Torn between old and new

[William Mark Dulken]

I have an opportunity to outfit a brand new shop for myself. The building is there, it's just waiting for the tools to be purchased. I have stayed in the woodworking business over the years, but I have been without a shop for the last five. When I let my last place go the tools went to my friends and neighbors. I knew I'd be buying all new again but I didn't see this dilemma coming. That being, either I shop the want ads and get the tried and true old American made stuff or I get the highest quality I can and go with imports. My budget won't allow anything from European countries so it's the lesser of two evils ...Taiwan or mainland China.

There are a few USA made goodies on CraigsList but the shiny new stuff has my attention right now. Whats the general consensus on Powermatic and Jet these days? They are both Taiwan right? I will avoid China if at all possible.

Thanks, Mark

[Matt Day]

IMO, most Powermatic stuff, new, is way overpriced. And some of the stuff is standard Asian import that other companies such as Grizzly offer at a much better price.
Grizzly would be my first choice for new at good prices and good quality. If I had the money laying around I'd buy something like Hammer/Felder/Minimax, but would skip the middle of the road stuff.
That all being said, I enjoy hunting for machinery and tools at good deals on Craigslist, auction, estate sales, etc, then fixing them up.

Oh, and you've got a good problem remember, hmmm, which all new (or new to me) machinery to buy??? Sounds fun to me!

[William Mark Dulken]

Oh, and you've got a good problem remember, hmmm, which all new (or new to me) machinery to buy??? Sounds fun to me!

Yep I'm having fun for sure. How do you rate Jet up against Grizzly, better/worse/same?

[Brian W Smith]

Deep subject on several fronts........some of which,only you are going to be able solve.

The one area that always comes into my pea brain first is;How does the user(me)interface with this pce of equipment?For instance take a shaper with a nice powerfeed.I stick a pce in one end and out squirts a moulded edge(or whatever).Other than setup,there isn't a lot of user involvement*.Now take a TS,there is usually less setup but much more user interface.

The above is just a quickie.......so don't anyone get their undies in a wad.It boils down to ergos.The more I interface with a pce of equipment,the more important the "feel" is.Consequently,and this is so hard to put into words,it just "IS" that older arn has more feel.

*Note,yes I realize not all shaper work is done with feeders,there is a metric ton of pattern work done on them.And yes,I know what a straightline ripsaw is.

[James Nugnes]

Of the suppliers that seem to be on the value front lines, Grizzly does appear to do a darned good job of delivering on that proposition. So I guess if you have to buy a lotta' stuff, getting some of it from Grizzly would not be a bad choice. I would offer a caution about packaging. If you have to have the stuff shipped to you, from what I can glean, getting the Grizzly stuff to your door without damage can be more of a challenge than it is for some of the other guys. Go to different places to get what review information you can and I think you will find that in their case, if you can get it to your front door without the carrier damaging it, you have a pretty decent tool for the money. There just seems to be more carrier damage issues with them and I have to think packaging has something to do with it.

[Matt Day]

Yep I'm having fun for sure. How do you rate Jet up against Grizzly, better/worse/same?

Same AFAIC, for most everything. Only couple things I can think of of the top of my head that I'd go with Jet would be the hobby sized drum sanders (Performax designs) and parallel clamps.

Regarding shipping, There have been some problems voiced about it. What % have problems, I don't know, but the president of Grizzly (Shiraz) takes care of his customers and is an active member here.

And if I were you and buying lots of equipment, I might think of renting a trailer and making a trip from NC to PA to pick it up myself!

[Justin Ludwig]

Shop both markets. If you can't find a decent machine on the used market, buy it new. Search this forum about Taiwan vs China vs Euro vs Old Arn and then Jet vs PM vs Griz and you'll find 6 of 1 and 1/2 a dozen of the other for each side.

Decide what you want to focus on building and go from there.

[Jim Andrew]

I have 7 pieces of Grizzly equipment, and none have been damaged in shipping. Just a few weeks ago ordered a new G0540 horizontal drill, (slot mortiser) and it was in a 1/2" plywood box, and no damage at all. The shipping receipt is there for you to report any damage shown on the box, write it down if you suspect damage, but my delivery drivers have had the tall machines tied to the side of the truck, and have avoided damaging my machines. And the delivery charge is half of other companys.

[William Mark Dulken]

Has Grizzly improved over the years? I had their 12" planer and a friend had the 10" table saw, back 10yrs ago we joked about how crappy the quality was. The mounting holes for his tablesaws cast extensions didn't even line up and my planer had such poor adjustment you couldn't use it for anything critical. Maybe, like Hyundai's, they are more respectable now.

[Brian W Smith]

Their "fencing" needs a good looking at.IMO,they have really dropped the fence ball.......and I generally like their stuff.And a huge +1 on the shipping issues noted above.It is an absolute nightmare.

[Randy Red Bemont]

Grizzly has come a LONG way in their quality. I, like you, have seen the poor quality of years ago. Within the last year I have purchased new from Grizzly their table saw (G1023RLX) and 8" jointer (G0490X). Love them both. The quality, fit and finish is all there. As for shipping, no damage or missing parts. Grizzly is where I would go.

Red

[John TenEyck]

I think the comment to shop and buy used if you can, and buy new for what you can't find used is the route I would go on most stationary tools. I would especially look for an old iron jointer, planer, and table saw as my first choice. New paint looks nice, but I'd rather buy old machines that still run well at low cost and have money for new hand tools, wood, DC and exhaust, etc. Of course, I'm just a hobbiest and don't need to eat from what I make.

