1/8" chisel

[Prashun Patel]

I am in the market for a narrow dovetail chisel for paring the waste between tails.

I am debating between these bench chisels: Veritas PMV11 and Lie Nielsen.

I have never owned either brand in a chisel. I have only Narex chisels which are passable, but I've done dt's now that i want to step up.

Any reviews or alternate opinions?

[Dave Beauchesne]

Prashun:

I have the LNs in A2 - I really like them, but after using PM-V11 in my LV Block plane, I can't imagine them being as good.

FWIW, I like narrow(er) pins, and have a 1.5mm Japanese chisel ( brand unknown ) and a 3/16'' LN in A2 that I find indispensable. I imagine the Blue Spruce offerings would be superb as well.

Good Luck!

Dave B

[ken hatch]

Prashun,

I have a set of PMV-11 chisels, do not have the LN 750 clones.

Here is a thought on chisels for paring dovetail waste. Wider is better if you can get into the socket at an angle or sometimes a slew will work. What tends to be more important than how wide is how thick the iron is and the shape of the lands. Pictured from top to bottom are a LV PMV-11, a new Stanley 750, a Japanese thin blade paring chisel, and one of my favorites for working dovetail waste, a Union Hardware chisel. Notice how thin the Union Hardware chisel is and how the lands are also very thin.

Of these chisels, I will usually reach for one of the Japanese paring chisels, if it will fit in the socket, because of the length of the handle and how sharp the edge is but sometimes only the Union Hardware can get in without bruising the pin or tail.

The LN chisel will cost about $70 USD, a Japanese #2 White steel paring chisel from Stu less than $60 USD, the Union Hardware when you can find them probably less than $30 USD, and the PMV-11 less than $80 USD. Other than the Union Hardware all within a few bucks of each other.


http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/chiselProfile_zpsa14145ce.jpg

Hope the photo helps,

ken

[lowell holmes]

I have a 1/8" chisel that is a caning chisel. Chisels that small don't have to take a lot of abuse. I have chopped mortises with it.

I also have the LV Narex mortise chisel that does good with chopping mortises. It could be used to pare mortises.
Also I have the Veritas Detail Chisels that I use a lot. They are expensive, worth the price in my estimation.


I still have a preference for LN bench chisels, though Stanley 750's are not far behind.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I have the LNs in A2 - I really like them, but after using PM-V11 in my LV Block plane, I can't imagine them being as good.

Dave, are you saying you don't expect the Veritas V11 chisel to be as good after your experience with the Block Plane or the other way round?

Prashun:
Lee Valley also sells another Veritas product that you may want to look at.

Dovetail-Style Chisel (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=46035&cat=1,41504), 1/8" 05K04.52

304341

[David Weaver]

I would suggest that for a chisel of that size, you find a vintage inexpensive (or new inexpensive) chisel and stone or grind the sides to a profile you need.

I don't have a picture handy, but there is so little to grind on a chisel of that size (presuming it's a benefit chisel) that five minutes on a diamond hone would do what you need to do (it doesn't need to be precise, either, just out of the way) - and you only need to stone the first inch or so of the chisel.

The dovetail section chisels of that width are very thin and fragile, and it's nicer to work with something inexpensive that is full strength up from the lands you grind on it.

[Chris Hachet]

One more vote for PMV-11, that stuff seems to stay sharp forever.

However, I do love my LN chisels.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Prashun

I own several 1/8" chisels, almost all for dovetailing. These include 1/8" (vintage) Stanley 750 (which is O1), an O1 Veritas I shaped out of a 1/4" pre-production sample before they were made in this size, a recently purchased PM-V11 1/8", a Blue Spruce (which is A2), and a Koyamaichi (which is white steel). Why so many? Just filling out sets. Anyway, they all get used.

The point is, in a 1/8" chisel with zero lands, they are all much-of-a-muchness. There is so little resistance as the steel enters the wood. The white steel does hold an edge a little longer than the PM-V11, which is more durable than the A2 ... but in reality, they all last a long time. Even O1 lasts a reasonable time.

