Bandsaw Upper/Lower Wheel Alignment Problem

[Dan Clark]

My new Laguna 14-12 is having blade problems. At least, I think it's the blade and not the saw. The 14-12 is a very good band saw overall except for an upper to lower wheel blade alignment problem

When the 3/4" and 1/2" Laguna blades are installed and centered on the upper wheel, the blades are aligned to the far left on the lower wheel. However, when 1/4" blades (Laguna and Lenox) are installed, they are centered on both the upper and lower wheel.

Following directions from Laguna support (excellent customer support, BTW), I adjusted the lower wheel so that the 3/4" and 1/2" blades were centered on the bottom wheel. But then the 1/4" blades were aligned to the far right on the lower wheel! :confused:

This upper/lower wheel alignment problem existed with the original rubber tires and is still there after installing new Carter urethane tires.

This Sunday, I'm going to install all of my blades on the 14-12 floor model at the local Rockler store where I bought it to see if it's the blades or the saw. Have you experienced this before? Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks,

Dan.

p.s. The Carter urethane tires are EXCELLENT. When i got the 14-12, it had a lot of vibration and noise. After installing the tires and using a dowel to stretch them, virtually all of the noise and vibration is gone! Highly recommended.

[David Falkner]

I would think you'd have to center every blade differently when you change size. At least, I've had to on all my bandsaws when I go from one size to the next.

[Dan Clark]

David,

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, you are correct - each blade size has to be centered on the top wheel. I always do that with every blade change. However that's not the issue...

The issue is that, after centering the blade on the top wheel, the wider blades are not centered on the bottom wheel. And if the bottom wheel is adjusted to center the wider blades on the bottom wheel, the narrower blades are no longer centered. That's what is perplexing.

Regards,

Dan.

[John TenEyck]

I think you should go back to ground zero. Take the upper and lower wheel covers off or open them up if that's how they work. Then take the table off so that you can put a straight edge across both wheels. You may have to adjust the tilt on the upper wheel to get it parallel with the bottom one - do so if required. If your wheels are in correct alignment the straight edge should touch the upper and lower portion of the rim on both wheels. If they are out of alignment the straight edge might touch only one edge of the second wheel when it touches both edges on the other, and in the worst case it won't touch the second wheel at all. If the straight edge doesn't touch all four edges of the wheels you will need to shim one or the other wheel until they do. Check this alignment on both sides of the arbors because the upper one could be skewed out of parallel in the horizontal direction, too, or at least it can be if the saw is a two piece design like my cast iron 14" Delta. Once they are in alignment on both sides of the arbors, what some folks call "coplaner", blades of any width should run on the center of both wheels, though the wheel tilt may have to be set differently.

John

[David Falkner]

I guess I misunderstood, Dan. I just looked at my 14 SUV but I have the 1" RK blade on it and that takes up the entire wheel and is centered on both with the teeth just hanging off the front. Like you, I have found the Laguna service to be excellent.

[Dan Clark]

I think you should go back to ground zero. Take the upper and lower wheel covers off or open them up if that's how they work. Then take the table off so that you can put a straight edge across both wheels. You may have to adjust the tilt on the upper wheel to get it parallel with the bottom one - do so if required. If your wheels are in correct alignment the straight edge should touch the upper and lower portion of the rim on both wheels. If they are out of alignment the straight edge might touch only one edge of the second wheel when it touches both edges on the other, and in the worst case it won't touch the second wheel at all. If the straight edge doesn't touch all four edges of the wheels you will need to shim one or the other wheel until they do. Check this alignment on both sides of the arbors because the upper one could be skewed out of parallel in the horizontal direction, too, or at least it can be if the saw is a two piece design like my cast iron 14" Delta. Once they are in alignment on both sides of the arbors, what some folks call "coplaner", blades of any width should run on the center of both wheels, though the wheel tilt may have to be set differently.

John
John,

Very good suggestion and makes sense. I'll have to check when I get home, but I believe that the wheels are set back from the edge of the upper and lower wheel housings. If they are, then there's no way I can get a straight edge on them.

Thanks,

Dan.

