septic system leach field failing - advice?

[Ken Platt]

Folks -

I've had nasty septic system stuff coming up out of the yard over the leach field. I'd been about to call for a pumping of the tank anyhow (been more years than it should've been, I know, I know) so I called a guy out.

He looks, says that the leach field has just reached the end of it's useful life, and I'll need the whole thing replaced. He thought pumping the tank would be a waste of my money, advised just leaving it alone for now (the house sits about 15 vertical feet above the leach field, so he said we wouldn't get backup into the house).

He said that the next step was to do some initial digging to see where the water table is so he could figure out where on the property he could put another leach field. He put the price tag for that at $400-500, but if he needed an engineer (which he thought was likely) then it was going to be about $1000 just to be able to get the information necessary to plan a replacement (field and tank both)

My questions for folks -

1. What do you think about not pumping out the tank? I know it needs it. I respect someone telling me it'd be a waste of money, but it seems like even as a temporizing measure it would decrease the (literal) crap draining in my backyard. (I have a couple of pallets covering the worse spot and some hay bales to kind of direct the flow off to the side where it can go into the woods, but it can't be good to have that stuff out there).

2. On the web there are lots of sites claiming "digless" solutions, apparently by injecting stuff into the leach field to help break up the slime coating that is gumming up the leach field. Anyone have any experience with these? Scams, or a viable solution (even if temporary)?

3. Out of curiosity - what do folks do who don't have acreage that they can put a new field into? I have 6 acres, but there's a development right next door to me with a bunch of homes on 2 acres.

If folks wouldn't mind sharing their experiences with this sort of situation I'd be appreciative.

Thanks -

Ken Platt

[Val Kosmider]

Have the tank pumped...it will buy you time, and needs to be done regardless.

Have a good contractor come in who is experienced at building leach fields. His experience will tell you exactly what you need to do, where it can be located, and in a couple of days work...and probably not more than $2,000, you can have a new leach field.

These things are not particularly scientific when you have a little land to work with. Dig a hole (drywell) line it with blocks/ties (don't think people do that any longer for a variety of reasons), crushed stone, lay in some perforated pipes, more stone, some exit pipes (perforated) and cover it over with the excavated dirt. Many don't use the dry well concept any longer, simply go with a multiple perforated pipe and stone/gravel set up. Pretty straight forward, and a little "wisdom" will go a long way in lieu of an engineer to give you some textbook advice (no offense to engineers--just that a leach field in a rural area isn't all that complicated...especially when you have the kind of elevation drop mentioned by the OP.

[Art Mann]

It isn't necessary to pump out a septic tank according to a defined schedule. I had mine done about 5 years ago and the guy said there was almost nothing in it but liquid. It had never been pumped out and we moved in in 1986. I am sure that some people need the service much sooner than I did. Others don't. My thinking is the guy you talked to was probably correct. Pumping the tank empty will probably give you a week or two of relief until the tank fills up, but you are still going to have to fix the real problem. Putting in new field lines is usually not much of a problem except for the expense. Nowadays, they use a different kind of pipe around here that is larger in diameter and creates a high capacity per unit area.

[George Bokros]

Here in Ohio, at least Medina county, leach beds are no longer permitted. You now have to install a filter bed, more expensive and more work to install. Check with a qualified septic tank installer and perhaps the TN EPA.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Not sure what to think about #1. You could pump the tank, but how long before you flush or drain 500 gallons and refill the tank to end up where you are now.

As for #2, do you know the biofilm is causing the problem? If not, it could very likely be a waste of money. Secondly, how long does that stuff to work and take effect? Probably longer than you want. Finally, the most common causes of failures of leach fields (per NH DES) are from non-dissolvable materials (sand, roots, lint from the washing machine, etc) that the biofilm chemicals won't touch.

Regarding #3. It will depend on the layout of your land and the placement of the septic tank and leach field plus the results of the perk test (which is the $400-500 figure is for).

I know of a house where the the layout from left to right is property line-setback-house-tank-field-setback-property line. Everything in a straight line. The house, tank, and field are on the crest of a ridge. No other good place to build a new field. Building a new field in place of an old one, is almost the same as building a "mound". The difference is they have to dig down, then install the mound in the hole. The field at my current house failed years before I purchased it and the previous owner elected to install a new field. The tank is in front of the house and the new field is behind and below. Because there is a turn before entering the field, a new field could possibly be built by turning to the right instead of to the left. Building a new 'second' field will be a matter of distance and slope. The further from the tank, the deeper the field will have to be.

