Thinking of finally taking the plunge and selling the power tools....(Long)

[Greg Berlin]

Ok, let me preface by saying that when I first got into woodworking, I started buying up every power tool there was (Mostly craigslist buys) and every nifty jig from taper jigs to dovetail guides to router bits, etc. In growing up in a house where my dad had essentially one main power tool in his shop (Not a woodworker, but a DIY handman contruction type shop.), a radial arm saw and then occasionally an old makita 10" miter saw, I had a love for power tools. For christmas and birthdays as I got older, my parents would buy me power tools. Miter saws, a cheap table saw, power drills, etc etc. I was raised in a world where things weren't done by hand. I had the impression that power tools were way more accurate and faster than any hand tool could ever be. I'm sure, most beginner woodworkers assume that's the case before they find the light of hand tools. I started getting into woodworking naturally from having these tools and wanting to build a few things around the house. My first projects were crude made with mostly plywood or mdf and then basically nailed together. It's what opened the door. It became exciting. I wanted to learn more. I started reading magazines and watching videos and reading forums and started buying up all the power tools I could find. It started with a $75 Delta contractor saw, then a $150 grizzly bandsaw, then a $250 Ryobi lunch box planer (bought new on sale), then a little 6" really old craftsman jointer which I sold and then upgraded to an 8" delta DJ-20 jointer which I installed a shelix cutterhead for, and the list goes on and on and on. I can't tell you how much money and time and effort I wasted restoring older power tools that made my 400 sq ft garage seem like a storage closet in size by the time I crammed it all in there. I ran 240v electric out there even.
Then I went to a woodworking show loaded with power tools to stumble across little humble Paul Sellers over in the corner. I watched him as he assembled his bench and created a shooting board for his presentation all with hand tools. I watched in amazement. No miter saws?? No routers? No table saws?? How is this possible?? I sat in on the 30 min presentation and my life with woodworking was forever changed. I bought his book and video series and I went straight home.
So 3 years later, here I am, pretty much a neander woodworker. My jointer with it's fancy shelix cutter head sits behind my bench and serves two purposes: storage of junk, and occasionally I use one of the flat beds to affix sandpaper too and restore old hand planes. My table saw has been out of the shop for almost a year now and moved to my work warehouse where it also serves as a nice flat surface to store crap on. And the miter saw (which occasionally gets used here at the work warehouse to quickly cut down whatever) is also not in my home shop. Even the bandsaw sees little use (mainly because it's not a great one and adjusting it for a cut is not great. It could use an upgrade, but because it's finicky to set up, I hardly use it as well. Now my rhand saws see more and more work. And my hand planes stay sharp and dimension boards to a clean and smooth finish essentially ready for finish after glue up. My jointer and lunch box planer and dust collector all take up valuable room!
So after my looooooong story which I'm sure is similar to most neander woodworkers in todays world, I'm thinking of selling all these items and just investing the money from the sale of them into one good new bandsaw (which I think would get more use if it was a better model). Part of me is scared to take the plunge because I keep thinking, "What if??? What if I need them?? What if??" But the more practical side of me is thinking "They're taking up valuable room!!" The truth is, the more I work with hand tools and saw by hand and hand plane, the faster and more efficient I become with them and the less I feel like I need the power tools to compensate for the work I'm not great at. I'm in no means GREAT at any woodworking I do, I'm still a beginning by a long shot, but I find I continually get better and better and faster and faster to where it's becoming more and more second nature. Not to mention the pure safety of it plus the great reduction in noise and dust is wonderful!
So after my long post which should have a been blog somewhere because of length, I'm thinking I'm going to take the plunge and sell them off and force myself to never have to double think about "What if I need them??" It's a tough decision!

[Jim Koepke]

Greg,

Welcome to the Cave by the Creek. If you have mentioned where you are located in the past, I have forgotten.

To me there isn't a problem with the length of your post. You were neither redundant nor boring. The story as you said is common to many. Throughout life it has seldom been my lot to be one of the many. My shop has never had many power tools. Other than a few electric hand tools my power tools are a band saw, drill press and a lathe.

