Fire! Festool CT22 vac

[John Piwaron]

I just had a most unpleasant thing happen. I was routing a mortise with my Festool OF2200 router connected to my Festool CT22 vac and during the process of making the mortise, the bag in the vac started on fire. Billowing smoke coming from it. Well, quick, out the door with that! The wood is new clean hard maple. No hidden metal, the bit is intact and it's tungsten carbide. What happened? I don't understand why it'd start on fire. I don't see anything to generate a spark. Yeah, I can see the fine dust in the bag being ready to go, but where's the source of ignition? And scratch one CT22 vac. That one has had it.

[mreza Salav]

that's scary. Did you notice any burning in your mortises? Maple is prone to burning quickly especially if the router bit isn't very sharp or if you go too slow. Very hot saw dust with a good flow of air could start it but they must have been super hot already...

[Kent A Bathurst]

Inspect the maple where your router was in the last minute of your extractor's life.

Maple is notorious for burning - whether with a TS, a DP, or a router - even a green kool-aid router. Especially when the cutting tool has moved to the downslope of the "sharp curve".

Do you see any scorch marks in the routed section?

My hypothesis is that some dust or chips got very very hot from the router bit contact with the wood. Hot enough to combust the fines, when they met up in the flex hose or the bag. I would first have guessed some inadvertent contact with metal that created spark[s], but you seem to have that ruled out.

Either that, or it is some hidden Machavellian Green feature that enforces planned obsolescence, and replacement with a newer model. :p

EDIT: Sorry - Mreza types faster than me - his post was not there when I started. Apologize for the duplication.

[Max Neu]

what about static, could that cause it?

[Dave Zellers]

Was this a plunge cut? Some router bits are not made for plunging, only coming at the cut from the side, and I have experienced burning until the depth is reached and the router is moving sideways. The result could be a tiny ember in your vac and no visible burn marks on the mortise after it is done.

[Keith Outten]

I would suspect the motor as the ignition source. I've never heard of a fire starting from chips from a hand held router, at least there has never been one reported here in almost eleven years. There have been incidents of CNC Routers starting fires when the router bit gets dull or breaks from excessive routing speeds. There have been several fires reported that started in shop vacs that were being used for CNC work. Shop vacs are not designed to run for extended periods of time as they will eventually overheat and often catch on fire.

Check your vac motor.
.

[Harvey Miller]

Post pictures on the Festool owners group site. They worry about these things. They will try their darndest to to make you forget your vacuum tried to burn your shop down.

[Myk Rian]

what about static, could that cause it?
Let's not drag that dead horse out of the sawdust.

[John Piwaron]

I doubt static, I use an anti- static hose. No Dust Deputy. The bit can plunge. It's a Whiteside 7/8" dia carbide spiral, the up/down one. I cut the large mortises for the Benchcrafted X. When I looked, the only place it burned was the bag area. The plastic holding the hepa filters melted and let them go. Hepa filters are burned. Bad technique? I don't know, I was working about the same as always. Maple does burn easy, easier than cherry even. My other favorite. The corners are burned, but that's where I have to slow down to change direction. It (the vac), was behind me, so I didn't see the trouble brewing. Another couple of minutes and I wouldn't have been able to pick it up and get it out of the house. In the end, it worked out o.k. except for losing an expensive vac.

[John Piwaron]

Oh yeah, I believe the bit is sharp. I had the speed dialed back to 3.

[Ted Calver]

John, Maybe you can do a postmortem autopsy and see if you can spot an ignition source. Sorry to hear such a high end vac had a problem. I think Keith is probably right.

[pat warner]

Embedded metal maybe, have seen bullets, rocks, steel fragments, busted carbide etc. Doesn't take much under the right combustible conditions.

[James Nugnes]

Not enough info as yet but if I had to guess based on the bare bones so far....vac motor overheating and in the throws of its own death spiral tried to take you with it.

