Farmhouse table breadboards

[Charlie Fox]

After making my first farmhouse table for my daughter, i am pleased that a friend has asked me to make one for him as well.

so now i am scared to death. i am using the same materials - antique 2" x 6" pine flooring and antique 3x6 pine beams for legs and base frame. the top will be 7 the tongue and grooved flooring, with Kreg pocket screws every 6", with breadboards on each end.

on my first table, i simply deepened the existing groove on the BB and cut a tongue to fit on the ends of the table using a router. with this, the T&G extends the whole length of the BB and width of the table, and is visible on the ends. i attached the BB using a Kreg jig and pocket screws (no glue), so it is attached firmly. i suppose after a full year of climate fluctuations i will see if there are any issues. i am hoping the poly finsh (4 coats) will have it pretty well sealed and movement will be minimized. October to Feb and all is well so far. This table went to my daughter, so I can always repair if anything happens, but since I am about to make the 2nd for a client so I obviously have to get it right the first time....so i have done a bit of researching BB's and found the method to use a center dowel fully glued, glue the center 6" or so of the BB to table, then dowels on each end glued to the BB but floating freely in an oblong hole in the tongue.

so my question is - anything wrong with the full length T&G with the above method that I am missing? also, i assume that it is a given that at various times of the year the BB will not be flush with the sides of the table?

for reference - here is the site i found (scroll past the glue up to get to the BB), so i plan to do the same method but with a full length T&G

http://oldhousecrazy.com/2012/02/26/reclaimed-heart-pine-farmhouse-table-diy-part-2-glue-up-and-bread-board-ends/


David

[Judson Green]

I'm not sure I'm following this correctly, but it doesn't seem that you're allowing for seasonal expansion/contraction. Did you screw it along the entire length of the joint?

Don't think polyurethane will hermetically seal wood. I recently made a breadboard end table for myself, completed it in September in my basement shop (with dehumidifier running to keep it ~50-55 RH) and once winter (heating season, ~30 RH and it was placed in to service in the kitchen) rolled around it srunk by a ¼" on both sides. Breadboard ends should only be fixed or pinned in the center, or I guess one end or the other.

My table top is about 45" wide and flat sawn cherry and finished with linseed oil and wax. It is double pinned and glued in the center (drawboard) and the holes that the flanking pins go in to are slotted, but also drawboard.

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[Kent A Bathurst]

............. i attached the BB using a Kreg jig and pocket screws (no glue), so it is attached firmly. i suppose after a full year of climate fluctuations i will see if there are any issues.



I'm not sure I'm following this correctly, but it doesn't seem that you're allowing for seasonal expansion/contraction. Did you screw it along the entire length of the joint?



so i have done a bit of researching BB's and found the method to use a center dowel fully glued, glue the center 6" or so of the BB to table, then dowels on each end glued to the BB but floating freely in an oblong hole in the tongue.

so my question is - anything wrong with the full length T&G with the above method that I am missing? also, i assume that it is a given that at various times of the year the BB will not be flush with the sides of the table?


Charlie - Judson is spot-on. The table will self destruct over time - the boards will move - not "want to move" - they will move. The breadboard with screws will not.

The method shown in the link is correct.

And, you are correct - the bb will not be flush with the table top. Maybe almost never, as the top goes from too narrow through dead-nuts to too wide. I made a 44" wide QSWO dining table with breadboard ends - set flush in early autunm. It moved in and out a bit during the 3 seasons it lived in Atlanta. Then it moved to St Louis - and that sucker shrunk by 3/8+" the first winter there. :eek: All you gotta do is make the outer elongated holes long enough - I don't know of any downside by making them more than long enough - like 1" - 1-1/2"

If I might make a suggestion: you may as well pull the existing table apart, and do it properly - you will have to do it sooner or later - give you a practice run, as it were, before the 2d table.

Also - you do not mention how you attached the top to the base/frame rails. Did not see anything about that in the link. You must allow for the table top to move across the base - the base will not expand / contract.

Last - as a guideline, look at this attachment. I used to think it overstated the movement a bit, but after Thanksgiving in St Louis, I am not so sure.

http://woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm

[Chris Friesen]

so my question is - anything wrong with the full length T&G with the above method that I am missing? also, i assume that it is a given that at various times of the year the BB will not be flush with the sides of the table?

for reference - here is the site i found (scroll past the glue up to get to the BB), so i plan to do the same method but with a full length T&G

http://oldhousecrazy.com/2012/02/26/reclaimed-heart-pine-farmhouse-table-diy-part-2-glue-up-and-bread-board-ends/


David

The problem with just doing a single long tongue is that it isn't as strong. When you peg the outsides, you want enough meat in the tenons past the pegs that there is no risk of the peg blowing out the short grain between the peg and the end of the tenon. That means a longer tenon (a couple inches maybe for a table top). However you don't want to extend that into a long tongue because then you're removing a bunch of material from the breadboard end.

