North American vs Euro TS Fences and Safety

[Peter Aeschliman]

So, my understanding is that europeans like to pull their aluminum extruded fences forward (toward the operator), such that the end of the fence is only just past the gullets of the cutting end of the blade.

Like this:

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h255/peteraeschliman/Untitled-1.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/peteraeschliman/media/Untitled-1.jpg.html)

My understanding is that this dramatically reduces the possibility of kickback because there is no "pinch zone" toward the back of the blade.

To those of you who have euro saws, how "in control" of the workpiece do you feel as you approach the end of the cut when your fence is in this position? Seems to me you only have an inch max of contact with the fence toward the end of the cut. How is this accurate or safe? It seems to me like the workpiece could teeter on the fence as you finish the cut. Doesn't this cause a taper at the end of the workpiece?

My sawstop PCS has a riving knife, etc. But I'm considering swapping the fence out for a verysupercooltools fence and cutting the aluminum extrusion down so that it is no longer than the front gullet of my 10" blade's when at a reasonably low height setting... that is if it is safer and more accurate. But I'm stuck on this point...

Is there any case when you would want more fence length after the cut?

Note, I already have an excalibur sliding table for safe cross-cuts.

[David Kumm]

Take a look at Jack Forsberg's Wadkin PK videos to see a short fence in action. I added a similar extrusion on my Whitney303787303788 The idea used on British saws was to keep the fence back aligned with the gullets on the front of the blade. The fence was curved to the bottom to mimic the blade. Works pretty well when you get used to the idea. I almost always move the fence forward when ripping long material. When ripping short pieces using the Grrippers seen in the pic ( several so i don't need to adjust them ) I've found that the fence in the traditional position works better for me as the design of the Grriper works best when you can push both sides of the cut against the fence until beyond the blade. Sliders all use the adjustable fence but mainly as a guide when crosscutting. Euro sliders are meant to rip from the sliding table side so the fence is only to set the position of the stock. Dave

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Euro sliders are meant to rip from the sliding table side so the fence is only to set the position of the stock. Dave

That's how I use mine. Because no one told me not to, I've ripped without the slider with the fence back, and it works. It can feel a little wobbly towards the end of the cut if the board is long. Great for slider work, but for free hand I prefer the fence way past the blade like normal American saws. One of the silly little reasons I like it pulled back for the slider work, is that it makes cutoffs easy to "park" when ripping multiples. No reaching way over the blade to grab one about to fall off the table, they parallel Park on their own usually.

[ian maybury]

These are just personal impressions on issues on i've run into since starting to use an 8ft Hammer slider, and prior to that a Robland combo. - the machines we get here (ireland) are essentially to EU standards and not in the US format - although there is some older US style stuff about.

This piece by Bob Lang summarises the differences in approach pretty nicely - although as above the UK regs are to my mind more Euro than British in origin: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/table-saw-safety-why-the-british-think-were-crazy

There's no easy answers i think. A short set fence avoids work being nipped between the upwards moving rear teeth and the fence - which is where the most frequent risk of kickback arises. Against that it for sure can leave work a little unsupported at times - but the resulting wobble while not good for the work is likely to be against the downwards moving teeth and hence is unlikely to throw it. Larger Euro saws (but not many smaller/cheaper more DIY ones - see the pic in Bob's piece - the small short fences on budget saws can be a PIA as they are usually flimsy as hell too) are fitted with a fence long enough to be extended well past the blade when needed http://www.ukhammer.co.uk/products_features.php?parent=9e5e5cc98dc03df70393&xat_code=cac192c1b9ae54899936&region=gb-en - so there is possibly a tacit admission of some sort in there that it's required for some cuts.

Ripping off a long fence has the advantage that it's a simple one step set up - and due to the layout it delivers a parallel cut/constant width piece every time even if the fence is very slightly misaligned. It seems like the high risk levels arise with misaligned fences, flexible fences/mountings and/or unthinking work practices.

Ripping off a slider requires a lot more set up, and the work has to be set accurately parallel to the line of travel of the slider using whatever means of measurement/accessory (parallel bars, stop rules or whatever) if a constant width piece is to be delivered. Against that it's normally a totally relaxed and very safe procedure - with the advantage that it'll produce a straight cut determined by the line of travel of the slider. There's a learning curve too - so all in all the extra safety has a price tag attached.

It seems like there's issues to be worked around when ripping very narrow pieces on either set up - the fence/blade gap when ripping off the fence, and issues of holding work down and dealing with the otherwise minor height difference between the slider and the table, and the strip of table between the slider and the blade in the latter case.

