Marking knife problem

[Fidel Fernandez]

I had to cut several dados and I realized that my marking Knife is not great for that task.

I have the Blue Bruce small knife, it is a nice tool and it fits nice on my hand. The problem is that the blade is not substantial enough to draw a line with against a ruler.

My first knife pull is very light to just mark the wood. The second pull is a little harder and third one is hard. So this creates a nice knife mark and I can chisel to the line.
The problem is the blade is thin and it follows the wood grain. I have problems chiseling to the line because the second one is too close and they become one.

I like the Vee point or diamond shape blade. So I can use it both directions. I had another one that was a single bevel, and I rather have double bevel (vee point).

Do you guys have any recommendation? I was thinking of Japanese marking knife (good thick blade) so I looked the Japan Woodworker site and they have one. I placed the order last week, but I still waiting for shipment.
I will cancel it if I get a better option.

Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Fidel

[Mike Henderson]

I like the single bevel knives, such as this one from Japan Woodworker (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/156567/12-Right-Handed-Blue-Steel-Woodworking-Knife-(Kogatana).aspx). The only disadvantage is that you have to buy a left hand and a right hand. The 1/2" size is good for me.

Mike

[Jim Matthews]

I've started using a cheapo paring knife from the local discounter.

It's really good steel, and takes an amazing edge.
I opted for a hooked paring knife, with plastic handle.

I would like to point out that I only use a knife for striking CROSS grain.
For marking rip cuts, I use a Japanese Kebiki marking gauge.

[glenn bradley]

I use the LV Utilitas version (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=60044&cat=51&ap=1)with good result along and cross grain.

[Alfred Kraemer]

For marking/scoring with the grain along a side of a board I have been using a Kebiki marking/cutting gauge after I saw this demonstration on youtube http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwzeONtOAFg.
That was one of my 'tool surprises' this year. I have a basic single beam kebiki with a beefy, sharp blade. On fairly staight grain, scoring with 2 to 3 passes on both sides one can break 3/8 in oak along the cut lines. A couple of passes with a plane to smooth the rough but straight edge, finishes the cut. Add a little to the final dimension if you use this technique.

For across-grain marking I mostly use a German- style chip carving knife. I like the Japanese marking knives, too. I have a spearpointed version which works well if I need a deeper marking.


Alfred

[Gary Daniel]

Steve Latta did a review of marking knifes in an article for FWW in 2008. Here's the link. http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/video/tool-review-video-marking-knives.aspx

He likes an Xacto I think with # 11 blades. Cheap and easy to find and the blades are replaceable.

Regards,

Gary

[Jim Koepke]

It seems like just yesterday this one was made in my shop:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?85649-Home-Made-Marking-Knife

Amazing that it has been in use for over 6 years now. Some wood was added to the the shank for more comfortable use:

303609

This knife gets used all the time for scribing the sides of dados so the waste can be removed with an easy chisel stroke.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

I use the blue spruce knife without much issue, as much as I like it I am considering a japanese knife for heavier cuts. I have what's called a 'grafting' knife for bonsai which strikes a shocking resemblance to a marking knife for woodworking, so I may test it out to see how it works since a good set is surprisingly expensive.

[Daniel Rode]

I have several marking knives but I usually reach for my iGaging marking knives. I have one with the long thin blade that's great for dovetails and the thicker, wider iron for general marking. Both have V shaped edges to work in either direction. I also have a Paul Seller's style Stanley double edge knife. I works pretty well but prefer the the single edge knives.

I use these with and across the grain. For me, if the knife follows the grain, I'm usually pressing down too hard and/or the knife is dull.

The iGaging knives are great considering they cost me less than $10. It took little work to get the blades sharpened but probably only about 10 minutes.

I slightly round the point. I'm not sure why but it helps them cut smother and straighter.

[Derek Cohen]

Striking a line with a marking knife is as much technique as it is about the tool. Cutting too deeply too soon will result in the edge of the blade being sandwiched by the grain, and then following this.

The correct method in striking a line is to use several light strokes, rather than one or two deep strokes. use a stroke just light enough to severe the top layers of the surface, and then deepen the cut the same way, and progress onward.

Even a light knife can strike a deep line if this is done in this manner. Nevertheless, a heavier duty knife will always be a better choice in this area.

The two features that I look for in a heavy duty knife are (1) capable of handling a large amount of downforce, and (2) a broad, V-blade that may be used left- or right and will track against a straight edge.

Here are three options ..

One of the best of the high end knives is by Chris Vesper. This works as a skew chisel for cleaning out half-blind dovetails as well ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Joinery_Knife____497c4e29b4c89_300x_zps8f122e04.jp g

I also have this inexpensive pocket knife from Lee Valley, called the Woodworker's Knife. I have honed away the secondary bevel ..

