Traditional Tail Vise, Flush Legs, Sliding Deadman - Pick any 2?

[Jeff Ranck]

Question for those of you who have a traditional tail vise and legs flush with the front of your bench - were you able to work in a sliding deadman? In putting together my bench, I'm using the Roubo basic design. However, I'm putting in a traditional tail vise with square dogs rather than the wagon vise that most seem to be using now. However, with that combination, I'm not sure I can see how to put a sliding deadman in.

Here's the issue. The dogs for a traditional tail vise are typically about an inch or so from the front edge of the bench. Each dog hole has a dog that typically extends a couple of inches or so below the bench. With that combination, there isn't enough room for a sliding deadman between the edge of the bench and the dogs. The only thing I can see to do is:

1. use a bench slave or something similar and forget about the sliding deadman.
2. forget about having dogs in each of the holes and have the sliding deadman "slide slot" in the bottom of the bench sit behind the row of dog holes
3. move the dog holes back to the place they typically are with the wagon vise (not ideal for the mechanics of a traditional tail vise)

I just wondered if anyone else has a similar setup and how they solved the issue.

Jeff.

[John Vernier]

Here's a photo of a bench at the Yale University Furniture Study. Peter Follansbee took this picture and had it on his blog a while back. This bench manages all three of your conditions. I think the dog holes are more than an inch from the edge, but not much more.

https://pfollansbee.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/bench.jpg

[Steve Voigt]

I modeled my deadman after one built by Jameel Abrams. It was on his oudlutherie blog, but the site no longer seems to be working properly.
Anyway, I snapped a crappy cell-phone pic of mine:

304481

As you can see, the deadman is quite thick, two layers laminated together, and the part that slides in the groove is bolted onto the back of the deadman. The groove is 2.5" from the edge of the bench. So, something like this would solve your problem (I think).

I'm failing to understand though, why each hole needs its own dog, and why the dogs have to extend so far below the bench top.

[ian maybury]

For sure the straight shank of the dog needs when clamping the maximum thickness that it's capable of to project through the hole in the bench top if it's to grip properly. Not necessarily by very much, but enough to clear any radiused end to the shank. That may mean that the shank pokes through the bottom of the bench top by quite a bit when holding thin material.

Not 100% sure i have it right, and i don't know about L vises - but laminating the deadman as Steve so that it's possible to step back the slot it slides in to behind the dog holes seems like a good move. The body of the deadman may still prevent use of a dog if it happens to need to be in a position where it happens to block the ability of the dog to simultaneously poke through the required hole in the bench top. This may not be a very likely scenario?

If it is then perhaps it would be feasible to build in a slot into the top of the deadman during lamination in the line of the dogholes deep enough to clear the dog shanks? The slot could actually be very deep if needed for dogs with a long shank.

Another tactic to reduce length of the required dog shank for a given clamping capacity might be to counterbore the bottoms of the dog holes in the bench top to permit the use of a shorter dog - but it'd seem a pity to accept too artificial a limitation on dog length. (you might decide to go to a longer heavier dog at some point in the future?) Counterboring may be necessary anyway to get good grip in the case of a very thick bench top - but the other option to get good grip for a dog in a thick top is probably to increase the clearance between the dog and hole in the bench top a little (to deliver the same tilt angle) - but definitely test the arrangement in some scrap pieces first….

[Reinis Kanders]

That is a sweet bench! Probably so heavy it would fall through my porch's floor.


Here's a photo of a bench at the Yale University Furniture Study. Peter Follansbee took this picture and had it on his blog a while back. This bench manages all three of your conditions. I think the dog holes are more than an inch from the edge, but not much more.

https://pfollansbee.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/bench.jpg

[Curt Putnam]

Question: Would you need the deadman to function at the same time as you are using dogs in the same space? I would think that using the deadman implies edge work rather than tail vise work.

[Tom Vanzant]

On the Yale workbench, it appears the front edge of the top and legs are flush but the deadman is not. The deadman appears to be guided by rails, top and bottom, in front of the dog holes in the bench top. On the tail vise, only one dog hole aligns with the row of dog holes; they are square holes. The four rectangular holes near the front edge of the vise don't line up with anything. Hmmm?
Yes, the deadman is intended to support the end of boards during edge-related work. The deadman on the Yale bench has small holes and a single headed pin (peg), not a clamp... strictly to support the board.

[John Vernier]

On the Yale workbench...The four rectangular holes near the front edge of the vise don't line up with anything. Hmmm?

I think that the holes not lining up is of very little concern over the length of that bench. You would be using the front dog hole on the tail vise to hold any short pieces, and the holes further back come into play when you need to hold something approaching the full length of the bench. If the clamping pressure is out-of-line by a degree or two it will not be noticed.

