Stanley No.4 Frog question

[Moriz Klonner]

So I recently got a type 15 no. 4 Stanley Plane off ebay. The plane is in very good condition, except for some surface rust. I cleaned everything, sharpened the iron and so far it works nicely.
Now I noticed that in order to have the blade parallel to the front edge of the mouth the frog has to sit a bid diagonal in the bedding. My question now is, if that is something normal for those kinds of planes, of if for example the sole has been lapped more one one side so that the frog is parallel to the sole anymore?

I hope somebody can help me and thanks for your replies,

Moriz

[Jim Koepke]

Moriz,

A belated welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't indicate your location. If you are anywhere near the Portland, Oregon area I would be happy to take a close look at your plane.

A type 15 has the old style frog, or the non-ogee shaped frog. I haven't seen this with the older frogs, but there is always a first time.

The sole could be fine. The problem could be any of four machined surfaces on the frog or two surfaces on the top side of the plane's base.

Some of my planes do not always have the edge of the blade parallel to the front of the mouth. If they can make an even shaving across the width of the blade, then it isn't something to cause any worries.

Were you unable to adjust the blade with the lateral adjustment lever?

jtk

[Moriz Klonner]

Thank you for your reply Jim!

Here are two pictures of the frog and the mouth so you can see what I mean.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wbexjuv6rou37gh/AAAhnjWD-erJzORvWaNVkwZIa?dl=0#/

As you can see, the frog is set a bit diagonal in the bed, with the left side being more forward. Now the blade is still not parallel with the leading edge of the mouth when parallel to the sole. In order to get the blade perfectly parallel I would have to tilt the frog even more, I think.

Now, I don't know if the mouth being not totally parallel with the blade is an issue. Or if the frog being installed diagonally is an issue... I just wonder whats wrong here or if this is nothing to worry about.

:confused:

The lateral adjuster works fine by the way. But isn't it just for adjusting the blade parallel to the sole, to get an even shaving?

[Jim Koepke]

My only question is the frog forward enough so the back edge of the mouth doesn't protrude further than the face of the frog.

IMO, if the plane is making good shavings a little bit of angle on the frog isn't a big problem.

jtk

[Moriz Klonner]

should the leading edge of the frog protrude the back edge of the mouth? If I do that the mouth clogs with shavings when the chipbreaker is close to the cutting edge :/

[Jim Koepke]

should the leading edge of the frog protrude the back edge of the mouth? If I do that the mouth clogs with shavings when the chipbreaker is close to the cutting edge :/

As a starting point the leading edge of the frog should be co-planer with the back edge of the mouth. Here is my description from:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer&p=1155785#post1155785


With the frog all the way back, slide a small steel rule or similar object down the face of the frog. It should go through the mouth with out catching on the lip.

It is down a ways in the thread.

If the frog is too far back, it can have an unwelcome effect on the blade's positioning. If the blade is too far forward, it can cause shavings to clog.

jtk

[Dave Parkis]

It looks like the frog is not sitting squarely on the bed. On the far right side of the picture, there is almost none of the bedding showing, but on the left there is quite a bit. I would suggest loosening the screw that holds the bracket that straddles the frog adjustment screw, repositioning the frog so it sits squarely and the tightening the screw that holds the little bracket that straddles the frog adjuster screw. Often, these brackets get bent somehow and if you use that to position the frog initially, it will skew the frog.

[Moriz Klonner]

Thanks for the tipp Dave. However, if i set the frog square to the bedding, the blade will not be parallel to the mouth when taking an even shaving. I thought an even mouth opening is somehow important, isn't it?

[Jim Koepke]

I thought an even mouth opening is somehow important, isn't it?

Not really, an even shaving is the important part of the equation.

jtk

[Moriz Klonner]

But an even tight mouth can prevent tear out to some degree...?

Anyhow... Something in this plane is skewed... it might be the sole or the frog...

Or is it so normal for old stanleys to have an uneven mouth opening?

[David B. Morris]

Judging from the many scratches on the face of the frog, it appears to have been aggressively filed at some point. Perhaps that's what caused the skew (or perhaps the filing was an earlier effort to correct it if it already existed).

[Moriz Klonner]

Well, the original scratches were round, looks like machining to me. I just went over with a diamond plate a little bit today to ensure it is reasonably flat. But most of the original machining marks are still there.

How can I check if the frog is not aligned with the sole properly? Does anybody have an idea??

[steven c newman]

I have been just laying an iron along the frog face, and out the mouth. Adjusting until the flat iron does not rock anywhere.

Now, is the opening at 90 degrees to the length of the plane's base?

Is the iron itself 90 degrees to the length of the iron?

A brass set up rod, placed along each side of the frog will get it centered on the base. A small square, held across the planes base, can tell if the frog's face is at 90 degrees to the length of the plane's base.

One other check: Clamp a straight bar across the plane, right over the frog's bed. Depth gauge to se IF one side has been "machined" lower than the other. If so, lower the "high side until the two match.

[Moriz Klonner]

Steven, thank you for those good tips! I will try to get to a friend's machine shop this week an check the frog surface with a dial indicator.

I just tried to make the mouth opening smaller, out of curiosity. Jim mentioned the the lip of the bedding before. So i tried bringing the leading edge of the frog over this lip. Now it seems that the blade is parallel to the mouth when the frog is perpendicular to it.

Could I just have made the mistake of setting the frog too far back? So that the blade does not actually sit on the frog but on the casting's lip? How much room is there to move the frog? All the way back until the screws stop the frog or is it until the casting's lip comes in your way???

If that really solved my problem I feel stupid :/ Its almost 11pm here so I will go to bed soon, but I will check once more tomorrow...

Thank you guys for your great help, and if i just set the frog too far back, then sorry for waisting your time :eek:

[Jim Koepke]

But an even tight mouth can prevent tear out to some degree...?

Knowing how to set the chip breaker/cap iron helps prevent tear out more than a tight mouth.

Google > setting the cap iron < and the first thing should be a post by David Weaver on using the cap iron to prevent tear out.

jtk

[don wilwol]

The yoke on the frog adjuster screw always has lots of play in it. Loosen it, adjust the frog and try it then. It will hold the frog from side to side if not positioned properly and cause this exact situation.