Laguna 14 Twelve table trunnion issue

[James Nugnes]

Just noticed something on my Laguna 14 Twelve that I did not notice or try during assembly.

The table will not lift past 30* of angle without the guide bracket inside the upper or table half of the trunnion snagging and stopping the table from continuing on to its max 45*. It does not lift smoothly in traveling from 0* to 30* and will not go past 30*. In fact the table with its half of the trunnions begins to lift off of the bottom half of the trunnions at 30* it snags so badly. I have taken those silly plastic ratcheting handles off entirely in an effort to see if that helps me understand why the trunnions and guide bracket will not rotate the table up and down smoothly as they should. But that yields no new information.

There is really nothing more simplistic than the trunnion design on the table of a bandsaw. I can say with some degree of confidence that I have never seen so much slop in the interface between the guide bracket that the trunnion bolt sits in and the trunnions themselves. I can move the table left and right at the back near the pillar much more than I would have thought makes sense which says to me that the tolerances for those interfaces are wide indeed.

At any rate, while it makes no sense at all to me, is there a chance that the guide brackets for the trunnion bolts are rotated 180* and that is why they will not operate smoothly. Again it does not make sense to me as there is no reason for there to be a front and back to that bracket. The bolt should go right through the middle of the guide bracket and the guide bracket itself should just glide in the channels cut for it in the upper half or the table side of the trunnion. The trunnions should be cut to maintain the same angle through the entire range of travel from 0* to 45*. So that should not be an issue either.

The facing halves of the trunnions themselves look fine but that says nothing for the channels inside the upper trunnion where the guide bracket rests.

But there has to be something amiss. If you can get both bolts into their individual trunnions and hanging down through the guide brackets and through the holes in the bottom half of the trunnions then there should be no adjustment required and the table should glide up and down smoothly from 0-45* and back again. But mine won't and without any more information the only thing I can attribute it to is trunnions themselves were cut out of tolerance such that the guide brackets will not glide smoothly in their channels as they should. They don't even appear to be off by the same amount as I can move the table left to right and get a little more travel out of the trunnions.

I refuse to force it as that does not make any sense either. It should not have to be forced.

Any ideas?

[James Nugnes]

While I would have preferred that Laguna replace the table, they did come up with something anyway. The guy I talked to had this same problem with his 14 twelve. Fortunate for me as nobody else there had any idea what I was talking about nor knew what to do about it.

If you are having issues tilting the table on your 14 twelve this is the recommendation from Laguna.

Unfortunately you will have to remove the table and reinstall it twice to complete the adjustment as Laguna recommends it. There are three allen bolts that hold each upper trunnion to the underside of the table. They are apparently in slightly oblong holes although I have not looked at them yet. They are hidden from view when the upper trunnion is resting on the lower. You have to remove the table from the saw. Turn the table upside down or do whatever you have to do to get access to the underside of the upper trunnions. Just loosen those six allen bolts enough so that there will be some play in them if they are under pressure (not a particularly exacting instruction but there it is). Then reinstall the table onto the saw. Tighten the ratcheting handles just to where they would be if you had loosening them intending to tilt the table. Then slowly run the table through its specified range of travel. Hopefully what will happen if you have loosened the allen bolts correctly is that they will realign themselves into more advantageous positions thus realigning the upper half of the trunnions themselves to the table and the lower half of the trunnions. Then carefully take the table back off the saw and snug the allen bolts back down again. You are hoping that the trunnions and the allen bolts do not move when you remove the table and tighten the allen bolts. Hopefully then your table will slide freely through its specified range of degrees from 0-45*.

This was the problem with the tech's 14 Twelve. So I am hoping it is the same issue in my case and I am hoping I can do the repair successfully. If it is not these bolts in misalignment in my case then the channels in the trunnions have to be at fault.

Frankly while I recognize shipping tables back and forth under warranty is a big issue for Laguna, the repair they recommend is not exactly falling off a log. If those allen bolts move when you take the table back off the saw or when you tighten them all has been for naught. If there is not enough range of adjustment in the bolt positions all has been for naught and I would bet doing this carefully will take 45 minutes to an hour for two people. You won't really know if you have succeeded until you get the table back into the saw again with the table functioning properly.

While I would commend the one guy at Laguna that knew what this was, the repair seems sort of iffy to me in many ways. It might work out fine. That is a good deal to do to correct something that should have been done correctly at the factory. I have never ever seen a bandsaw table so far out of whack before. It is not even close to being properly aligned as it is right now.