Riving knives seem to work well and are cost effective, but riving knife mounted top guards while great most of the time can end up fouling cross cut or rip fences on certain close to fence cuts depending on set up and probably generate temptation to remove them. They don't much like heavy dust hoses etc either. Fancier industrial quality saws are generally fitted with overhead mounted top guards, e.g. http://www.ukfelder.co.uk/gb-en/products/9e5e5cc98dc03df70393/product_detail/0851cb4bdf033c6b8abcecc495aae531/9e5e5cc98dc03df70393 - the Suva top guard shown in the UK HSE link from Bob's piece is also of this type.

Slotting with a dado or similar is the classic scenario where there's little option but to remove a riving knife and associated knife mounted top guard - but not an overhead mounted guard. Euro saws used for slotting/dado cutting must have a proper spindle prep (long enough arbour, non loosening when braking), and also be equipped with a brake stopping the spindle (with a potentially heavy cutter) within 10sec - and its not officially acceptable to remove the top guard. Despite the common perception in the UK dado and slotting cutters seem of themselves to be perfectly acceptable there and in Europe - it's just that the saw has to be appropriately set up so that the secondary requirements are met when the cutter is fitted...

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I have a Euro saw, if you remember the Delta Unifence, it was of this design also.

Having the fence stop at the blade gullet does reduce the risk of binding, and it increases the length of fence before the cut point for improved support.

Having it end just after the cut may seem weird however it does work well.

The Euro fences also have a low position for ripping narrow strips or bevels.

Once the wood is cut, the fence can only introduce problems after that, it certainly isn't going to put wood back into a poor cut.

For sheet goods I put the fence partway, once again to maximise my infeed support and guidance.

I wouldn't cut the fence, it looks like the one you're considering provides the infinite adjustabily and three positions of the Euro style fence..............Rod.

[Kevin Jenness]

I use a sliding table saw with a euro fence every day at work. For work that can be safely held on the sliding carriage for ripping or crosscutting, the fence stops before the blade, and the workpiece or offcut to the blade's right drops free. Since it can't get trapped between fence and blade, there is no risk of kickback. For pieces that are too narrow to ride on the slider, I put the fence forward either halfway along the blade, or well past it. For rough ripping lumber that may bow or pinch in the cut, the fence is in the intermediate position (or, more often, I use the bandsaw). For better control of sheet goods or lumber that is close to final dimension, the fence usually extends past the blade. For example, ripping a sheet of plywood into 12" rips, the first cut would be a "dust cut" to straighten the factory edge. The next 3 cuts the fence is pulled back and acts as a gauge for the slider. The fourth piece is ripped as on a cabinet saw, with the fence extended past the blade. I find that for large pieces in this situation having the fence extended past the blade gives better control and keeps the piece from twisting at the end of the cut, particularly as I am typically leaning over the carriage and find it harder to get my force in line with the fence than if I were using a cabinet saw with my position farther to the right. For very wide pieces I may move around to the right side of the carriage in order to more easily push in line with the fence (although in principle it is safer to stay to the left of the carriage.).

Ripping with the slider and the fence requires the fence to be accurately aligned with the slider travel (and the slider with the blade) to get good results. Accurate ripping on the slider without the fence, as Ian says, requires careful setup, whether measuring off the table edge or using a parallel ripping guide. We used to have a Griggio with one of those parallel guide, but it was fussy to get it and the crosscut stop on the fence coordinated- not very efficient for normal use in a busy shop.

The riving knife is perhaps the most important safety feature in using a slider, other than the one on your shoulders. The overhead guard stays on except for very narrow cuts, but it is mostly a sawdust deflector and a reminder not to stick your fingers in there.

In my home shop, I replaced my cabinet saw with a full scale slider, and would never go back, but if I had room I would still have a cabinet saw for ripping lumber- leaning over the slider to rip narrow pieces against the fence is a little awkward. Ideally the cabinet saw would have a euro fence, but you can clamp an auxiliary fence to the main one to mimic the functions of the Euro fence.

[David Kumm]

Short vs long fence on a tradition saw is a debate a lot like bandsaw tensioning. huge camps on both sides. Europeans liked the short fence design, US used a longer fence. If you want to change your pcs, I would attach an extrusion that you can loosen and move forward and back. don't get committed to just a short fence if you don't like the long one 100% of the time. It's fairly easy to drill and tap a bar to attach to the fence for the extrusion to fit. My extrusion is made to fit a unifence and is available online for about $90. Dave

[Erik Loza]

+1 for Dave's comments ^^^^^

A lot of guys (in my experience...) who are either in the research phase or just got their machines still try to treat it like a cabinet saw, with the whole "I'm going to do it all with the rip fence" mindset. It really depends on what you do with the machine. If you bought the slider for the right reasons (squaring sheet goods), then you can pull the rip fence extrusion back like that photo. In fact, we even have a shorty rip fence extrusion, that is half-length, that lives on the machine a good amount of the time.