[David Ragan]

When I had my Rikon 18, and upped the tension (have a gage), on a really wide blade, it pulled the wheel out somehow, and I had to adjust the bottom wheel some. I did not call Rikon, but the forces were so great (necessarily so or not:D), the way the geometry worked, I had to loosen the bolts @ the bottom wheel, and that sure enough fixed the problem. Please note that I did NOT want to mess with those bolts, but saw I had no choice.

It's been a few years, and I can't recite the exact sequence of events, but that is what led me to research beam/column strength, and get the MM-16.

Alex Snodgrass, seems like a real pro (YouTube video) says please, please, do not mess with the wheel alignment, that 'coplanar' is more of less a myth......I don't know. He says call the manufacturer, which you did.

[Jim Finn]

I do not even look at the alignment on the lower wheel. Does it really matter?

[Dan Clark]

Gentlemen, I too do not like to mess with the lower wheel alignment. I did it only at the direction of Laguna support and to resolve this issue. There are four adjustment nuts - two vertical and two horizontal in a cross configuration. The adjustment nuts on the lower wheel act like the alignment knob on the upper wheel. The only ones I adjusted were the vertical nuts to tilt the wheel vertically. (Never mess with horizontal ones.)

One thing I have to check to see is to see if reducing the blade tension changes the alignment of the lower wheel. I.e. that the issue may not be a bad blade or the width of the blade, but is related to the amount of tension on the blade.

Thanks,

Dan.

[John TenEyck]

John,

Very good suggestion and makes sense. I'll have to check when I get home, but I believe that the wheels are set back from the edge of the upper and lower wheel housings. If they are, then there's no way I can get a straight edge on them.

Thanks,

Dan.

You can still check the alignment, it will just take a little more work. Take a piece of plywood with a nice straight edge that's long enough to cover both wheels, then cut it out as required so that it will clear where the wheel housings get in the way. Now check the alignment as I described.

I almost mentioned Alex Snodgrass's recommendation about not checking wheel alignment, but decided not to. His approach is naive. It would be fine if all saws were shipped with proper wheel alignment and stayed that way forever, but neither is true. You've read how another poster was able to resolve his problems by aligning the wheels on his saw. Had he followed Mr. Snodgrass's approach, he would still be looking in all the wrong places.

If you see this through and get the wheels running coplaner, I predict it will cut beautifully straight if you put a nice new blade on it that has been sharpened and set equally on both sides. And that's worth the effort right there. Good luck.

John

[Phil Thien]

On crowned wheels that are nearly coplanar, when the blade is centered on the top wheel, it will be front of center on the bottom wheel. The wider the blade, the more front of center it will ride on the bottom wheel.

Can you put your bottom wheel back in the original location, and take a picture of the 1/4" and 1/2" blades on the bottom wheel when they're centered on the top wheel?

[Myk Rian]

I do not even look at the alignment on the lower wheel. Does it really matter?
Ditto. I set the blade to center on the upper, and never worry where it is on the lower.

[James Nugnes]

I have also but only once messed with the nuts on the lower wheel of a bandsaw. This was/is my smaller saw, the Rikon 10" saw. The lower wheel had over time been pulled out of alignment and was tilted "up" from bottom to top. I had to adjust the nuts to bring it back into alignment. Somewhere in there I think was an instruction to loosen the horizontals 1/4 turn just to get some ability to adjust the verticals properly....then to go back that same exact 1/4" the other way on the horizontals to bring them back to tight. Please look at your instructions before doing it that way because I might not be remembering that correctly. What I do remember for certain is that with the lower wheel tilted or canted up a blade would not even stay on the wheels for more than three or maybe four turns and would have gone completely off the wheels.

So is that what is happening to the OP? Is the blade coming clean off the wheels in a few turns because the lower is canted at this point.


Also I am struggling with why the blade width would have an impact. If the lower wheel was canted and that was the issue, wouldn't the blade come off the wheels in just a few turns regardless of the width?

Slightly off topic....I have been toying with the idea of buying and installing the Carter tires...not because I see the Laguna 14 12 tires as inherently flawed but because so many report eliminating so much noise and vibration making just that change. Was it much of a process. I think I read somewhere that the wheels absolutely most come off the saw to do it. Is that correct?