[John Piwaron]

I really don't see buried anything in the wood. Plus, if I had hit something, an old nail, a rock or whatever, I'm sure it would have damaged the cutter. The cutter looks as good now as ever. No chips or missing anything. The cutter started out clean. When I finished, eventually, it still wasn't especially dirty. I made the cut in 4 passes, the cutter/router wasn't working especially hard.

[Rod Sheridan]

I really don't see buried anything in the wood. Plus, if I had hit something, an old nail, a rock or whatever, I'm sure it would have damaged the cutter. The cutter looks as good now as ever. No chips or missing anything. The cutter started out clean. When I finished, eventually, it still wasn't especially dirty. I made the cut in 4 passes, the cutter/router wasn't working especially hard.

Is the motor on the vacuum OK?

If so the issue is with a hot chip winding up in the vacuum......................Rod.

[Mike Cutler]

I'm with Rod, Some hot chips ended up in the vac. Continuous air flow and there you go.
The source of the ignition, I suspect, is your tungsten carbide bit. Depending on the cut, I can easily see tungsten carbide getting hot enough to be an ignition point. Tungsten carbide has properties that normal steel does not. Heat tolerance beyond the point of plastic deformation of normal steels, being one of them. It has twice the modulus of steel. Good Stuff!!!

[John Piwaron]

Is the motor on the vacuum OK?

If so the issue is with a hot chip winding up in the vacuum......................Rod.

Don't know about the vac as it stands right now. What I *do* know is that it's not in the house anymore. I'll look at it a little more tonight if only for the purpose of seeing if the motor will run.

[Rob Damon]

Do a search on one of the big search engines: "Are the festool vacs rated for continuous use" and you will get a hit for a discussion thread on the Festool owners group. (I would give you a directly link to the specific discussion thread, but I can't remember if it is ok to do it on this forum.)

I have been using a CT-22 for nearly 6 years almost on a daily basis and have been running it with the Dust deputy for the past couple of years. My shop relative Humidity is generally between 30-40 percent and static shocks are pretty common. I have over a dozen and a half Festool tools that get used and I have not had any issues.

They can be run for long periods of time. What seems to burn them out quicker is the "on/off/on/off/on/off/etc" short cycling. I have a three-way cord plugged into my CT-22. The tool gets plugged into one and a small light that hangs on the boom arm is plugged into the other. If I am going to be doing a lot of quick cuts on say the Kapex, I just switch on the light and let the vac run continuous. If I am using a sander that will be running for 10-15 minutes while sanding multiple parts, I let the tool control the vac.

The vacuum/motor is downstream of the bag. So if the fire/smoke was in the bag it had to come from an external source (router debris).

I have only seen sparking issues with wood if someone at the lumber yard removed the manufacturers stapled tag with a lot barcode and left part of the staple stuck in the wood.

Just curious, but can you take some photos of the inside of the vac showing the damage?

[Bryan Cowing]

I have had maple chips ignite, routing hand holds on a cutting board. I suspected the dull carbide cove bit was to blame. I should have had it sharpened professionally, but tried sharpening it myself. I remember when hand holding the router and using that bit, the chips flying off onto my arm were hot. I had the bit in my router table to do the stopped hand holds, no vacuum on the fence, just letting the chips accumulate in the fence's vac port. 2 minutes later, smoke was rising out of the fences vac port.

[Greg R Bradley]

Festool add Fein vacs don't have a way for an overheated motor to start the chips/dust on fire. Also, the motors are cooled by separate airflow. They will take continuous use and completely stalled airflow. That is why they can be used for hold down tables that have no airflow.

I think you will find that all modern mid range shop vacs have the motor after the filters, which means they wouldn't set the chips/dust on fire even if you manage to overheat the motors.

I'm not sure that is even possible with the lowest end units unless you set the filter on fire first.

[Rick Fisher]

The CT-22 .. isn't that the model that wasn't CSA approved ?

:)

[Mike Heidrick]

Need pictures.

[Larry Frank]

I think you should contact Festool right away. I have had very good service from them and certain that they will want to help investigate.