John

[John Coloccia]

If you're starting from scratch, I would take a very serious, long look at a used European combo machine (sliding table saw/jointer planer/shaper). I've seen reasonable machines come up for sale in the $5000 range. If I were starting from scratch and had the space, that's what would be in my shop. I know you say it's out of your price range, but maybe not when you consider what separates will cost...even cheap separates.

With all the advances over the years, and especially safety advances (riving knives, usable blade guards, Euro style jointer guards, etc), I always have a hard time recommending 50 year old technology at any price unless you're into restoring old machines as a separate hobby.

[Peter Hartman]

I have 3 grizzly tools. I have a 691 table saw. I love it. It is one of my favorite tools. It was extremely accurate out of the box. My grizzly dust collector sucks. I flip the switch and it sucks, every time. I also have an old table top drill press, probably from the early 90's. It just runs and runs. I have not been kind to it. I also have a 1950's Powermatic planer and a 1930's Wallace jointer. I find these old machines a joy to use and to tune. They are solid and will probably last 100's of years with a little bit of maintenance in a hobby shop. I do know that the casting on my planer are much harder than my table saw. I made a jig with some little bolts protruding out the bottom and I slid that around on my planer bed for hours and hours, there is no noticeable scratch from it. I put it on my tabel saw and it scratched every where that I moved it. To me having the riving knife on the saw is worth having some softer table tops. My last major tool purchase will be a resaw bandsaw and I am not sure what direction I will go. I do really love the look of the old guys...

http://owwm.org/download/file.php?id=40778&t=1

[Jerry Olexa]

I advise go "old" which is usually better....For example,,DELTA, Stanley-Bailey, Bosch, et al....In some cases you have to buy new...Buying used is more time consuming...Just my opinion..

[Art Mann]

I noticed you listed your location as Pisgah Forest, NC. If that is the case, then you are going to be doing a lot of driving and looking to buy a shop full of equipment. For example, I have looked for an old cabinet saw from Delta or Powermatic for several years on Craigslist. One shows up on the local Craigslist about once a year and they are higher priced than an equivalent new Grizzly machine. To get any kind of selection at all, I have to open up the search radius to 100+ miles. I am not willing to drive that far just to look at a machine that may or may not be worthwhile.

[Cary Falk]

I have Jet, Delta, Powermatic(old),Steel City, and Grizzly. I think Jet and PM have lost touch with reality on prices. Most of my stuff is Grizzly and is nicer and have had less issues than Jet. You can't go with all one brand. You have to take it on a tool by tool basis. I havn't followed Jet that closely but Grizzly is mixed between China and Taiwan. Most of my stuff is Taiwan but my planer is Chinese. Since most of the imports are the same, i would guess Jet is the same for the same tool.

[Jonathan Freinkel]

In retrospect - I would buy a SawStop new (unless I could find one used..but doubtful.) and everything else I'm looking for pre 80's iron.

i have an old powermatic tablesaw. It's solid but I probably should have bought the SS.

[Gene Takae]

Mark, I totally understand your situation. I try to buy American when possible but these days it's pretty near impossible. You can buy older American made tools but often parts become a problem. I personally own several Jet tools and have been very happy with the quality. Although they are manufactured in Taiwan, Jet at one time had 14 quality control engineers overseeing production, although I'm not sure that still holds true. While all the tools from different companies might possibly be made in the same factory I feel that the specs that each sets for their tools makes the difference.

You might consider buying a Festool track saw instead of a table saw to start. It will do everything the TS can do with the exception of one pass dadoes, and can do tasks that would be difficult to do with a TS. And should you acquire a TS down the line the Festool is still excellent for breaking down full sheets of plywood.
Just my 2 cents.....

[Phil Barrett]

Grizzly has come a LONG way in their quality. I, like you, have seen the poor quality of years ago. Within the last year I have purchased new from Grizzly their table saw (G1023RLX) and 8" jointer (G0490X). Love them both. The quality, fit and finish is all there. As for shipping, no damage or missing parts. Grizzly is where I would go.

Red

I have a G1023RLX too and am very happy with the overall quality. I dislike the magnifying bubble on the fence (as other have noted).

I also have a number of other Griz products of varying ages and have no complaints.

[Phil Barrett]

Mark, I totally understand your situation. I try to buy American when possible but these days it's pretty near impossible. You can buy older American made tools but often parts become a problem. I personally own several Jet tools and have been very happy with the quality. Although they are manufactured in Taiwan, Jet at one time had 14 quality control engineers overseeing production, although I'm not sure that still holds true. While all the tools from different companies might possibly be made in the same factory I feel that the specs that each sets for their tools makes the difference.

You might consider buying a Festool track saw instead of a table saw to start. It will do everything the TS can do with the exception of one pass dadoes, and can do tasks that would be difficult to do with a TS. And should you acquire a TS down the line the Festool is still excellent for breaking down full sheets of plywood.
Just my 2 cents.....

I agree on looking at a track saw though DeWalt and Makita make very good ones that produce just as good cuts as the festool and a lower cost.

[Jim Andrew]

Didn't notice at first that you are in North Carolina. A few weeks ago, I saw a Hammer tablesaw, felder bandsaw and a A3-31 planer surfacer advertised there, think maybe it was on woodweb. My problem is, if I am going to travel half way across the country, carrying cash to pay for the equipment, it would cost so much for the trip, it would be cheaper to just order new. I drove across a couple states to get my bandmill, and my travel costs added up quick.

[Jim Matthews]

Have a browse in our Classified section.
One of our very own is selling some things
that are right down your alley.

Getting them home might be a challenge...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?226430-Selling-a-Few-Tools-Need-a-Few-Thoughts-on-Prices