[John TenEyck]

Blade alignment can change as the width changes because the tension is different. It takes 2X as much force to tension a 1/2" blade as a 1/4" one. That change in force can (indeed, does) cause the frame to bend. How much it bends depends upon how robust the saw is; with my 14" CI Delta it will deflect a lot if you try to add more force than about the standard 1/2" setting with a high tension Iturra spring. If you add more tension than that you can move the upper blade guides out of alignment with the lower. None of that causes the blade to go out of alignment with the wheels, however, unless the wheels don't lie in the same plane, or very close to it. If they aren't coplaner, and especially if they are off in both axes, the alignment gets worse the higher the spring tension. Whether that causes the blade to walk off the wheels depends upon how far out of alignment they are, but it sure won't track or cut true in any case.

Ever ride a bicycle with the wheels out of alignment?

John

[Dan Clark]

You can still check the alignment, it will just take a little more work. Take a piece of plywood with a nice straight edge that's long enough to cover both wheels, then cut it out as required so that it will clear where the wheel housings get in the way. Now check the alignment as I described.

I almost mentioned Alex Snodgrass's recommendation about not checking wheel alignment, but decided not to. His approach is naive. It would be fine if all saws were shipped with proper wheel alignment and stayed that way forever, but neither is true. You've read how another poster was able to resolve his problems by aligning the wheels on his saw. Had he followed Mr. Snodgrass's approach, he would still be looking in all the wrong places.

If you see this through and get the wheels running coplaner, I predict it will cut beautifully straight if you put a nice new blade on it that has been sharpened and set equally on both sides. And that's worth the effort right there. Good luck.

John
John,

The plywood straight edge won't work. That said, it might work if I chopped out part of the center portions. I'll give that a try this weekend.

Thanks,

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

On crowned wheels that are nearly coplanar, when the blade is centered on the top wheel, it will be front of center on the bottom wheel. The wider the blade, the more front of center it will ride on the bottom wheel.

Can you put your bottom wheel back in the original location, and take a picture of the 1/4" and 1/2" blades on the bottom wheel when they're centered on the top wheel?
Phil,

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that the condition I'm seeing is normal? This weekend, I'll post some detailed pics of the 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 inch blades.

Thanks,

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

Ditto. I set the blade to center on the upper, and never worry where it is on the lower.
Myk,

Interesting point. If this is normal, I won't worry about it. OTOH, it's not clear if this is normal.

Thanks,

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

Blade alignment can change as the width changes because the tension is different. It takes 2X as much force to tension a 1/2" blade as a 1/4" one. That change in force can (indeed, does) cause the frame to bend. How much it bends depends upon how robust the saw is; with my 14" CI Delta it will deflect a lot if you try to add more force than about the standard 1/2" setting with a high tension Iturra spring. If you add more tension than that you can move the upper blade guides out of alignment with the lower. None of that causes the blade to go out of alignment with the wheels, however, unless the wheels don't lie in the same plane, or very close to it. If they aren't coplaner, and especially if they are off in both axes, the alignment gets worse the higher the spring tension. Whether that causes the blade to walk off the wheels depends upon how far out of alignment they are, but it sure won't track or cut true in any case.

Ever ride a bicycle with the wheels out of alignment?

John
John,

The 1412 is pretty robust. With the 3/4" blade on the saw, a straight edge held vertically against the side of the saw showed no deflection when the saw was tensioned. In any case, tension does not make any difference. With the 3/4" blade detensioned down to the 1/4" range, the 3/4" blade still shifted to the left.

Regards,

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

Last Sunday, I stopped by Rockler Seattle and tested my blades on the floor model. The blades acted the same way on both saws. This kind of implies that it's the blades. OTOH, I have difficulty believing that BOTH of the 1/2" and 3/4" blades are defective.

At this point, I wonder if it's the blades. To test this and since I wanted another 1/2" blade anyway, I bought a LENOX DIEMASTER 2 blade. We'll see if there is any difference from my Laguna 1/2" blade.

Regards,

Dan.

[Phil Thien]

Phil,

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that the condition I'm seeing is normal? This weekend, I'll post some detailed pics of the 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 inch blades.

Thanks,

Dan.

Hard to tell w/o seeing where the blade is landing on that bottom wheel. But yeah, the wider the blade, the closer to the front rim it will run on the lower wheel when centered on the top wheel.