[John Piwaron]

I have an update.

I was too upset to call Festool. Not angry upset, just that the impact of a fire starting in it while I was using it didn't set in until the middle of the night afterwards. Because my shop is tiny, the spot I was standing on to route the mortise in my work piece is kind of one way in. The vac was behind me. Had it burned for even another minute or two, I'd have been trapped. Looking back, it would seem that turning the router off might have been the best thing to do. It turns off the air flow. Now the fire is starved for air.

But my wife called for me. I wrote a detailed story of what happened and then demonstrated to her how I was working. So she, as a relatively uninvolved person called and spoke to a supervisor/manager there. They kicked her up the food chain right away. Apparently I am the only person to date to call and report a fire in one of their vacs. They want to see it. They have made no promises of repair or replacement. They just want to see it and go from there.

They asked if I was using a spark arrestor. I was not. I had no idea those existed. Had I known of them I would have had one. It's a safety thing. After my accidents years ago with losing the ends of a couple of fingers, I like safety. I would have bought that had I known it existed and why.

Someone said that the tool decided it was a good day to die. And take some people with it. Funny, but quite possibly the literal truth.

So Festool will be getting the vac back. I don't know what'll come of it. I do know that before I send it to them, I'll be taking plenty of pix to document what happened to it.

[John Piwaron]

I have had maple chips ignite, routing hand holds on a cutting board. I suspected the dull carbide cove bit was to blame. I should have had it sharpened professionally, but tried sharpening it myself. I remember when hand holding the router and using that bit, the chips flying off onto my arm were hot. I had the bit in my router table to do the stopped hand holds, no vacuum on the fence, just letting the chips accumulate in the fence's vac port. 2 minutes later, smoke was rising out of the fences vac port.

Do you recall how the cut looked? Were the surfaces burned?

[Larry Frank]

I think that Festool will take care of you and I am certain that they do a full analysis.

Some questions for everyone ...where in your shop are your fire extinguishers, are they in working shape, will they handle all types of fires and can you get to them quickly? Fires in a workshop can be electrical, flammable fluids, or combustibles.

Do you have a working smoke or heat alarm?

Maybe I am a little nuts or overly careful but fire potential in a shop is high and one should have a plan.

[Rod Sheridan]

Nope, all good points Larry.

I inspect my extinguisher monthly, it's located at the exit to the shop.

I also have a smoke detector and emergency lighting in the shop.............Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

The CT-22 .. isn't that the model that wasn't CSA approved ?

:)

Mine was called the "Midi", I think that was different from the CT22?

Regards, Rod.

P.S. Every time I carry the CT26 up the stairs I wish I had the Midi.

[Paul Hingco]

The 2200 draws a lot of current. 18 Amps at full load. Add to that the draw from the ct, and it could easily go over 20 amps. Not sure if that could have caused the fire but just a thought. I personally plug the 2200 on a different circuit and just use the ct on manual.

[Brian W Smith]

Am sure Festool will,"make it right".

But the reason for post was,besides a big +1 for Larry's........Have to say,the very first thing that popped into my pea brain was,wonder how his fire plan worked out?

Best of luck with all this,and am glad your health/shop is OK,BW.

[John Piwaron]

It's on the way back. It's out of warranty, but the manager sent a prepaid label anyway. No promises that they'll repair or replace.

As to fire extinguishers, one of those wouldn't have helped. The fire was still inside it. But it was rapidly filling my shop with a lot of smoke. That was a more immediate problem. Breathing apparatus would have been helpful.

As it is, I got it out. I dumped the contents onto the drive. They were smoldering. I couldn't have left them inside without the whole vac eventually melting or burning. As far as the smell goes, I got a super duper air cleaner. The smell is almost gone now. Of course this air cleaner will be useful in other rooms for other purposes too.

For me, the fundamental problem remains. Not knowing exactly how it ignited. Exactly what the ignition source was. I'm positive I didn't hit anything. No metal, no stones, nothing. It's a puzzle to me.