[Mike Wilkins]

From personal experience, pumping the tank will only buy you some time. Not much at that. The leach field will lose its effectiveness after after several decades of use, depending on the amount of use it gets. I had to have the back yard dug up and a new leaching system installed. Cost me $1K and left my yard in a mess. Had to bring in some topsoil to get level again.
And that $1000.00 cost was in the late 90's; likely more today.

[Anthony Whitesell]

There is a pipe that actually isn't pipe now being used for leach fields. It is sections of plastic about 4' long and 2' wide. It actually resembles a piece of plastic culvert pipe 4' long 2' diameter a cut in half lengthwise. The idea is to provide more dispersal area then those little holes in the perforate 4" pipe. I don't know how well it works. Just seen it around.

[Ole Anderson]

Almost for sure you will need a health department permit for a new field. Around here they work in concert with the contractor (licensed in the "field' of septic systems). If it is something other than a straightforward replacement with good soils, you may need to have an engineered system where a licensed engineer does a quick survey, maybe has a couple of test pits dug, sketches up a plan, gets it approved by the local HD and then makes sure the contractor builds it per his plan. Some areas still require a traditional perk test where they dig a hole, pour water in it as see how fast it soaks in. Here a perk test is just the contractor digging some holes and the local HD sanitarian inspecting the soils and groundwater level. Drywells aren't allowed anymore around here. You go from the septic tank right to the field with possibly a simple distribution box. The septic tank has baffles that hold back sinking sediment and floating grease from reaching the field. Anerobic digestion breaks down much of the solids into liquids which are dispersed along with the excess water into the field and gases which vent through your roof stack.

A home on a 1/3 acre lot usually has room for a replacement field, 2 acres estates lots are no problem whatsoever as long as the soils and topography are amenable to a new field.

[Randy Red Bemont]

Ken,


In your area the average septic system will last in the 30 year range depending on use. You’ve probably hit that magic number and your system is dead (can no longer leach liquid back into the ground). Call Simscroft in Simsbury and tell them what’s going on. You will need to have new test pits dug somewhere on you property to find suitable soil and have a septic system designed by an engineer. Yes you will need permits and Farmington Valley Health (is it still called that?) will come and look at the new pits. It only takes about a day and a half to install a new system. I would ask if they recommend pumping the tank at this time or not. If you have 6 acres than it should be no problem finding good soil. If not, they can haul good soil in and build you a raised bed system.


I used to live in Granby and worked at Simscroft. I’ve installed a hundred systems in your area back in the day.


Red

[Ken Platt]

Folks, I appreciate the replies, very helpful. A couple of add on questions:

So, if indeed I just need to bite the bullet and replace the system, I'm wondering how I go about getting a couple of different estimates. If the first step is to determine the land characteristics by digging, it seems like I have to have someone do that in order to give an estimate? Or should someone be able to give me a price just from visual inspection?

And, does each company have to do their own digging check/perk test? At $400 minimum, I really only want to do that once.l So how do I get accurate estimates from several companies? Should I get one to dig and give me a report I share with others?

I hadn't mentioned in the original post, but the rest of the land is wooded, so we're talking tree removal. And, given the slope and the terrain (rocky hilltop) the initial guy thought it likely that we'd be bringing in a bunch of fill. So this is really looking very pricey.

Thanks for the help.

Ken

[Lee Schierer]

Almost for sure you will need a health department permit for a new field. Around here they work in concert with the contractor (licensed in the "field' of septic systems). If it is something other than a straightforward replacement with good soils, you may need to have an engineered system where a licensed engineer does a quick survey, maybe has a couple of test pits dug, sketches up a plan, gets it approved by the local HD and then makes sure the contractor builds it per his plan. Some areas still require a traditional perk test where they dig a hole, pour water in it as see how fast it soaks in. Here a perk test is just the contractor digging some holes and the local HD sanitarian inspecting the soils and groundwater level. Drywells aren't allowed anymore around here. You go from the septic tank right to the field with possibly a simple distribution box. The septic tank has baffles that hold back sinking sediment and floating grease from reaching the field. Anerobic digestion breaks down much of the solids into liquids which are dispersed along with the excess water into the field and gases which vent through your roof stack.