The issue I see guys run into is trying to set up their machines so that the rip fence and slide somehow will work in conjuction with each other, which is recipe for huge headaches. The slider needs to be treated as two different machines: The slider/crosscut fence side and and then the rip fence side, each calibrated to the sawblade rather than each other. Hope this makes sense.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Peter Aeschliman]

Thanks all. I think I get it. How about a compromise, where the end of the fence is aligned to the top dead center of the blade? Or is that not much different than a long fence?

[David Kumm]

Peter, since you are running a traditional saw rather than a slider, whether the fence ends just behind the gullets or half way, it is still a short fence. Just a matter of how far your hand extends beyond the teeth before shifting the fence side of the cut away from the blade. if your fence is set correctly parallel to the blade, you use a riving knife, and the stock is kiln dried, the long fence works just fine. Construction lumber and pressure treated benefit from a short fence or better yet, the bandsaw. Dave

[Peter Aeschliman]

Peter, since you are running a traditional saw rather than a slider, whether the fence ends just behind the gullets or half way, it is still a short fence. Just a matter of how far your hand extends beyond the teeth before shifting the fence side of the cut away from the blade. if your fence is set correctly parallel to the blade, you use a riving knife, and the stock is kiln dried, the long fence works just fine. Construction lumber and pressure treated benefit from a short fence or better yet, the bandsaw. Dave

Got it. In other words, I'm over-thinking it/ if it ain't broke, don't fix it, etc. :)

Good feedback. I definitely never do the "risker" rip cuts with un-milled, properly dried stock. I did have one occasion where the kerf in a kiln-dried, perfectly square workpiece closed up on my riving knife (thank god for riving knives) during a rip cut. Apparently the workpiece had lots of tension in it! I had to shut the saw down with my left knee, lower the blade, and pull pretty hard to unseat it from my riving knife.

So there are rare cases where I do worry about kickback even when I've done everything else right. But the riving knife saved me, so maybe that's all I need!

[David Kumm]

Peter, also keep in mind the short fence design was generally used on bigger blades than your 10". My short fence saws run 14-18" blades. Whole different deal running a board entirely past an 18" blade. Takes a long reach and prayer is usually involved. Dave

[Grant Wilkinson]

I follow David's approach. I didn't cut my long fence. I merely attached a "short fence" to it. The short fence ends just beyond the gullet on the blade. It does seem a little strange at first as you lose the support for the piece just behind the front of the blade. However, since the blade is no longer cutting at that point, there is no need for that support.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Peter, also keep in mind the short fence design was generally used on bigger blades than your 10". My short fence saws run 14-18" blades. Whole different deal running a board entirely past an 18" blade. Takes a long reach and prayer is usually involved. Dave

Yeah, that sounds pretty terrifying. :)


I follow David's approach. I didn't cut my long fence. I merely attached a "short fence" to it. The short fence ends just beyond the gullet on the blade. It does seem a little strange at first as you lose the support for the piece just behind the front of the blade. However, since the blade is no longer cutting at that point, there is no need for that support.

The thing I still don't get- when you only have a few more inches left in your cut, it really doesn't seem like the workpiece would be adequately supported because it only has a few inches of contact on the fence. If your workpiece rotates to the right a little during those last few inches, you're going to get a taper at the end of your workpiece. Based on Ian's post above, it sounds to me like you sacrifice some accuracy in favor of safety, and thus you may have to cut the last few inches of the workpiece off after your rip cut, but you probably won't have any kickback... pick your poison so to speak.

Does that match your experience?

[mreza Salav]

A unifence has the same features, you can move it forward or backward, and can have a tall/short fence (when ripping thin strips). I have a ICS sawstop (with their fence) and a (temporary) Delta saw with unifence (for my job site). I like the idea of tall/short unifence but I haven't felt comfortable enough with moving the fence forward; so I still use it in full table depth position.

[ian maybury]

I'm no expert Peter/most of my experience is with man made boards and am interested to hear other views. I'm another however that wouldn't want to move away from using a slider.

I'd say the risk of the rear of a workpiece getting unintentionally skimmed arises mostly from poor technique - the actual fence end position relative to the blade, and the location and direction of the push/type of pusher need to be reasonably correct. If the fence is pulled back much past the centreline of the blade though then some care is in my limited experience needed (while not overdoing the pressure) to keep the rear end of the workpiece snug against the fence - because there's some possibility of it trying to hang a right around the end of the fence with the result that the LHS/rear end may tend to push into the side of the teeth on the leading/cutting edge of the blade. Which isn't necessarily a significant risk as the teeth are cutting down, but it creates some potential to skim the end of the edge of the workpiece. (especially on a 10in blade which is where i've seen it happen)

Get it right and there's no problem, and the workpiece even eases a little away from the blade as it clears the fence.