[John TenEyck]

Dan, is the blade perpendicular to the table in both planes when it's fully tensioned? If it's not when checked along the back of the blade then the wheels aren't in proper alignment. If it's not when checked along the side of the blade, then the frame is deflecting so much that the upper wheel is being pulled to the right. The saw may be robust, but it WILL deflect and, at some point, it will become a problem. A 3/4" blade may be fine on the saw, I don't know, but there will be an upper limit.

John

[Edward Oleen]

Gentlemen: I hate to be a spoil-sport, but in this, and all difficult BS issues, I'd be guided by Louis Iturra. Get a copy of his catalog and read it. If you can, communicate with him.

[John Leake]

I would suggest taking a piece of aluminium 1x2x1/4" long enough to cover top and bottom wheels and then some. Then take some scrap aluminium or some very straight wood and make parallels to contact the wheel rims top and bottom, spacing out the vertical so it clears the saw structure, etc. Then place that "gauge" on the bandsaw being very careful to gently position it gently on the wheel rims. If the saw is properly aligned all four surfaces will make contact. If not properly aligned then your gauge will only contact 2 or three places. Do this will a blade installed and tensioned properly. If the saw needs alignment, then carefully examine the saw to determine what can be done to correct the alignment.

My Delta 14" saw I aligned that way after getting the height block installed. If the wheels are not parallel, and no mounting arrangement can correct it, then your saw either needs to be adjusted or modified to make them parallel. With my delta I would use very thin metal shim stock, for a welded up saw another approach will be required. For my delta, 1/2" is the maximum I attempt to run, in part due to the tension required, the other is the guide blocks are stretched to the limit for a larger blade.

[Chris Parks]

I would suggest taking a piece of aluminium 1x2x1/4" long enough to cover top and bottom wheels and then some. Then take some scrap aluminium or some very straight wood and make parallels to contact the wheel rims top and bottom, spacing out the vertical so it clears the saw structure, etc. Then place that "gauge" on the bandsaw being very careful to gently position it gently on the wheel rims. If the saw is properly aligned all four surfaces will make contact. If not properly aligned then your gauge will only contact 2 or three places. Do this will a blade installed and tensioned properly. If the saw needs alignment, then carefully examine the saw to determine what can be done to correct the alignment.

My Delta 14" saw I aligned that way after getting the height block installed. If the wheels are not parallel, and no mounting arrangement can correct it, then your saw either needs to be adjusted or modified to make them parallel. With my delta I would use very thin metal shim stock, for a welded up saw another approach will be required. For my delta, 1/2" is the maximum I attempt to run, in part due to the tension required, the other is the guide blocks are stretched to the limit for a larger blade.

As soon as the saw frame is subject to tension all that aligning is lost especially if the blade is the maximum the saw can use. Perhaps it would be better to tension the saw, check the alignment, release the tension and note the difference. After that any change needed to bring the tensioned saw into alignment can be made if needed. What you propose is like wheel aligning a car with no weight on the front wheels.

[Phil Thien]

Before the OP makes any gauges or makes any more adjustments, I'd sure like to see where those blades on running on the bottom wheel when centered on the top.

[John TenEyck]

As soon as the saw frame is subject to tension all that aligning is lost especially if the blade is the maximum the saw can use. Perhaps it would be better to tension the saw, check the alignment, release the tension and note the difference. After that any change needed to bring the tensioned saw into alignment can be made if needed. What you propose is like wheel aligning a car with no weight on the front wheels.

Not in my experience. If the wheels are aligned with no tension, they are aligned when tension is applied, at least with my saw. The only thing that changes is the upper wheel gets pulled to the right under tension as the frame deflects. That does not effect how the blade sits on the wheels, assuming the wheels were coplaner to start with, but it does effect how the blade runs in the upper and lower guides. If the wheels were not coplaner to start with then you may very well be right. That would tell me to go back and align the wheels properly to begin with.

To the OP, you've heard several ways to check wheel alignment - all involve getting a straight edge on the four wheel rim surfaces. A piece of plywood cut out where it needs to be to fit over wheel covers or frame is the simplest. You can have an answer in 30 minutes.

