Slippery slope-bought planes-bad decision?

[Jerry Olexa]

In my haste today, I may have made a bad decision..in spite of the snow here today I was determined to get started and get some old planes ..I knew of a gentleman who was selling a bunch of planes and spokeshaves etc. and I went ahead and bought 2 number five Baileys, one number 7 Bailey-and a number 4 (brand unknown). Along with it came some spoke shaves, some block plane parts, etc. I paid $120 for all. Now the bad news: we were both in a hurry ..It was snowing heavily road conditions were not good so I acted quickly. Once I got the them home and examined it more carefully I realized it may not of been a wise purchase. All the Baileys had the kidney shaped hole, all the Baileys has Stanley stamped on lever, 2 of the planes have Stanley against the orange background. All of these signs indicate to me that they are probably post World War II ..I was hoping of course to get pre-World War II Baileys. The good news is they are in good condition... I did some initial cleaning on one of the number fives and the there is virtually no rust and the original blue japanning is intact...so they appear to be newer but unfortunately post World War II.. Let me know what you guys think.They are in good condition and it will be easy to get them cleaned up, sharpened but I am disappointed.. If you are interested Ill get a few pics..reminds me of old saying "act in haste. repent at leisure".. Anxious to hear your thoughts...

[Chris Hachet]

At $120 you are out 1 / 3 the price of a premium LN plane. I would not worry about it...use the planes and enjoy them.

Show us some pics when you get them put to work in your shop

[Frederick Skelly]

Id use them and enjoy them for what they are, Jerry - user tools. After a while, you might trade up on one or more. You arent locked in.

There's different views on the right way to buy things, right? Some guys say 'buy the best right away and you wont have to replace it.' That works if you have enough disposable income, or if you just really like to have very nice stuff. And theres nothing wrong with that approach.

But Im often at the other extreme - I choose a cheaper item and use it to get smart on what I really want or need. I dont usually see that as wasted money. Instead, I see it as paying to learn something I dont know - almost like taking a class or building a prototype. (Though I know some people strongly disagree with this approach, I find it works well for me.) To each their own.

Regardless, I bet you can get $120 in learning and fun out of those pretty quickly, then set em aside if you want better. I wouldnt let yourself feel bad about this.

Fred

[Joe A Faulkner]

Sharpen the blades and take them for a test drive. If you aren't happy with them, you can probably recoup your investment - $30 a pop for the #5's; $60-$70 for the #7.

[Judson Green]

Don't worry about it. One of my favorite 4's is post WWII.

Just means the sweet deal is that much closer.... go jump on that 8 if its the one I'm thinking of it looks good enough to me to be a good user, I'd talk him down a bit though.

[John Vernier]

I have as much trouble as anyone keeping all the "type study" info in my head, but I think the details you mention in your description apply to planes from as early as the 1930s. I have a couple planes of that vintage and they give good service.

[Jim Matthews]

It's good value for money, Jerry.

Even if you don't resell for big bucks,
quality planes like these are excellent trade bait.

[Jim Koepke]

If you can get them to work well, it doesn't matter when they were built.

I am more curious about the spokeshaves and block plane parts.

jtk

[Jerry Olexa]

I am encouraged by all of your good,commonsense advice . Thanks .You guys make sense. Jim, I will try to post some pics tomorrow of the other items...I did an initial clean and rough sharpening of the #5 and 7. Both now producing pleasant wood curls..so maybe it wasn't such a bad idea after all. Tomorrow will tell us more. Thanks for your thoughts on this

[Tom M King]

They sound like they would work fine. We use a bunch of these planes, I'm sure a lot more than even a very busy hobbyist. I never worried about which series, or types, or whatever the different versions of the same model are called. My priorities when I bought mine were mainly that they didn't need much cosmetic work, and the irons still had a lot of life in them, with no pitting. I have several of each, and never even checked when they were made.