My K3 Hammer is actually fitted with an Incra TS LS (full length) rip fence. I have however a shorter DIY sub fence made from a length of anodised heavy aluminium angle that mounts off the T slots in it. (i couldn't find a suitable section to pull off the alternate low/high fence option as the Unifence though) This as the others functions as a short/low fence when required - it can be very useful to clear the riving knife mounted top guard.

[Dennis Aspö]

I've been told the long style fence position still finds use in euro saws for cutting panels and the like and it provides a nice support all the way doing that. The short style is for cutting natural wood that can have twists and tension in it. I have a euro sliding saw but the fence is pretty weird, not full length, but not a short euro style either. It's an old saw though.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7582/16053338918_82ed1acbaa_c.jpg

[Chris Parks]

Yeah, that sounds pretty terrifying. :)



The thing I still don't get- when you only have a few more inches left in your cut, it really doesn't seem like the workpiece would be adequately supported because it only has a few inches of contact on the fence.

Once the cut is substantially started the saw blade becomes the guide not the fence. How many times have you seen a misaligned fence cause burning because the operator insisted that the timber being cut must lay against the fence? if that operator had allowed the timber to be guided by the blade the burning would not have happened.

[Bill Space]

Hi,

Many years ago I bought a Delta Unifence for use with my craftsman contractors saw. I used it in the normal American fashion with great success and never thought about doing it differently, until reading some posts here about how the Europeans use a short fence.

I swung the Unifence over to my new Grizzly cabinet saw when I bought it about two years ago. The grizzly has a riving knife. When ripping now I pull my Unifence back so that the end is about even with the beginning of the blade. I like the feeling when ripping this way. I have not noticed any negatives about it. As mentioned by Chris, I think the blade and riving knife guide the workpiece as it is being ripped and moves past the end of the fence.

I have not found the desire or need to return to the American way of positioning the fense for the most part. I do have a couple jigs that I used for ripping some narrow tapered pieces, where I need the fence set a American style, but other than that I keep it in the European position for ripping and feel quite comfortable doing so.

Bill

[Jim Becker]

I've been told the long style fence position still finds use in euro saws for cutting panels and the like and it provides a nice support all the way doing that. The short style is for cutting natural wood that can have twists and tension in it. I have a euro sliding saw but the fence is pretty weird, not full length, but not a short euro style either. It's an old saw though.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7582/16053338918_82ed1acbaa_c.jpg

Dennis, the saw you show in the photo is a cabinet saw with a sliding table add on, primarily for cross-cutting...it's very different than a Euro format slider. On the latter, the edge of the wagon (the sliding part) is nearly right up to the blade. When you are using the sliding table, the principles of a short fence for material positioning before the cut can apply as long as your material is controlled by your sliding table and fence. When ripping, it's best to have a full length fence that's adjusted to perfectly parallel to the blade or slightly away from the back of the blade for maximum safety. You could easily make a cap for your current fence that would extend its reach beyond the blade for ripping.

[Dennis Aspö]

I've been considering a cap for my fence, but actually to shorten it so it'd be more like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7QXIN2X8-w

I've ripped 4 meter long boards using this setup (plus extra infeed and outfeed supports) and it's worked quite well for me. Some of the professionals I've talked to with "proper" saws dedicated ripping operations also advocate setting the blade as high as possible, contrary to the common american and uk opinion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luS0q1GmjxM

[Justin Ludwig]

I replaced the UHMW fence on my saw with a taller piece of laminated MDF. I drilled 4 holes in that fence so I can screw a short "rip" fence piece onto it for when I'm dealing with solid lumber. Works great, just don't forget to add the 3/4" thickness (or whatever thickness of material you use) for the added fence. I've seen videos of folks building a similar set up but with cam knobs or t-nuts. I just screw/unscrew mine.

[David Kumm]

Dennis, the video demonstrates the English way to rip. High blade but with a nose guard on the crown. Very important. The high blade pushes the stock down and reduces the tendency of the long board to ride up and over the blade. Robinsons are rare but made some great machines. I have a Robinson slider that will be a 2015 project. Dave303894

Disregard other pic.

[David Nelson1]

My craftsman came with a short aluminum extrusion that T slotted to the fence. Owners manual didn't really discuss its use and of course I had no clue, first saw I ever owned or used so now I know what its for.

[Curt Harms]

I follow David's approach. I didn't cut my long fence. I merely attached a "short fence" to it. The short fence ends just beyond the gullet on the blade. It does seem a little strange at first as you lose the support for the piece just behind the front of the blade. However, since the blade is no longer cutting at that point, there is no need for that support.