A home on a 1/3 acre lot usually has room for a replacement field, 2 acres estates lots are no problem whatsoever as long as the soils and topography are amenable to a new field.

I had to do exactly that when my leach field failed a few years ago. I ended up spending $15,000 to install a new system. There were other options, but all were more money. Do not proceed without determining the rules for your locale, because there may also be fines if you do something that is not allowed.

[Brian Elfert]

I would think you could hire someone to design the system and then take that design to several installers for bids. For my house the city has copies of the design for my septic system. The previous owners had to replace the leach field system with a mound system in 2011. I may not have bought this house without the new septic system.

Here in Minnesota all new developments with septic systems have to have two spots for septic systems. One spot for a system today and one spot for a replacement system in the future. The areas have to be marked and the soil cannot be disturbed in any way during construction of the house. There is an older area of the city I live in with half acre or less lots. I have no idea how a lot of houses will have room for a second septic system when one is required.

[Art Mann]

Folks, I appreciate the replies, very helpful. A couple of add on questions:

So, if indeed I just need to bite the bullet and replace the system, I'm wondering how I go about getting a couple of different estimates. If the first step is to determine the land characteristics by digging, it seems like I have to have someone do that in order to give an estimate? Or should someone be able to give me a price just from visual inspection?

And, does each company have to do their own digging check/perk test? At $400 minimum, I really only want to do that once.l So how do I get accurate estimates from several companies? Should I get one to dig and give me a report I share with others?

I hadn't mentioned in the original post, but the rest of the land is wooded, so we're talking tree removal. And, given the slope and the terrain (rocky hilltop) the initial guy thought it likely that we'd be bringing in a bunch of fill. So this is really looking very pricey.

Thanks for the help.

Ken

Around here, the perk test is an entirely different thing than having the field lines replaced. Sometimes the same people do both; sometimes not. The perk test is for the benefit of the engineer who authorizes the new plan. The first thing you need to do is get him out on location and take his advice. I will warn you that when he sees effluent on the surface, you are going to have to do something immediately as he may condemn your property until that problem is fixed. Surface sewage is a big deal.

[Myk Rian]

Do you have buyers insurance that could cover the cost? Lee isn't far off with the $15k figure.
If the previous owner put in a new field in 2011, there must be something else going on. Roots perhaps?

[Mark Bolton]

For anyone to tell you that you can have a new leach put in for 2K is abolutely irresponsible. Its completely location dependent. In MA where I am originally from a new leach can cost 20K because the entire existing leach must be removed and it is considered hazardous waste so it must be removed in a sealed container truck. Then new material is brought in to build a new leach. There is simply no way it can be done any other way on suburban lots without acreage. Even if you had room you still cant leave the old leach in place.

As for a chamber system (the culvert cut in half option), again its is location dependent. Some municipalities allow chambers, some only allow concrete chambers, some dont allow them at all.

The answer is to contact a reputable contractor in your area. Your system is not the only one that needs remediation in your area. Its a common occurrence. Anyone speculating about a remedy that is not implementing these systems on a day to day basis is simply offering you flawed advice. Acceptable practices change on a regular basis with allowed and disallowed solutions.

Do yourself a favor and just call a couple contractors and get some valid input from people working in your area.

[Mark Bolton]

Have the tank pumped...it will buy you time, and needs to be done regardless.

Have a good contractor come in who is experienced at building leach fields. His experience will tell you exactly what you need to do, where it can be located, and in a couple of days work...and probably not more than $2,000, you can have a new leach field.

These things are not particularly scientific when you have a little land to work with. Dig a hole (drywell) line it with blocks/ties (don't think people do that any longer for a variety of reasons), crushed stone, lay in some perforated pipes, more stone, some exit pipes (perforated) and cover it over with the excavated dirt. Many don't use the dry well concept any longer, simply go with a multiple perforated pipe and stone/gravel set up. Pretty straight forward, and a little "wisdom" will go a long way in lieu of an engineer to give you some textbook advice (no offense to engineers--just that a leach field in a rural area isn't all that complicated...especially when you have the kind of elevation drop mentioned by the OP.

