Bench Apron

[ken hatch]

I've been using a bench jack with my new bench, while less in the way than a sliding deadman it's still more hassle than I like. Kinda on the back burner has been the thought of adding an English style apron but always other things were higher on the list and it would be a pain to glue up the boards to make an apron that was deep enough to add utility. Long story shorter, I found an 8' almost 400mm wide hunk of 8/4 Beech the other day. That takes care of the glue up hassle, I have no excuse not to try it. Anyway I clamped the apron board to the bench this afternoon to see if there were any reasons to not add an apron or problems I've overlooked. BTW, that is one heavy mother to wrestle around by yourself. If I decide to go for it, I'll cut 300 or so mm off the end which should make it a little easier to handle.

The only negatives that are apparent are; it will restrict the use of dogs and limit seeing what is under the bench from the front. The dogs are not a problem because I seldom use 'em and when I do they are usually the plastic lipped ones.

Here's a photo of the apron board clamped to the bench. If I'm overlooking something, please speak up.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/benchApronA_zpsfb697392.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

For me an apron works fine. Most of the time a 6" apron would be more than enough for my current needs. I could see if I was building a lot of large doors or panels my needs would be different.

How often do you work a piece that would need the full width of your apron as shown?

jtk

[Jim Ritter]

An apron would not work for me. I clamp down on the front of the bench way too often not to have that convenient edge.
jim

[ken hatch]

For me an apron works fine. Most of the time a 6" apron would be more than enough for my current needs. I could see if I was building a lot of large doors or panels my needs would be different.

How often do you work a piece that would need the full width of your apron as shown?

jtk

Jim,

A 300mm apron would probably take care of 90% of my work but it's kinda like buying a truck. A 1/2 ton gas is good for 90% of what I need a truck for but it sure is nice to have a 3/4 ton Diesel for that other 10% when needed.

ken

[ken hatch]

An apron would not work for me. I clamp down on the front of the bench way too often not to have that convenient edge.
jim

Jim,

I can't remember the last time I clamped something to the top of my bench. That said, I could have used a clamp this morning while I was chopping mortises but a holdfast works just as well and is a lot faster. Most of the time I leave work loose, using stops and battens to keep it in place so the ability to clamp to the top is pretty much a non-issue. As always: With anything wood YMMV.

ken

[Augusto Orosco]

Don't get me wrong, I like the aprons on the Nicholson benches, but your comment on a deadman being on the way makes me wonder how would an apron be less on the way than a sliding deadman? Those at least can be removed easily if needed.

[ken hatch]

Augusto,

I probably did not choose my words precisely, when I'm using either the deadman or the bench jack they are seldom where I need them and if you are a slow learner like I am and forget to move them before hand it can be a multi-step dance routine while wrestling a heavy chunk of wood to get everything in place. When they are not in use, it's like there is a deadman/bench jack fairy that makes sure they are precisely where they will need to be moved. I know small ball irritations but why not fix 'em if I can.

That is one of the reasons why the apron hasn't been installed yet and for this post. While I can't use the aprons before installing I can live with 'em and see if there is an apparent problem where I would just be trading a set of minor irritations for another or worse a major problem. The bench works better than any bench I've owned as it is, I would hate to degrade its usefulness.

Having said all that, with my normal work routine, I expect an apron with a pattern of dog holes for holdfasts and supports would be the cat's pajamas. Of course as with all things wood: YMMV.

ken

[lowell holmes]

I have an apron on my bench. It has dog holes in it for LV hold downs to clamp long pieces that are in the vise.

I recently added rectangular dog holes at strategic positions in the apron allowing me to use bar clamps to hold down pieces that need clamping to the top.

It works! I really like the apron now.

[ken hatch]

Thanks Lowell,

After living with it for awhile and thinking through the logistics of the change I'm pretty sure when I come home from work today I will do the deed. As posted earlier, I don't clamp much to the top but I do work long pieces on edge. I have a sliding deadman on the old bench and a bench jack for this bench, both work but I expect the apron will cut down on some of the monkey motion when working a long edge.

ken

[ken hatch]

Well there is no turning back, figured I had just enough time to glue it before strapping a Sim to my butt. That way it will have more cure time before tomorrow....The apron is glued. Once cured I'll add a couple of Spax screws to each leg, drill the dog holes, and joint the top. I may have a working bench back by tomorrow afternoon. Oh, almost forgot, and saw off the end.