[Dave Parkis]

I buy a LOT of planes and sell one here and there. I'm pretty sure the kidney shaped hole was introduced around 1933. If the blue one has a lever cap with STANLEY in a yellow background, its definitely after WW II and generally not highly regarded, but that doesn't mean it can't be a great user. If it turns out the 7 is pre-war or even war era, you can get most of your money back on that one plane should you decide you want to sell it. As already suggested, clean 'em, sharpen 'em up and have some fun. If you're really curious about vintage, www.rexmill.com (http://www.rexmill.com) is an excellent souce. Click on "Type Study" on the right upper area of the homepage and you'll find pretty much everything you need to know. Nice buy!!

[don wilwol]

The only real difference is a post war MAY take a little more work to tune up. Once tuned, they all do well as users. You did fine IMO.

[Chris Hachet]

The only real difference is a post war MAY take a little more work to tune up. Once tuned, they all do well as users. You did fine IMO.


One of my best bock planes is a 9 1/2 that is a post war maroon Stanely 9 1/2. Almost as nice as my Lie Nielson, it loves to be in my hand.

[steven c newman]

Slippery slope? Nah, you have only just begun. Wait until you HAVE to build one of these..
303790
Might add, all the Millers Falls planes on this till, are post WWII era planes. Still very good ones, too. The three larger planes? The #6 is the only one that is pre WWI. The #5-1/4 is from the mid 1920s. There is even a WWII made Wards #3, with the hard rubber adjuster wheel. All have been well tuned up, and sharp.

[Tom M King]

One of my best bock planes is a 9 1/2 that is a post war maroon Stanely 9 1/2. Almost as nice as my Lie Nielson, it loves to be in my hand.
I'm still using one like that, as well as a 60-1/2 that I bought new. Nothing in the world wrong with them.

[Prashun Patel]

I have a post WWII Bailey #7, #4, and #5, #3.

They all work fine. In fact, that #5 is one of my favorite planes.

What kind of spokeshave is it? It's funny that spokeshaves usually get thrown into purchases like this, or go for such cheap prices. I love my shaves, and ALL of them can be cajoled into good service.

[Jerry Olexa]

Here are some pics that will show more detail of my purchase:
303791303792303793
The first pic is of the #7 and #5 after a rough clean and sharpen, Both now working well. Second pic is of the untouched "as is " #5 Bailey and #4 (make unknown-no markings)..The 3rd pic is of the "other" items that came with the sale..
I'm already happy with the performance of the first 2...The others remain to be seen..But the process is fun and rewarding (up to a point).
Anxious to hear your opinions..Thanks.

[Chris Hachet]

Here are some pics that will show more detail of my purchase:
303791303792303793
The first pic is of the #7 and #5 after a rough clean and sharpen, Both now working well. Second pic is of the untouched "as is " #5 Bailey and #4 (make unknown-no markings)..The 3rd pic is of the "other" items that came with the sale..
I'm already happy with the performance of the first 2...The others remain to be seen..But the process is fun and rewarding (up to a point).
Anxious to hear your opinions..Thanks.


Seems like you made one purchase and got the whole set up to get started with hand tools...

[steven c newman]

#4 has a low knob, can't see any lateral, and seems to be wider than the #5? Has an older keyhole lever cap, too. Better views of it? Looks like an early model #4-1/2? Pre-WWII, might even be older?

The molding plane is a keeper. That little red plane shaped object...isn't. The Block plane base is a #220. The handle with the thumbscrew will hold a scrapper blade.

Not too bad a haul!

[John Vernier]

It looks like you got a very good deal there, after all. If those spokeshaves are useable they are a very nice freebie. Your no.7 jointer does not have the raised rib at the toe, which was a detail added starting in 1933, so it's older than that.

[Jim Koepke]

The #5 next to the older plane looks to have a hard rubber depth adjuster. That would date it to WWII. The one Steven thinks might be a #4-1/2 would be the big deal maker if he is right. Some folks will pay $100 all day long for one.

How wide is the blade?

It looks like there may be a small tip of the lateral adjuster (if it is, it looks like a Stanley/Bailey) just above the lever on the lever cap. That one also has my curiosity running. My first question would be about the depth adjuster. Is it left hand thread or right hand thread. If it is right hand thread, there may be patent information inside the brass adjuster. If it is a Stanley/Bailey lateral lever there are likely patent dates on that also. Two dates on a type 5, three dates on a type 6 & 7 and only one on the type 8 and some early type 9s.

There may also be a patent date on the chip breaker.

Curious minds are yearning for more.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

303793

What is that thing in the lower left corner? Some kind of scraper tool? Is that what Steven was referring to?

[Jim Koepke]

What is that thing in the lower left corner? Some kind of scraper tool? Is that what Steven was referring to?

I think that is what Steven said was a holder for a scraper. I thought it might be good for holding blades while sharpening.

jtk

[don wilwol]

Looks like the #4 says no 4 on the toe. As Jim, I'm a little curious.

[Tony Zaffuto]

You did fine. Sharpen and use them. Learn to adjust the chipbreaker and you'll be tackling most any wood on your bench.

[Jerry Olexa]

Took some pics of the #4 only..(not cleaned but a bit of steel wool to find markings)...Some findings:
#4 plane only:
ON CHIPBREAKER: Baileys Patent Dec 24, 1867
on blade: Stanley rule & Bevel co., New Britain, Conn., USA
2” blade and chip breaker
Adjustment lever: (just barely) STANT? bent? stamped (probably Stanley)
“ “ “ - cannot read area before stamped portion (above)
see pics for detail..






Hope this helps

[Jerry Olexa]

One more..Had to reduce size..

[don wilwol]

http://www.timetestedtools.com/typing-stanley-bench-planes.html

[Joe Williams]

I have purchased half a dozen post WWII stanley planes, even one that was made as recently as 1983. I am just not understanding why people are so against using these planes. A few of the pre WWII versions I have are a bit simpler but they don't really have any difference for me in usage.

Is it simply because they don't sell well or collect well? I haven't changed my irons or anything, just sharpened them and that's it. I pulled a #6c right out of the original 1980s box and didn't even sharpen it and it was fine. Sometimes I wonder if I just have no clue what a really good plane feels like.

[Sean Hughto]

Production quality started seriously tanking by the late 50's. Could many of the planes still be made to work - sure. But many had very poor fit and finish and declining adherence to important tolerances making them more frustrating "plane shaped objects" than actual tools good for anything more than the roughest carpentry tasks. The old ones are almost universally useable and capable of finer work with better fit and finish in terms of things like frog bedding, handle contouring, etc. The pre-WW2 cut off is arbitrary, but it is a reasonable rule of thumb for folks looking to maximize their chance of getting a decent tool that can do 95% of what we ask of it as furniture makers.

[Jim Belair]

Jerry, you forgot about the rest of the saying. It's "Act in haste. Repent at leisure. Then think about it a bit more and realize you didn't do so badly".

[Stew Denton]

Hi Jerry,

+1 on what Jim, John, and the others said.

As John pointed out, and I had also noticed, the #7 does not have a raised rib on the toe and heel as the planes made after 1933 had, and also it has a raised ring around the knob, meaning it was made after about 1925 or so, I think. (I didn't look it up, so that is the approximate date.) Thus an owner must have replaced a broken or lost lever cap with a later model at some point. Thus, in my view, you have a very desirable #7, one likely made between about 1925 or so and 1933.

The #4 appears to be a very old Stanley, from the Blood and Gore site it looks to be one made between about 1888 and 1902, as those had that type of bed. Also a very desirable plane for a user, and it looks to be in very nice shape. The thumb plate on the end of the adjuster arm looks clearly like a Stanley type, and the "Stanley" stamped on the lever is a dead give away, as you already noted.

I am a user, not a collector, so like the rest I would clean them up, sharpen, and give them a go. If they do a great job, which you have pointed out is the case for some already, then I would be tickled pink with them. I like the old ones simply because I think that one is likely to be a good user, but if I had a newer one that was a good user, it would get used a lot.

That said, it is pretty neat to use a tool made about 100 years ago or a bit more, like the type 10s and 11s, and your #4 is older than that, and possibly significantly more. By the way, it is clearly a #4, because the #4 1/2s have a 1 3/8" wide iron, and the #4s have a 2" wide iron.

For what it's worth, I think the bench planes alone are worth more than what you paid for everything, and in addition to the bench planes you got a drawknife, spoke shaves, parts for block planes, etc. I don't think you robbed the guy, but do think you got a pretty darned good deal on the stuff!

Stew

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The most important question is always.... how do they work for you?

Interested in how they work after you sharpen the blades (if they need it).

[Jim Koepke]

Jerry,

That has all the marks of a type 6 except the blade. First is the three dates on the lateral lever. Second is the two dates inside the depth adjuster. The blade is a replacement from the era of type 10 or 11.

I have two #4s and one #4-1/2 of this type. The hardest part is remembering the depth adjustment is backwards from the later types. That's actually pretty easy.

It should be possible to straighten the lateral lever. Just do not use the frog for leverage.

It is kind of enjoyable using a plane that is around 125 years old. We should look so good when we are that age.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

I have purchased half a dozen post WWII stanley planes, even one that was made as recently as 1983. I am just not understanding why people are so against using these planes. A few of the pre WWII versions I have are a bit simpler but they don't really have any difference for me in usage.

Is it simply because they don't sell well or collect well? I haven't changed my irons or anything, just sharpened them and that's it. I pulled a #6c right out of the original 1980s box and didn't even sharpen it and it was fine. Sometimes I wonder if I just have no clue what a really good plane feels like.

Howdy Joe and welcome to the Creek.

My preference is for a low knob on my planes. It is merely a preference and there are no claims from me to it being better. The ring around the front knob starting in 1929 doesn't work with a standard low knob.

As Sean mentioned after WWII there was less hand tool work among the general public. Two wars and changes in how people worked had a strong influence on the world of woodworking and other crafts and trades.

The period from about 1907 to the early 1930s was considered the 'golden age' of Stanley's tool production. Many call what happened in the world of hand tools "the race to the bottom" in trying to make tools as cheaply as possible. IMO this really began with the ogee style frog in 1933. The original purpose was likely for faster machining of less area.

Yes, there are fine planes and tools made during those times, but ones of lesser quality were more likely to leave the factory. Today there seems to be a bit of a renaissance in the world of hand tools. Even Stanley is trying to cash in on the new interests in hand tool woodworking.

As for collectors of old tools they are mostly interested in condition.

jtk

[Michael Ray Smith]

They're fine. Nothing at all wrong with them. IMO, any vintage plane will benefit from a modern blade and chip breaker. . . which for the 2 jacks, one jointer, and one smoother will set you back quite a bit more than you paid for the planes themselves.

[Kees Heiden]

That looks like some mighty fine planes! I have mostly UK made models, probably not very old ones. But I have one #7, type 11, and it sure is a very nice plane. It looks nicer, bedding of the iron is better and the iron is thin but very good. No chatter in this plane with the standard parts.

I did put a thicker iron in my UK made #4 which helps to give it a more solid feel. But in the old models I would first try the original irons and see how they work for you before buying expensive replacement ones.

[Jerry Olexa]

As you guys are educating me, I'm feeling better and better about this purchase ..Sounds like the number four is a pretty valuable plane and the number seven isn't too bad either ..the number fives while fairly common are in decent shape ...the one #5 I cleaned up and sharpened is doing fine..I just started cleaning the other number five last night and I'm also working on the number four which might be the best of the lot....thanks for your enlightenment...the slippery descent continues..thank you..

[Jim Koepke]

Sounds like the number four is a pretty valuable plane and the number seven isn't too bad either

Actually one of the reasons for my settling on type 9 and earlier planes was because they are less expensive. Type 10s are a kind of unwanted step child at the family reunion. Though some users seek these out because they have the frog adjusting set up. Once my frogs are set they tend to stay where they were put.

My most expensive type 6 would be my #4-1/2. It was found in an antique shop in Astoria, OR priced at $30. It still gives me warm fuzzy feelings when it is being used.

The type 11 into the SW Hart years are sought by collectors and users.

As far as needing new blades, there are a lot of folks here who can confirm good results are possible with the original blades. New blades will be more uniform in material hardness and some of the metals will have a higher wear resistance.

jtk

[Jerry Olexa]

Did some more cleaning, adjusting and basic sharpening..The first 3 planes (4,5,7) performimg well as i tested them..The last #5 (rubber knob?) not doing well yet.Some chattering, nor clean planing but I will adjust when I have more time..Here's my summary of findings from your various posts:

The #4 is probable 1888-1902 with a replaced 2" blade, type 10 or 11
The #7 is probable 1925-1933 with a replaced lever cap
Both #5's are post WW2 with the kidney hole ..Probable type 6

3 of 4 already performing well.The last #5 is initially troublesome but I'll adjust, etc..
Will probably keep the #4, #7 and one of the #5's (possible trade up later)..

Am I right on my conclusions?
...As Always, your help is appreciated

[Jim Koepke]

The last #5 (rubber knob?) not doing well yet.Some chattering, nor clean planing but I will adjust when I have more time.

A #5 from the war years (hard rubber depth adjuster) is my is most problematic plane. The lateral adjustment is most difficult to set compared to all my other planes. Some folks like the base of the planes from the war years since the casting is a bit heavier.

My thought on a plane like this is to keep it around for the rough work where one doesn't want to use a good plane. It is also a good beater plane in case a neighbor or friend wants to borrow a plane.

It could also be set up with a well cambered blade for use as a scrub plane.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The last #5 is initially troublesome but I'll adjust, etc..


Can you be more specific? There may be some specific things that can be done to improve the poorly behaving plane. Difficult to adjust? Lots of tear-out?

Glad to hear that the others work great :-)

[Harold Burrell]

Both #5's are post WW2 with the kidney hole ..Probable type 6



I'm thinking that you meant type 16???

[Jerry Olexa]

I'm thinking that you meant type 16???

Harold, you are correct...My error (and I am never wrong....)

[Jerry Olexa]

Did some more adjusting on the #5's..(The frog was set way back).Did some more sharpening, adjusting and now BOTH #5's making curls...Still not where I'd like it but an improvement..I'll keep you advised....Thanks

[Jerry Olexa]

Andrew, heading to my daughter's birthday party but I will study more and do more adjusting etc later....I'll let you know if poor performance continues ...thanks for offering. Jerry

[Stew Denton]

Hi Jerry,

Well, I finally got around to looking up the stuff on the type study tying to narrow the dates down a bit. I think your #4 is a type 6-8, one of those three, and your #7 is a type 14 or 15, and thus made between 1929 to 1932.

I think Jim has a good idea, to use the #5 as a scrub plane or, I might add, for a fore plane, assuming you can't get it to do truly fine work. Both have a lot of camber to the plane iron, but the scrub plane has more. Christopher Schwarz mentions in his book on planes that the plane he uses for fore plane work is a #5 instead of a #6. For that, or like a scrub plane, the #5 should be great, and would be a very useful plane that you would leave permanently set up for that purpose.

The other thing Jim mentioned, to use for a loaner, is also a good idea. People who borrow tools don't always know what they are doing. Some folks mentioned recently that they don't loan tools, and instead have the person bring the project over to their shop.

If you have a spare iron and chip breaker, you could have one iron for use when you loan it out, with only a little camber like a smoother, and one with quite a bit of camber for when you use it for a scrub plane or fore plane. I have often thought about setting up my #6 with three iron-chip breaker set ups, one like a smoother, one like a fore plane, and one like a jointer plane. The idea would be to have a plane to have in a small tool chest to take with me when I have to go to the work instead of bringing the work to the shop, and I have had to do that several times in the past few years. In those cases light is good for a tool chest, and there isn't always room for a big box. I could then use that one plane for several different things....not as good as the specialized planes, but weighing less than taking 3 planes. That leaves room and weight for other tools, and I already have a box that would be a good choice for such a tool chest.

Stew