Val,
The simple fact is "elevation drop" has absolutely ZERO to do with how a leach field operates. Its actually completely the opposite which speaks to the flaws in your advice. To the contrary, a sloped system (on a sloping site) is much more complex to install that a conventional system. Beyond that, in all but perhaps a non-inspected job, "dry wells" have LONG been abandoned and for good reason.

What your advice ignores is that the vast majority of the country (for good reason) operates under engineered standards for a reason. Its because cobbled systems based on off-the-hip engineering have been absolute failures as compared to modern systems. Contaminated water wells, waterways, and just general system failures, basically never happen with "engineered" systems. They work until they fail. Most off the hip systems have people out in the worst of times with a shovel trying to rube goldburg their septic back into service.

The 2000 number? How does that apply to Phoenix? LA? Boston? Atlanta?

[Ole Anderson]

Fields fail mainly from one of these causes: Poor soils to start with, usually too many fines. A poorly functioning septic tank allowing solids to enter and clog the field. High groundwater. Tree roots. My field is 40 YO and till functioning (knock on wood), it has only been pumped 3 times. Some of my neighbor's fields have failed due to local differences in the soil characteristics. It is not unusual for the perk tests to reveal only a small portion of the lot is suitable for a field, especially if you are in an area of glacial geology.

[Clarence Martin]

When we had our septic system replaced, they dug out the old tank, tossed it down the ravine for fill, ripped out all the old pipe and sand filter material. Put a whole new Sand Filter system in. old one had a 750 gallon tank. new system has a 1, 350 gallon double opening tank. We get it pumped EVERY 2 years on schedule in the month of May. Some might say that is overkill , pumping it every 2 years. But, I would rather play it safe and have it pumped BEFORE it fills up. Usually have about 1 to 1 1/2 feet of solids in the bottom every 2 years.

[Mike Lassiter]

Here the county health department inspector does the perk test and will tell you how many feet of field line you will have to put in and also where to put it. Never had to replace field lines (yet) but had a new system install for the double wide we put in for rental property. I met with the inspector and he was very helpful and willing to work with me as to what I wanted to do. I always thought the lines ran out of the tank and needed to be basically level so the water going into them would spread out into the whole area, and didn't think it mattered how deep part of it may be.
We had some dozer work to level the low end up - maybe a foot and a half and tapered to nothing (actually cut that from the "upper" end and pushed it down into the low part) Dozer guy installed the tank and field lines too. He told me the inspector wouldn't let him put the field lines in the filled in area. Would work right. I thought BS - I know the lines need to be level or can be stepped down going down a hill (from previous place I built house on) and while I am not a expert - I thought I understood how things worked and could be done.
So speaking to the inspector he told me the lines needed to be in the top soil area no more than a couple of feet deep. Once you built up dirt with other dirt - even from the same spot but like we did to level up the lines couldn't be put there.
According to him the water would leech down the fill dirt until it hit the boundary layer of the original dirt and them the water would follow the layer and not soak in below it. So the end result would be sewer water traveling down the original slopped dirt until it reached the surface and come out on top of the ground there. We dug test holes but he never actually did the perk test as behind the house where I cleared trees out the ground was sandy and he said he knew it would do great. In our case my oldest daughter was moving into the double wide with her 4 kids and keeping younger sisters 2 when school out. So washing for 6+ and we wanted to ensure we had PLENTY of field line so he said 375 feet would be more than enough.
Here we have to pay the state ( I think maybe county) $500 for permit to install septic system. Everything done through county health dept I think.

[Mike Cutler]

Ken

Have the tank pumped, it's cheap, and will buy you enough time to get some quotes.

I think you have your answer from "Red", and Lee isn't far off with his 15K estimate. Your new system will be an engineered system and anyone that does that work in your area will know exactly how to go about the permitting process. It's going to be a heckuva mess for a few days.

[Mark Bolton]

Fields fail mainly from one of these causes: Poor soils to start with, usually too many fines. A poorly functioning septic tank allowing solids to enter and clog the field. High groundwater. Tree roots. My field is 40 YO and till functioning (knock on wood), it has only been pumped 3 times. Some of my neighbor's fields have failed due to local differences in the soil characteristics. It is not unusual for the perk tests to reveal only a small portion of the lot is suitable for a field, especially if you are in an area of glacial geology.