A bandsaw is a most useful tool. Mine is an old yellow plastic 10" el cheapo. It was problematic until I watched a video about centering the tooth line on the crown of the wheels instead of trying to center the blade on the wheel. Also George Wilson made a comment on using the bandsaw that sounds strange, but it clicked with me. Something about making a cut with a bandsaw as if you were making love to the bandsaw. He also made a comment about sharpening/stoning the teeth to improve results. As with you, one of my future purchases will likely be a quality bandsaw. My current one has its limit at resawing a 6" piece.

I used to work with a "power tool guy." He was often going on about how his planer could remove a 1/16" in a single pass. He also wanted me to sharpen his blades for him since his planer wouldn't work with the dull blades he had at the time. I have since discovered a person could pick up some extra cash if they wanted to sharpen planer blades for power tool users.

My only suggestion would be to try and work with the bandsaw. It will be good for you to discover that it can be set up since it will help with your new bandsaw. If it has some deficiency then it can help you to avoid it in your new bandsaw. You may want to tune up all of you power tools so they demo well when a potential buy comes to "kick the tires." After all, a potential buyer would rather hear you are getting a bigger bandsaw because the one you have isn't big enough for your bigger needs instead of you are selling it because it never worked properly.

You can always tell potential buyers you have something better on the way as a replacement instead of saying you don't want those noisy, dust making, electron killing machines in your shop anymore.

Good luck and show us some pics of your projects.

jtk

[Shawn Pixley]

I personally, don't think that it is an either / or situation. Me, I. Am a hybrid woodworker. Yes I can do things all by hand, but I find it more enjoyable to perform various tasks subject to my interest and the capabilities of the tool in question. Ripping a lot of wood is where the tablesaw excels. The idea of spending most of the day ripping wood by hand is not terribly appealing. I don't have a tailed jointer and almost never use my planer.

I probably spend 75-80% of my time in the shop with hand tools, but I feel no compulsion to ditch all my power tools.

[Pat Barry]

If those tools are sitting there unused (jointer, planer, radial arm saw in particular) then I think selling you bandsaw and those three things in order to buy a better bandsaw is a great idea and you should go for it. Personally, I don't have a jointer and haven't seen the need but the tablesaw is something I just can't see myself parting with

[Simon MacGowen]

From Sam Maloof to Tage Frid to James Krenov and other giants, they all used power tools and hand tools. Modern hand-tool users like Frank Klausz, Rob Cosman and even Paul Sellers (for jointing and thicknessing, for example) use power tools all the time. Unless your power tools are junk and don't produce good cuts or you must recover space, you can keep them as long as you wish while exploring the use of hand tools. Getting rid of your power tools doesn't necessarily mean you will be better in your hand skills...but it does mean you will be less efficient in certain tasks (e.g. in stock preparation).

Simon

[Roger Rettenmeier]

+1 to Shawns comment. I am also a hybrid WW. The tablesaw and planer will both get a workout when time is of the essence. I avoid them as much as possible because of the dust and noise. I have a 20x 20 shop with a loft, so I will not be adding any more power tools, they already have a large enough footprint in my shop.

[Judson Green]

I too was a power tool guy till a few years ago and these days have a bandsaw, lathe, and mortiser. Also I have a small table saw but mine like yours is doing duty as a counter. The only power tool I'd like to have is a lunch box planer.

Years ago I wouldn't have even considered hand tools, I thought of them as fuddy duddy.

In full disclosure, I also have a ton of routers and other power tools but those are in the back of a closet, haven't touched em in years.

[Chris Hachet]

I am a hybrid woodworker. In my shop I have a miter saw, table saw, band saw, scroll saw, and morticer. I do a lot of work by hand... However I have no desire to use my bad Axe and bontz saws on treated lumber. Hence power tools as I build more than furniture.

To me power tools make sense in building some sorts of stuff like mission style furniture that was made with mostly power tools.

[Winton Applegate]

Thinking of finally taking the plunge and selling the power tools

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Sorry
I freaked out there.
I have a hard time letting go of any cool tool I can get my mits on. I love machines too.
Look at it this way . . . if nothing else they keep the shop from blowing away in a high wind.

