the saw nib.

[Stewie Simpson]

British Saws & Saw Makers from c1660; Simon Barley; published: Oct. 2014; Chapter 1; Making a saw;

Recently there was a thread inquiring on the purpose of the saw nib. On page 11 of this book it discusses this very subject in some detail.

Cutting the nib was not mechanised in the Garlick saw works in 1995, shortly before it was bought up by another Sheffield firm. No nibs were put on any hand saws there, but the owner told me, when I asked about it, that he was perfectly prepared to do so " if anyone was daft enough to ask me". What he did not point out was that this simple punch and die (covered in dust) would not have been used by him or any other saw maker on a skewback saw, the pattern patented by the great saw maker Henry Disston in 1874 and copied by British makers as soon as they could. Disston, and the Sheffield firm of Spear & Jackson, were both quite clear, and said so in their handbooks on saws, the nib was a decorative element, and presumably the curve of the skewback saw has always been considered decorative enough. The ultimate in decorative nibs must surely be the one that Robert Sorby put in some of their handsaws.(illustration in chapter 4, figure 4.33), it is likely that this was a production model, and not a one-off made to special order, an explanation that always has to be entertained when faced with a very unusual feature. The function of the saw nib fascinates tool collectors, and has been "explained" in many ways, but it is surely enough to point out that whatever functions can be invented after the fact, the biggest names in saw making considered there was one purpose only: decoration.

Stewie;

[george wilson]

That,of course,Stewie,is just the opinion of the maker of those terribly soft and rough Garlick saws.

The owner of an old business may or may not know a lot about the product being made. For example,the present owner of a famous guitar making company in Spain(which even Segovia used,and Segovia used several other guitars),does not make guitars himself. He hires a number of makers who have to glue in the company label,but are allowed to stamp in their initials on the internal neck block. One person I know who frequented the place told me the owner was barely able to make it across the street by himself! His grand father,who was a good maker,started the business and established a good reputation among guitarists.

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi George. I make no judgment other than to quote what is written in the book. What I will do is pm you some links including some info about the author.

regards; Stewie

[Tony Zaffuto]

As Phineas said to Ferb, "Ferb, I know what we're going to do today (this weekend)"! I'm filing nibs into all of my saws (well maybe not all) and I shall report back my subjective opinion of difficulty of filing (of course, after calculating regression analysis of file wear). I don't think I will polish any of the saw plates before beginning this endeavor and what I do this weekend (actually only Saturday, since it is a hockey day in Pittsburgh on Sunday) will ultimately be determined by SWMBO and I don't know how much arguing she will take about the necessity of these nibs.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Not speaking defensively, but it should be pointed out, as George's example shows, that Henry Disston did not invent the nib- he copied it from much older saws. It was his opinion that it was decorative. I hold my belief that it was for tying on a protective cover, but I am not losing any sleep over it. It is on the list of questions to ask God when I die, along with what sharpening method he preferred, and why did he make mosquitoes?

By the way, George, I visited that luthier shop and their small museum (hallway with some of their older models displayed) when I hiked the Camino de Santiago. It was great to see.

[Stewie Simpson]

The D-8 legend goes: Henry Disston sketched his design on the factory floor to show his engineers what he had in mind. The theory put forth by the company in 1874 advertising (http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d8page.html#) was that the "peculiar formation of the blade actually stiffen[s] and strengthen[s] it in a remarkable degree." Just how less steel makes the blade stiffer and stronger is a good question, and by 1918 Disston's catalog said exactly the opposite:


"The advantage of one over the other is almost entirely a matter of personal (http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d8page.html#) preference. The skew-back blade is slightly lighter in weight.
A straight-back gives the blade more 'body' or stiffness. Therefore, men who use an especially heavy thrust pressure sometimes prefer the straight-back saw."

[george wilson]

Saws with ogee shaped noses and large nibs have been excavated at the 1607 Jamestown site.

[Doug Bowman]

This could make the saw plate hardness testing thread look like a book club!:D

[Tony Zaffuto]

This could make the saw plate hardness testing thread look like a book club!:D

This argument began during the American Revolution and has been fought as many times and as hard, as every battle this country has been engaged in, both on and off this continent.

Personally, I know for a fact it was placed on the saw, to give a back scratching point to the saw, since many users had been using the tooth side of the blade and causing open wounds, hence creating the rounded nib. Romans were the first and in their infinite wisdom, did not know how hard users would scratch, and to give a path for blood to flow away from their togas, also put the ogee. When it was learned that the nibs were mostly bloodless, the ogee soon fell out of use, and through the middle ages, many craftsmen argued why some old saws had ogees and why the ogee disappeared.