What is more important than the steel at this size is the comfort of the handle and the balance of the chisel. A Japanese chisel is tapped with a gennou, which creates precision; a Western chisel can be tapped in the same manner or be pushed.

My preference for handles for pushing are the Blue Spruce and the Veritas. I did not care for the Stanley 750 (same as LN) handles as I prefer something longer, and replaced them with handles similar to the Blue Spruce. The BS are similar in feel and balance to the Veritas.

Here are a selection ..

Koyamaichi, Stanley 750, and custom handle ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview_html_m7f638b55.jpg

Veritas (the O1 version) and Lie-Nielsen ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview_html_m658973e6.jpg

Blue Spruce and Stanley 750 ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/BSvsStanley.jpg

Hope this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[glenn bradley]

This will go the way of most LV / LN discussion I imagine ;-). My 1/8" and 3/16" chisels are both LV PM-V11 and I am very happy with them. Of course my previous 1/8" chisel was an old Marples that performed as chisels of this level do; usable, require frequent touch-ups and nothing much to get excited about. I still use my Marples for a lot of daily tasks but, with the edge retention proven in my own hands, more and more PM-V11 chisels seem to be finding their way to my tool cabinet.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have chisels from Blue Spruce, Lie Nielsen and Koyamaichi if you want to check them out and see the differences first hand.

All of my new purchases will be Koyamaichi going forward, I really like how well they keep an edge, especially in blue steel. I pared literally all day with the blue steel chisels I have, and all day the day prior and the chisel is still like a razor with no issue pushing through hard maple and cutting a super clean cut.

LN are fine, I have both O1 and A2, I prefer O1 to A2. I cut the bevels at around 30 degrees on O1 and around 35 on A2. They're good workhorses, but they are all at the sharpening stone at the end of the day, same with Blue Spruce (A2). Blue spruce are fantastic paring chisels, they have a bit of flex in the blade which is useful in many scenarios. but I've cut a 30 degree bevel on all of them to retain the edge slightly longer.

[Tom M King]

I bought a couple of blue handled Marples off ebay for a few dollars, and a few more dollars for shipping. I just ground the extra bevel on one side of each, and put a skew on the cutting edges too. You can get them plenty sharp enough, and the edge is so small anyway, that it only takes a few swipes to hone, so time between honings is a non-issue.

I use the sides of the stones, so I don't have to worry about the large faces.

[Mike Henderson]

I have the LN 1/8", the LV 1/8" and an antique (Molson Brothers?) 1/8". All are good. The LV probably keeps an edge longer than the others but I often use the antique just because it's an antique.

Mike

[lowell holmes]

Woodcraft has 1/8" Blue Handle Marples chisel in a catalog that came today. I started with Blue Handle Marples and they were decent chisels. If I needed a particular chisel and didn't want to spend a lot of money, I wouldn't hesitate to order it from Woodcraft.

Having said that, am I the only one with LV Detail Chisel set?

[Frederick Skelly]

I bought the Narex 1/8" from Highland HW. Seems to work just fine, thought it obviously wont hold an edge like PMV-11.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

At sizes this small, I've used a sharpened jewelers screwdriver. (With a fine stone nearby for lapping as needed). Unless you're using this all day long, a small chisel like this is a great place to go cheap. I really agree with Dave's suggestion.

[David Weaver]

At sizes this small, I've used a sharpened jewelers screwdriver. (With a fine stone nearby for lapping as needed). Unless you're using this all day long, a small chisel like this is a great place to go cheap. I really agree with Dave's suggestion.

Whatever is used can be short, too. Stouter behind the ground part and delicate at the ground end.

It's not really a place in chisel-dom that I'd spend much money, because the chisels will never do heavy work like a 1/2 or 3/4" chisel might.

[Derek Cohen]

What an interesting collection of ideas, which goes to show that there will always be a variety of opinions and rarely only one.

I would like to emphasise that a 1/8" chisel for dovetailing have minimal lands. This does make it easier to clean up narrow tails where it is not possible to skew the chisel into the sidewall.