I think that using Grant's idea of an attached 'short fence' to try ending the fence at different places on the blade has merit. I have a fence with a T slot in the face. I jointed and planed a poplar piece exactly 1" thick and as high as the fence. That way the tape on the fence is sorta useful, just offset 1". I counter bored 2 holes with screws and T nuts so I can fasten the poplar subfence anywhere along the primary fence. It also has a cutout to bury a portion of a dado stack if I wish. Make something like that and experiment to see what feels comfortable to you.

[ian maybury]

Short rip fences on dedicated rip saws seem to be a pretty long standing tradition, this is a Wadkin: http://www.usedwoodworkingmachines.co.uk/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=29 The sort of kick back a saw of this build and weight could produce doesn't bear thinking about - no wonder they recognised there was an issue.

The term 'rip' presumably means cutting natural wood in the direction of the grain - which brings the risk of cuts springing in whatever direction as stress is released.

Ply or other man made boards are that much more stable, and so kick back is presumably much less of a risk with that sort of work. (although some modern plywood i've seen was as a result of manufacturing defects/veneer overlaps and the like pretty inclined to spring/bend when cut free) Which nevertheless is presumably why it's deemed more acceptable if not OK (?) to use a long fence on large panel cutting (but give me a slider instead any day) - the scenario where a short overlap rip fence has some potential to end up skimming the last part of the cut as a result of the by this stage relatively unsupported work skewing a bit towards the end of the cut.

But then ripping I guess isn't necessarily intended to be a precision/high surface finish activity either - in at least traditional environments the presumption would presumably be that the stock would subsequently be planed - and would anyway be cut over length. We on the other hand may as a result of not being fully equipped end up trying to produce glue ready joints off the saw.

An associated issue for the average woodworker may be that we tend to use a single saw to do all our machining, and also that many are very much built down to a price. So it's possible in a market where some saws are supplied with 'safe' short fences to end up trying to cut large panels on a lightweight budget saw with a less than precisely set up (and often rather flexible) short rip type fence - which can't be ideal.

I guess as before that the risk of problems while ripping on a traditional long fence is significantly reduced by accurate set up, good rigid fences and good technique - but that there still has to be a residual risk that a short/adjustable fence can greatly help reduce. The set up in the Steve Maskery video has to be a decent way of achieving this on a more traditional long fence saw.

I guess too there's a challenge/learning task implicit in the situation for all of us - we need to learn the ins and outs of the different sorts of cuts to put ourselves in a position to recogise when there's more risk about, and when as a result to use particular set ups. It's interesting that for example that sliders are still fitted with rip fences - there has to be scope for a manual setting out set ups for different cuts types....

PS for most of us the issue in the end seems to be the above - there's such a wealth of knowledge and set ups involved in using whichever saw type we're used to that changing over requires a lot of re-learning of methods.

[Grant Wilkinson]

Peter: It has not been my experience that I get any tapering of the last few inches of the cut. It does take a bit of getting used to, but when you do, it's great to simply push the piece that was against the fence to the right a bit and not be concerned about any pinching between a cutting blade and the fence.

Curt: I did exactly as you did. My fence has a T slot on the face. I cut a piece of 1" MDF the height of my fence, put 2 countersunk holes in it and used square headed bolts to hold it to the fence. I can slide it anywhere along the fence I like. I have a long one attached the same way for rabbets. It is full length.

[Dennis Aspö]

Isn't it adequate to set the fence so it stops in the middle of the blade, then you get a few inches of support at least for the last part, and the back portion of the blade is free.

[Kevin Jenness]

"Once the cut is substantially started the saw blade becomes the guide not the fence."

Ok, let's try this out. Start ripping a board as usual with any fence you like. Stop the saw and keep the board in position. Move the fence away from the board. Restart the saw and finish the cut. Who wants to go first?

[ian maybury]

Guess the clearance that results from the width of the kerf relative to the plate not to mention that carbide teeth cut off the side too means that the saw blade does not necessarily to any real degree guide the work. Cove cutting too strongly suggests otherwise: http://www.rockler.com/cove-cutting-table-saw-jig

[Joe Calhoon]

Concerning the proper use of the sliding two position Euro fence.
I spent a few days at the Martin factory in Germany last year training on the safety, proper use, adjustments and maintenance of the machines.

When using this type fence in a conventional way (not with the sliding table) the fence should start at blade center for narrow rips. As boards get wider and the fence moves farther away from the blade the end of the fence should be about 30 degrees from center of blade. The picture shows a 30-degree angle being used just to give the idea. In practice just eyeball it. For solid wood the advantage of using the fence this way is less chance of kickback and easier on the blade.