[David Ragan]

I can speak to filling your shop w everything u can possibly get your hands on-i had stuff everywhere, even hanging in heavy duty bags from rafters when walls filled up. I was envious of folks who had walls you could see in the shop
i started getting rid of-RAS, standing sanders, huge scrap bin, central vac enclosure, lumber stored horiz on walls, under rafters, etc etc etc
So, i moved a bunch of stuff out of main shop andi took over another basement room about 14' square-the amount of lumber is unbelievable i had all over the basement-now stored vertically now in bins along the wall of the new lumber room-a mini lumber yard.....and i can actually get to it!!!
the amount of space freed up is awesome- shop only 17' square
so-yes, i am very happy to 86 equipment and some junk i don't use
but-as has been said, who wants to spend hours busting it just to show a board can be ripped by hand?
****i will admit i absolutely equate use of handtools as a spiritual experience, connecting us w all kinds of esoteric and unseen forces......however, i usually find myself flipping the power switch
if you dont use it, and dont like it, and need the space, 86 it

[Chris Hachet]

I am thinking about keeping my table saw but moving it out of the center of my shop. It does spend much more time as a place to set hand tools than it does cutting wood!

[Jim Matthews]

I would not advise you to sell any tool for the first year of your new approach.

These things are already paid for, and unless you're desperate for cash -
selling them won't reclaim much space or cash.

I suggest you start out the new approach in the following manner.

Put a piece of masking tape over the business end of each power tool.
Mark it with the current date.

Each time the tool gets used, replace that tape with a new piece
and mark it with the date it was used.

At the end of a year - sell the tools with the oldest date marked.

[Chris Hachet]

I would not advise you to sell any tool for the first year of your new approach.

These things are already paid for, and unless you're desperate for cash -
selling them won't reclaim much space or cash.

I suggest you start out the new approach in the following manner.

Put a piece of masking tape over the business end of each power tool.
Mark it with the current date.

Each time the tool gets used, replace that tape with a new piece
and mark it with the date it was used.

At the end of a year - sell the tools with the oldest date marked.

This seems entirely rational.

Chris

[Patrick Harper]

Greg, where are you located? If you're thinking about selling that DJ-20, let me know ;-)

[Mike williams54]

I have a very similar story, I've always wanted to build a little wood shop but never had a garage, so I just started collecting power tools that I thought I needed and storing them, finally got a house with a two car garage and set them up, then I bought a fence to replace mine that cracked on my table saw and it came with a couple old Stanley hand planes, that's when it went down hill, it's just so much more pleasant working with hand tools, I still use the power tools for some things, like milling a log I found, but I did joint one of the edges by hand, and cut it to length with my $3 Disston crosscut that I found at a Restore. So, the power tools come in handy for big jobs like that, it would've taken me days to rip a log by hand. And I don't have a proper bench for hand tools. That's going to be my first project. I've read two books on the anatomy and building of old benches. It should be a somewhat difficult project, but at the same time a little forgiving, IE: large joints, and inexpensive wood.

[Chris Hachet]

I have a very similar story, I've always wanted to build a little wood shop but never had a garage, so I just started collecting power tools that I thought I needed and storing them, finally got a house with a two car garage and set them up, then I bought a fence to replace mine that cracked on my table saw and it came with a couple old Stanley hand planes, that's when it went down hill, it's just so much more pleasant working with hand tools, I still use the power tools for some things, like milling a log I found, but I did joint one of the edges by hand, and cut it to length with my $3 Disston crosscut that I found at a Restore. So, the power tools come in handy for big jobs like that, it would've taken me days to rip a log by hand. And I don't have a proper bench for hand tools. That's going to be my first project. I've read two books on the anatomy and building of old benches. It should be a somewhat difficult project, but at the same time a little forgiving, IE: large joints, and inexpensive wood.


...and once you build your first bench and use it, you will know what you do not like about it. You will like your second bench much better, methinks.