The Romans also had strict criteria for hardness of the saw plates and again as the saws became so consistent and similar, the testing was forgone as no longer needed and simply a vestige of the past.

[Bill Houghton]

So, I want to see the apparently right fancy Robert Sorby saw nib to which Stewie's quote refers.

[Moses Yoder]

So, I want to see the apparently right fancy Robert Sorby saw nib to which Stewie's quote refers.

+1 methinks

[Frederick Skelly]

This argument began during the American Revolution and has been fought as many times and as hard, as every battle this country has been engaged in, both on and off this continent.

Personally, I know for a fact it was placed on the saw, to give a back scratching point to the saw, since many users had been using the tooth side of the blade and causing open wounds, hence creating the rounded nib. Romans were the first and in their infinite wisdom, did not know how hard users would scratch, and to give a path for blood to flow away from their togas, also put the ogee. When it was learned that the nibs were mostly bloodless, the ogee soon fell out of use, and through the middle ages, many craftsmen argued why some old saws had ogees and why the ogee disappeared.

The Romans also had strict criteria for hardness of the saw plates and again as the saws became so consistent and similar, the testing was forgone as no longer needed and simply a vestige of the past.

I wonder if the romans knew how many angels (or nymphs maybe) could dance on the tip of a saw nib? :) :) :)

Sorry guys. I just couldnt resist. But Id sure love to see some of the amazing tool libraries you folks have. Im in awe.

[Ron Bontz]

I don't have the answers. Just more questions. I too have that book Stewie refers to. But I have not finished reading it yet. So:
The question is why is there a saw nib. The answers are predominately to hold a string and decoration.
String nib 1304538string nib 2 304539string nib 3304540 string nib 4304541 The possibilities are many. All very capable of holding a string for protecting the saw teeth. Now just imagine a handful of younger as well as older craftsman working under the same roof, for the same boss, etc. Labor was plentiful so competition, friendly or not, would ensue. All always wanting to make his/ her mark and win the attention of the boss. Not to mention a few extra shillings/ dollars and maybe a promotion. And of course we always want to be able to point to something and say " I made that because there is my mark, etc. I have never met a craftsman that did not have some sort of subtle mark some where on his/ her work to identify it. Some more obvious than others. It is, at least, my humble opinion, it doesn't matter much which came first. The chicken or the egg. They are both here and we may as well enjoy some poached eggs on toast or perhaps some fried chicken. They both serve a common purpose. Or two. That's my story and I am sticking with it. :D:D

[Ray Gardiner]

At the risk of having my membership of the "Secrets of the Nib Society" revoked, I can offer some additional clues as to the secret purpose of the nib.....

Clue number 1.. A Dutch Saw from around 1698

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/1698DutchNibLarger.jpg

Clue Number 2.... A Swedish Saw from the 1700's

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/1700sSwedishNibLarger.jpg

Clue Number 3..
When asked the purpose of the nib, Henry Disston, smiled and said... "tits on a bull"

Ray

PS... Tony Zaffuto's idea of a back scratcher works well... but more vigourous if you turn the saw around the other side... :)

[Stewie Simpson]

Heck. Might as well add this opinion as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KcVnAp2V50

[John Coloccia]

It doesn't matter why they were originally there. The only thing of importance is should we put them on the new saws we build, and what purpose do they serve? Since they DO work to hold covers on, arguing that it's not used for that is ridiculous, since it IS used for that. Intended or not, people use and accept that. If you think it's strictly there for decoration, and you think it's ugly, then leave them off, or make a little notch if you still want to hold your covers on. I happen to think they're ugly, distracting, and just plain tacky. I don't travel with my saws, so I would prefer them removed entirely, and if I had a saw with a nib on it I would probably just cut it off.

[John Stankus]

This could make the saw plate hardness testing thread look like a book club!:D


The saw nib is probably a test coupon for hardness testing. :). :)

John

[Tony Zaffuto]

I humbly vote against John's vote of distaste of the nib! In fact, I'm the opposite, and actually file nibs on to saws when there is none (not very often and only if I want the saw bad enough).

I do have a saw by a modern make with a butt-ugly, too big nib. I've had the saw about a half-dozen years and every so often I take the file to it to give it a better look, however, everything about the saw is out of scale, so an alteration here, needs to be compensated by an alteration there. Which brings me to a barely enough coffee fueled rant and that deals with modern makers trying to copy the vintage saws, but not looking at the vintage saws long enough to understand what it is they're copying: wrong hang, wrong length to width of saw plate ratio, wrong material in the handle and wrong spacing of saw nuts (if you're going to imitate a #12, put the saw nuts in the same relative area on the handle).