[James Nugnes]

Well folks....this should be the last you hear from me on my Laguna 14 Twelve trunnion and table tilt issue. The repair recommendations from the Laguna Tech did work as he suggested they would. They are a pain because of having to remove and reinstall the table twice more to get the job done per the official Laguna fix but the table now tilts as it should. I am finally now to the point where I can install a blade and fire the thing up, two quality issues and three weeks into ownership.

I have one last comment to make on this trunnion and table tilt issue which is ancillary to the actual problem that I had.

Once I finally got the table tilting properly this evening I decided that since I was already in there, I would go ahead and move the knob that sits atop the lower guide block to the right position, pointed toward the front wheel from its left position pointed toward the pillar. It is shipped in the left position though there are two threaded holes in the top of the guide block. My recommendation....do not I repeat do not move the knob to the right side hole as is recommended in the Laguna installation video. There are situations where the knob will in fact interfere with the underside of the table.

I only discovered this after getting the table to tilt properly and deciding to move the knob per the video. But if you think you are ever going to tilt your table, you might well find that you have positioned the guide block such that the knob when in the right side position interferes with the bottom of the table. I cannot tell you if the position of the guide block is an operating position when interference occurs. But to me, it does not matter. That it interferes at all tells me not to move that knob to the right side position. That makes now three separate instances where there was a niggling, unexpected (because you usually don't find these specific issues on bandsaws) quality problem coupled with the folks at Laguna really not knowing the full ramifications of their recommendations.

By all appearances this is a really nice, really good 14" bandsaw that has some accessory parts that are just poorly manufactured, some integral parts that are fine but poorly assembled and the company with the name plate pretty clueless about how the tool is manufactured, its design tolerances and a whole host of other traps for you to fall into. I am not convinced at this point that Laguna has more to do with this tool than producing a performance spec for an ODM to design and manufacture to, painting their name on it and marketing and post sale product support. That is fine as far as it goes. But if you have enough discussions with Laguna and even just watch their assembly video, you discover that the mother ship in California does not appear to know very much about the actual ins and outs of this particular tool.

Word to the wise....just watch it and be careful until you have it completely assembled and operating properly. At that point you can probably just go ahead and treat it with no more or less respect than you would treat any power tool and I think you have yourself a darned fine tool once you get it sorted out. But so far at least for me and my specific 14 twelve, there has been surprises around almost every corner before even being able to fire it up.

[David C. Roseman]

Thanks for posting your experience on this, James. Never know when it may save someone with a similar issue a lot of grief getting up the learning curve.

[James Nugnes]

I know this thread is turning into a manual supplement. I did not intend that. Thought I would just provide a little info on one part of the assembly not well documented in either the Laguna manual or the video at their web site. There is so much that seems to need a bit of fine tuning on this thing as part of the initial set up, none of which is properly documented. it just did not make sense to me to go through it without help and then leave everybody else to go through it as well.

So, on to the next item. Before I delve into today's little adventure, a word about the table tilt bolt handles and the table pin handle. These tilt bolt handles are ratcheting. The pin handle is not and it need not be. However all three seem to be made from reconstituted plastic molded around metal threads. It might be something better...maybe spun fiber and polymid. I will figure it out. The ratcheting handles are frankly terrible. I might see if I can buy two replacements from somewhere. The guy that does the video on this tool at the Laguna web site even recommends that you simply push the button on the ratcheting handle and thread it as if the ratcheting feature were not even there. Does not exactly instill confidence. Anyway if you want to use the ratcheting feature I would not be too aggressive with it.

On to today's assembly/set up adventure.

While the manual discusses the table having been factory set for level, mine was not level in any axis and had to be adjusted both front to back and side to side.

There is no direction or instruction for side to side adjustment. However when you tilt the table and look at the pin that the table rests on back by the pillar, you can see that the bolt that is in fact the pin is threaded and has an extra nut on it to cinch it to the bottom of the table. I used this bolt/pin to level the table side to side. in my case the side of the table back by the pillar was low.

Now as for the leveling of the table relative to the blade "saints be praised" there is some instruction in the manual. However it still leaves you wanting as the size of the allans in the manual is wrong and instead of actually giving you any help with regard to how many turns you should use to adjust, the manual simply says to make "small adjustments" as they have a major impact when squaring up the blade to the table.....thanks a lot!