[James Zhu]

It's on the way back. It's out of warranty, but the manager sent a prepaid label anyway. No promises that they'll repair or replace.

As to fire extinguishers, one of those wouldn't have helped. The fire was still inside it. But it was rapidly filling my shop with a lot of smoke. That was a more immediate problem. Breathing apparatus would have been helpful.

As it is, I got it out. I dumped the contents onto the drive. They were smoldering. I couldn't have left them inside without the whole vac eventually melting or burning. As far as the smell goes, I got a super duper air cleaner. The smell is almost gone now. Of course this air cleaner will be useful in other rooms for other purposes too.

For me, the fundamental problem remains. Not knowing exactly how it ignited. Exactly what the ignition source was. I'm positive I didn't hit anything. No metal, no stones, nothing. It's a puzzle to me.

Festool must be very concerned. Since what you did was not abnormal, this mean it could happen to anyone. It sounds to me a design flaw in the Festool dust extractor. I think they probably will send you a new one.

Let us know the result.

[Larry Frank]

Design flaw????..they have been selling the dust extractor for quite awhile and I have not heard of any other similar issues. These were originally in Europe and they have tough regulations. Jumping on design flaw is just a bit premature.

I just opened up my CT26 and have no idea how something from motor or electrical could get in the dust bag without melting a lot of the case.

I did a search for fires in vacuums in a workshop and much to my surprise there were no hits except this thread. I thought that this would be a more frequent issue.

If it were mine, I would take it down to Lebanon, IN and watch them do the inspection.

[Rod Sheridan]

Festool must be very concerned. Since what you did was not abnormal, this mean it could happen to anyone. It sounds to me a design flaw in the Festool dust extractor. I think they probably will send you a new one.

Let us know the result.

Highly unlikely, although not impossible.

This is the first fire anyone has heard about, and it happened in a part of the vacuum with no moving or electrical parts.

A chip was proabably hot enough to ignite in the airflow of the vacuum, exactly as happens in dust collector fires in some cases.

I do however agree that Festool will probably treat the OP well, they generally do.

regards, Rod.

[John Piwaron]

I did a search on vacuums catching on fire and came across a couple of them. I saw a picture of an Oreck upright vac completely enveloped in fire. I also saw several links to a story about a shop vac aboard a US nuclear submarine that caught on fire and caused $400 million in damage. I have no idea at all about how either of those other two things happened. About all it's telling me is that it's not impossible for vacuum cleaners to start on fire. Very very highly unlikely? Sure. Totally impossible? No.

[James Nugnes]

I don't have any idea how the Festool is designed. But all products of that type should have a cut off in the switch that cuts the power if the motor starts to overheat. I suppose there are some that don't have such a cutoff and I further suppose that a cutoff could fail allowing the motor to just continue to overheat until meltdown unless somebody shuts it off.

That said, I don't think they would want to see it if the issue was categorically without question a hot ember working its way into the dust collection bag. But that would always seem the most likely possibility wouldn't it? Was the OP ever able to get a look at the motor, the switch, wiring etc. While I am asking, once Festool said they wanted to look at it, I would not have attempted to open up a thing myself. Would have just left it to them at that point.

[Kent A Bathurst]

A chip was probably hot enough to ignite in the airflow of the vacuum, exactly as happens in dust collector fires in some cases.

That was my initial idea / post.

I have changed my opinion. The OP's workshop has a subterranean deposit of rare Unobtainium, that creates a lens effect of cosmic rays. The Festool vac, just by happenstance, was sitting right in the direct line of the focused rays.

So - just don't let it sit there in the future. And - don't forget to wear the tin foil hat.

[johnny means]

Routing maple and dust collection is something I would automatically check for smoldering. Over the years I've seen plenty of cabinet saws and dust collectors turn into woodstoves. Any other explanation is a Redd Herring.

[Phil Thien]

Routing maple and dust collection is something I would automatically check for smoldering. Over the years I've seen plenty of cabinet saws and dust collectors turn into woodstoves. Any other explanation is a Redd Herring.