So, this brings me to the saws I like! Pax backsaws, mainly because of the folded backs and construction as they basically did decades ago. Tools for Working Wood's saws and again their excellent saws using folded backs, and sized much as a generic vintage saw would have been. I don't care much for makers using machined spines, but I do like the LV saws: taking a concept and making a very competitively priced saw, albeit without trying to copy anyone's. I would really like to see Rob Lee come out with a panel saw of his own and if he did, I would excuse the lack of nib, providing the saw had a straight back (have I mentioned my dislike of skew backs?".

[Stewie Simpson]

File the nib off John. That would be an outrageous act of sabotage. :eek:

Anyway. Here is what some others think is the purpose behind the saw nib.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/z_reading/1917-NIB-menTrainingMag/1917-menTrainingMag-NIB.asp


Marv Werner says: January 30, 2011 at 12:48 PM (https://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/quick-tip-10/comment-page-1/#comment-974)
I’m probably wrong about this, it seems I’m wrong about anything I think I know for sure.
I have only seen a nib on straight back saws, never on a skew back.
I suppose, as with the nib, there is no practical reason for that either.
Thanks for the nib filing lesson. I’ve filed in new nibs that were broken off, but have never filed a nib on a saw that didn’t previously have one.
I can only imagine what went through the minds of the old time saw workers who were required to file nibs on certain saws. “Why do I have to do this? This seems to be such a waste of time. What’s the damn thing for anyway? I hate this job, spending all this time that could be better spent on maybe filing in teeth or making handles.”

Reply (https://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/quick-tip-10/?replytocom=974#respond)


Bob (http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com/) says:
January 30, 2011 at 12:50 PM (https://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/quick-tip-10/comment-page-1/#comment-975)
Marv,
No, I think you are right. I still think you know what you are talking about :). You just keep doing what you’re doing.
My observations are the same as yours. I’ve only seen nibs on straight backed saws, not on skew backs. I have a thing for straight backed saws though. I much prefer them to skew backs. If only I could find the 4 PPI #7 I’ve been looking long and hard for. Gonna have to make my own I think. I’m not really looking forward to filing such large teeth into a 0.042″ thick plate though.
I’m not sure that the skew back accomplishes much. Disston said it made the saw plate stronger, but I think that was likely marketing hype. I can’t see how it would make the plate stronger. It would make it lighter though, and that could be a good thing for on site carpenters who need to transport their tools frequently.
Your dialog gave me a good chuckle. I think you’re probably right. I wonder if they theorized about it’s purpose as much as we do today? I can see them blaming “the suits” for designing such a stupid feature.
https://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/quick-tip-10/

The question as to why weren't there nibs on the skewback saws?? I'm guessing the long swoopy curve of the skewback didn't have a plain uninterrupted straight back that needed a nib to break up the line. A nib would have been kind of like a belt and suspenders on the same pair of pants, of a look.
http://wkfinetools.com/contrib/pScott/z_short/01182007-Nib.asp

The nib is a decorative bump filed into the steel plate of the saw along the spine towards the toe (the narrow working end). It is not used for starting a cut. It is not for securing a tooth guard. And it’s definitely not for testing the temper of the saw during manufacturing. Its decorative.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/CiantiM/buySaw/buySaw-01.asp

The three saws introduced in 1927 were undistinguishable from their wider bladed counterparts as far as the handle fit and finish are concerned. These saws continued as part of the main Disston line until August 1, 1928. On this date, the line was completdy revised. Many of the specialty saws were dropped. All the saws from this point on would be produced with straight or skewed backs, but the "nib" was dropped forever from straight back saws. The saws offered came in two basic types: regular pattern and lightweight pattern.
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/ftj/spring99/spring99.html

[John Coloccia]

File the nib off John. That would be an outrageous act of sabotage. :eek:


Ha ha....anyone who's ever worked with me as an engineer knows that I have very little reverence for my tools. I made something of a habit of taking apart rather expensive, finicky equipment, and "re-engineering" bits and pieces until I was happy. Some manufacturers, that were more accustomed to working in an R&D environment, were actually quite helpful! Newport and Agilent come to mind. It wouldn't be uncommon for me to call them up and to have a conversation with the guy in charge of that product, and we'd have a nice chit chat about the best way to modify their equipment to get me what I need.

So yeah, my shop is a nib free zone!