John

[glenn bradley]

Last Sunday, I stopped by Rockler Seattle and tested my blades on the floor model. The blades acted the same way on both saws. This kind of implies that it's the blades. OTOH, I have difficulty believing that BOTH of the 1/2" and 3/4" blades are defective.

Hard to believe or not, this sounds pretty conclusive. If the blades misbehave on another saw, it's not your saw.

[John TenEyck]

Hard to believe or not, this sounds pretty conclusive. If the blades misbehave on another saw, it's not your saw.

If that were true wouldn't they not lay flat on a bench, etc? Seems like such a simple check.

John

[Phil Thien]

Hard to believe or not, this sounds pretty conclusive. If the blades misbehave on another saw, it's not your saw.

While I agree with where you're going with this I'll go one step further: I'm not sure there is a problem with the saw, or the blades.

My experience is that people center a blade on the top wheel and expect it to be centered on the bottom, as well. But, it doesn't work like that.

I've participated in at least ten threads here and elsewhere about just this issue.

[Dan Clark]

Overall, this issue is resolved. At first, I adjusted lower wheel so that the 3/4" blade was centered on both wheels. That worked fine, but then the 1/2" and smaller blades were misaligned in the opposite direction. Worse, the 1/8" blade would not stay on the wheels at all.

Then I adjusted the lower wheel so that the 1/2" blade was centered on both wheels. This resulted on the 3/4" blade being misaligned but not too bad. And the 1/4 and 1/8" blade was misaligned somewhat in the opposite direction, but again, it wasn't too bad. And the 1/8" blade stayed on the wheels. Overall, it's a good balance.

There was one other issue with the upper wheel - the bearing was making noise. Laguna sent me a brand new wheel and now it's extremely quiet.

With the issues resolved, the 14-12 is an excellent saw, IMO. It's smooth, quiet, powerful, and has lots of good features - including the ability to resaw 13" out of the box.

Regards,

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

While I agree with where you're going with this I'll go one step further: I'm not sure there is a problem with the saw, or the blades.

My experience is that people center a blade on the top wheel and expect it to be centered on the bottom, as well. But, it doesn't work like that.

I've participated in at least ten threads here and elsewhere about just this issue.

Phil,

Thanks for the feedback. Apparently, that's a characteristic of this saw. Given that it's now working fine except for this issue, I can live with it.

Regards,

Dan.

[Phil Thien]

Phil,

Thanks for the feedback. Apparently, that's a characteristic of this saw. Given that it's now working fine except for this issue, I can live with it.

Regards,

Dan.

It is a characteristic of any saw with crowned wheels running steel bands. It is just how it works.

Think of it like this:

(1) To apply tension, the distance around the two wheels has to be greater than the length of the blade. You can't start to put any force (tension) on the blade until you've met that requirement.

(2) If the blade is shorter than the distance around the two wheels, there is no way for the blade to ride perfectly centered on both wheels.

(3) If it can't ride perfectly centered on both wheels, the best you can expect is for it to ride perfectly centered on one of the wheels, and front of center on the other.

(4) Seeing as the camber of the top wheel is typically used for adjustment, that will be the wheel where the band rides centered.

(5) And so now we see the band will always ride front of center on the bottom wheel.

The degree to which it will ride front of center on the bottom wheel depends on how much tension one is applying, the welding of the band (no matter what, all bands will be minutely longer front or back due to the way they are manufactured), and where the force is being applied on the wheels (the bands don't stretch in a perfectly even manner, due to the fact that they are not in contact with the tire across their entire width).

So there is nothing peculiar about your saw.

Hope that helps.

[glenn bradley]

Once they are in alignment on both sides of the arbors, what some folks call "coplaner", blades of any width should run on the center of both wheels, though the wheel tilt may have to be set differently.

Totally agree with this. When I took the time to do this my larger machine smoothed out so much I can hardly tell it is running. I didn't even know it wasn't running smooth until I went coplaner and this is not what I was aligning the saw for. Like you I wanted better tracking.

Like John, I now change blades widths with impunity. The only thing I adjust is tension and the guides to conform to the blade width/weight. Having learned from this experience, the same conditions now hold true for my 17" machine, dad's 17" machine, dad's 14" machine and even my little 1970's 10" machine.