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/woodworking/carving/06d0710s03.jpg

Make your own. Use an old Stanley blade. Here I used a cheap Japanese Kadeshi ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Knife-frontofblade1.jpg

This is single-sided, and so I needed two.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Don Slaughter]

I bought this knife from Phil Lowe about 7 years ago but it was a single bevel so I bought a Hock blade for it. https://plus.google.com/photos/100343472905934603437/albums/5470665836689536737/5470665896267628946?banner=pwa&pid=5470665896267628946&oid=100343472905934603437 It is very hefty and easy to keep sharp with a strop. Cuts rip or cross grain without deviation. I also have a Stanley folding knife (like Paul Sellers uses) with replaceable blade that is light, sharp and easy to use for smaller work.

[george wilson]

WHY would LV put a hooked blade on a "woodworker's knife"? That is the last shape I'd want on one. How can you carve with it?

[lowell holmes]

How about a box cutter. They work well, just be sure to tilt the knife so the bevel against the straight edge is vertical.

You can make what Paul Sellers calls a knife wall.

[Chris Hachet]

Steve Latta did a review of marking knifes in an article for FWW in 2008. Here's the link. http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/video/tool-review-video-marking-knives.aspx

He likes an Xacto I think with # 11 blades. Cheap and easy to find and the blades are replaceable.

Regards,

Gary

Pretty much what I use. But then I am not up to the level of craftsmanship of a lot of the people here.

[glenn bradley]

WHY would LV put a hooked blade on a "woodworker's knife"? That is the last shape I'd want on one. How can you carve with it?

I believe the target purpose for it is just a rough and tough shop knife for general purposes around the shop (like opening your boxes from Lee Valley :D). Seriously, I got one as a stocking stuffer and it is surprisingly useful as a striking knife for things where you are out in the open and don't need a good flat bearing surface. I reach for it more than I thought I would and had to relocate it closer to the bench . . . who knew? :confused: With the hooked point it is the opposite of the rounded tip that Daniel R. describes but, does have its uses.

[Sean Hughto]

Hmmm, Fidel .... I uh, wouldn't be so quick to blame the tool. I have BS marking knives. They have no problem at all in following a straightedge. I urge you to work on your technique. No offense.

[Fidel Fernandez]

None taken.

I have a great success with my other single bevel knife and I have never experienced that problem. I have the "Crown 112 2-Inch 51-mm by 1-Inch 25-mm Blade Right Handed Marking Knife". The problem is a single bevel.

I wanted to have this new one for the double bevel as convenience of not changing knives for the direction.

I had received an email from blue spruce tools and he mention to round the point of the blade when sharpening. I have not done that. It has a very sharp point and that might be one of the cause of my problem.
He also mention that it is not design to cut very deep, and that is what I am doing. They have another thicker blade 1/16 that I might try.

I received email from Japan Woodworker and the japanese knife has been shipped.

Update **

This is from Blue Spruce website. I think I will order that one in the future.


The Blue Spruce Toolworks Large Marking Knife is well suited to larger joinery tasks or for those who prefer a larger, stiffer blade. The large marking knife is available with two styles of handles and three standard wood options. The blade is approximately 2-1/4 inches (57mm) long, 1/2 inch (13mm) wide and 1/16 inch (1.6mm) thick. This heavy duty marking knife is sure to become a favorite tool.

[Rob Luter]

I have three different knives I use based on the occasion. The Veritas (top) for tough grained wood, as it cuts a nice groove and doesn't wander, the Czech Edge (center) for general purpose marking, and the long, thin homebrew on the bottom for dovetails. I sharpen them as you might a chisel, with a flat polished back and cutting edges like razor blades. The sharper they are, the better they mark.


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4045/4378209549_e19d8b994e_b.jpg

[Derek Cohen]

WHY would LV put a hooked blade on a "woodworker's knife"? That is the last shape I'd want on one. How can you carve with it?

Hi George

I suspect that this would make a great knife for cutting lino :) Perhaps that is where the shape came from.

It's great for "carving" the end of a pencil, and it excells in striking a line. One can bear down on the tip. The blade is also thick enough to become a wedge and split thin boards.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alfred Kraemer]

WHY would LV put a hooked blade on a "woodworker's knife"? That is the last shape I'd want on one. How can you carve with it?
You are on the right track I think. This type of knife wasn't designed as a wood working knife but originally intended for a different purpose.
I have seen thise type of knife in Germany in two different sizes: a smaller version used by gardeners for grafting called 'Gartenhippe' and a larger version called 'Pappreissmesser' used for cutting roofing felt. Of course they are not limited to those purposes.