A quick check of square to the top shows it very close.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/gluedApron_zpsadb6faee.jpg

[Graham Haydon]

Go for it! Nothing wrong with the apron. I can still clamp things to the top if I need to. The clamp just registers on the bottom of the apron.

[Reinis Kanders]

I think that apron in Nicholson is there for structural reasons, you have a very stout bench. Apron will just get in a way in my opinion, but it is worth a try because you want it.
I am just finishing a quick build of really high (44") bench and thought about using apron to prevent racking, but decided to hold off for a while.

[ken hatch]

Reinis,

While the apron on a English bench does add structural strength if the aprons were smaller it would not have that great of an effect on the stiffness of the bench. , The wide aprons are very efficient work holding devises, I'm not sure which was the more important in the early development of the wide aprons on the English bench, the ability to use less material for the same strength or the flexibility and efficiency of work holding. Could be a chicken/egg thing.....Bottom line, while I love my English QR vise, for many operations just using stops, battens, and holdfasts are quicker and in some ways better. If you haven't watched Mike Siemsen's video on "Workholding on a viseless bench", you should....here is a link http://youtu.be/yvhn-PAfEW4

BTW, you are correct my bench is stout. Before adding the apron it weights in close to 500 lbs with all the joints either drawbored or pinned. The apron adds close to another 80 lbs. It has never moved or racked no matter what I do to or on it, while you can't get better than perfection, the apron should make it even stiffer.

ken

[ken hatch]

Graham,

I have often wondered about the "can't clamp to the top", not that I ever clamp to the top but it sure seems if I wanted to there is nothing about the apron that would stop me....I must be missing something. Guess I will find out once the glue up clamps come off :-).

ken

[Mike Holbrook]

I think the issue with a full side apron is access to the bottom of the bench, sometimes helpful when clamping. I am thinking about a 4-5" "apron" at the top edge and a 8/4"x 6-8" wide stretcher, maybe 6"-1' below the apron. The hole between the two should provide access to the bottom of the bench but leave plenty of side clamping area too. My apron and stretcher will be flush with the front legs to maximize the side clamping area. I will have a Veritas Quick-Release Sliding Tail Vise on the front right corner that will allow me to clamp to the top or side of the bench. The Benchcrafted Leg vise on the left side will be able to hold the opposite ends of longer boards on the side of the bench.

The same function might be achieved after installing the full side apron simply by cutting a piece out of the full apron, should the full apron prove limiting.

[ken hatch]

The apron is mounted. all that is left is to drill the dog holes. I've laid out three vertical rows between the legs that will be connected by two angled rows running bottom to top. I also expect there will be a fourth vertical row on the right side of the right leg.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/benchApronC_zps34512203.jpg

[ken hatch]

One last post:

It's finished. I drilled the last of the dog holes in the apron of my English/Roubo or as I like to call it my "Cross Channel Bench".

Next up is the finished project routine: A couple cups of coffee while sitting and looking at it, I might even get crazy a little later and make a couple of shavings.

ken

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/benchApronFinished_zps7cf7fe0d.jpg

[lowell holmes]

Ken,
At some time you may find a 3/4" X 1 1/2" slotted hole place at a strategic place in the apron will allow you to clamp something to the bench using a bar clamp.

I have two such holes. One is hidden behind the vise chop and the other is about 18" to right of the vise.

[Reinis Kanders]

Looks nice. I have seen Mike Siemsen's video about workholding, it is a good one, but I love my QR front vise.
What is that white thing floating above the bench?

[Jim Koepke]

One trick for clamping to the top is to use a speed clamp like this:

305049

If the stop pin is driven out the bar can be pulled out of the handle and then fed through a dog hole and reassembled. Holding the clamp handle all the time keeps things from falling apart.

You could also just use the other side of the bench or a longer pipe clamp if need be.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Lowell,

I'll keep that in mind if I need to use a clamp.