Ole,
In my time in the home building industry and early in the plumbing trade I think there is an additional cause that isn't in your list and its modern soaps, cleaners, deoderizers, and their associated oils and waxes accumulating in the field. As ridiculous as it sounds food and the occupants lifestyles also play a role.

Its not uncommon to open a leach and find the gravel coated with wax and oil that stay in solution so they make it by the baffles. They are made to staybin solution in the products that contain them. It takes longer to fail the system with a conventional gravel and pipe leach because there is more surface area on the gravel to hold more material. With chambered systems though there is no material for the wax and oils to stick to. They just form a film on th soil and sides of the trench. I believe this is why a lot of municipalities dont allow small plastic chambers.

[Brian Elfert]

The state of Minnesota requires septic tanks to be pumped every three years. There doesn't seem to be any computer system tracking it or anything so you could probably get by without doing it for years if you wanted.

Where I live pretty much every new system is a mound system. The soil is too wet for a traditional drain field system. I'm not sure if some of the old systems are failing because of the soil conditions, or simply because of age.

[roger wiegand]

Pumping won't fix your leak, so is probably a waste of time and money at this point. Your septic guy should be able to give you advice about how to best operate until spring, assuming your ground is as frozen as ours is right now. You only need one perc test, an engineer can design the system for you then you can bid the job out. It's always smart to hire an engineer and contractor who is familiar with your town's procedures and is known (in a positive way) to the inspector. You probably have to wait until he ground is thawed and not saturated with spring rain/runoff to get a good perc test, so you might be waiting until May/June. In the Boston 'burbs $15-20K is a pretty typical price for a simple system. Friends who have replaced systems recently indicated pricing was pretty uniform, unlike for some kinds of contractors.

Before you do anything else go to your town's board of health and make sure you understand your local rules and regulations. They probably have a document describing exactly what you need to do. Do consider installing a 4-5 bedroom system even if you have only 3, the cost difference is small and it buys you future flexibility and/or lifespan.

[Brian Elfert]

Around here, none of the cities or inspectors will recommend a septic contractor for liability reasons. They maintain lists of septic contractors, but that is it. I wish the inspectors could advise against the bad ones, as they certainly know that certain contractors do bad work from doing the inspections.

[roger wiegand]

Around here, none of the cities or inspectors will recommend a septic contractor for liability reasons. They maintain lists of septic contractors, but that is it. I wish the inspectors could advise against the bad ones, as they certainly know that certain contractors do bad work from doing the inspections.

That's true here as well, but when I say to the inspector "I'm thinking about hiring Joe Blow to do this job" all I need to do is watch his facial expression and body language to find out what I need to know. If the response is "Great!" that's way different than "Uhhh....OK". But no, he will not make a recommendation.

[Tom M King]

I'm sure it varies so much from place to place, that almost any advice on an internet forums can be of little to no use. Our system was taken over by Oak tree roots after 35 years. We like having the canopy of large trees overhead, so it's just one of the prices. Our design here calls for 900 square feet. The land perks okay, but not the best. That's what the original system was. We have plenty of open land downhill from the house, so I decided to put in as large of a field as was possible for the benefit of our children.

No problem with getting the larger than minimum requirement permitted. We had 2600 sq. ft. of panels put in. I had given the contractor a lot of work over the years. His Father had put in the original system. Agreed on plan to start with was the contractor could leave after getting the trenches inspected, and I would do the fill, and grading with my tractor. I didn't even ask him for a price, because we knew there was a possibility of hitting rock in the ground. His price after constructing the ditches, with panels for the 2600 feet was $2600. May you be so lucky.

[Mark Bolton]

I'm sure it varies so much from place to place, that almost any advice on an internet forums can be of little to no use.

Exactly.