Alfred

[Jim Matthews]

I tried this method, rounding over the tip so it would track true.

It works, if you can get that round portion sharp.
If you can't, it just skates over the surface until
it find a soft patch - and catches.

A marking gauge should be set up so that the blade
is slightly canted away from the gauge shoulder,
which pulls the shoulder tight while marking.

It's the same principle as drawboring.
The natural angle of the blade draws
the shoulder of the gauge tight.

[Noah Wagener]

I use the LV Utilitas version with good result along and cross grain.

Is the way that knife is being used the proper way to use a marking knife? I tend to slice into the steel of my square and dull the knife and ruin the straight edge. Do you dull everything but the point?

the link did not get copied in the quote. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=60044&cat=51&ap=1

[george wilson]

I never use a "marking knife". I've always just used a sharp pocket knife,tilting it so it scribes right up against a steel rule.

[Daniel Rode]

I just noticed that I replied earlier with exactly the same comment...

At least I was consistent :)

[george wilson]

The Veritas shown above has the most sturdy blade.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks for all the insight here. So many great 'points' of view to help someone like me triangulate.

[Patrick Harper]

I'm really digging that woodworkers knife from Lee Valley.

I currently use a thick diamond shaped knife for marking cross-cuts, and a Czeck Edge Pattern Pilot II for joinery. I'll second Derek's opinion in that it's more technique than anything else. It's something I struggled with for a while.

[Mike Brady]

The premium marking knives are great looking, and I have one; but honestly I prefer a conventional double-bevel for marking. Single bevel knives can cut the edges of your layout tools, particularly if you have wood or brass straight edges on them. The double bevel on a thin blade of the Exacto or 10-049 Stanley folding knife keeps the cutting edge just a hair away from your straightedge or dovetail and won't shave it. Spear-point marking knives are also a challenge to sharpen without ruining the nice bevels that the maker put on them. Much of this is probably just personal preference, however. The fancy marking knives certainly have an "edge" in the "looks" department.

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting to see an old thread bubble up again.

My response was going to be about making your own marking knife (knives). Then of course, my reply was already there.

Since the OP was inquiring about heavy cross grain work only my first shop made knife was shown:

311151

This is my most used marking knife made from an old plane blade. If it were to be done again, the angle would be a bit more acute and more of the blade would have been used to make the handle a bit longer. This knife has been in use for 7+ years and seldom wonders from my bench.

The pins holding the scales on the handle are pieces of scrap brass peened over. It is solid and can strike a great line and also can be used like a chisel to carve out a "V" notch when desired.

It is a little thick for dovetail marking so a second marking knife was made:

311152

This one is made from a piece of broken saw blade. The handle was turned on a lathe. The ferrel is a compression ring from a tubing connector. It can mark reasonably in soft woods across the grain, but the plane blade knife is better at that task, just as the saw blade knife is better at marking between tails for dovetail layout.

jtk

[Shawn Pixley]

Like Mike (be like Mike?), I like the single bevel style. I have a spear-pointed one that you can use right or left handed.

[Derek Cohen]

I never use a "marking knife". I've always just used a sharp pocket knife,tilting it so it scribes right up against a steel rule.

George, since this thread began, I have reshaped the Veritas knife, removing the hook and grinding wide side bevels.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Knife-mod1_zpsus4tntbr.jpg

The advantage of this knife is that it may cut on both sides of a rule or guide, just by tilting the bevel - which is wide enough for good registration. Futher. the blade is really thick and stout at the upper side, and may be used with a hammer to split/rive thin boards for dowels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Vanzant]

When LV brought out their striking knife, I bought a 3-pack...for about what one goes for today. Nice knife with enough flex to register against DT tails without shaving the lower edges.

[Travis Knutti]

This is probably a bit late of a post, but like daniel rode on the first page, I also bought a really cheap igaging knife from rockler one day, just to get the free shipping. Wasn't planning on it being very good, but i figured why not. It came pretty rough, prob 80 grit off the grinding wheel, it did take about 10-15 min to get the back flat along with getting all the grinding marks out of it. But after that, got it honed very nicely took a nice edge, and i really like it, pretty much use it for all my cross grain marking, even use it for scribing dovetails a bit when i space them wider. But all in all for the 6 bucks it costs from rockler it's a great knife. I also use a marking gauge for marking with the grain, helps ensure from the knife tracking with the grain. I havent bought any expensive knifes, but i would prob give the blue spruce knife a try, purely for marking narrow pins, an exacto knife works well, but i dont like the double edge on it. Anyway just thought I'd throw my opinion in, I'm new here on the forum, and thought I'd try and contribute my experience.

[Robert Engel]

I have an Igaging double bevel and and old chip carving knife.