So the classical way to do it is to have three (or five) long tenons where the pegs go, with stub tenons in between. Usually this is done by machining a long tongue and then cutting out most of the material between the tenons. The mortises in the breadboard are cut tightly for the center tenon and have room for the outer tenons to move.

See http://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/the-barnsley-hay-rake-table for an example.

[Kent A Bathurst]

The problem with just doing a single long tongue is that it isn't as strong. When you peg the outsides, you want enough meat in the tenons past the pegs that there is no risk of the peg blowing out the short grain between the peg and the end of the tenon. That means a longer tenon (a couple inches maybe for a table top). However you don't want to extend that into a long tongue because then you're removing a bunch of material from the breadboard end.

So the classical way to do it is to have three (or five) long tenons where the pegs go, with stub tenons in between. Usually this is done by machining a long tongue and then cutting out most of the material between the tenons. The mortises in the breadboard are cut tightly for the center tenon and have room for the outer tenons to move.

See http://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/the-barnsley-hay-rake-table for an example.


Yeah - I didn't want to get that complicated in the reply, but you are correct. For example - doing layout for the tenons.........

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[Bob Glenn]

I built a farm table with glued up poplar and bread board ends. It's 32 inches wide. Seasonal changes cause it move slightly over 3/32's in width. I glued and pinned the center tenon then pinned each end with oval holes in the tenons. No problems so far.

[Mike Monroe]

One of my first projects was a small Shaker end table. I glued and pegged the breadboard ends on the small table top, glued and pegged it real good - all along the edge, not allowing for any wood movement. Finished with big box poly. Gave the table to my MIL. After a year or so the top had a nice 3/32 split right in the middle a little over a foot long.

I learned. Made a large coffee table using a haunched breadboard ends, allowing for wood movement. You can see and feel the exposed tenon of the top in the breadboard ends grow and shrink with the seasons.

My guess is the table top with the securely fastened breadboard ends will develop a major split in the top over time. I suggest you proactively redo the breadboard ends on the table before the wood splits and the top is ruined.

[Charlie Fox]

good answers all - Kent - the table is not fastened to the base, it sits on it so that the top of the 4x4 legs fit into a boxed in square the same size, very sturdy yet easy to move.

also wondering - since the table is made of 8 planks, but no glue was used, how it would move - perhaps there is some absorption of movement in there. since they are not glued each plank will try to move separately. for extra strength/support i have perpendicular braces fastened with lag screws.

so i am thinking maybe nothing will crack, or each plank will crack separately - worst case scenario .... gulp

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[Ethan Melad]

As you have it now, I think you'll be in trouble. How much room for expansion do you have in the grooves of the top pieces? You may be able to get away with removing the pocket screws (and maybe adding a second screw, close to the first, into each board through the batten underneath?), which will allow for each board to move individually - assuming the tongue has enough space to move in the groove. Then just make your breadboard ends correctly, fastened in the center and allow for movement at each end.

However, pine is not a big mover, and we don't know where you live or what the temperature and humidity changes will be like.

[Charlie Fox]

Thanks ethan - the table was built in Houston, in humid fall, and resides near Austin, somewhat dryer than Houston but not as dry as say Kansas.

amazing how something so seemingly simple can be so complicated.

so would it be better to have jointed edges and glue up the table top? i though the T&G was a great asset to using the old flooring. i clamped the pieces tight when putting in the screws, had to because there was a slight bend in some of the planks that had to be corrected.

i can see a table top all glued would move as one unit, but as i have built this, i assume each plank will expand on its own? Bob Glen above had 3/32 movement in a 32" table. assuming all is equal for simplicity sak -lets say mine will have 4/32 or 1/8 = 0.125" since it is wider, that means each of the 8 planks will expand 0.0156", but seeing as they are only held fast at the center of each, then it "appears" the BB's will be ok as the T&G extends end to end, and what i may see is some buckle as the planks expand against each other.

it was made in a higher humidity time of year when theoretically the wood should be at its biggest, so that could work in my favor as well

what a royal PITA ;-)