For man-made sheet goods the fence should be used extended far past the blade. (Again, not with the sliding table)

The use of the fence with the sliding table opens up many more possibilities with the fence positioned behind the blade for many cuts. We have our slider outfitted with Airtight clamps and use the Fritz & Franz jigs for many things sometimes in combination with the Airtight clamps.

At the Martin workshop the German Meisters say with proper use the fingers should never be near the blade and cannot understand why we would want to depend on technology like Sawstop for safety. Most of the safety techniques require a sliding table saw though. Most shops in Europe do not use conventional table saws.

The old UK method with the short fence and large blade looks pretty dangerous to me. We are going to tour some UK shops this year and will be curious if this is still in practice.
Joe

303961303962303963303964303965

[ian maybury]

I've often figured that if we spoke German that there's all sorts available out there by way of correct use manuals for sliders. There's as before i think a gap in the English speaking markets for something like this - it'd probably just take a translation.

One nice option with the slider which is presumably in the possibilities you refer to Joe is the ability to use a retracted fence as a stop to set cross cuts which are made with the work clamped to the slider. (not safe if the fence extends past the start of the blade) This actually is one of the major reasons i made the DIY short/extending fence to fit on the full length Incra fitted to my K3, with that set up the Incra adds repeatable very fine positioning as would say a readout equipped stop....

[Peter Aeschliman]

Concerning the proper use of the sliding two position Euro fence.
I spent a few days at the Martin factory in Germany last year training on the safety, proper use, adjustments and maintenance of the machines.

When using this type fence in a conventional way (not with the sliding table) the fence should start at blade center for narrow rips. As boards get wider and the fence moves farther away from the blade the end of the fence should be about 30 degrees from center of blade. The picture shows a 30-degree angle being used just to give the idea. In practice just eyeball it. For solid wood the advantage of using the fence this way is less chance of kickback and easier on the blade.

For man-made sheet goods the fence should be used extended far past the blade. (Again, not with the sliding table)

The use of the fence with the sliding table opens up many more possibilities with the fence positioned behind the blade for many cuts. We have our slider outfitted with Airtight clamps and use the Fritz & Franz jigs for many things sometimes in combination with the Airtight clamps.

At the Martin workshop the German Meisters say with proper use the fingers should never be near the blade and cannot understand why we would want to depend on technology like Sawstop for safety. Most of the safety techniques require a sliding table saw though. Most shops in Europe do not use conventional table saws.

The old UK method with the short fence and large blade looks pretty dangerous to me. We are going to tour some UK shops this year and will be curious if this is still in practice.
Joe

303961303962303963303964303965


Very interesting. So Martin recommends extending the fence past the front of the blade... the plot thickens.

I would love to get a full format style slider... but even the Hammer K3 Winner is $5,700. The K4 Perform is nearly $10k. A little rich for my blood... :)

I think what I'll do is make an accessory for my SS biesemeyer clone fence and try it out. I like the verysupercooltools fence, but it looks like its positioning is intended to be somewhat permanent (you need an alan wrench to adjust it). I'd like something a bit more precise and permanent than a plywood carriage for my fence.

[jack forsberg]

Concerning the proper use of the sliding two position Euro fence.
I spent a few days at the Martin factory in Germany last year training on the safety, proper use, adjustments and maintenance of the machines.

When using this type fence in a conventional way (not with the sliding table) the fence should start at blade center for narrow rips. As boards get wider and the fence moves farther away from the blade the end of the fence should be about 30 degrees from center of blade. The picture shows a 30-degree angle being used just to give the idea. In practice just eyeball it. For solid wood the advantage of using the fence this way is less chance of kickback and easier on the blade.

For man-made sheet goods the fence should be used extended far past the blade. (Again, not with the sliding table)

The use of the fence with the sliding table opens up many more possibilities with the fence positioned behind the blade for many cuts. We have our slider outfitted with Airtight clamps and use the Fritz & Franz jigs for many things sometimes in combination with the Airtight clamps.

At the Martin workshop the German Meisters say with proper use the fingers should never be near the blade and cannot understand why we would want to depend on technology like Sawstop for safety. Most of the safety techniques require a sliding table saw though. Most shops in Europe do not use conventional table saws.