First time I've heard of maple igniting this easily.

I'm quite honestly stunned that people seem so quick to point to the routing + maple as the explanation.

I've been reading this forum as well as others for years now and have never seen someone mention that routing maple is a fire hazard.

[johnny means]

Think about it. One small ember in pile of very fine tinder (or a paper bag), with a very healthy helping of air. Pretty much what they taught us in the Boy Scouts.

[Kent A Bathurst]

First time I've heard of maple igniting this easily.

I'm quite honestly stunned that people seem so quick to point to the routing + maple as the explanation.

I've been reading this forum as well as others for years now and have never seen someone mention that routing maple is a fire hazard.

Phil - legit point. I don't know that maple does ignite this easily. I know that the OP absolutely swears there were no hard objects in play - metal, stone, etc.. I know that maple is prone to burning, even with sharp blades/cutters, and while I have never seen flaming/glowing bits thrown off, the wood can still get smoking hot [BTW - the OP has never posted photos of the cut-in-play when the conflagration began].

And, so, I devolved to the misspent hours of my youth, and my love of Sherlock Holmes. In this case, as per The Sign of Four:

"....when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...."


So - Phil - your theory is????

Mebbe a second sniper on the Grassy Knoll? :p :p

[Larry Frank]

Based on the fact that the OP emptied the dust bag it will be difficult to fully investigate. I would have had my phone out taking pics or video.

Festool will no doubt look at scorch/fire marks and full investigate the electrics.

On a kind of side note...given all the dust and chips in a shop and heat generated at time cutting, routing, drilling etc it is amazing that there are not more fires.

[Phil Thien]

Phil - legit point. I don't know that maple does ignite this easily. I know that the OP absolutely swears there were no hard objects in play - metal, stone, etc.. I know that maple is prone to burning, even with sharp blades/cutters, and while I have never seen flaming/glowing bits thrown off, the wood can still get smoking hot [BTW - the OP has never posted photos of the cut-in-play when the conflagration began].

And, so, I devolved to the misspent hours of my youth, and my love of Sherlock Holmes. In this case, as per The Sign of Four:

"....when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...."


So - Phil - your theory is????

Mebbe a second sniper on the Grassy Knoll? :p :p

I don't really have a theory. I'm not going to jump to any conclusions here. I think Festool should be given a chance to investigate. They undoubtedly have engineering staff in the US, or visiting engineers from Germany, perhaps they will let us know what they find.

And for the record, I'm not dismissing the possibility it was induced by maple being machined. I'm just saying the reaction of so many here, that it is obvious that it was the maple being routed, seems insane to me. If maple being routed was an ignition source, few of us would have shops left.

I will tell you this, and I'm not kidding: I will be sourcing a smoke alarm to place near my separator and vac today. If nothing else, this thread has reminded me that there are dangers in this hobby and we need to take precautions.

[John Gornall]

The smoke alarms in my house and shop are interconnected wirelessly so that if one goes off they all go off. I have had the alarm in my shop go off at 3:00 AM and I wouldn't hear it if it was solo but when a few more go off including the one just outside the bedroom door, I'm up and downstairs in about 10 seconds. Left a soldering iron plugged in and the flux smoked a little. I now turn off the main switch when I leave my shop for the night. Alarms are by Kidde. I also have a large fire extingusher beside the door OUTSIDE my shop so I can grab it on the way in if needed.

[James Zhu]

The smoke alarms in my house and shop are interconnected wirelessly so that if one goes off they all go off. I have had the alarm in my shop go off at 3:00 AM and I wouldn't hear it if it was solo but when a few more go off including the one just outside the bedroom door, I'm up and downstairs in about 10 seconds. Left a soldering iron plugged in and the flux smoked a little. I now turn off the main switch when I leave my shop for the night. Alarms are by Kidde. I also have a large fire extingusher beside the door OUTSIDE my shop so I can grab it on the way in if needed.