For those wishing to convert a chisel to minimal lands, you can grind it to this shape. A steady hand is needed if you do not have a jig. I have done it both ways.

Here is an example of a jig (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Soyouwanttomakeadovetailchisel.html) ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Soyouwanttomakeadovetailchisel_html_35d3f454.jpg

If starting completely from scratch, HSS is a good choice of steel since you can grind it and not worry about the temper.

Ideally, you will want the 1/8" chisel to have a shorter blade since this size will flex more.

If one is choosing by steel, The Veritas PM-V11 is a good chisel as the handle is excellent as well for paring. The Koyamaichi (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KoyamaichiChisels.html) is a good choice for ultra durability, but it best used with a gennou. I am not sure how fine their lands are since mine was a custom construction by Mr Koyama ..

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

I am not sure how fine their lands are since mine was a custom construction by Mr Koyama ..


The ones sold by LV have very fine lands. They will cut you at the sides.

[Peter Evans]

An inexpensive 1/8" chisel could be made by grinding the teeth off a small worn out vintage saw file (god knows what the steel is in modern sw files). Probably only need to grind it back an inch. The shape is already there, with zero lands. Caution = the edges will be razor sharp after grinding - BE WARNED. A good idea to run a stone down the edges after grinding. Files were hardened to 62Rc or so and retain an edge quite well.

Cheers
Peter Evans

[Brian Ashton]

It has little to do with what specialised chisels you possess than your tenacious attitude to do a good job. When you consider the quality and skill of woodworkers 300 years ago you'll understand that tools are the least of your hurdles when it comes to producing work that you're satisfied with. I guess if you're determined to cut DT that are 1/8 wide then you'll need a fairly narrow chisel but you certainly won't need a LN or any other overly priced maker's product to achieve good results - all you're trying to do is clean up the joints.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks, Brian. With due respect, I'm pleased with my own tenacity and attitude in this hobby. My issue is that I simply cannot make narrower pins than 1/4" base without a smaller chisel. I want to be efficient in my choice so that I'll be able to spend more time practicing and less time buying. I've gotten great info here, and approaches I had not considered before (like Koyamaichi).

I'm not inclined to make my own tool, but appreciate the suggestion. I've practiced enough that I'm pretty sure I know what I'm looking for.

I have a hybrid approach to cutting dovetails: I bandsaw the tails, and then nibble away at the waste with the bandsaw and then finally clean up with a chisel. This method works for me. However, nibbling conservatively with a bandsaw tends to leave more meat at the bottom of the tail than a coping saw would. Hence, there is some amount of paring/clean up at the bottom of the tails that I have to do. So, edge retention is nice to have here.

[david charlesworth]

Years ago, I wanted to inlay an equilateral triangle, side 5mm.

Realizing that 59 degree edges would be useful, I made a small chisel out of a jigsaw blade.

It worked really well and could even be tapped with a small hammer.

best wishes,
David

[Brian Holcombe]

Even if you cut the waste with a coping saw you will need to pare to the line, so the need is there.

[Brian Ashton]

Thanks, Brian. With due respect, I'm pleased with my own tenacity and attitude in this hobby. My issue is that I simply cannot make narrower pins than 1/4" base without a smaller chisel. I want to be efficient in my choice so that I'll be able to spend more time practicing and less time buying. I've gotten great info here, and approaches I had not considered before (like Koyamaichi).

I'm not inclined to make my own tool, but appreciate the suggestion. I've practiced enough that I'm pretty sure I know what I'm looking for.

I have a hybrid approach to cutting dovetails: I bandsaw the tails, and then nibble away at the waste with the bandsaw and then finally clean up with a chisel. This method works for me. However, nibbling conservatively with a bandsaw tends to leave more meat at the bottom of the tail than a coping saw would. Hence, there is some amount of paring/clean up at the bottom of the tails that I have to do. So, edge retention is nice to have here.


What I was trying to say, and sorry I have a tendency to be vague, is that for the most part all you're wanting a 1/8" chisel is to slice and cut a bit of wood fibre that is left over after you cut the dovetail. You don't need a specialised, or penultimate chisel to do that. That's where I say you don't need a LN or any other high end chisel to do that. A basic 1/8 chisel that is well sharpened will do more than enough.