The old UK method with the short fence and large blade looks pretty dangerous to me. We are going to tour some UK shops this year and will be curious if this is still in practice.
Joe

303961303962303963303964303965


I thought it was 4 positions for the sliding plate? most often not mentioned is the slid back low fence for narrow beveled rips with the blade tipping in to the fence plate. the low fence does not foul the crown guard and lets the use of a push stick and does not trap the beveled cut between the fence . That Robinson saw is the old rip saw with fixed arbor the rise and fall is the table Joe and it don't look that scary to me. the guy even lets go of the wood to get the sticks and his hands are never near that blade. that is a current training video for apprentices in the UK and there is still a fair amount of these saws in use there. there are also full slider and there trained on these saws too.

the rip saw short fence is to handle reaction timber like this 50" Sagar rip saw with rope feed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9HMLx6Iiv8

All the rips saws i have seen with power feed have the short fence like the SLRs or like this Wadkin rip saw in this UK furniture shop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWeFhpJ1rJI

[Larry Edgerton]

I have both Biesmeyers and a Unifence but there is a Biesmeyer on the saw I rip with most so I made a magnetic half fence to slip over the Biesmeyer for ripping solid wood. I like to have both.

[Peter Aeschliman]

the rip saw short fence is to handle reaction timber like this 50" Sagar rip saw with rope feed

YouTube Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9HMLx6Iiv8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9HMLx6Iiv8)



Woa. That video nearly gave me a panic attack. I thought I was going to see an amputation at any second!

[Joe Calhoon]

I thought it was 4 positions for the sliding plate? most often not mentioned is the slid back low fence for narrow beveled rips with the blade tipping in to the fence plate. the low fence does not foul the crown guard and lets the use of a push stick and does not trap the beveled cut between the fence . That Robinson saw is the old rip saw with fixed arbor the rise and fall is the table Joe and it don't look that scary to me. the guy even lets go of the wood to get the sticks and his hands are never near that blade. that is a current training video for apprentices in the UK and there is still a fair amount of these saws in use there. there are also full slider and there trained on these saws too.

Hi Jack,
4 positions? The good Euro fences are adjustable to any position fore and aft.
Here is how the smart money does those bevel cuts. Overhead guard raised for the photo.
304010304011

I usually prefer to do these narrow bevels on the shaper or jointer. Peter G can just tilt his saw either direction.

If you are referring to the Warwick College videos? IMHO those are very outdated.

the rip saw short fence is to handle reaction timber like this 50" Sagar rip saw with rope feed

Jack, why do all your saw videos show getting a lot of sawdust in the face?:)



All the rips saws i have seen with power feed have the short fence like the SLRs or like this Wadkin rip saw in this UK furniture shop.

This is true and our small SLR is like that. You have to remember these are track feed and that works well in that combination.
We ran a power feed table saw for years. You have to be careful with the short fence using a power feed depending on how many wheels you remove. As the feeder is putting pressure on the fence. We destroyed a Unifence with a power feed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWeFhpJ1rJI
I like this one. The circular resawed look is very popular here for rustic work vs the bandsawed. I would like to have the Pickles parked outside my shop. It would be a little unhandy for general straight line work though.

Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

Very interesting. So Martin recommends extending the fence past the front of the blade... the plot thickens.



Hi Peter,
I would not get too hung up about it. These are general recommendations and I have found not all the German woodworkers use the fence the same way.
I ripped with a normal US fence for many years just because I did not know any other way. Main thing when using a table saw is focus, not get in a hurry and develop consistent good habits.

Joe

[jack forsberg]

I like this one. The circular resawed look is very popular here for rustic work vs the bandsawed. I would like to have the Pickles parked outside my shop. It would be a little unhandy for general straight line work though.

Joe


Ya that's how the English do it to with the right tilt and good to see the Germans have caught on.:p you can see it here at HSE safe work practice

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

I thought it was good them to teach old school saws as well as modern. Never know what you will run into out there Joe. No all shops have Martins:) thats were that short fence come from so it goes with out saying there for big blade saws that through a bit of wood at ya. The High(1) Low(2)for(3) and aft(4) fence is an evolution of these old sliding rip plate fences that came with the development of the panel saws for sheet stock.

[Roy Turbett]

Pete-

I just traded my Unisaw with a Unifence for a Sawstop ICS with a Biesmeyer style 42" fence and like everything about the Sawstop better except for the fence. I used to move the Unifence about even with arbor when cutting dimensional lumber and left it long when cutting sheet goods. This is because the kerf on dimensional lumber tends to move. It can either open, close or remain the same. The length of the fence doesn't affect anything if the kerf remains the same or closes, (You can still get a kickback, especially if you aren't using a riving knife or splitter, but it the length of the fence didn't cause it.) However, if the kerf should open, the length of the fence comes into play because the leading edge of the board will remain against the fence but the middle of the board will spring back against the blade. This can cause the wood to burn or kickback, especially if you're not using a splitter. I tried moving the Unifence so it was just past the point where the cut was complete but found that I prefered it back just a little further so the end was even with the arbor.

As for my Sawstop, I made a short auxillary fence that I clamp to the factory fence and use it for cutting dimensional lumber. I use the full length fence for cutting sheet goods.

