David Marks methodology???

[John Miliunas]

So I've had an opportunity to check out a number of Dave Mark's woodworks programs. Besides his obvious affinity to plastic resin glue and exotic woods, I also note that he does a LOT of cleaning up with hand scrapers (sometimes hand plane and scraper). I find that reassuring, particularly for pulling the most out of the grain. BUT, another point I note, and one which I have stressed over is, following almost each and every plane and/or scraping session, he goes over the above said surfaces with...with....OK, I'll say it: With sandpaper!!!???:eek:

What am I missing here? I have been duly buying planes and such, as well as giving it my best shot at learning how to tweak and use them, for the sole purpose of doing away with side-effects of sanding surfaces. But now here is a renowned and very accomplished wood artisan showing me how to defeat all that I've worked so hard to learn! Could someone please enlighten me as to what I'm missing here?:confused: :) :cool:

[Steve Wargo]

John,
the reason that he sands after planing is because his finish of choice is General Finishes Oil based urethane. It nees the surface to be "roughed up" in order to adhere properly. This is not as necessary when using shellacs, and lacquers. Hope this helps.

[John Miliunas]

Hi Steve,

OK, then I'm under yet another misconception! It was my understanding that, if you're going to be using finish, which like the General finish, is penetrating then you DO indeed want the surface more "acceptable" for that finish. BUT, I was told that's the reason you'd want to use a scraper. Basically, that method is what should be used for building type finishes. OTOH, if you'll be using something like shellac, lacquer or even (eeek) poly, then a planed surface would be preferred. Confused in WI...:confused: :) :cool:

[Steve Wargo]

Sent you a PM

[Hal Flynt]

I asked the same question. The wood looks so good after using a scraper. On the project that I am finishing now, I have noticed the following things:

When using a water based dye to even out and darken the color of Lyptus, the scrapped areas were much lighter than those sanded to 320, and the 320 lighter than the 220.

I am using the General Finish Tung Oil and after 2 coats, I lightly sanded with 320 and recoated. It's very flat and even now.

Another thing that I find is that I can't get everything scraped to the same level after assembly, but with different sanding blocks etc. I can get everything sanded to a consistent level.

[Lee DeRaud]

My take on his use of scrapers/planes/whatever is that they're for "shaping/trimming" rather than "preparation for finish". That said...

1. He seems to use finer grades of sandpaper (down to 320 prior to first coat of finish), so I'm not sure how much the "make the finish stick" theory applies. The GF stuff he uses calls for 220, but it sticks fine with 320/400 for prep and 600 between coats, and the end results can be spectacular.

2. Something I noticed in the FAQ on his website but not on the show is that he is very careful to remove all the dust from sanding. None of this wimpy "tackcloth" business either: compressed air and plenty of it.

I wouldn't stress over it too much: whyever he's doing whatever he's doing, it works, bigtime.

[Dave Right]

I took a finishing class about a year ago and the teacher said not to sand it much beyond 180 and never beyond 220 since it is a waste of time and dont want it any smoother for the finish to take hold.
Now I am as much confused as John since I have my planes tuned to give a glassy smooth finish.

[Lee DeRaud]

I took a finishing class about a year ago and the teacher said not to sand it much beyond 180 and never beyond 220 since it is a waste of time and dont want it any smoother for the finish to take hold.No intent to start an argument, but I wonder if this is a case of "common knowledge" just not keeping up with technology: something true with "traditional" finishes may not be true with the current stuff. Polymer chemistry may not advance as fast as microelectronics but it's a long way ahead of where it was even 20 years ago.

[Mark Singer]

A lot of David Marks work is curved , concave or convex rater than planer. Planes cannot be used easily on such surfaces. As Hal said after pieces are joined it is difficult to make joind pieces flush on all surfaces without sanding.

Many David Marks projects are challenging for the typical woodworker and with the time limitations the finishes are Tung oil and the pieces still look excellent.

His use of the hand scrapper is a very good tip . It is really worth the time to learn how to sharpen and use cabinet scrapers. It is very fast to sharpen once you do it a few times. It will do things that planes cannot really do and it is fast! I have a friend, Kirk Sand he makes some of the finest guitars in the world....Chet Atkins, Earl Klug are among his clients...He uses a scraper and a utility knife blade wrapped with tape for everything....We all learn what works for us. Even on the rarest Brazilian Rosewood....(Super expensive!) He must scrape and sand before the 12 coats of laquer he applies.

