Canadians Purchasing Tools in the United States

[Brye Goodspeed]

As a Canadian its difficult to get local suppliers to bring in the variety available in the United States. In some cases the supplier does not offer a CSA Certified version for the Canadian market.

Question is, have any Canadians opted to pick up tools state side? If so, what issues if any have you experienced?

[Myk Rian]

I do know that you tell customs the machines are for hobby use.

[Lee Schierer]

As a product engineer in a former employment, we used to obtain UL and CSA listings on the equipment we manufactured. ETL and EU have also entered the world of manufacturing approvals. However, the costs and differing electrical codes have driven the manufacturers away form obtaining multiple listings. I purchased a Delta Band saw in Canada and brought it home with no problems. I don't know about taking tools the other way if you are not planning on returning to the US.

[Mark Kornell]

I'm Canadian, have a bunch of Grizzly tools in my shop. Pick some up and brought them back myself, others I had shipped.

No issues either way. While they may ask you as the border if it is for hobby or business use, that only affects how the import classified for duty purposes. You don't get the personal exemption for business imports. But you can still import.

The CSA listing is an electrical code and possibly insurance issue. You can import regardless - CBSA won't check and doesn't care. You use a non-CSA tool at your own risk, though. Electricians are not supposed to hook up a non-CSA devise, and most insurance policies will exclude based on the electrical code violation if the device ever causes a claim.

It is possible to have devices individually CSA certified once they are in Canada. Not sure how to go about getting this done, though.

[mreza Salav]

What machines are you talking about? You can find similar machines (or identical ones) and given the $ ratio it doesn't seem very attractive to shop south of the border (not as much as it used to be).

[Rick Fisher]

Border doesn't care about CSA.. They will want the country of origin if the value exceeds the exemption.

[Craig Hoehn]

You can get the electrical certification done yourself, but its a little risky because they will likely find a few things that would need to be replaced. The electrical certification is a provincial requirement and typically the provincial electrical inspector will list all the companies that they deem qualified to do a certification. Companies like CSA, Intertek, ULC, ESA, and a few others will do the certification to CSA-SPE-1000. Ive heard prices range from 400 to 4000 depending on the complexity of the equipment, and where the inspector is located. If you can find an inspector in your city it should be fairly easy and there are actually quite a few electricians that can do the certification. Here are the interpretations for Saskatchewan, read page 13. http://www.saskpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2012-Interpretations-FINAL.pdf Each Provence should have something similar.

[Dan Hintz]

I'd love some clarifications from the CA folk (or at least folks who have crossed the border, never having done so myself).

I was told the border patrol were really only on a few main roads... taking a back road (albeit somewhat longer trip) would avoid all of that. Do said backroads exist? If so, it would seem a huge oversight, but then again, it's a huge border, and it's not like us 'mericans are doing that great patrolling the Mexican border.

[Harvey Miller]

I'd love some clarifications from the CA folk (or at least folks who have crossed the border, never having done so myself).

I was told the border patrol were really only on a few main roads... taking a back road (albeit somewhat longer trip) would avoid all of that. Do said backroads exist? If so, it would seem a huge oversight, but then again, it's a huge border, and it's not like us 'mericans are doing that great patrolling the Mexican border.

Forty years ago that was true- I know at least one place where the road across the border was blocked by a swing down post with a border sign, and cross border towns that were pretty informal, but I doubt anything like that exists today. At the very least they would have sensors to detect traffic- both on the roads and the surrounding woods.

[Brye Goodspeed]

Mreza, I am considering a few actually. Benchtop Mortiser, Drill Press (Floor) 15" Planer, and a 10" Cabinet Saw.

Even with the current exchange rate, and the potential for duty at the border some of these machines are still a better buy. It's not just the dollar though, its quality vs. the dollars spent too.

[David Masters]

I don't know about roads unmanned by border agents, but Canada does have a remote border crossing permit that the last time I obtained one, was good for two years. I've used it to cross the border in a canoe or when hiking in areas where Canada no longer kept border or customs stations in the area.

[Gregory King]

Bought a Delta drill press about 5 years ago, when the exchange rate was close to par. Had it shipped to the nearest Maine border point. Tracked the shipping and called the receiver on a Thursday when it arrived. I picked up on the following Saturday AM. Brought the item info to the custom office and paid the GST. 13%. Slick way to do business. Company shipped to all states for the same rate. Greg

[Phil Thien]

At the very least they would have sensors to detect traffic- both on the roads and the surrounding woods.

Seriously?

Can anyone confirm that?