Seems I reach for the carving knife most often.

I think mainly it seems harder to keep the edge against the ruler with a flat sided knife. Just a little bit leaning and your off the line.
No big deal except if your ruler is on the keeping side, right? But who remembers that all the time?

For me, leaning the knife a bit helps me make sure the edge stays against the ruler. That, plus keeping the knife pretty upright while scoring.

I think the Igaging fails for dovetails. I think the Cosman knife is good but I think his tools are overpriced.

All the stuff about "bruising the walls" -- I think that's splitting hairs.

Paul Sellers uses a Stanley folding knife and swears by them.

Remember Latta does lots of inlay work so his choice of a #11 scalpel is understandable for crossgrain marking.
I just can't see it leaving a very visible line in endgrain so I don't think it will work well for dovetails (not with my eyesight, anyway).



I don't think it really matters that much but IMHO spending $40 or more for a making knife is a bit silly.............

[Jim Koepke]

I don't think it really matters that much but IMHO spending $40 or more for a making knife is a bit silly.............

My sentiments exactly, that is why making my own seemed such a good idea. This thread has me thinking about making another.

jtk

[ian maybury]

Late also, but partly to the above, and partly to the OP's question.

I can't claim to be an expert or to be formally trained, but it seems to me too that the fancier/more expensive variety isn't a necessity. Only if you want something really nice looking.

Functionally speaking there seem to be some fundamental trade offs in marking knives - i'm not sure there's a single one that does everything.

You can have a wide line from a thick blade that without a lot of care risks the knife and/or rule being displaced by the wood, or you can have a fine one from a thinner blade that's easily guided, but can be hard to see. (especially on dark wood)

The bevel on one side type presumably seeks to enable accuracy with a wider line/thicker blade by placing the flat side of the knife adjacent to the rule, but as a result requires RH and LH knives or at least switching over depending on the situation.

Most commercial knives like the Exacto are sharpened as delivered with a short double/ V bevel which has to tend cause some loss of accuracy - although it' possible to learn how much to tilt it most of the time.

I don't much like the traditional one side bevelled spear point type - even the slimmer ones. I'm sure it's a lot about technique (light pressure, multiple passes), but unless the handle is held high they seem quite inclined to be steered by the grain. Unless the cutting edge is lifted well above the wood surface it risks functioning like a plough.

It's probably due to years of scoring with a knife of this type while building models, but i think there's a lot to be said for the 'sheep's/lambs foot' format blade. I like the often recommended Two Cherries no. 63 pattern chip carving knife for this reason: https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TXPC/item/EE-CPK.XX - it reaches into tight spaces, is very accurate (it sits tight against the rule when honed in a single V), there's enough blade up high to be guided by the rule and be obviously visible so control is good, there's no RH/LH issue, and the straight cutting edge is less subject to the ploughing action as above since it's mostly the point that does the marking.

The main down side for me (especially if sharpened with full depth bevels on both sides) is the very fine line the no. 62 leaves. I'm on the lookout for a thicker and longer bladed version (a sheep's/lamb's foot fixed or pocket knife like Derek's could fit the bill) that can be sharpened to a wider V - that will score a wider and more visible line on jobs where the ultimate in slimness is not required...

[Jim Koepke]

I like the often recommended Two Cherries no. 63 pattern chip carving knife for this reason: https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...item/EE-CPK.XX - it reaches into tight spaces, is very accurate (it sits tight against the rule when honed in a single V), there's enough blade up high to be guided by the rule and be obviously visible so control is good, there's no RH/LH issue, and the straight cutting edge is less subject to the ploughing action as above since it's mostly the point that does the marking.

The main down side for me (especially if sharpened with full depth bevels on both sides) is the very fine line the no. 62 leaves.

Both of these, unless the #62 is a typo, look to be great knives for the job of marking. My option was to spend money on a marking knife or to make one from what was at hand. Saving the money and repurposing items unusable for their original purpose seemed a way to "have my cake and eat it too."

jtk

[ian maybury]

Making is a very genuine option Jim - it can be hard to get a knife with decent steel in it.

I have the 63, but wrote 62 first in error and edited it. The 62 looks like it could be useful as a thicker bladed type, but it's tough to tie down the dimensions without seeing one...

[Jim Koepke]

it can be hard to get a knife with decent steel in it.

Don't forget a comfortable handle to go with the decent steel.

Comfort in use is only one reason my thoughts drift toward making a second knife from what remains of the plane blade. I have gotten used to the shortness of the first one. Due to an injury to my right thumb a longer handle would be nice for right hand marking to cradle the handle better in the web of my thumb and forefinger.

If it ever happens, it will be posted here.

jtk