I'm guessing those holes are out of line in order to give clearance to the internal thread and nut of the tail vise. I am amazed by the size of that vise. I have seen other pictures of tail vises that large, but I have never had a chance to play with one. It looks like it could open 18" or so, to take an entire drawer assembly or something like that.

[Jim Matthews]

I've been through many of the same iterations you're considering.

I was forever moving the sliding deadman out of the way.
With legs flush to the front of the bench, a couple holdfasts
are enough to do most everything. I don't miss the sliding deadman.

I have a Moxxon vise with the rear chop integrated in the front of the bench.
Clamping long boards is pretty easy, with this set up.

As with your concerns, I found the sliding deadman just complicated all other aspects.

Look at the Nicholson designs for alternatives on holding boards to the front.

I took many aspects of Bob Rozaieski's excellent suggestions and accomodated
them into my current bench. I don't like things that stick out into the area
immediately in 'front' of my bench.

I'm clumsy and often careless - bumping into things at speed that are waist high isn't fun.

FWIW - I don't often miss a twin screw tail vise - the Moxxon is more than 19" between the screws.

https://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress.com/category/workbench/

[Winton Applegate]

Jeff,
There ARE only two REAL vises :):

1. Shoulder Face vise Scandinavian ala Frank Klausz
2. Tail vise Scandinavian ala Frank Klausz
Bench slave used with both.
See first photo (of Frank Klausz). How ? ? ? ? :confused: . . . how does one support a nice sized plank like he is working, with one of them little stuck on the front middle of the bench dead man ? Well I guess a guy COULD do it if he HAD TO but . . . :)

forget about the sliding deadman
Yes . . . I have.

Dogs :
Real benches :) . . . are thick enough in the dog area that they swallow up the dog and there is nothing hanging down.
I like more than an inch between the front of the bench and the front face of the dog.

[Jeff Ranck]

Here's a photo of a bench at the Yale University Furniture Study. Peter Follansbee took this picture and had it on his blog a while back. This bench manages all three of your conditions. I think the dog holes are more than an inch from the edge, but not much more.

https://pfollansbee.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/bench.jpg

John:

That is an interesting picture. It looks like there are two spacings for the dog holes. The first and last dog hole in the tail vise seem to be spaced farther away and the middle three seem to be closer. The holes in the table seem to be spaced at the farther away spacing, except maybe all the way down at the end of the table by the leg vise. I can't quite tell. Hmm.... that could be interesting.

Jeff.

[Jeff Ranck]

Jeff,
Real benches :) . . . are thick enough in the dog area that they swallow up the dog and there is nothing hanging down.
I like more than an inch between the front of the bench and the front face of the dog.

The top will probably be in the 3 5/8 - 3 3/4 range by the time everything is flattened. So I could probably make them so they don't hang down. That would probably be ok. However, Jim's comment about having to always move the deadman to get to the dogs bears some thinking about.

I'm inclined to put the dogs in the 1" range away from the bench, but maybe I should reconsider. How far are your's away?

Jeff.

[Jeff Ranck]

I've been through many of the same iterations you're considering.

Look at the Nicholson designs for alternatives on holding boards to the front.

I took many aspects of Bob Rozaieski's excellent suggestions and accomodated
them into my current bench. I don't like things that stick out into the area
immediately in 'front' of my bench.

https://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress.com/category/workbench/

Jim: I loved Bob's series on his Nicholson bench and why he went to it. I seriously considered that style, but will go with the french style for now. After seeing the comments here, I'm seriously considering foregoing the deadman.

My bench is long (8') so there will be quite a space between the legs. Maybe a bench slave, or something I can put up if I need it and get it out of the way when I don't.

Jeff.

[Winton Applegate]

Question: Would you need the deadman to function at the same time as you are using dogs in the same space? I would think that using the deadman implies edge work rather than tail vise work.
I think the problem is, though I still don't understand it as a problem, is he wants a dog in every hole ( or several holes) and does not want to push all those dogs up out of the way.

I say put a dog in every hole, YES, but make them the thickness of the bench minus the track depth (if you NEED a deadman ((maybe that is why it is called a dead man cause it doesn't do much)).
:cool:
:)
Chill
just keeping the thread going
I can appreciate it . . . just feeling insecure because I don't have one.

THEN
IF
you were to ever need a dog longer than that ? ? ? . . . then make one or two and use them and put them in the tool box after.
I cut eight quarter plus going all out cross grain scrubbing bubbinga on my bench with no back stop just the two dogs gripping the ends of a rough cut off square cut ends and no problem with my wooden purple heard dogs.

The only other thing I would need lots of dog protrusion for is perhaps pulling a joint apart now and then.
Seems good so far.

It's not always the length but what you can do with it.
(or so I'm told)

[ian maybury]

:o Oops! Just realised that i was suffering from brain fade and using the word 'dog' when not thinking very clearly of holdfasts in the post above.

