting long in the tooth, why not just say what something is?
Because zombies are fun?

[Patrick Chase]

For the sake of us that are getting long in the tooth, why not just say what something is?

I think Karl's just really into that sort of thing. After all, it was his "necropost" that revived this thread.

It's OK Karl, we won't judge you here.

[Pat Barry]

For the sake of us that are getting long in the tooth, why not just say what something is?
What in the world is "long in the tooth"? How is it that you get long in the tooth?

[Jim Ritter]

Old age, receding gum lines. Mostly used in determining age with horses.
jim

[Karl Fife]

Another funny term related to zombie threads is "Necropost"


For the sake of us that are getting long in the tooth, why not just say what something is?


What in the world is "long in the tooth"? How is it that you get long in the tooth?

ROTFL: I love it! An idiomatic expression used to critique the use of another idiomatic expression, then misunderstood in the process! You couldn't make this stuff up!

And all in a positive spirit to boot. This forum is the best.

[Karl Fife]

Karl,
Your link and size are correct, thank you!

The sticky blue mats are great, as they are easy to keep clean and last for years. You can get them from Dycem. Tel 1-800 458 0060. Email; info@dycemusa.com here it is uk@dycem.com

The 375gm hammer is from Dictum. An earlier model and I polished the faces my self. I think Joel at tools for working wood has a similar one.

Best wishes,
David

Hi David.
I must say again that I appreciate the systematic, careful, and disciplined approach you bring to each step in any given process.

Your chisel sharpening video was a game-changer for me. I'd heard more than one well-known woodworking teacher say "Don't work the chisel back too long before re-flattening". Looking back, I think this vaguely-defined instruction to have been useless at best, especially for the target audience of students who may have two or three other problems happening concurrently. By contrast, your method, which counts the number of strokes between re-flattenings, and changes the direction of the scratch-pattern, is sufficiently rigorous that a sufficiently careful student can totally eliminate tool preparation as a problem. From that fundamental starting place, the student has the choice of fixing/developing his/her techniques, hopefully experiencing that moment when they first discover the amazing capability of the common chisel.

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you a chisel question, because you're a demonstrably process-oriented thinker. :-) It's about the physics of paring:

Last weekend, I carefully prepared an old 7" long, beveled-edge 1.5" Witherby socket chisel. I used it in part to make the world's largest marking gauge (see attached picture. I'm Kidding, but doesn't it remind you of that somewhat)? The picture is actually of a practice through-mortise for a wooden plane stop on a Roubo-style workbench. It's The biggest mortise I've ever had to finesse. The aforementioned Witherby was essential, however, despite it being dead-flat, I found it harder to take fine adjustments/shavings from mortise walls than with the nearly identical, but shorter (well-worn 3.5") bevel-edge Stanley socket-chisel. I might describe it as having been harder to make the Witherby chisel 'bite'. I suspect this is simple physics, in which the long Witherby blade (being longer, ergo more surface area) has more opportunity to "ride high" on any particular protruding feature in the wood. Both chisel backs had been prepared dead-flat per your method, and both had been verified as NOT dubbed on the cutting edge. I verified this by reflecting the straight lines of fluorescent lighting tubes above across the chisel's cutting edge at a 45° angle. The light remains straight, and does not bend like a fun-house mirror. Do you think I am on the right track with regard to understanding the difference in performance between these two chisels?

I suspect that a Japanese paring chisel, with its hollow-ground middle would not behave like the longer Witherby, not only because of being comparatively short in the blade, but also due to being hollow ground, thus less able to ride on high spots.

I also suspect that slightly *flexible* long paring blades of the traditional Sheffield and Blue-Spruce long paring chisels may ALSO not respond like my thin-yet-rigid Witherby chisel, nor like that of the Japanese chisels. As I read up on the methods and tools of pattern makers, it seems that this flexible nature evolved to allow one to finely adjust the 'bite' and depth of cut by flexing and/or applying pressure to the blade. Summed up nicely by a comment in this post:
http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/paring-chisels-any-thoughts/#comment-19884

Could I trouble you to share your thoughts, and perhaps even make a recommendation for an ideal paring chisel to use in this type of fine-fitting and paring of larger pieces hardwood (as well as cabinet work in general)? I don't currently own a set of paring chisels, but I now see the merit of keeping some key size/style chisels prepared with a comparatively low honing angle. In general, do you prefer the flexible long-blade land pattern-maker type methods, or do you prefer the Japanese-style paring chisel? Can you tell me what sizes and styles paring chisels you might recommend to a passionate engineer who wants to deeply develop his skills in these techniques?

It appears the Japanese paring chisels always have a canted blade with respect to the long handle. Are they typically canted enough such that the handle clears the work (like a framing slick) if placed on a flat surface?

When I prepared the Witherby, I played with low bevel angles with its O1 steel. I was surprised at how *sharply* (No pun intended) the edge durability tended to degrade below about 25°. I understand A2 steel to be slightly less tolerant of low bevel angles than O1. How do the Japanese *laminated* blades stack up in this regard?

I know this is a comparatively long-winded post, but I really do appreciate any thoughts you could share with me, and by extension, the sawmill creek community.

Thank you David!
-Karl Fife

p.s.
Love the blue mat!

[Jim Davis]

Why not just true up your miter square?

[david charlesworth]

Karl,

I have never had any long flexible pattern makers chisels, so cannot comment on them.

I very much like my Japanese long paring chisels and polish them at 32 degrees. Some are thicker than others but in general I feel they do not flex significantly.

Using a slightly smaller stick with soft pencil or soot? would help you to identify high spots.

If there was room I would consider using a block plane like the 60 1/2 or the rebate block plane. We have done this often in the past.
best wishes,
David

[Jim Davis]

Wrong thread???

[david charlesworth]

No, I was responding to Karl, about 4 posts up.

David

[Karl Fife]

David,
I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.



Using a slightly smaller stick with soft pencil or soot? would help you to identify high spots.
If there was room I would consider using a block plane like the 60 1/2 or the rebate block plane. We have done this often in the past.
David

This is very interesting, and it seems like it must be a very ancient technique.
As it happens, I can fit my rebate block plane into the mortise, so I'll be trying both of these techniques!



I very much like my Japanese long paring chisels and polish them at 32 degrees. Some are thicker than others but in general I feel they do not flex significantly.
David

Question about your Japanese paring chisels:
Can you tell me your current recommendation(s) for Japanese paring chisels? Lee Valley carries the Koyamaichi (usu) "push chisels" formerly only available directly from Japan. Tools For Working Wood carries Nishiki Kinari "extra-thin" paring chisels. Is there a something you like better? I don't mind spending extra money if necessary for functionally superior tools.

My current tasks will be best served by 36mm and 24mm widths, but can I ask which paring chisel sizes you find most useful in your varied work?

Finally, I notice that in of your videos, many of your fine Japanese chisels appear still to have what looks like original bluing on the primary bevel. Is this because they happen to be rather new, or am I missing something, perhaps having to do with them being made of soft iron laminated to the cutting steel, thus having a different appearance?

Thank you so much for all of the help and suggestions you've given me. It's been extremely helpful!
-Karl

[david charlesworth]

Karl,
The Nishiki thin paring from tfww should be very good, I have some others from him.

I have Koyamaichi paring chisels (Lee Valley) and they are very good.

I am very fond of 5/8", but this depends on the scale of your work..

All my chisels have been ground and sharpened many times. Sometimes I use black felt tip to show what is going on?

David