[Joe Calhoon]

Ya that's how the English do it to with the right tilt and good to see the Germans have caught on.:p you can see it here at HSE safe work practice

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

I thought it was good them to teach old school saws as well as modern. Never know what you will run into out there Joe. No all shops have Martins:) thats were that short fence come from so it goes with out saying there for big blade saws that through a bit of wood at ya. The High(1) Low(2)for(3) and aft(4) fence is an evolution of these old sliding rip plate fences that came with the development of the panel saws for sheet stock.

Thats a good publication Jack. I see they show the fence more forward than the old UK rip saws.
Fritz & Franz and the Airtight clamps add another level of safety to this because they eliminate the need for push sticks in most cases. You don't need a Martin for this. Many ranges of price for Continental made saws with this type sliding fence both new and used.
Joe

[Roy Turbett]

My sawstop PCS has a riving knife, etc. But I'm considering swapping the fence out for a verysupercooltools fence and cutting the aluminum extrusion down so that it is no longer than the front gullet of my 10" blade's when at a reasonably low height setting... that is if it is safer and more accurate. But I'm stuck on this point...



Pete -

I just looked at the verysupertools website video and don't see why you can't make an short auxiliary fence that attaches to the extruded aluminum like the tall fence accessory. That way you could keep the longer fence for sheet goods.

[jack forsberg]

Thats a good publication Jack. I see they show the fence more forward than the old UK rip saws.
Fritz & Franz and the Airtight clamps add another level of safety to this because they eliminate the need for push sticks in most cases. You don't need a Martin for this. Many ranges of price for Continental made saws with this type sliding fence both new and used.
Joe

Dave added an air clamp to his old slider. I Opted to make mine for the PK old school and manual. Very handy for odd short work. Mine can bolt to any of the the threaded hold. I do agree there a vast improvement to holding the work safe.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/wadkinbackmiter011_zps00bf76e4.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/wadkinbackmiter011_zps00bf76e4.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/wadkinbackmiter014_zpsdf29fdfa.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/wadkinbackmiter014_zpsdf29fdfa.jpg.html)

[David Kumm]

Jack's is way cooler, but here is mine on the whitney.304037 I now have a base made that slides and locks with only a quarter turn in the T slot. Both Jack and Joe are a million times more knowledgeable than I am but I am protective of my thumbs as they are what separate me from most mammals. Dave 304038

[Joe Calhoon]

That is a beautiful fence and clamp Jack!

Dave, Do you have Airtight on your SCM slider? It changed the way we worked the sliding saw. Mac is working on a sliding workbench track that can hold the clamps.
Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

Dave,
Ok I see one picture is on the SCM. Where did you get the crosscut and rip fence for the Whitney?
Joe

[David Kumm]

Joe, I have sets for both SCMI and Knapp. They are in different buildings and I304052304053304054 traded Mac for some machine parts for one set. I got the better deal. I added the bar on the Whitney rip fence to fit either the Unifence or Ttrackusa knockoff. As to miter gauges, both the Whitney and Tannewitz are interchangeable and i have some of both. I have a storage unit for the base on the Whitney but take the head off another machine for use. Mac has made me various size t nuts to fit SCMI, Knapp, Felder, and Whitney so i have some flexibility. 304055 Dave

[Kevin Jenness]

Jack, I am disappointed to see that you did not clock the screws on the brass trim of your crosscut fence. It is sad to see the old standards slip away.

Thanks for the Pickles video. I think I will stick to the bandsaw for ripping rough stock like that.

[Dennis Aspö]

...Fritz & Franz and the Airtight clamps...

This sounds to me like it ought to be the name of a band.

[Chris Parks]

This sounds to me like it ought to be the name of a band.

Awesome, whose on lead guitar?:)

[Frank Martin]

Joe, I have sets for both SCMI and Knapp. They are in different buildings and I304052304053304054 traded Mac for some machine parts for one set. I got the better deal. I added the bar on the Whitney rip fence to fit either the Unifence or Ttrackusa knockoff. As to miter gauges, both the Whitney and Tannewitz are interchangeable and i have some of both. I have a storage unit for the base on the Whitney but take the head off another machine for use. Mac has made me various size t nuts to fit SCMI, Knapp, Felder, and Whitney so i have some flexibility. 304055 Dave

David, I have a Minimax CU300 smart and needed a new saw fence as the one that came with mine (bought used) had a belly. Tried to order a replacement from Minimax, but they keep sending me a shorter one.

I am interested to find out if the Unisaw / Ttrackusa fits the SCMI fence head without any modifications or if you had to make any modifications, some details on that so I can try that myself.

Thanks

[Rod Sheridan]

Awesome, whose on lead guitar?:)

Martin, obviously :-)