[Harvey Miller]

Here's one example
"The last time a guy he knew walked across the line nearby, the U.S. Border Patrol chopper was overhead in two minutes, and some witless creep with a bullhorn was shouting down at the guy, telling him to report to the patrol post right friggin’ now"
http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/ja10/stanstead-border-town.asp

[Peter Kelly]

Load it all onto a boat and sail across Lake Ontario / Huron / Superior.

[fRED mCnEILL]

I live close to the US/CANADA border and buy a fair amount in the US.First of all this isn't like the Mexican border. Here, they know whenever anyone crosses. Secondly if you are bringing something accross into Canada for business you are almost gauranteed to have to get a broker to process it. If it is for personal use you only have to worry about taxes or maybe duty if it is manufactured outside the US. My experience is if the purchase is under $300 they usually let you go. USUALLY. And its not often they ask where it was made. Canada and the US are in a free trade arrangement so it iusually is only GST (5%) and PST. In B.C. that is 7%.
There are quite a number of shipping depots in Wa that serve Canadians from B.C. As a matter of fact my daughter picked up 2 shipments yesterday-shoes for her and sandpaper for me. It came to about $200 and they just waived her through.

If the total is higher take you wife along as it increases the exemption.

[Dan Hintz]

He says there are sensors in the ground and maybe cameras hidden in the trees.
LOL... uhm, no. Sounds like someone loves conspiracy theories. About the only place you'll find ground sensors are in high-security areas (White House, certain military facilities, etc.)

[mreza Salav]

What level/brand are you looking at? If you are considering Grizzly I highly doubt there is much (if any at all) difference between that and the CX line of
Busybee. For example the following two machines look (even specs) identical:

http://www.busybeetools.com/products/cabinet-table-saw-10in-3hp-w-50in-rail-csa.html
http://grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691

the price of Grizzly after shipping and exchange rate will be higher. Busybee comes with 3-year warranty and it's local at least.
I have neither of the machines so can't comment on quality of either.

[ken masoumi]

If the total is higher take you wife along as it increases the exemption.

I can't even do that,my wife always makes me look suspicious.

[Jim Matthews]

Well yeah - she's way
better looking.

[Myk Rian]

If the total is higher take you wife along as it increases the exemption.
Well, that would blow the idea for the trip, wouldn't it? :D

[Jason Currah]

Depends where you are crossing... I think they are all monitored now. Some of the very far eastern crossings( Maine and Vermont)are not very busy and have been known not to be monitored. Where I am in Southern Ontario the crossings ( 11 of them ) all have around 6 lanes open all the time and are quite busy sometimes up to 12 lanes open depending on what crossing.

[Jason Currah]

I also wanted to add to the OP that I just ordered a Benchdog Cast iron router top for TS and some Tenryu TS blades for my Hammer and am going to be crossing to get them next week, I don't foresee any problems, aside from paying taxes upon taxes.

[David Helm]

To answer the question about sensors; yes they do exist. The BC/Washington border has many miles of truly rugged mountain wilderness. People have tried to cross through there and been caught by sensors. One place even dug a tunnel from a house through the border into Canada. At least at this area, border control is intense. Every bit as intense as on the Southern border. Smuggling is smuggling regardless of where it comes from.

[Peter Kelly]

With all the cigarettes and guns smuggled into Canada from the US, I can't imagine bringing in a few tools (untaxed) would be terribly difficult. There's over 1,000 miles of border between New York, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. Plenty of remote crossings aren't staffed at all.

[Jim Becker]

One consideration if you are going to self-import is relative to warranty status...you may be on your own or have to return across the border if you have issues that would normally be considered under warranty when the product is purchased and placed in service under the manufacturer's normal terms and conditions. This may very well apply to a manufacturer who does not normally sell in Canada. In some arenas, products purchased and moved like this are considered "gray market" and are ineligible for warranty coverage.

[rudy de haas]

We buy stuff in Montana all the time - bringing it back is usually simple: just pay the guy at the border whatever he asks and act as if you don't mind.

Buying stuff that has to be shipped is different. We bought 32 tons of granite in Montana and for that kind of thing it is best and cheapest to hire a big name broker like Livingstone so your trucker faces no surprises at the border.

On the other hand, I tried to buy grizzly tools but ran into their refusal to take any kind of responsibility for shipping while, at the same time, imposing their choice of shipper and broker - both UPS. Sadly, my UPS experience is that they're sometimes ok, and sometimes not, but there is no appeal -and what do you do when the driver wants dollars he isn't owed but will take your pre-paid tool away if you don't pay? Grizzly could fix this in a heartbeat, but they aren't interested - possibly because busybee is a related company selling many of the same products in Canada.