I couldn't resist, I had to clamp something and take a shaving or two.

A gratuitous photo of a clamped board with a plane in the background.:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/benchApronShaven_zps0bc96258.jpg

ken

[ken hatch]

Reinis,

I'm not sure what the "white thing" is you are seeing but I suspect it is the drill press table with the bandsaw fence laying on it that is in the background.

I'm with you, to take my English QR vise you would have to pry it out of my cold dead fingers.....humm where have I heard that?

ken

[ken hatch]

Jim,

Wouldn't it be easier to use a holdfast or am I missing something?

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

Wouldn't it be easier to use a holdfast or am I missing something?

ken

Yes, for me a holdfast works fine. I have never found a need to clamp to the front of my bench. Some folks seem to prefer clamping to the front of the bench. As they say, "different strokes... "

jtk

[ken hatch]

Thanks Jim,

I've been known to miss the secret hand shake and go along happily with out a clue. Good to know this time that wasn't the case.

ken

[Eric Brown]

Two suggestions. Line up one row of dog holes with the rods on your vice. Keep these holes offset from any holes in the top for holdfast rod clearance.

[Jim Koepke]

Two suggestions. Line up one row of dog holes with the rods on your vice. Keep these holes offset from any holes in the top for holdfast rod clearance.

+1 on that.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Good suggestion guys, I can see how that would be handy.

SWMBO is coming home from Texas* tomorrow or the next and I still do not have the pantry doors hung. I other words, I have to get my tail in gear and get those suckers in hung. The extra dog holes may have to wait a few days.

*She was there for the birth of the first grandkid, so for awhile I expect I can get away with almost anything except the pantry doors :-).

[Pat Barry]

Long story shorter, I found an 8' almost 400mm wide hunk of 8/4 Beech the other day. http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/benchApronA_zpsfb697392.jpg

Note to all: Please provide dimensions in a uniform dimensioning system. I don't care if its English (although I prefer it) or metric. Mixing things up like this makes my head hurt. Just how big is 400 mm by the way? What are you using for a measuring device? On a related note, what is 8/4 in metric?

PS - I hope you make good use of your new bench front apron! Will you space the dog holes in english or metric?

[ken hatch]

Pat,

I'm fluent it both systems but prefer to work in metric. Many fewer measuring mistakes that way. I don't like conversions because they are seldom accurate and a pain to do. In this case the board was sold to me as a nominal 8' board who knows how long it really was , the width I measured. While not as common in the States as fractional devices I have metric tapes, rules, and even some of my Woodpecker squares are marked metric. 8/4 lumber would be close to 50.8/25.4 but I doubt you would ever see it sold that way :-).

My 3/4" dog holes are on 70mm centers :-).

What little I've had time to use the new apron on the bench it works well, I think the apron will be a good addition.

BTW, one of the posters on, I believe, this forum has a sig line that goes something like if you can count to ten you can use metric.

One last thought: Your post gave me the best laugh of the year so far, thanks.

ken

Just one more last thought, even though you are working in fractional, since about 1959 the inch is based on the meter so every time you measure something you are working in metric but converting it by a factor of 25.4.....now that makes my head hurt :-).

[Jim Koepke]

Just how big is 400 mm by the way?

400 mm is about 15-3/4".

I have worked with metric.

I have worked with inches.

I prefer inches because all my measuring devices are in inches.

When the going gets tough I prefer to not use either and bring in a story stick.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Thanks Jim,

I was having too much fun with fractional/metric conversions and realized after hitting the post button I hadn't answered all of Pat's questions.

I'm with you on the story sticks. I seldom work off plans so most of my marking is either story sticks or off the pieces as the build progresses. The tapes and rules are just to get in the ballpark.

ken

[Malcolm Schweizer]

First off, this is awesome. I love the apron, and have always thought it would be cool to fit one to a Ruobo style bench. That said, for the same reasons you mentioned, I also always questioned whether it would be good or bad. I love the look, and I love the ease of the apron, and I think you are going to love using it.

Now, about that huge hunk of beech... where can I get one? :-)

[John Sanford]

I'm late to the party, but I'd like to raise one consideration that has thus far gone unmentioned.