I operate in Mid-Atlantic. Here its common place to be able to have a brand new system put in, concrete tank, field, and all, including the $180 permit fee, for between $4-5K. Its an utter gift. But even here its very common to hear people balk about how expensive a septic is and they are just going to put "something" in themselves. If they only knew. I was extremely lucky selling a home in MA with a 35 year old system. They have mandatory Title 5 inspection there and at 30+ years its likely you'll be losing about 20K off your selling price because chances are high your system is going to fail. Luckily we were a very conserving household. Used a lot of natural soaps and detergents. A septic company I dealt with regularly let me do all the digging and just came in for the inspection. He said he had never seen a gravel bed so clean. Initially he thought I was hoo-doing him and had dumped some clean gravel in the ditch just to pass. He also would tell people all the time about the detergents, soaps, and so on.

Here in WV with all the clay soils engineers and installers absolutely love trees. They will run a leach out in wooded areas you'd never believe and talk endlessly about the tree's sucking up all the water. Matter of time though Im sure. But it still beats a straight pipe into the creek (all too common).

[Jim Laumann]

I am located in S MN - in a area w/ heavy clay soil, w/ a nice 6-12" layer of black dirt over the clay.

This summer, I spent $15,000 for a new septic system - a mound, as required by state and local (county) ordinances.

Two years ago, we knew we had issues coming - lots of black water coming to the surface in the area of the drain field.
Had a septic contractor out for the semi-annual tank pump, showed him the balck water. Was there anything he could do?

The answer was maybe, it will cost $2500, w/ no guarantee if it would work, nor for how long. "So in other words I'd be
best off saving my money for a new system?" - "yu'" was the reply.

So I got a list of installer names from him (only two that he recommended). Had both out. Got numbers of $13-14K from both.

Contractor 2 would not answer my wifes questions, nor look her in the eye - so he was eliminated.

Contractor 1 did measureing, soil boring, etc,. Had the country inspector out, got it approved. Because I had "turned myself in", the
county did not push the issue of black water on the surface. Had someone else spotted it and called them, I could have been
facing fines.

By this time, winter had arrived, so the project waited until this past summer - after the ground dried out from a wet spring.

The existing tank was crushed. Installed was a 3 compartment 1750 gallon tank. This will allow for a future 4th bedroom if we want, and a garbage disposal (which
wifelet doesn't want - but a future owner might). The 3rd compartment holds a mungo sized 110V pump which pushes the sewage out in to
the drainfield.

The drain field is a mound - about 5 - 5.5' high, and about 40 x 70'. Sadly, this work tore the heck out of the back yard - but it was the only place
we could do it. When I asked about how long it would last, I was told 20 years +/-. If and when it goes to heck, a new one could be located
over the field which failed, as the gound will have recovered it's capacity be that time.

The differance between the original $13-14K bid and the $15K bill was for the oversized tank, which was not on the original bid.

The good news - no load was needed to pay the bill - we had been saving for it, and w/ the sale of some vacation time, we paid for it in cash.

[Steve Peterson]

The state of Minnesota requires septic tanks to be pumped every three years. There doesn't seem to be any computer system tracking it or anything so you could probably get by without doing it for years if you wanted.

Wow, this seems like a lot of effort. Every climate is different. I am in the Sierra mountain ranges in California. Most of our neighbors have septic systems and nobody talks about any kind of septic work. It is often customary to have them pumped when you sell the house, but otherwise there is almost no maintenance. This is a dry climate without a lot of winter freeze, so that must be a big factor.

Steve

[Brian Elfert]

Wow, this seems like a lot of effort. Every climate is different. I am in the Sierra mountain ranges in California. Most of our neighbors have septic systems and nobody talks about any kind of septic work. It is often customary to have them pumped when you sell the house, but otherwise there is almost no maintenance. This is a dry climate without a lot of winter freeze, so that must be a big factor.


I think part of the reason the state require pumping is the pumping guy can do a quick inspection to make sure you don't have issues that require repair like a cracked tank.

[Mark Bolton]

Contractor 2 would not answer my wifes questions, nor look her in the eye - so he was eliminated.

Very very smart of the two of you.

[Larry Frank]

A few years ago,I went thru this. In my county in Indiana you have a soil engineer come out and do soil borings and examines the soil. I have clay and ended up with a mound system for about $10,000. An inspector came out 4 times to examine the work.

[Ken Platt]

I appreciate all the responses. I am at this point waiting for the local health official and the septic guy and the weather to all get together to allow the initial digging. Apparently the health official has said she does not think we'll need an engineer, so that will save a few $$. Then we can get down to system options and estimates.