The CSA certification issue is simple: the certification is meaningless except with respect to downstream legal issues. Burn your shop down with a non csa tool anywhere nearby and it's your fault. Period. Sell the tool used to someone else, and not only is that illegal but his problems become your problems -even years later. Getting a tool you already have cerified is possible, but costs depend mainly on distance and the individual you happen to get - it's like dealing with UPS: your choices are to pay whatever they ask or forfeit a paid-for tool - and, again, there's no work able method of appealing an over-payment. (Technically there is, but the cost will bankrupt you).

[Steve Milito]

To answer the question about sensors; yes they do exist. The BC/Washington border has many miles of truly rugged mountain wilderness. People have tried to cross through there and been caught by sensors. One place even dug a tunnel from a house through the border into Canada. At least at this area, border control is intense. Every bit as intense as on the Southern border. Smuggling is smuggling regardless of where it comes from.

You should watch the movie "Kid Cannabis" a movie based on a cross Canadian border smuggling ring circa 2000.

[fRED mCnEILL]

"One place even dug a tunnel from a house through the border into Canada"
The interesting thing here was that both ends of the tunnel were within viewing distance of the manned border crossing. Now thats gutsy, although not to smart.

[Dan Hintz]

To answer the question about sensors; yes they do exist. The BC/Washington border has many miles of truly rugged mountain wilderness. People have tried to cross through there and been caught by sensors. One place even dug a tunnel from a house through the border into Canada. At least at this area, border control is intense. Every bit as intense as on the Southern border. Smuggling is smuggling regardless of where it comes from.

The sensors used are limited, at best. They can't use siesmic sensors up north due to the cold... once the ground freezes, the sensors are useless. IR sensors are limited to line of site... that's fine if we're talking about the land directly surrounding a gate house, but beyond that it gets more difficult. Motion sensors need to be set up correctly... don't want deer/moose setting off false alarms, so their application is typically limited to gate houses that aren't normally manned.

When it comes to the cold north with lots of trees, people are the best sensors.

[Brye Goodspeed]

Mreza, the machines I am considering importing are the Jet 15" Planer, Jet Drill Press, and Jet Mortiser.

In regards to the 15" Planer, if I go Laguna or Powermatic am I getting a greater quality for the additional cost? Jet looks to be very solid at a competitive price.

Unfortunately Jet isn't imported to my area so I am going solely on reviews and other peoples opinions.

[Mike Chalmers]

Can't believe the discussion about how to break the law. Is that really a good idea?

[Erik Manchester]

Nobody here is advocating lawbreaking, however, info sharing on how to exploit existing regulations is not wrong.

The borders are under increasing surveillance and just because you don't see the watchers does not mean you are not being observed, assume you are watched and behave accordingly.

Never worth it to lie to CBSA as they have all the aces and now know exactly when you left Canada. Your vehicle, trailer, and contents can all be seized. It is just not worth it to save a few hundred dollars.

Sometimes you get lucky at a busy crossing and the agent passes you through for smaller items, but not always.

Honesty is always the best policy.

[Peter Kelly]

I think if you spend over 48 hrs in the US, you'll get a much lower taxation rate. Might be worth it on a big ticket item.

[Erik Loza]

One consideration if you are going to self-import is relative to warranty status...you may be on your own or have to return across the border if you have issues that would normally be considered under warranty when the product is purchased and placed in service under the manufacturer's normal terms and conditions. This may very well apply to a manufacturer who does not normally sell in Canada. In some arenas, products purchased and moved like this are considered "gray market" and are ineligible for warranty coverage.

This ^^^^

No opinion on what anyone should or shouldn't do but I know that with our machinery, the buyer is screwed if he resides outside the country of purchase and needs warranty support. Also, I believe that at least in shops, Canadian machines require CSA compliance on electrical components, something we don't realy do here in the US. So, there is that potential liability issue for shops or businesses. But maybe for a hobby guy, it doesn't matter.

Erik Loza
Minimax

[mreza Salav]

Brye, are you a member of Canadian woodworking forum? You might get a lot more suggestions if you post your question there.
I have purchased tools across the border myself but not very frequently. You need to really check into all your options as I think in most cases the savings are very little (if any) and are not worth the extra hassles/dangers. Jet is not allowed to sell in Canada because of the brand name registered here.
I have only one powermatic machine (3520B lathe) and I purchased it from a US dealer that would drop ship free (without any extra costs) at my door. I can't compare the quality of this to other brands as there is no other lathe similar to this but I suspect you can find brands that are about the same level of Jet at least for the machines you are looking at.