You have effectively just moved your line of dog holes 1.5"+ (38mm+) deeper into your bench. This may or may not prove to be a dis-improvement.

[ken hatch]

Thanks Malcolm,

Finding wide boards is tough. there are some <300mm and lots of boards <250mm but few >400mm. That is one of the main reasons adding the apron had been in the back of my mind for awhile. a glue up would be possible but I wanted a solid board.

Good luck finding one, they do come along but at least in this part of the U.S. not often and when they do they are not the wood you are looking for. BTW, when I find one I buy it even if I haven't a use at that time.

I've always build a French (Roubo) style bench, mostly because, if you don't CS it up too much (that's another story and I usually step on a few toes when I go down that road), it is a quick and easy build and I've built enough of 'em to do it with out thinking. The one area of weakness with the French bench has been holding work on edge, bench jacks, sliding deadmen, and clamps address that weakness but I've thought the English work bench was a better system for edge work. I just didn't want to learn a new way to construct a work bench and I like the weight and simplicity of the French bench.

Sorry guy, I always have to build a clock, SWMBO just rolls her eyes and tries to change the subject. Anyway, I've wanted to do this for awhile but hadn't found the board to pull it off. As to the downsides, it all depends on how you work but that is the story with any bench. If you use dogs because they can't be reached from underneath the front could be a problem. I seldom use dogs. The clamp thing to the top has been beat to death, I don't use clamps to hold things to the top. The one real downside for me is not being able to easily see what is under the bench from the front side. For now I will live with that because as best I can tell from what little use I've had everything else is positive and maybe I can train myself to get things from the back side of the bench :-).

Check back in 6 months, I'll bet the answer will be the same.

ken

I forgot to add: As with all things wood, YMMV.

[ken hatch]

John,

You are correct, the front dog holes are deeper. For my use that's not a big deal. The dog holes are used for stops and holdfasts and occasionally for dogs if a single point stop will work. Because you mentioned it I just looked at my goto cross bench stop and depending on which way it's turned it is about 25mm short of the edge one way and a little more the other. If it becomes a problem then a new cross bench stop is an easy build.

Thanks for pointing it out, it's something I hadn't thought about and something anyone else thinking about adding an apron needs to be aware of. As always what works or doesn't mostly depends on your method of working.

ken

[Pat Barry]

Hey Ken, I was just kidding around with my comments regarding mixed dimensions. The units make no big difference to me. I do lots of conversions between microns and microinches at work.

The front apron looks great! Earlier today I wasn't able to view the pictures you posted because our IT department at work blocks sites such as photobucket or whatever you use. Nice work

[ken hatch]

Thanks Pat,

I had fun with your post, figured it was tongue in cheek. I had a great time with the answer.

The more I use the apron the better I like it.

I'm off to work in a couple, not my favorite shift but better than the mid-day one.

ken

BTW, your avatar looks just like my Sam the Wonder Dog...What a great friend. That's Sweet Maggie Dog in mine.

[Eric Brown]

I have one more comment to add that hasn't been mentioned. Probably because its obvious. The back jaw of the vice should be flush with the face of the apron.

On my bench (with 6" aprons) I use a hanging deadman. You see I also have adjust-a-bench legs so any supports either had to be adjustable or move with the bench. I opted for the later.

A few last thoughts. Try to get the front edge straight before gluing the apron on. Flatten and smooth the apron before putting on. Trying to plane the apron after its on is not so easy sideways (unless you lay your bench down). Have lots of clamps for gluing and use a cawl to avoid a wavy apron. A couple of dowels or biskets will help with the alignment. Predrill your dog holes if you can.

Have fun. Eric

[ken hatch]

An update after a week of use.

My only regret is that I didn't add the apron from the get go. It is an improvement over either a bench jack or a deadman. Both bench jacks and deadmen work but there is always an element of fiddle when in use or even when not in use. With the apron it is just there ready to go when needed and no hassle when not needed. So far the best of all worlds.

I'm helping (mostly building for him :-)) a co-worker build a construction grade DF French style work bench. The slab is glued up, just needs flattening and truing, and the base is ready to pin together. Once his bench is together, I expect we will add an apron to the finished bench.

ken