[Brian Holcombe]

My 1/8" Chisel is an objet d'Art, as I have no proof of it's merit as a chisel by virtue of use.

So of course it was important that it be fancy.

[Tom M King]

I had never made dovetails with pins as small as an eighth, but this thread has inspired me to. I woke up to a couple of old Marples chisels to pay for on ebay. Average price was $9.50 including shipping. I was kind of surprised that no one bid against me. I expect the CBN wheel should make quick work of the modification.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Dave, are you saying you don't expect the Veritas V11 chisel to be as good after your experience with the Block Plane or the other way round? Prashun: Lee Valley also sells another Veritas product that you may want to look at. Dovetail-Style Chisel (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=46035&cat=1,41504), 1/8" 05K04.52 <img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=304341"/>

Hilton:
You are correct - I can't imagine the LV PM-V11 chisels faring less in performance than my LN A2s.
The PM-V11 metal is very durable. Rob Lee and crew did their homework - I want to buy a couple of the PM chisels, but can't justify it at this point.

Thanks for pointing out my incomplete thoughts.

[Jim Koepke]

I keep forgetting to take a picture of my 1/8" Buck Brothers socket chisel. It works quite well for cleaning out blind dovetails.

I haven't made a lot of the skinny pin dovetails where it would be the only chisel to fit.

Looking at completed listings on ebay it seems the prices are all over the place. Looks like the socket chisels are more desirable. One tang style without a handle went for $12.45 with shipping.

One rather long socketed example went for $88.15 with shipping.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Well noted. Thanks. Now you have me thinking about going cheap here and saving up for a thicker bladed pmv11 for other tasks. Thanks.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have three chisels of the type I believe you are interested in Prashun. My chisels are 1/4" LV Koyimachi "dovetail, 3/16 Veritas Pm-V11 and a 6mm Ouchi Yama-ari-nomi (Stew's new design). With 6 or more German Shepherds and a few smaller dogs, frequently running through the house I tend to build my furniture and cabinets a little more robust. The difference in the lands and tops of these three chisels is very interesting. I tried to get a picture to post but I could not frame anything that illustrated the difference via a photo.

The LV Koyimachi has the steepest sides/lands. As a result of the design both sides and the top edge of the chisel are relatively sharp, not comfortable to grip/touch but providing the maximum clearance. The Veritas PM-V11 has some angle to the lands but much less than the Koyimaichi. The LV design produces a top that has a good size flat section that a finger can rest comfortably on. The Ouchi has lands/sides that are less radical than the Koyimachi but steeper than the PM-V11 blades. An interesting design feature on the Ouchi's is the top of the chisel, the flat section, is tapered as a result of the tapered sides I believe. The taper runs front to back. The result is the front end of the chisel blade has a comfortable place to rest a finger while the back tapers to a more narrow profile.

I think Stew, Tools From Japan, went to school on the better designs and came up with something he thought might be the best compromise. Stuart may be able to order that design from Koyimachi or Ouchi, not sure. I am very happy with the four Ouchi Yama-ari-nomi I bought. The taper to the lands on the sides of these chisels does not stand out much on the larger chisels. I'm not sure if a little more taper was used on the smaller blade sizes to retain that flat front section. Certainly it is easier to see on the chisels with smaller tops. I just checked Stuarts web site. Apparently he just put the Yama-ari oire-nomi up recently, so there are pictures available under the Ouchi Chisel section. I think Stuart was slow putting up pictures as he has experienced some issues with makers selling his designs to other vendors. Look at the smaller chisels, the various tapers and land angles stand out better.

I do not have the skill set or experience with the Ouchi Yama-are blade design to suggest that it is superior. I just thought posters might be interested in this design and how it relates to the popular Koyimachi and Veritas designs.

[Prashun Patel]

This is the reason I need something thinner. I would have liked to have made the dovetails thinner. 1/4" feels fat.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?226637-Cherry-Sap-Side-Board