Dogs are not as you guys say necessarily going to project through the bench top, but it's necessary for holdfasts to do so - if that is the likelihood is that the front row holes will be circular, and used from time to time with holdfasts. If the dogs will be square then the point is meaningless...

[Winton Applegate]

I was forever moving the sliding deadman out of the way.

You can just lift the dead man out of it's track and set it aside until you need it. No reason to slide it around all day.

My holes start ~ 2” from the front of the bench.
Two dogs in first photo. Short one is the one I wound up using and is the same thickness as the bench. The other one is a design I saw and copied; it sticks out the bottom of the bench.

I have even been known to get totally crazy and grip projects twice as thick as the eight quarter with out problem. See second photo.
What exactly does one need extra long dogs for on a regular basis ?
Oh yah pattern making
So you are obviously going to have to make another bench for that and put the Emmert vise on it.
Fun ! Another project !


That is an interesting picture. It looks like there are two spacings for the dog holes. The first and last dog hole in the tail vise seem to be spaced farther away and the middle three seem to be closer. The holes in the table seem to be spaced at the farther away spacing, except maybe all the way down at the end of the table by the leg vise. I can't quite tell. Hmm.... that could be interesting.
On the Yale or mine?
Mine ARE Asymmetrical spaced along the length of the bench (but not front to back) on the moving tail vise.

On the misaligned holes on the Yale bench
say
now there is some thing we can bang the table about. I have never come across that and I have really stared hard at a lot of benches.
Is that an advantage or is it
perhaps
dare I say
Cockamayme

How does one spell Kokhamamee anyway ?
First time I have ever wanted to use the word.

PS: Bike photos . . . I ran across these while looking through my photos for dog photos and thought some body might appreciate it even though it isn’t a dog. He tells me it was a temporary malady and his bike is back to normal after new years. Must have been that synthetic chain lube. It has been know to cause mutagenic complications.

[Winton Applegate]

I'm guessing those holes are out of line in order to give clearance to the internal thread and nut of the tail vise.

Yemmmani Christmas ! Move the screw not the dog holes.
I was able to choose where to put my vise screw when I made my bench and I'm a first time "user". Not a Big O'l Dog making a big O'l Dog's bench which that certainly qualifies as.
I am thinking . . .
half fast hybrid. The guy got the vise off one junked bench and adapted it to fit this main bench.
Quakamaymii

[Joe A Faulkner]

FWIW - I placed the dog holes 1 3/4" from the front face of the bench top, so even with a dog in every hole, they will not interfere with the sliding deadman, if or when I every get around to installing it. I've not had any problems with the dogs not being any closer to the front edge of the bench.

[Jim Matthews]

My bench is long (8') so there will be quite a space between the legs. Maybe a bench slave, or something I can put up if I need it and get it out of the way when I don't. Jeff.

That's really big. Will it be up against a wall?
I'm a proponent of using both long sides of a bench,
for different tasks.

I like the Nicholson design shown on The Logan Cabinet Shoppe podcasts
because it doesn't try to hold everything down. I've incorporated that aspect.

When I'm prepping stock, I don't have to unclamp anything to shift the board.

I like lumber with 'interesting' figure - so planing in one direction isn't in the cards.
Being able to reorient the board saves me considerable time.

If you're like me, it's pretty rare to work a board that's longer than 39".
If you're jointing the edge of a long board, I recommend you look to Terry Gordon's
shooting jig that puts the board flat on the bench - you've got eight feet to work with.

I've recently made a similar shooting board and have excellent results.

Why bother with setting something on it's side, with all that real estate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw_scdtQoFE

[Jeff Ranck]

That's really big. Will it be up against a wall?
I'm a proponent of using both long sides of a bench,
for different tasks.


My shop layout is kind of hard to explain. It started out as a "lower single car garage" (sort of a "walkout basement" type arrangement with a garage door) when we bought the house. We remodeled and I removed the garage door and built swing out doors. I also carved some additional space into the basement. So my shop has a nice long north facing window. My bench will sit there. Due to the remainder of the layout, it isn't feasible to put it out in the room. Since it is narrow (22-24" wide), that doesn't make a lot of sense anyway. I made it 8' simply because I had the space and the window runs about 6-7'.

So long story short, yes it is against a wall underneath a window. I really like working in that corner of the shop on my hand tools (I have an "ultimate tool stand" that I but some time ago. I use it as a temporary "bench" there until this gets built).



If you're like me, it's pretty rare to work a board that's longer than 39".
If you're jointing the edge of a long board, I recommend you look to Terry Gordon's
shooting jig that puts the board flat on the bench - you've got eight feet to work with.



I hadn't seen that before. Thanks for the link!

Jeff.