[Mike williams54]

Well, my first bench, old kitchen counter and cabinets from a remodel years ago, has basically set my benchmark, it needs to be built from... Real wood, with a vise or two. I'm going for the roubo design, I think the nicholsen one?( the really simple made out of construction grade with an apron and no vises) would be easiest, but What kind of person would I be if I took the easy route.. It shouldn't be too hard, I have a book.. Haha

[Patrick Harper]

Mike, I'm currently doing a roubo build out of construction lumber. Some tasks are tedious, but it isn't too hard. So far, I have four large beams glued up for the top. I've started jointing the faces by hand and I should be ready to glue the whole top up soon. Let me know if you have any questions.

[John Sanford]

This seems entirely rational.

Chris

Entirely too rational. It's a trap!!

[Mike williams54]

Thanks for the offer Patrick! I may need to take you up on that when I get started. What type(s) of vise are you going to use? I'm using alder, I already bought a ton of 12/4, I used it because it was the cheapest route. About 1.80 bd/ft. It was that or construction grade Doug fir. Couldn't find any SYP in utah, which I hear is a good bench material.

[Chris Hachet]

Well, my first bench, old kitchen counter and cabinets from a remodel years ago, has basically set my benchmark, it needs to be built from... Real wood, with a vise or two. I'm going for the roubo design, I think the nicholsen one?( the really simple made out of construction grade with an apron and no vises) would be easiest, but What kind of person would I be if I took the easy route.. It shouldn't be too hard, I have a book.. Haha

That old bench will make an awesome glue up and assembly table though. Laminate is easy to clean after you make a mess. Alder should also make a really nice bench....it is expensive here in Ohio but much cheaper out west where you live.

Chris

[Peter Evans]

I belong to a woodworkers association that has an excellent workshop, with quality large power tools. In my garage I have a pretty ordinary drill press that gets a lot of use, and a vintage scroll saw I use for cutting saw handles (otherwise I would just use a coping saw for such work). I used to do all wood prep by hand, but now that I am a septuagenarian, I find the top quality power tools make a considerable difference to getting things done. So you may not need to have your own power tools.

Cheers
Peter

[Patrick Harper]

Mike, I'm using the Benchcrafted Classic Leg vise with criss-cross. No end vise for me. I'm using SYP, which is very easy to find here. If I could have found something like Alder for what you scored, I would have jumped all over it. 12/4 material would have saved me a lot of time in milling.

[Jim Matthews]

We do the same thing with clothes.

Every Spring, the unopened Rubbermaid tubs go straight to Goodwill.
No peeking allowed.

If we didn't look for it in a year - we didn't need it.

[Jim Matthews]

I used to do all wood prep by hand, but now that I am a septuagenarian, I find the top quality power tools make a considerable difference to getting things done. So you may not need to have your own power tools.Cheers, Peter

This is really sensible. Apprentices being thin on the ground, burn electrons when necessary.

I favor buying your lumber as close to your preferred dimensions as is reasonable.

While I can hog off 1/4 inch (6+ mm) by hand, that might be all can manage in a day.
Sometimes it's worthwhile to dust off a power tool, or pay somebody that owns one already.

Since the OP already owns some basic milling machines, keeping them in reserve
another couple of months won't seriously hurt his resale values.

[Greg Berlin]

Ok, you guys talked me into keeping them. I kind of wish I had a better shop setup then where I don't have to switch the dust collector between each piece and all that. Like they were set up and ready to go. They might get more use coming up as the wife need projects. Table saws scare the crap out of me, but a new one with riving knife and all that would be nice. Plus a better planer than the base base ryobi cheap one I have.

[Chris Hachet]

Mike, I'm using the Benchcrafted Classic Leg vise with criss-cross. No end vise for me. I'm using SYP, which is very easy to find here. If I could have found something like Alder for what you scored, I would have jumped all over it. 12/4 material would have saved me a lot of time in milling.

I just saw the no end vise thing. this is exactly how I am building my bench, and using the Benchcrafted classic as well with the cross-cross.

[Chris Hachet]

Ok, you guys talked me into keeping them. I kind of wish I had a better shop setup then where I don't have to switch the dust collector between each piece and all that. Like they were set up and ready to go. They might get more use coming up as the wife need projects. Table saws scare the crap out of me, but a new one with riving knife and all that would be nice. Plus a better planer than the base base ryobi cheap one I have.