So, when you tilt the table and tighten the table tilt bolts you have access to the adjustment fixtures, blade to table. In my case, the front of my table was low relative to the blade. looking at the big cast support brackets under the table (this is the piece with the trunnions) there are three threaded holes that you can see that have allens and then six hex head bolts. Two of the allens actually adjust this big cast piece and the hex heads hold it to the frame. Unfortunately, the Allens are so deep in their holes that you cannot see the heads unless the table is completely off the saw. I was not about to go through that again, at least not right now. The manual says these are 5/16" allens. They may be 5/16" in diameter but the Allens themselves are far too small to take a 5/16" allen wrench. I was not using allen wrenches that were marked and I did not take the time to put the one that fit on a gauge. But I think it was likely a 5/32" wrench.

As for making the adjustments, since the heads are really deep in their threaded holes you are really a bit worried that you will not reach them. Mine did reach. Now when you look at the manual it will tell you that you must loosen an allen on one side of the table and the corresponding hex heads on the other side, then tighten the allen on the other side and tighten the corresponding hex heads. If you made enough of an adjustment, you are done.

OK so the manual does not give you any help with regard to how many turns and what they will yield. As such I actually started at less than 1/4 turns until I could see what i had. I would say that a half turn of adjustment on the allens will yield a little less than 1/8" of table adjustment. I needed about 3/16" of table adjustment in total. I got it in what turned out to be a full turn on the adjustment allens. So using the top for reference, clockwise turns will tighten and counter-clockwise turns will loosen. At first the adjustment allens are very tough to move and since you can't see the heads you are a little worried. But just make sure you have good contact between the allen wrench and the allen itself. It will finally budge or at least I should say mine did. I used strips of tape that i marked each time I made an adjustment in case I screwed up. I wanted to be able to trace my steps in reverse and go back to the beginning if I thought I needed to do that. End result, the table is now level side to side and the blade is in alignment with the table. All by way of saying, that is one more hairy scary set up job that needed to be done, completed.

On the bright side, while I have not purchased the Carter Blue tires for this saw, the saw is very quiet and there is very little vibration. In fact it is hard to call what this saw does vibration there is so little of it. It is very smooth running. I have to say that I am impressed with this aspect of the saw and surprised as well given the comments from those that upgraded to the Carter Blue tires right away. My advice would be to wait before making that decision. the Carters are fine tires but you might be able to save that money for a purchase you will get more out of if your saw is like my saw.

The blade went on nicely by the way. I just needed about a 1/4 turn of the adjustment knob in order to true up the top wheel. So that was also pretty impressive out of the box. Can't remember any whacky set up details for the guides. They were pretty straightforward top and bottom. As is the case with guides generally, it takes a little bit of time to get used to them. Still and all, they seem fine to me. Again I do love how well balanced everything is once you get everything adjusted right. The thing runs so smoothly that the slightest bit of interference, lets say because you have not quite set up the guides right and they are interfering a bit more than they should with the blade will show up in a difference in how smooth the turning action of wheels and blade. As soon as you get it right, you see it....very very nice.

The Rockler workbench light I bought for it has working out nicely as well. I have a fluorescent bulb with a soft silicon cover over it and that also works nicely. Anyway, with any luck

[Matt Krusen]

James, thank you for your additional chapter to the manual! I have been eyeing this bandsaw for some time now. After the issues that you have dealt with, would you say the saw is still worth getting? How is the performance now that you have things running smoothly for the most part? If you had to do it again, would you buy the same saw or save a bit longer and look elsewhere? Be it Laguna or another manufacturer.

[James Nugnes]

Matt,

I think it is a terrific saw and a good value. I know it is a little more costly than some 14's. But I would say that given the features the quality of the components, it is probabaly about $1600, maybe $1700 worthy of saw for about $1,000.

The issues with the product at least that I have had are manufacturing assembly issues and since it appears that Laguna is not actually assembling this saw, their office in California where there Tech Support and Customer Service is located does not know much about the product. Hence they struggle to fill in the many gaps that are in both the manual and the assembly video at their web site.

But with the exception of those funky plastic handles, the parts are well made of good materials.....Sloppy manufacturing assembly is I think at the root of most if not all of the issues with this saw. They need a good technical writer for this product as well. The manual is full of prose instead of step by step instructions with exception trees. Frankly if you look at the posts that I have made that try to fill in the blanks they really are explanations of the exceptions I have found with instructions on how to make the adjustments required.

But once sorted out, I really enjoy the saw.