Based on the electrical code, the smoke and carbon monoxide alarms in the house are powered by the same electrical circuit, otherwise it is a code violation. One goes off, all go off.

[John Gornall]

Depends of course on the code in your jurisdiction and the vintage of your building. Mine needed help.

I worry about fire and had an interesting conversation with my insurance guy. I suggested an automatic sprinkler system and he said he would cancel my insurance if installed. He said there's more insured damage from water with accidental sprinkler activations than fire damage. I then suggested a manual sprinkler system that could be turned on by valve if needed - he's going to get back to me on that.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I just came across this thread (now on page 3). From post #1 I had a feeling we would read that Festool would want to see the vac. Did you receive an RMA number along with the return label? If you have the RMA you should be able to follow up on the case. Even if they don't repair or replace, you may get to find out the cause.

I have experienced a vacuum burning up. It was a 110V dust buster style vacuum attached to a PCB milling machine. We attributed the problem to prolonged run times and lack of airflow. After attaching a new one with a new bag we noticed how quiet it was and quickly it grew loader and and got hotter. After changing bags, the noise and temperature dropped and then began to climb again. We believe the super fine dust we were vacuuming was plugging up the tiny bag (not much larger than a quart ziploc) and restricting airflow through the vacuum and at the same time making the motor work harder. We changed to a small shop vac with a cloth covered filter. We changed the cloth cover often and never had the problem again.

I hope you or they are able to let us know what went wrong. I'm sorry for them (and you) if it was an internal one-off issue. On the other hand, it may be something we (people of the WW community) should be aware of or diligent in doing to prevent this in the future.

[peter gagliardi]

I'm betting it's nothing to do with the vac. I hate to say it, but it most likely is caused by operated conditions. The vac drawing in fresh air just aggravated the hot, burnt chips from routing. IF the bit was really sharp, and IF there was zero metal, and IF the speed was dialed back, the only thing left is operator error in using way too slow a feed rate. All of this equipment is engineered and designed assuming proper use, and in that instance there is very little risk of this happening.
My guess is it is a combination of several factors- the bit was not truly sharp,sharp, the tool was spinning too fast, for the feed rate applied.
Too slow of a feed rate generates enormous heat, as evidenced by the burning you see.
To be fair, some operations simply cannot be done without some slight burning.
I have quite a few Festool products- some of them are excellent, some I should have left on the store shelf- poorly thought out and operationally deficient, but...
I think it is a bit unfair to publicly post something like this without all the facts- essentially throwing a good company- any company "under the bus" publicly without giving a chance for the investigation to run its course, and have a clearer picture of the facts.
I am glad however, that you were able to catch this without threat to life or limb before too late!

[Phil Thien]

Someone E-Mailed me a link to a picture on another site showing some embers from routing (I think it was maple). It was over at the bt3central.com site. A recent post I think, in a thread about cyclones vs. my separators.

[John Piwaron]

Who's throwing anyone under the bus? I reported what happened. Nothing more. I reprted the plain facts as they were. Next, had I *NOT* opened and dumped the contents of the bag, that vac would have smoldered for hours, possibly burning and melting out on my drive. I cast no blame on anyone.

I do have pictures of the damage. Taken the following day. I've not posted them pending a call or follow up from Festool.

I also have no expectations of anything as a result of this. The vac has gone back to Festool who will look at it and may or may not repair or replace. It *is* an expensive item, I hope they choose to give me a replacement.

[Mike Cutler]

John

You absolutely did not throw any company under a bus.
It would have stunned me if Festool did not want the vac returned for analysis.
In the end it could be any number of things, but to a company it represents liability to not understand the cause of the issue, even if it proves to not be their own. (I still believe it is a combination of Tungsten Carbide and the wood creating a hot particle, and the air flow just fanned it to a flame.)
I looked at the spark arrestors on their page and they seem to indicate that they are for metal work with their line of vacuums. They wouldn't appear to work with a router.
You did them, and other woodworkers a good service.
As a Festool owner. Thank You