Marks final sanding is usually by hand and with the grain...that avoids the small scratches that blurr the wood surface/grain using a ROS as a final sanding.

[Steve Wargo]

It completely depends on what type of finish you're using. If you're using a finish that the solvent will flash off of, like shellac or lacquer, then a hand planed finish is fine. But if you're requiring the finish to soak in, and adhere like poly or oil then the surface must be roughed up. A good experiment of pigment soaking in is to try this... take a board of any wood. Sand part to 120, another to 180, another to 220, and another to 320. Then finish it with a stain, oil or water based. the coarser the sanded surface the darker the finish will be. If staining I rarely sand beyond 180. But I always hand plane or scrape shellac and laquer finishes.

[Lee DeRaud]

Many David Marks projects are challenging for the typical woodworker and with the time limitations the finishes are Tung oil and the pieces still look excellent.The show can be quite misleading in one respect: he talks about using a "mixture of tung oil, linseed oil, and polyurethane" while dipping out of a glass jar labeled "tung oil". Problem is, it really isn't that either: http://www.djmarks.com/stories/faq/What_is_the_mix_ratio_for_the_Linseed_Oil_Tung_Oil _and_Urethane_46687.asp

[Brad Olson]

From talking with a couple of guys that have taken his classes, I believe he sands after scraping to remove any lingering scraper marks and because he doesn't scrape entire surfaces. If you have ever scraped only part of a surface then you will know that the finish will penetrate differently than an area that was sanded.

I don't know why he doesn't scrape entire surfaces.

[Hal Flynt]

The show can be quite misleading in one respect: he talks about using a "mixture of tung oil, linseed oil, and polyurethane" while dipping out of a glass jar labeled "tung oil". Problem is, it really isn't that either: http://www.djmarks.com/stories/faq/What_is_the_mix_ratio_for_the_Linseed_Oil_Tung_Oil _and_Urethane_46687.asp

I bought a can each of "Seal a Cell" which has tung oil in it according to the label (the newer cans don't mention tung oil, so the formula may have been changed in the last year) and "Arm A Seal" which is their Urethane product. David was giving classes at the loacl WoodCraft. I have used 2 coats of Seal A Cell, followed by steel wool and 420 grit for one area, then a third coat of Seal A Cell, Now I will put on 3 coats of Arm A Seal for a more protection.

In the past I have used pure Tung oil, but this penetrates easier and dries faster than pure tung oil. I have also mixed my own with turpentine or naptha or MS. I like the ease of the General stuff.

Just My 2 cents.

[Lee DeRaud]

I bought a can each of "Seal a Cell" which has tung oil in it according to the label (the newer cans don't mention tung oil, so the formula may have been changed in the last year) and "Arm A Seal" which is their Urethane product.
Marks mentions on his website that the GF mixture changed "after the sixth season" and I think he's in season 7 now, so the change is relatively recent. But he's been using the GF stuff longer than he's been doing the show.

I'm not sure using two coats of Seal-A-Cell helps any vs an extra coat of Arm-R-Seal unless you're using one of the tinted versions and want a darker color than you get from one coat. (I've only used the 'clear' or 'natural' or whatever they call the untinted version.)


In the past I have used pure Tung oil, but this penetrates easier and dries faster than pure tung oil. I have also mixed my own with turpentine or naptha or MS. I like the ease of the General stuff.Good stuff, innit? :cool:

[Michael Perata]

Whatever his technique, he does it exceedingly well. I have held a couple of his turned bowls in his shop and the finish is very fine, indeed.

[Keith Christopher]

I think most notably he uses the scraper to remove the excess glue or marks left by the -< insert tool of choice here >-. I don't think I've ever seen him scrape the whole surface.



Keith

[Tim Sproul]

Hand scrape and/or hand plane an entire project and then taken a look at the surface with a bright, glancing light opposite you....examine all the surfaces...especially if you have a large table top or such. And remember to hand scrape/plane at a commercial pace...not a hobbyist pace.

[Lee DeRaud]

And remember to hand scrape/plane at a commercial pace...not a hobbyist pace.You just reminded me why I like sandpaper.:eek: