Upside down receptacles?

[Ole Anderson]

In my wife's hospital room a few weeks ago I noticed these receptacles: I was always taught that the ground plug should be on the bottom. To me any other way just looks wrong. Hospitals often require one of the highest level of commercial work. 12 outlets and none of them being used! Please understand I am not slamming these U of M hospital specs, even though I am a Spartans fan.:p

[George Bokros]

Years ago I remember them being installed that way.

[Judson Green]

An electrician once told me that they should be that way. The thinking is that if something metal dropped on the plug it would hit the grounding lug first. But I think it looks weird too.

[Bruce Page]

An electrician once told me that they should be that way. The thinking is that if something metal dropped on the plug it would hit the grounding lug first. But I think it looks weird too.

That's what I was told by my electrician.

[Dave Richards]

Our hospitals and clinics have them installed that way. Partly for the reason Judson gave. The other reason is if the receptacle loosens, it is the ground pin which becomes exposed instead of the hot. There are specs on how much withdrawl force is required to remove them but they do get looser over time. I think the spec is that they should be tight enough that when the nurse unplugs the cord by yanking on it from across the room, the plug comes off the cord. :D

What kind of a room is it? There seem to be a lot of emergency power receptacles in one spot.

[Mel Fulks]

Well, why are they so crooked ? I would not pay for that .

[Lee Schierer]

We had this discussion where I used to work when two areas of the building were renovated at two different times and the second renovation used a different electrical contractor than the first. Further investigation revealed that the electrical code does not specify which way duplex receptacles are to be installed, just how they are wired. That may have changed in more recent editions. Apparently it is up to the electrician doing the work.

[Mike Henderson]

Every hospital I've visited (thankfully, I've never been a patient) had the receptacles with the ground up. Maybe it's a hospital requirement.

Mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Hospitals not only have to abide by the national electrical code but have their own regulations probably established by the biomedical department. Biomedical regulations could very well dictate that for some reason. The regulations regarding electrical with regards to patient safety are pretty tightly enforced with required strict compliance, regularly scheduled checks, quick follow up checks after a violation is discovered and thorough documentation!

[Patrick McCarthy]

out here on the west coast, at least in a residential setting, they are installed ground down. However, if the outlet is controlled by a wall switch, they are put in ground up - - - but I understand it is for a visual clue rather than a code requirement. Will take a look next time I am in a hospital . . . . . hope not too soon though.

[Wade Lippman]

out here on the west coast, at least in a residential setting, they are installed ground down. However, if the outlet is controlled by a wall switch, they are put in ground up - - - but I understand it is for a visual clue rather than a code requirement. Will take a look next time I am in a hospital . . . . . hope not too soon though.

Most outlets, here in the East anyhow, have one controlled by a switch and one always hot. How would that work?

[Matt Day]

I was a project manager for the CM/GC in healthcare construction for 10 years. Ground up is code and is how every receptacle ever installed on any of my jobs has been done - it would very quickly hit the punch list if not. I believe it is NEC, and I do not believe there is any specific health care spec. I've always understood that residential installs are incorrect but since it looks "normal" to most everyone it is not corrected or marked up during inspection.

By the way, it looks like those receptacles are in what is called the headwall. That's where all of the gases, pillow speaker, vacuum, patient monitoring receptacle, etc. are installed. Believe me, every single one of those receptacles and devices are very carefully planned out. Some of them are on emergency power and everything is supposed to be plugged in a specific place in case of a power failure the patient will be okay.

[Myk Rian]

Many medical apparatus are mounted high, and have plugs angled to keep the cables off the floor.
I noticed that at UofM also.
I do hope your Wife is doing well.

[Dave Richards]

Matt, you're right about that stuff being very carefully planned out.

[Ole Anderson]

I was holding the phone at a wield angle so it made the receptacles look crooked. Anne had a mitral valve repair done there December 16, she went home after 3 days and is doing fine, thank you for asking. She now had a titanium ring holding the valve opening in the right position. Picture was taken at the head end of the bed in a one bed step down unit. Reasons for ground up makes sense. Orange are isolated ground receptacles for sensitive equipment. I just installed some at church for our audio/video equipment due to a ground loop hum.

[Phil Thien]

It is actually faster to plug a cord into a receptacle with ground-up.

[Dave Richards]

Orange are isolated ground receptacles for sensitive equipment. I just installed some at church for our audio/video equipment due to a ground loop hum.

Indeed that's what orange is for. The ones in your photo are red so they are connected to the emergency power to be supplied by the hospital's generator(s) if the primary supply is interrupted. Those would be used for critical life support equipment such as ventilators and physiological monitoring.

Glad to hear your wife is doing well.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dave Richards is a biomedical engineer IIRC. He could probably give us some insight.

[Rick Moyer]

Most outlets, here in the East anyhow, have one controlled by a switch and one always hot. How would that work?
I don't know the answer, Wade, but I bet California has a law for it.

[Jim Matthews]

Well, why are they so crooked ? I would not pay for that .

Ask the staff. As a former service tech to hospital gear
I can say there are two levels of destruction possible
for electrical gear.

What your children can do. (First)
What an RN with too many meds to administer can do. (Second)

In some care units, the space between the beds was designed
when sick Americans were taller than wide.

Beds have become wider, in the interim.

[Dan Hintz]

Ground up is code and is how every receptacle ever installed on any of my jobs has been done - it would very quickly hit the punch list if not. I believe it is NEC, and I do not believe there is any specific health care spec.

I'm aware of no NEC rule that specifies ground plug up.

[Dave Richards]

Some years ago i was in a clinic in St. Paul, MN doing electrical safety testing on clinical equipment. i came across a wall mounted device plugged into an outlet with the ground pin down. The wall covering above the receptacle was scorched and when I opened the cord cap, i found it had melted and burned the insulation back on the wires. the staff told me a child had found a paper clip and dropped it across the the pins. You could see the outline of the paper clip on the plug.


I'm aware of no NEC rule that specifies ground plug up.

NECA 130-2010 specifies the neutral pin is on top.

"Gounding-type receptacles mounted vertically should have the grounding conductor opening at the top. Receptacles mounted in the horizontal position should be mounted with the neutral conductor (long slot) up."
NECA 130-2010 5.5.3.e.

[roger wiegand]

I really upset the electrician working on our house addition when I insisted that he install the outlets ground side up. It really offended him it seemed, though he couldn't explain it. t think there's good reason to do it and no reason not to.

[Dave Richards]

True that, Roger. I installed them that way when we finished the basement and I've done it in my shop. I still need to turn the receptacles over in the upstairs of our house.

[Matt Day]

Dave, I was just going to post that I found found some articles online (Mike Holt for instance) that said NEC does not cover it and that either way is acceptable. Thanks for posting.

[Dave Richards]

Matt, I had to look it up to get the reference number and I came across Mike Holt's comment. The National Electric Code (NEC) and the National Electrical Contractors Association (NECA) are two different things.

NECA130-2010 is part of the National Electrical Installation Standards (NEIS). It is ..."intended to comply with the edition of the National Electric code (NEC) in effect at the time of publication. Because they are quality standards, NEIS may in some instances go beyond the minimum requirements of the NEC."

[Ole Anderson]

Indeed that's what orange is for. The ones in your photo are red so they are connected to the emergency power to be supplied by the hospital's generator(s) if the primary supply is interrupted. Those would be used for critical life support equipment such as ventilators and physiological monitoring.

Glad to hear your wife is doing well.

Well orange is just red with a little yellow thrown and we all know there is a lot of yellow in a hospital room...My bad, yes they were red.:o

[Dave Richards]

:D:D

Very good.

[Phil Thien]

I really upset the electrician working on our house addition when I insisted that he install the outlets ground side up. It really offended him it seemed, though he couldn't explain it. t think there's good reason to do it and no reason not to.

We live in a ground-plug-down world. And many devices, like the surge suppressors that fit into and cover an existing receptacle, and cords with right-angle plugs, are clearly designed for ground-plug-down installs.

So the result of ground-plug-up installs is right-angle cords travelling UP the wall instead of down. And, suppressors may have their reset buttons/indicator LED's facing down, and all the text upside down (which looks dumb).

And then there are heavy transformers that use the middle screw of a receptacle for support. All of the units I've found with a ground plug are designed for a conventional (ground-plug-down) install.

[Patrick McCarthy]

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Most outlets, here in the East anyhow, have one controlled by a switch and one always hot. How would that work?
Wade, assuming a quad outlet, the one controlled by the switch is ground up and the hot side is ground side down. Thus the visual "clue" that part of it is switched.

[Dan Hintz]

NECA 130-2010 specifies the neutral pin is on top.

"Gounding-type receptacles mounted vertically should have the grounding conductor opening at the top. Receptacles mounted in the horizontal position should be mounted with the neutral conductor (long slot) up."
NECA 130-2010 5.5.3.e.

Just to clarify, though... NECA is not the same as NEC rules. NECA are voluntary "standards" the org would like industry to adopt. As I said (and I'm happy to learn otherwise), I'm aware of no such NEC rules specifying ground plugs on top.

[Patrick McCarthy]

It is actually faster to plug a cord into a receptacle with ground-up.

Huh? 3 pins in 3 holes?
Phil, so if I mount it sideways, will my speed be halfway between ground up and ground down?

Never really considered that the slowness of some my projects is because of all the extra time spent inserting plugs, hmmmm . . . . . . yet another reason for me to favor hand tools . . . . . .

[David Falkner]

I've always thought they were suppose to be ground pin down, too. And I guess I've seen and thought this long enough that ground pin up just looks wrong. Besides, my 40 year old tester is made this way and if the plug were 'upside down' then the 'OK' on my tester would be upside down - my OCD kicks in at that point and says it's wrong. ;)
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[Val Kosmider]

My electrician informed me that the code does not specify.

He puts them in with the ground up, which admittedly looks "odd" to the eye, but has a rational explanation, which has already been discussed.

I could not find a link but evidently there was some commercial fire (in a Burger King?) some years back where exactly what has been discussed here happened: something fell, and it landed on the "hot" prong of a plug and started a fire. Had the ground lug been "UP" arguably whatever it was that fell would have landed on the lug and the fire might have been averted.

Urban legend, or real life example, it seems to make sense. Enough to me that I install them "upside down" with the ground lug UP.

[Dave Richards]

Phil, you are correct about the way cords run out of transformer/power supplies. It can sometimes be a pain when we have a number of things to plug in close together. Sometimes though, if the receptacle is lower than the thing that the transformer is powering, it can be nice to have the cord lead running up.

[Dave Richards]

Just to clarify, though... NECA is not the same as NEC rules. NECA are voluntary "standards" the org would like industry to adopt. As I said (and I'm happy to learn otherwise), I'm aware of no such NEC rules specifying ground plugs on top.

If you read my entire post, you'll see that I also said they aren't the same thing. I don't know of anywhere in the NEC that the orientation of receptacles is specified one way or the other.

[Mel Fulks]

I once heard a radio show DIY host give some scenario where ground up would be better ,but I did not absorb much of
the answer ,and he described it as pretty arcane stuff. Something about a fire and arcing out.

[Phil Thien]

Huh? 3 pins in 3 holes?
Phil, so if I mount it sideways, will my speed be halfway between ground up and ground down?

Never really considered that the slowness of some my projects is because of all the extra time spent inserting plugs, hmmmm . . . . . . yet another reason for me to favor hand tools . . . . . .

I know, it seems insane, but I have discovered that it is just easier because the ground is the longest prong and it has to go in first no matter what. And if you can SEE the prong and the hole, it is just easier/faster/more positive.

I'm not saying a ton faster. But I have noticed a slight difference with ease/speed of installation.

[Dan Hintz]

If you read my entire post, you'll see that I also said they aren't the same thing. I don't know of anywhere in the NEC that the orientation of receptacles is specified one way or the other.

I was clarifying. Your post mentioned a potential fire-causing incident that might have been avoided with a plug-down scenario, you quote me saying no NEC code exists to my knowledge, then you quote an NECA code. The way it read may have led others to believe such a code existed, I was incorrect, and your disclaimer didn't happen until several posts later.

[Brian Elfert]

Years ago I was installing one of those six outlet adapters where you remove the outlet plate screw. The outlet plate was stainless steel and fell off and shorted across the hot and neutral of the adapter. It would not have happened with the ground up. I still expect ground down on outlets.

[Stan Calow]

my electrician told me that ground up was so that the cord would more readily pull out if something hit the cord downward (like someone stepping on it) versus breaking the outlet. Interesting to read the different answers on this.

[Myk Rian]

I really upset the electrician working on our house addition when I insisted that he install the outlets ground side up. It really offended him it seemed, though he couldn't explain it. t think there's good reason to do it and no reason not to.
Did you also ask him to clock the screws? :rolleyes:

[roger wiegand]

Did you also ask him to clock the screws? :rolleyes:

I insist on doing it when I'm rebuilding a piano or organ, never occurred to me to do it on the switch plates. Now you've done it!

[Mike Lassiter]

Interesting using reason of something dropped on top of plug shorting out on hot and neutral as the reason the ground should be on top. If the plug is out far enough for something to contact the prongs it could still hit the ground and the hot and short out.

[Jim Koepke]

If the plug is out far enough for something to contact the prongs it could still hit the ground and the hot and short out.

In most situations a ground fault breaker, most likely used in hospitals and kitchens, would trip. The current going through a small piece of wire could possibly cause a fire before tripping a standard breaker.

Also a couple of posters mentioned metallic box covers falling on the ground plug or across the line.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

Also a couple of posters mentioned metallic box covers falling on the ground plug or across the line.


Even though the metallic cover did cause issues for me this should be a very rare situation. Normally you wouldn't be plugging something in without the outlet plate screwed on.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Did you also ask him to clock the screws? :rolleyes:

Well, to be honest about it, my OCD compels me to do it . . . . . . just so it looks "right" . . . . .

Doesn't everybody?????????????????????

[Rick Potter]

You made me look.

I went to Kaiser HMO local office for a blood test, and all the plugs were upside down, even in the reception area.

[Mike Cozad]

All of my exterior boxes are mounted horizontally. Now what?? :confused:

[Mike Henderson]

All of my exterior boxes are mounted horizontally. Now what?? :confused:
I don't know if this is required in the NEC, but horizontal boxes should always have the neutral side up, hot side down.

Mike

[Tom M King]

When we built our house in 1980, I showed my Wife how to wire up the devices. I didn't tell her to orient them one way or another. She put all the ground sockets up. When the inspector came for a final, he said, "Every damn one of them is upside down, but I ain't gonna make you change them". My method for wiring a receptacle is ground wire first, neutrals second, one 180 twist over (I'm right handed), hook up the hots, and in the box it goes.

[Julie Moriarty]

I've only worked on a few hospital jobs but all required the ground to be up and all receptacles to be mounted vertically. The first time I saw this I asked the job foreman about it and he gave the reason about something falling on the plug and hitting the ground blade first. Then he said, "But if you put the ground blade on the bottom, whatever is connected to the plug will be grounded until the plug is completely removed. It all depends on how you look at it."

I had never seen anything like that happen at the time and haven't since. It would have to be a precision hit with the right object. When the subject came up on the job over the years, there was never anyone who had actually witnessed it but there were proponents of the ground up theory and I do remember some saying that's how they are installed in their house.

Back to that first hospital job, I grabbed one of the tools on the job and plugged in to a receptacle I took out of it's package and tested both theories. Both can be correct, but both theories can be seen as weak. In the end, you have to follow the specs and the specs on hospital jobs I worked on always said ground up and receptacle vertical. BTW, all the coverplates in hospitals were stainless steel and that means they are grounded to the receptacle. So it is possible something could short out by hitting just the hot blade and coverplate. As far as the dangers involved, the breaker would most likely trip immediately, GFCI or not. About the only situation that might pose a danger of electrical shock would be where the plug was pulled away from the wall and a conductor touched the hot blade, and nothing else, and sent current to something that wasn't grounded. It's a stretch.

FWIW, every other job I ever worked on was receptacle horizontal and ground to the right.

During those times when work was plentiful in our local, travellers from other locals would come in for work. Many of those coming from rural areas commented on the horizontal, ground right installations we typically did. If I remember correctly, they were used to vertical installations but most often ground down. I think we all pretty much all agreed that conformity mattered most unless specs requires something else.

[Rich Enders]

Perhaps elsewhere in AZ also, but for sure in the greater Phoenix area normal residential is ground down and ground up indicates a switched outlet. The top of the duplex receptacle is switched, and the bottom is always hot.

[Lornie McCullough]

While measuring a kitchen for new cabinets, I had an extended tape measure fall across the prongs of a plug, and short out.

I still install all receptacles ground-plug down, because it looks more pleasing to my eye.

Lornie

[Rob Damon]

I do this for a living.

In Virginia, the State adopts the VUSBC which includes the IEC which references the NEC. The States can choose to adopt the NEC in whole or in part and modify it when it deems necessary. It is not a law but a minimum design safety standard that has been adopted. The National Electrical Code is a standard of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA 70), and it is not the law of the land but a standard that States/Federal government choose to adopt thus making it the law. (Just because the NFPA adopts a new updated standard, does not make it the latest law. The States must adopted it first before it standards become part of the law. Although the NEC 2014 has been published, Virginia only recently adopted the NEC 2011 and will stay on that standard most likely until the 2017 is published. Some States adopt quicker than others.

The NEC code groups have debated this over and over and has thus far refuse to put this requirement in the NEC.

The debate:

- If the plug pulls partially away from the receptacle and a conductive object drops down between the plug and the receptacle with the Phase and Grounded blade (i.e. neutral) up, it could cause an arc and thus start a fire. This is especially prone to happen in bedrooms where beds are push up against an in use receptacle.

- If the plug is oriented with the grounding pin up, the object will not arc and if it rotates down one way, it will make contacted between the Grounded blade and the Grounding blade.

- If it rotates the other direction, the object will make contact between the Grounding pin and the Phase Blade, and cause an arc and thus starting a fire.

-The Grounding pin is longer, if grounding pin is down the cord in pulled out/down, the grounding pin will maintain contact longer.

-Most owners, state agencies have adopted more stringent requirements and feel that Grounding pin up is the way to go, whether safer or not.

-The only exception that almost is never addressed by the Grounding pin up bandwagon is that most A/C window units and refrigerator still come with cord with 90 degree plugs from the cord. If these cords are plugged into the "ground" up receptacle the cord will be coming out the top of the plug and will be bending back over and down, ultimately creating undo stress on the molded plug. So even when a University requires the ground up by supplement technical standards, we will still override it and specify ground down for single outlets that serve dedicated appliances that still come with cords/plugs that have the Ground orientation plugs down.

-In residential applications this is becoming a moot point in new construction which the current adopted codes requires Arc fault protected outlets almost through-out a house. It first started to apply to just bedrooms, but has been extend through the house.

With that said, you will find most Engineers in the past 10-15 years have been specifying ground up.

[Phil Thien]

With that said, you will find most Engineers in the past 10-15 years have been specifying ground up.

I spend a good part of my life in data centers and industrial facilities and never, ever, ever come across ground-up anywhere but hospitals. Ever. Even in brand-new construction.

[David Helm]

I can't believe there are four pages of discussion of what is, essentially, a non-issue. I think the reason most people think that ground down looks better is that we are used to seeing mouths below eyes.

[Brian Elfert]

Sure, it is a non-issue, but I am sure it bugs plenty of people when they see buildings with receptacles ground up. Nobody typically notices receptacles installed ground down, but I bet tons of people notice when receptacles are ground up. Us humans tend to notice when things don't seem normal and normal for most is ground down. My father and I just recently replaced all the receptacles in my house and I would have never considered doing ground up.

[Rob Damon]

Never bugged me personally, when I install quad receptacles in a box at home, I put one receptacle ground up and one receptacle ground down for flexibility.

[David Ezell]

This thread brings back memories. It was 22 years ago that I built the house my wife and I occupy today. As general contractor/grunt I took on the electrical wiring. My wife still cringes every time she plugs something in. She had little faith in my abilities. However, among the 10,000 decisions that you consult each other on during construction, the results on this one still raise observant eyebrows. As I delved into stripping wire and installing outlets I drew a blank on this ground up/ground down question. Lacking Google, I called my beloved, who happen to work in a hospital, and asked her to look at the outlet closest to her and give me guidance. So there you have it. I can always tell guests who notice that the wiring in our house is "commercial" grade. Later, I heard that another reason hospitals do this is that if something gets loose inside the wall and falls down, crushing the metal receptacle box, it would contact the ground first.

[Dan Hintz]

Later, I heard that another reason hospitals do this is that if something gets loose inside the wall and falls down, crushing the metal receptacle box, it would contact the ground first.

If something falls down inside the wall, it would hit the grounded box first. Crushing through that, it would hit the plastic socket body itself. Crushing through that, I think you have bigger things to worry about than hitting a ground wire first.

[Phil Thien]

If something falls down inside the wall, it would hit the grounded box first. Crushing through that, it would hit the plastic socket body itself. Crushing through that, I think you have bigger things to worry about than hitting a ground wire first.

I think they stopped suspending sand bags inside the walls back in about 65 or 70, so it should be moot anyhow.

[Brian Elfert]

I wish was there was an easy way to denote switch outlets when one plug is switched and the other is not. The house I recently bought was wired with the switch outlet on top and the non-switched outlet on the bottom. Common sense dictates you do the opposite as switched lamps and such are usually plugged in long term. My father replaced the receptacles and didn't switch the wiring. (He was the one who taught me the switched outlet goes on the bottom.) Now I want to change them, but it is about #1,000 on the list of things to finish in my house.

[Phil Thien]

I wish was there was an easy way to denote switch outlets when one plug is switched and the other is not. The house I recently bought was wired with the switch outlet on top and the non-switched outlet on the bottom. Common sense dictates you do the opposite as switched lamps and such are usually plugged in long term. My father replaced the receptacles and didn't switch the wiring. (He was the one who taught me the switched outlet goes on the bottom.) Now I want to change them, but it is about #1,000 on the list of things to finish in my house.

Nah, I'd rather have the switched receptacle on top.

That way there is less of a chance that something plugged into the other receptacle (like a wall wart) will obstruct the switched receptacle.

[Chris Padilla]

I install all mine at 45 degrees...or is that 135 degrees?!?! :p

I read once on Mike Holt's forum that this topic is a banned from being discussed there. LOL!

Also, I think David Helm nailed it: it just looks correct to us humans to have two eyes over the mouth. :)

[Brian Elfert]

Nah, I'd rather have the switched receptacle on top.

That way there is less of a chance that something plugged into the other receptacle (like a wall wart) will obstruct the switched receptacle.

My experience is that you don't end up using most of the switched outlets. A lamp, or two, is usually about it. It is a pain to put something in the upper outlet and then remember after it won't turn on that only the lower outlet is live. I suppose once you live in the house long enough you'll remember that only the lower outlets are live in the living room.

[Julie Moriarty]

I read once on Mike Holt's forum that this topic is a banned from being discussed there. LOL!

I think I can see why...


Also, I think David Helm nailed it: it just looks correct to us humans to have two eyes over the mouth.

But why only two eyes? And how come teachers have eyes in the back of their heads?

[Rob Damon]

In the design world, you either put a light fixture on the ceiling or you provide a switch receptacle. Either meets the Building Code for required lighting in the space. If you want a clean looking ceiling, you go with a switched outlet..... and then 10 years later the owner hires an Electrician to add a ceiling outlet for a ceiling fan with a light kit......

[Dan Hintz]

In the design world, you either put a light fixture on the ceiling or you provide a switch receptacle. Either meets the Building Code for required lighting in the space. If you want a clean looking ceiling, you go with a switched outlet..... and then 10 years later the owner hires an Electrician to add a ceiling outlet for a ceiling fan with a light kit......

<chuckle> For some odd reason, our new house has both in nearly every room. Even more surprising to me is there are hardly any ceiling lights installed... cost would have been, what, and extra $30-50/room?

[Chris Padilla]

My experience is that you don't end up using most of the switched outlets. A lamp, or two, is usually about it. It is a pain to put something in the upper outlet and then remember after it won't turn on that only the lower outlet is live. I suppose once you live in the house long enough you'll remember that only the lower outlets are live in the living room.

It is pretty simple to wire in/out the switched hot. A few years ago on a tip from a buddy, I started wiring all my rooms with /3 and made the red wire a switched hot. Now I can go to any outlet Mrs. Chris deems necessary to have a lamp at that can be switched or even return everything back to unswitched. Sitting here thinking, I have no idea if I made the top one or the bottom one switched. :D

[Brian Elfert]

The house I just bought and renovated had one bedroom with just a switched outlet. As part of the electrical work I put a ceiling light fixture in. My father helped me with it and he kept the switched outlet so now I have two switches instead of just one. I can't imagine ever wanting a switched outlet in that bedroom.

I have switched outlets in the living room and I do use them for a lamp since the ceiling light fixture glares off my plasma TV.

[Jim Koepke]

Sitting here thinking, I have no idea if I made the top one or the bottom one switched.

Ask Mrs. Chris, I bet she knows. :cool:

jtk

[Pat Barry]

The house I just bought and renovated had one bedroom with just a switched outlet. As part of the electrical work I put a ceiling light fixture in. My father helped me with it and he kept the switched outlet so now I have two switches instead of just one. I can't imagine ever wanting a switched outlet in that bedroom.

I have switched outlets in the living room and I do use them for a lamp since the ceiling light fixture glares off my plasma TV.
Every room in our house (except the bathrooms) have combination switched and unswitched outlets. The switched ones are on the bottom and the unswitched on the top. You will get used to it being the opposite Brian or you can rewire them when the other 999 things to do are done. In the end, I do think having a switched outlet in the bedroom is good for table lamps for example. The overhead lamp is not pleasant for nighttime laying in bed reading, etc.

[Pat Barry]

If something falls down inside the wall, it would hit the grounded box first. Crushing through that, it would hit the plastic socket body itself. Crushing through that, I think you have bigger things to worry about than hitting a ground wire first.
Yes - this is correct. Leave the building ASAP if this is happening.

[Matt Marsh]

OCD folks, don't let your head explode!

304183

[Pat Barry]

OCD folks, don't let your head explode!

304183
Thats great for plugging in those transformer power boxes

[Dan Hintz]

OCD folks, don't let your head explode!

304183

Is this real? If so, I know a lot of plug issues it would solve (such as two wall warts).

[Rick Potter]

I think this thread should be shut down. It is waay too polarizing.

[Dan Hintz]

I think this thread should be shut down. It is waay too polarizing.

But such discourse is electrifying!

[Ole Anderson]

I would be shocked if the moderators tripped the breaker on this well grounded thread.

[Bill Orbine]

OCD folks, don't let your head explode!

304183

I got sick looking at that receptacle. I think I need to go to the hospital!

[Matt Marsh]

Is this real? If so, I know a lot of plug issues it would solve (such as two wall warts).

No that one I photoshopped, but I have seen some square receptacle devices with several options in various orientations. But I have installed a couple hundred of these USB charger receptacles around the college campus where I work, and people really seem to love them. Most of the charging cables these days utilize wall warts with USB ports, so these will eliminate the needs for the wall warts altogether.

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[Dan Hintz]

No that one I photoshopped, but I have seen some square receptacle devices with several options in various orientations. But I have installed a couple hundred of these USB charger receptacles around the college campus where I work, and people really seem to love them. Most of the charging cables these days utilize wall warts with USB ports, so these will eliminate the needs for the wall warts altogether.

304216

I have a few of the Lutron ones with a socket on the bottom and two USB sockets on the top.

[Matt Marsh]

I have a few of the Lutron ones with a socket on the bottom and two USB sockets on the top.

Yeah, I like the idea of these things. I'll be replacing a bunch around my house with these also. I'm sort of a gadget freak, my house is full of X-10 and Insteon devices, and it seems like about everything is WiFi capable these days. I really love my Honeywell WiFi thermostat. All of this stuff makes me think of that old Ma and Pa Kettle episode with the ultra modern house that they moved into.

[Dennis Peacock]

I would be shocked if the moderators tripped the breaker on this well grounded thread.

Watt are you talking about? Needless to say that Volts around here dream up all kinds of Amps to talk about. I think we should plug this one up and call it powered. :p :D

[Chris Padilla]

Okay, Dennis, I have to admit that was a joule to read and pretty clever. :D

[James P Stewart]

An electrician once told me that years ago (before the ground lug) the National Electric Code called for the NEUTRAL wire to always be on the RIGHT side of the outlet. With that requirement in mind, the ground lug has to be at the top.

[Tom Stenzel]

This made me pull out some of my outlets to check where the screws were but found them terminal.

I wasn't going to add anything but this thread was energized; I couldn't let it go.

-Tom

[Dan Hintz]

An electrician once told me that years ago (before the ground lug) the National Electric Code called for the NEUTRAL wire to always be on the RIGHT side of the outlet. With that requirement in mind, the ground lug has to be at the top.

As far as I can tell, the NEC has never specified location of ground, neutral, or live lugs... sounds like an electrician's wive's tale that just keeps getting passed down from generation to generation.

[Dan Hintz]

This made me pull out some of my outlets to check where the screws were but found them terminal.

I wasn't going to add anything but this thread was energized; I couldn't let it go.

-Tom

You found dead terminals?! Shocking!

[Julie Moriarty]

As far as I can tell, the NEC has never specified location of ground, neutral, or live lugs... sounds like an electrician's wive's tale that just keeps getting passed down from generation to generation.

I worked with guys who practically memorized the NEC and anytime anyone did anything in violation of the NEC, they were right there correcting them. Never was there any mention of orientation of the receptacle. Hospitals did it one way and everyone else did it another. You learn "the right way" to orient them when you're an apprentice and that "right way" is the way nothing more than a local preference.

For all the countless conversations we've had on the jobsites about how to do something the right way (and I've been on jobs with as many as 250 electricians), there has never been one about receptacle orientation that lasted more than a few minutes. They always ended with, "That's our standard here (Chicago and the surrounding areas) and that's how we do it." The NEC was never cited.

[Jason Roehl]

You should be around a group of professional painters of various ages sometime, Julie. You would hear lots of very different versions of "the right way". Of course, for the vast majority of paint application, there is no codified "right way". For me, the person signing the check is usually the one who determines "the right way", unless they're paying me to make that call, too. Life got a lot less stressful once I figured that out years ago.

[Jerome Stanek]

I hated the Chicago area the Electricians were the worst. On CVS jobs they would come late and leave early only would do something when it benefited them and said stuff like this is Chicago you can't do that here when you suggested a better way then when you were gone they would do it that wayand try to take credit for what was in the installation book to begin with. Ha one complain because I took my light bulbs out that they were supposed to supply. Almost got caught by OSHA for plugging into one of the electricians cords that didn't have the ground pin good thing I checked they ended up getting fined.

[Wesley Morgan]

I have been working with electricity for 50 years and have always installed my receptacles ground up. The NEC does not specify an orientation and this is the reason that you see them installed in both directions. As an old timer, I prefer to install them ground up for two reasons. 1.) If the plug and cord pull downward, the ground pin is the first thing that is exposed. 2.) The ground pin is typically round and is more stable to the forces that gravity imposes on the plug to pull out. Think about the other two pins, they are flat and oriented in a vertical direction. (15 Amp)The resistance to bend of the ground pin will also press the other pins into their sockets providing a better connection for the power to travel.
Remember, the National Electrical Code does not specify and the opinion of myself and others is simply that, an opinion.

[Pat Barry]

The attached link has the correct answer to this question of proper outlet orientation.
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=47035

[allen long]

Honestly, I have never seen receptacles with the ground up. Is it a Chicago thing? I have worked and lived in several states from coast to coast and have always seen the ground on the bottom (with a few outliers that would stand out from the rest of the receptacles in the room.

From a safety viewpoint ( and that is what I do professionally ) the ground should be at the bottom. You want the ground connection to be the last thing that breaks if the plug starts to pull down and out due to gravity. Look at GFCI receptacles an example. For those GFCI with the push to test buttons in the horizontal position, the text is usually oriented to be read with the ground in the bottom position.

[Mike Henderson]

The attached link has the correct answer to this question of proper outlet orientation.
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=47035
It looks like they didn't do a ground connection. I didn't listen to it - just looked at it on mute - so maybe they have the ground connected to the box and that connects to the ground through the screws that hold the outlet in the box.

Mike

[Tom Stenzel]

It looks like they didn't do a ground connection. I didn't listen to it - just looked at it on mute - so maybe they have the ground connected to the box and that connects to the ground through the screws that hold the outlet in the box.

Mike

He used an outlet with a clip at the mounting screw for the ground and said the incoming wires were grounded at the box. So you're assumption is correct.

I did an inventory of my house outlets. It will NOT be mistaken for a hospital anytime soon,

And will this thread ever die? It.... hertz.

-Tom

[Dan Hintz]

And will this thread ever die? It.... hertz.

Most viewed SMC thread ever... at 60 viewings every second :D

[Brian Henderson]

out here on the west coast, at least in a residential setting, they are installed ground down. However, if the outlet is controlled by a wall switch, they are put in ground up - - - but I understand it is for a visual clue rather than a code requirement. Will take a look next time I am in a hospital . . . . . hope not too soon though.

That's not necessarily the case, I've had electricians who came in and installed them ground up, I went back and reversed them later. I prefer them ground down because it's easier to keep plugs from falling out of the socket. If you slightly bend the prongs out, they stay more securely. I guess in the end it's all personal preference.

[Jason Roehl]

Most viewed SMC thread ever... at 60 viewings every second :D

The activity in this thread has seemed to come in three phases.

[Ole Anderson]

We can kill the thread now, we hit over 100 posts. All over one stinking little pin. What else could be possibly said? That being said, I have seen a thread on "are you a thread killer" go on for years and nearly 10,000 posts and over 200k views over at irv2.com.

[Dan Hintz]

The activity in this thread has seemed to come in three phases.

The differences in opinion provide a large 'delta', but I'm not sure 'Y'...

[Pat Barry]

I have developed an alternating opinion regarding the receptacle orientation.

[roger wiegand]

At least it's a well grounded discussion.

[Julie Moriarty]

Honestly, I have never seen receptacles with the ground up. Is it a Chicago thing?

No. The only time I've seen a ground up installation was when it was done by a homeowner, unless it's in a hospital or medical facility. When I started my apprenticeship, the horizontal installation was just coming into favor, ground to the right. Any time you see a vertical installation, it's a sign the building was built pre-1970. The horizontal installation was entirely an aesthetic choice.

[Mike Henderson]

No. The only time I've seen a ground up installation was when it was done by a homeowner, unless it's in a hospital or medical facility. When I started my apprenticeship, the horizontal installation was just coming into favor, ground to the right. Any time you see a vertical installation, it's a sign the building was built pre-1970. The horizontal installation was entirely an aesthetic choice.
Julie - do you mean that residential installations in your area are horizontal? Or only commercial? Or is it hospitals?

Around here, outlets are installed vertically with the ground down in all new residential housing. (except for switched outlets)

Mike

[Pat Barry]

Its mind boggling - I have never seen a sideways outlet. I guess I just haven't looked hard enough.

[Dan Hintz]

Its mind boggling - I have never seen a sideways outlet. I guess I just haven't looked hard enough.

I think the only time I've seen one was in a bathroom where wall space above the sink was at a premium.

[Lee Reep]

I've got outlets in my shop ceiling for lights. Talk about fretting over which way to orient them. After much hand wringing, I chose to orient the ground on the west end of the boxes ...

[Jason Roehl]

I've got outlets in my shop ceiling for lights. Talk about fretting over which way to orient them. After much hand wringing, I chose to orient the ground on the west end of the boxes ...

Now that's funny right there.

[Wesley Morgan]

Julie - do you mean that residential installations in your area are horizontal? Or only commercial? Or is it hospitals?

Around here, outlets are installed vertically with the ground down in all new residential housing. (except for switched outlets)

Mike
In an early post, David Richards referenced a standard that we can all read. NECA 130-2010 specifies the neutral pin is on top.

"Gounding-type receptacles mounted vertically should have the grounding conductor opening at the top. Receptacles mounted in the horizontal position should be mounted with the neutral conductor (long slot) up."
NECA 130-2010 5.5.3.e.

I am old timer that has always installed my receptacles ground up. You can read my post also.

David made a good point with his post of the standard from NECA that I was not familiar with. Look it up on the web and see what you think. If NEC adopts a standard, they may accept the NECA standard.

[Lee Reep]

[...]
Look at GFCI receptacles an example. For those GFCI with the push to test buttons in the horizontal position, the text is usually oriented to be read with the ground in the bottom position.

"Usually" may be the key word. Our home (built in 1983) has a GFCI outlet in the garage that is installed ground up, so that the button text reads correctly. (And it drives me crazy since it is the only one like this ...)

Other GFCI outlets I've added all are conventional ground down, with text reading correctly. Maybe I got a model designed for a hospital, or it is so old it was hand-assembled, and the assembler was having a bad day when he installed the buttons.

[W Craig Wilson]

Back in my days in the USAF, my shop once received a gig from a higher HQ inspector for having Hz receptacles on one of our workbenches upside down.
I cannot remember his reference, and in hind sight he might have just been looking for something to write up to fill in his report.

[Dave Richards]

In an early post, David Richards referenced a standard that we can all read. NECA 130-2010 specifies the neutral pin is on top.

"Gounding-type receptacles mounted vertically should have the grounding conductor opening at the top. Receptacles mounted in the horizontal position should be mounted with the neutral conductor (long slot) up."
NECA 130-2010 5.5.3.e.

I am old timer that has always installed my receptacles ground up. You can read my post also.

David made a good point with his post of the standard from NECA that I was not familiar with. Look it up on the web and see what you think. If NEC adopts a standard, they may accept the NECA standard.

And whether or not the NEC adopts the NECA standard, it is a standard used in medical facilities and by manufactures of medical equipment. I spent most of the last week dressing new anesthesia machines and installing them. They have convenience outlets on the back for powering other devices mounted on them. Those outlets are installed with the ground on top.

As for outlets installed horizontally, they aren't common in our hospital although we have them in the shop. There's a surface mount wiring chase with two separate channels, one for high voltage (120V) and the other for low (data). The outlets are mounted horizontally following the standards with the neutral on top. This puts the ground pin to the left.

Late last summer there were new standards put in place governing the use of outlet strips in patient care areas. That's good for companies like Triplite and Leviton.