As I mentioned in the earlier post, I have not installed the Carter Blue Tires and I really am struggling with whether I would get value out of getting the Carter Blues as an upgrade. If I ever wear my tires out the "Blues" would very likely be the tires I would buy as replacements. But I am very impressed with the smooth operation and the lack of vibration as is with the stock tires. I was prepared to be critical of that and so I was really looking for "trouble" if you know what I mean. But I simply can't justify the investment in the Blues as an upgrade and that says a good deal for the saw.

As you have read, I went through a good deal of aggravation to get the saw were I wanted it be. There are some things that needed adjustment that I did not expect on the one hand, and very poorly written documentation to assist on the other hand and that is a tough combination. That is also why I decided to just keep coming back to this thread as I continued to work on the saw.

I will probably have one more add that will be in the spirit of the other posts, but this last one coming will be more of a technical note than an adjustment procedure. I think the problem solving is behind me.

The only thing I am looking at going forward now is possibly getting replacements for the two ratcheting handles that are on the table tilt bolts. Those ratcheting handles could be a bit more crisp in operation. But on the other hand, I don't tilt my saw that much. It is not like I do it every day or even every other day. I would recommend the saw and say BOOKMARK THIS THREAD!

If you get one and run into some issues, feel free to hit the thread with a post or PM me and I will try to help.

[James Nugnes]

I had hoped that the last set of adjustment advice I provided for this bandsaw would be the last but no....there was one more waiting in the weeds for me. Hopefully now this will be the last.

The upper wheel support assembly rides in a bracket that is welded to the back of the upper wheel housing. The bracket itself has been fabricated out of large U-channel and the spring rides inside the two wings of the U-channel. There are two sets of long bolt (about four inches in length with two washers, one on each side and a nylox nut on the opposite end from the bolt head. These two bolt assemblies ride up and down in two oblong slots. The one above is closer to the wheel than the one below. As you tension or loosen the tensioning wheel, the upper wheel rides up or down on these two bolts in their respective oblong slots.

Apparently, there is a tendency on the part of the saw assemblers to over tighten the nylox nut on the bolt. The result is that the wheel hangs in certain spots and no matter how much you adjust the tensioning wheel, it will not move because the bolts will not move in their slots. I can see where it would also be possible for the assemblers not to get the bolt assemblies in proper alignment having the same result as the bolts attempt to ride up in down in their respective slots. This would cause the bolts to ride at an angle to each other as opposed to straight up and down and the result is the same. An upper wheel that snags as you try to tension or loosen it.

The cure requires that you remove the upper wheel. First bring the guide post down far enough so that the wheel will clear the magnetic strip upon removal. Removing the wheel gives you a good feel for how little force is appropriate for the nut that holds the wheel on the shaft. Suffice to say it is very little indeed and that is the way it is supposed to be.

Pull the wheel off the shaft to get access to the two bolt assemblies riding in their slots. Loosen the nylox nuts until you can clearly see at least a thread on the bolt. You have to hold the bolt head in a wrench in order to turn the nylox nut on the other end and threading from 12:00 down to 6:00 will loosen the nylox nut. I don't like to adjust on nylox. Nylox nuts are designed to be installed and left alone as much as possible. I have been known to remove nylox nuts entirely preferring to install new as opposed to adjust existing. So try to do this once right so you don't have to go back again. Now thread the nylox nut back but only as far as it takes so that the two washers are clearly not flopping around. You should not be able to see any threads on the bolts for the washers to be right. Do not even thread further by as much as a half turn on the nylox nut past the point where you can't see any threads on the bolt and the washers are straight up and down with no slop in them. Take the whole wheel assembly up and back down again such that you can see that the two bolt assemblies ride smoothly in their slots without snagging anywhere. If they are able to do this without the weight of the wheel to assist them, surely they should be fine with the wheel back in place. If the assemblies can go all the way from top to bottom and back to the top again smoothly, you can put the wheel back on again. Thread the shaft bolt counterclockwise to retighten it. Only tighten as far as what is required to remove it by hand again. Do not put a wrench of any sort on this nut. You should be done at this point. Take the whole wheel assembly up and down such that the bolts have to ride their entire travel in the oblong slots making sure that there is no snagging anywhere.