[Shawn Pixley]

Thanks ethan - the table was built in Houston, in humid fall, and resides near Austin, somewhat dryer than Houston but not as dry as say Kansas.

it was made in a higher humidity time of year when theoretically the wood should be at its biggest, so that could work in my favor as well

what a royal PITA ;-)

The truth is the niether you nor we know that there will or will not be a problem. We don't know what the MC of the wood was, the temperature and humidity of the air, etc... There may not be a problem if you were at "maximum swell" when you built it, but I kinda doubt it. There is more water in the air at 95 degrees with 90% RH than at 70 degrees with 90% RH. My bet is that higher temperatures and high humidity would cause the flooring to swell more, causing problems.

As others have said both the batten construction and the breadboard ends decisions could have been more thoughtful. For the next build, I suggest revising the approach. If you want to keep the T&G look, glue the boards together ensuring flatness and if necessary use battens on the bottom with appropriate methods to allow for wood expansion. Personally, I wouldn't do the battens. For the breadboard ends, use proper tenons and shoulder haunches rather than thinking a simple T&G with a couple of dowels would be strong enough. I do a lot of breadboard ends and they hold up really well. They ensure that your top doesn't crown or cup.

[Pat Barry]

how it would move - perhaps there is some absorption of movement in there. since they are not glued each plank will try to move separately. for extra strength/support i have perpendicular braces fastened with lag screws.

so i am thinking maybe nothing will crack, or each plank will crack separately - worst case scenario .... gulp

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Besides cracking of the table top boards the other thing you will contend with is the table top warping since the crossbars will try to restrain the actual table top movement. I will tell you that you should remove the cross-braces, and then elongate all the holes, more so at the ends so the table can expand / contract and the lag screws are able to move in the elongated holes. Use the lag screws (with flat washers) to hold the top down, but not too snugly such that the boards can't move. I don't know how much movement you need to allow for, perhaps +/- 3/8 inch on the end boards? I don't have any problem with the pocket screws holding the boards to each other - I think that will be A OK

[Kent A Bathurst]

I made a pair of repro Stickley/Ellis bookcases, but have fixed shelves, not moveable. The backs are free-floating shiplapped [analgous to T&G] QSWO boards.

I put screws through the centerline of each board - at top and bottom, plus one per shelf. Each shiplapped board expands/contracts freely on either side of it's centerline - the gaps between boards get a tiny bit smaller or larger over the seasons.

Plus - this design eliminates any issues on the overall dimension - there are no problems with the back expanding inside a fixed case -it is only the tiny expansion by the outer half of the outer boards, which stay behind their rabbets.

In the photo above, something has to give: the boards are screwed together, making one solid slab, and they are screwed to the battens. Referencing my bookcases - you could pull the screws that hold the boards together, and let the pieces expand and contract individually [assuming you left a gap between them].

[Judson Green]

As you have it, it will crack. Whether glued or not, unless maybe your pocket screws don't hold. If you removed those you might just maybe sidestep this construction error.

As I mentioned in my previous post the table top I made as move ~¼" on both sides (~½" total) over on a now 41¾" wide glue up. And this was kiln dried for furniture lumber, not kiln dried for construction lumber.

[keith micinski]

You can use screws if you drill up from the bottom through the tenon. Then oversize the holes in the tenon itself allowing the field of the table to still expand and contract.

[Charlie Fox]

ok, starting to get a clearer picture on how to proceed......

the battens were necessary as i couldnt even flip the table top over on the workbench without them - again,. i was overthinking and designing this table to double as a tornado and bomb shelter.

so for the next one, i have a new source for reclaimed flooring that appears to be much straighter, so i think i can avoid the reason i felt i needed all the pocket screws in the first one where i added one plank at a time and screwed them up (no pun intended) while pressed together with bar clamps nto take the warps out. perhaps i can clamp them all together at once (but not too tightly) , then add battens with elongated holes, then the breadboards with the 3-pin method as shown in the link in the first post. this way the boards should be fairly snug with room to move, i just have to be very strict on using only the straightest boards....


however, i am going to watch this table through the year and see, there is a chance nothing will happen, and if it does, i can see it beeing so catastrophic as to not be easily fixed by doing what is recommended above - i.e. removing battens, pocket screws if necessary, elongating holes, and then i can replace any badly split board or perhaps just repair with glue. i have a few things going for me - such as made in higher humidity time of year, pine isnt as big of a mover as other woods, screws in center of planks, etc. thanks again to ALL for your input!