Exactly-you will know what you need as time goes by. I almost sold my chopsaw a few months back, but it ahs come in very handy for some remodeling and general construction stuff I have done since then.

[Mike williams54]

No end vise? I didn't even consider that, I don't recall Christopher Schwartz saying it wasnt needed. It seems like a very useful option, clamping between dogs, and if you do a sliding shoulder type(not sure that's the technical term) then you have even more options. Then again you can still use dogs and hand plane without clamping, like nicholsens bench with no vises. Hmm

[Chris Hachet]

No end vise? I didn't even consider that, I don't recall Christopher Schwartz saying it wasnt needed. It seems like a very useful option, clamping between dogs, and if you do a sliding shoulder type(not sure that's the technical term) then you have even more options. Then again you can still use dogs and hand plane without clamping, like nicholsens bench with no vises. Hmm

Christopher Schwartz Built a giant Roubo IIRC out of French oak with only one vise, and he enjoyed it just fine. In his write up, he said that every mechanical part you add to the bench is just one more opportunity for something to break.

I am considering a second bench that will have an end vise. Scored some really good lumber, will have some left over for the second bench.

[Patrick Harper]

Mike, I'm concerned that an end vise will just bow the board I'm working on. I'll probably make a moxon vise for joinery tasks.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm happy to be without a table saw, but if I ever needed to put out some quantity beyond what I currently manage I would buy a Minimax bandsaw and a wide planer.

Putting yourself through the paces with handtools really allows you to see why and how many tools function as they do and improves your ability to use them. With handtools, especially, improving your ability and skill in utilizing the tools become important. That is not to say the opposite is true of machine tools, but I think it is doubly so with handtools because it has a very great effect on the length of time one spends working each task.

[Jim Koepke]

Mike, I'm concerned that an end vise will just bow the board I'm working on. I'll probably make a moxon vise for joinery tasks.

This can be a real concern for many. My end vise is a fairly simple set up that racks when just one side is used. Since using it with an anti-racking stack of spacers it now seems simple to prevent board bowing of even the thinest stock. The stack not only limits racking, it limits how much the vise can close on thin stock.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183743-Anti-Rack-Spacer-Stack

I have been making a lot of thin pieces of about 1/4" without bowing them while held securely by the end vise.

There are also other ways with planing stops and such to hold thin pieces.

jtk

[Greg Berlin]

Mike, in reference to the end vise. You could technically do without one, but I will say that it's very convenient to have on for rough planing boards. I know guys get buy without vises at all, but I couldn't stand to work like that. There's something very convenient in having an end vise and a front vise. I prefer the quick release metal ones like the Record or the Eclipse. But that's just personal preference I think.

[Warren Mickley]

Forty years ago I used to rig up wedges to hold the tail end of the board while planing. Then I realized that benches in Roubo and Moxon just used a single stop and so I tried it. A very liberating moment.

[Jim Koepke]

But that's just personal preference I think.

Isn't that the best reason for making a bench our own way?

Except when marching to the tune of SWMBO, what we make, how we make it, the tools we use and what we make it on should all be our personal preferences.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I use a small Veritas inset vise - on rare occasion.

It's nice to have the feature, in an unobtrusive package.
Maybe it's just the vagaries of my damp basement shop,
but a traditional sliding end vise is immobile much of the year.

[Reinis Kanders]

Jim,

Can one remove the small metal handle of Veritas inset vise? Thanks.


I use a small Veritas inset vise - on rare occasion.

It's nice to have the feature, in an unobtrusive package.
Maybe it's just the vagaries of my damp basement shop,
but a traditional sliding end vise is immobile much of the year.

[Mike williams54]

Well, I want this to be my one and only bench I ever build. I'm sure I could skip the vice and if I desperately wanted one later on, I could just chop of the corner and add one. But I think I'll save my pennies a little longer until I can get everything I want from the get go. If i don't like the vise, I won't use it. But I'm building something designed to be the ultimate in work holding and efficiency. I doubt I'll be using benchcrafted hardware, little too expensive for my level of work. I'm on the hunt for either some good old antique stuff, or veritas. If I went benchcrafted then yeah, I'd only be able to afford maybe a hand wheel for a vise. Haha