[Marvin Felli]

James, thanks for taking the time and energy to provide information about serious issues on the Laguna 14/12. For me, those problems would be extremely aggravating. Your talent to make the needed adjustments is a great benefit to you, but in my case, no such talent. The repairs you made seem most difficult and should not be needed on a tool costing about $1,000. So, if by some great positive fortune, you were gifted with an additional $600 or $700 dollars, and you were afforded an opportunity to do the purchase over, would you buy the Laguna and spend the additional funds on some other important matter, or buy a more expensive bandsaw fully expecting not to encounter the serious problems you had with the one you did purchase?

Thanks for your input and may you be blessed with goodness and spirited times.

Marvin :)

[Joshua Delmonico]

I had hoped that the last set of adjustment advice I provided for this bandsaw would be the last but no....there was one more waiting in the weeds for me. Hopefully now this will be the last.

The upper wheel support assembly rides in a bracket that is welded to the back of the upper wheel housing. The bracket itself has been fabricated out of large U-channel and the spring rides inside the two wings of the U-channel. There are two sets of long bolt (about four inches in length with two washers, one on each side and a nylox nut on the opposite end from the bolt head. These two bolt assemblies ride up and down in two oblong slots. The one above is closer to the wheel than the one below. As you tension or loosen the tensioning wheel, the upper wheel rides up or down on these two bolts in their respective oblong slots.

Apparently, there is a tendency on the part of the saw assemblers to over tighten the nylox nut on the bolt. The result is that the wheel hangs in certain spots and no matter how much you adjust the tensioning wheel, it will not move because the bolts will not move in their slots. I can see where it would also be possible for the assemblers not to get the bolt assemblies in proper alignment having the same result as the bolts attempt to ride up in down in their respective slots. This would cause the bolts to ride at an angle to each other as opposed to straight up and down and the result is the same. An upper wheel that snags as you try to tension or loosen it.

The cure requires that you remove the upper wheel. First bring the guide post down far enough so that the wheel will clear the magnetic strip upon removal. Removing the wheel gives you a good feel for how little force is appropriate for the nut that holds the wheel on the shaft. Suffice to say it is very little indeed and that is the way it is supposed to be.

Pull the wheel off the shaft to get access to the two bolt assemblies riding in their slots. Loosen the nylox nuts until you can clearly see at least a thread on the bolt. You have to hold the bolt head in a wrench in order to turn the nylox nut on the other end and threading from 12:00 down to 6:00 will loosen the nylox nut. I don't like to adjust on nylox. Nylox nuts are designed to be installed and left alone as much as possible. I have been known to remove nylox nuts entirely preferring to install new as opposed to adjust existing. So try to do this once right so you don't have to go back again. Now thread the nylox nut back but only as far as it takes so that the two washers are clearly not flopping around. You should not be able to see any threads on the bolts for the washers to be right. Do not even thread further by as much as a half turn on the nylox nut past the point where you can't see any threads on the bolt and the washers are straight up and down with no slop in them. Take the whole wheel assembly up and back down again such that you can see that the two bolt assemblies ride smoothly in their slots without snagging anywhere. If they are able to do this without the weight of the wheel to assist them, surely they should be fine with the wheel back in place. If the assemblies can go all the way from top to bottom and back to the top again smoothly, you can put the wheel back on again. Thread the shaft bolt counterclockwise to retighten it. Only tighten as far as what is required to remove it by hand again. Do not put a wrench of any sort on this nut. You should be done at this point. Take the whole wheel assembly up and down such that the bolts have to ride their entire travel in the oblong slots making sure that there is no snagging anywhere.

James,
Just wanted to thank you for your post. I have a 14-12 and for the first time I tried to tilt the table to a 45 and it would only go to about 30 degrees. Your fix worked great. The wheel is a little fickle sliding all the way down in the U slot. I loosened it a bit and it still sticks. It actually tends to stick when I de-tension the blade so I have to put a hand on it and push towards the table to get all the tension out. I guess I will play with it a bit more. I did find that I could reach the bolts easily without taking the wheel off. When I removed the wheel bolt the wheel was still tight on the bearing so I didn't want to mess with it too much. Thanks again!
Josh

[Charlie Jones]

Thanks James. That is a lot of information. You managed to describe it in a way that was very understandable. I have a 14-12. It has been a great saw. I was sawing 1/16 veneer last night with the 3/4 Resaw King. I had one issue with that lower guide knob. I left it in the back position where it is hard to tighten and I found the lower back ceramic disc and holder on the shop floor. It didn’t have enough impact on how the machine was working for me to notice. I may replace that knob with a allen head screw. Overall, I am glad I bought this saw.