[Rod Sheridan]

This ^^^^

No opinion on what anyone should or shouldn't do but I know that with our machinery, the buyer is screwed if he resides outside the country of purchase and needs warranty support. Also, I believe that at least in shops, Canadian machines require CSA compliance on electrical components, something we don't realy do here in the US. So, there is that potential liability issue for shops or businesses. But maybe for a hobby guy, it doesn't matter.

Erik Loza
Minimax

Hi Erik, the Canadian Electrical Code doesn't distinguish between hobby or commercial use.

All electrical items must carry an indication of approval to Canadian Standards before power is applied.............Regards, Rod.

[John Gornall]

Interesting to note that many Grizzly tools are now CSA certified.

[Rod Sheridan]

Interesting to note that many Grizzly tools are now CSA certified.

Smart move on their part............Rod.

[Erik Loza]

Interesting: Thanks, Rod.

Erik Loza
Minimax

[Chris Friesen]

Hi Erik, the Canadian Electrical Code doesn't distinguish between hobby or commercial use.

All electrical items must carry an indication of approval to Canadian Standards before power is applied.............Regards, Rod.

I think the rules may be different depending on the province.

The thing I've often wondered is how a strict CSA-approval is supposed to work for home-built equipment. If I take CSA-listed wire/switch/motor/plug and hook it all up, the resulting tool is *not* CSA-listed. (Since the assembly as a whole hasn't been validated.) And yet people do this all the time. Lee Valley sells a belt sander that requires you to install your own motor/switch/wire/plug.

[Rod Sheridan]

I think the rules may be different depending on the province.

The thing I've often wondered is how a strict CSA-approval is supposed to work for home-built equipment. If I take CSA-listed wire/switch/motor/plug and hook it all up, the resulting tool is *not* CSA-listed. (Since the assembly as a whole hasn't been validated.) And yet people do this all the time. Lee Valley sells a belt sander that requires you to install your own motor/switch/wire/plug.

I'm not aware of any Canadian jurisdictions that don't use that clause from the CEC.

Yes people break the law all the time, no issues until something goes wrong, or you get caught..........Rod.

[Erik Loza]

....Yes people break the law all the time, no issues until something goes wrong, or you get caught..........Rod.

I once asked one our brand managers why it was that some of our competitors were able to offer the Euro-style "bridge" guard for their joiner/planers, which is not OSHA-approved here in the US, while we are only able to ship machines with the OSHA-approved pork shop-style guard.

His reply was, "Probably because they haven't been sued yet".

Erik Loza
Minimax

[mike mcilroy]

Lake Erie or St.Clair depending on location. LOL
I just got my Grizzly G0441 3hp cyclone delivered today.Driver wheeled it right into the shop for me.
They subtract the broker fee off the list price too. Broker calls to verify credit card when machine gets to the border ( American side) before it comes in. When they verify # they tell you what the charge will be. mine was just taxes and broker fee no duty. Grizzly customer service very good as far as making a change to the order and helping track shipment. Shipping was $160. but in the shopping cart before putting in Canadian address it was $99.
Considering the thing weighed 400lbs +, and there is zero selection up here I found that not too bad.

[Lee Reep]

Load it all onto a boat and sail across Lake Ontario / Huron / Superior.

Or get David Masters to carry it across in his canoe ...

[Harvey Miller]

Amazon Canada now lists a number of Grizzly tools with 'free shipping'. I assume they would have to be CSA approved. Not sure how the base prices compare.

[Rod Sheridan]

Amazon Canada now lists a number of Grizzly tools with 'free shipping'. I assume they would have to be CSA approved. Not sure how the base prices compare.

Nope, you can buy anything, you just can't use it unless it has an approval............Rod.

[Harvey Miller]

Thanks for that, Rod. I contacted Amazon.ca about it but they wouldn't give an across the board answer on CSA approval. They asked the specific Grizzly item I was interested in.

[Brye Goodspeed]

Can't believe the discussion about how to break the law. Is that really a good idea?

Mike, not looking to break any laws, just wanted to know what issues I may encounter at the border crossing. I will not be taking this avenue after some of this feedback. If it voids the tool warranty, and brings me insurance issues the savings just isn't worth it. I am disappointed that some manufacturers aren't available to Canada. We no longer have Delta or Canadian Made General as an option so that really narrows the field.