Garage Shop Wall

[Rey Johnson]

Hello Everyone. This is probably only my second or third post here, but I read the forums almost everyday.

I have a single car garage shop that I work from. My tool arsenal has been growing rapidly, a whole list of Festool tools and now a Delta bandsaw and drill press.

Everything is or will be mobile due to my space constraints. I have great visions for my little space here. I've already won the car/garage battle with the LOML, so my space is dedicated to my shop.

I need to OSB or some other sheet to my concrete garage walls. I am thinking about fastening 2x4s to the concrete and then fastening the OSB to the 2x4s.

I have attached a picture to better illustrate what I am thinking. Also, should I be concerned with drilling so many holes into my garage concrete wall to fasten the 2x4s? The garage is external but connected to my house.

Most of the threads here seem to indicate that OSB is the way to go, cost wise. Before reading thru some of those threads, I was thinking of white melamine.

I can't find any threads where anyone has used melamine for this purpose. Would that be because of cost, or might there be another reason for not using melamine?

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[Frank Hagan]

Using "furring strips" is a common way to put a finished wall over block; usually they are 1 x 2's, but there's no reason you couldn't use 2x4's (except for cost and increased difficulty!) You might Google for that topic and see if you get hits from people who have done exactly what you are planning.

Melamine is probably pretty expensive, and I'd also be concerned about the moisture issue. You're above ground, but usually melamine is on either MDF or particle board, and neither one of those works well in contact with floors if there's a chance of water getting to them. In my garage, when it rains, I do get some moisture at the ground level. I have my vertical stock on a small platform for that reason.

I would use drywall for just a smooth, "appearance" wall; its relatively inexpensive, and works well. OSB or exterior plywood would probably be a good choice too, with the added advantage that you could mount directly to it anywhere along the wall (especially if you have 5/8 or 3/4" ply.)

[Lee Schierer]

Personally, I've never had good results using OSB for much of anything that was supposed to last for a long time. It seems to be very damp intollerant and if it gets wet, its history.

Why not put up pegboard and make the wall useful for mounting tools and jigs. You can still hang cabinets to the 2 X 4's. I would mount the @ X 4's to the wall with Tapcon screws. They hold tight and are fairly easy to install. You will need a hammer type drill to put the holes in your concrete blocks though.

Lee

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rey...Welcome to the Creek!

I installed 1/2" CDX on the wall of my new shop. I will still probably use a French cleat system to hang cabinets when I get to that phase!

[Tim Lindgren]

Planning for any insulation? Such as pink polyboard? Polyboard glued to the wall, then sandwitch 2x studs flat, with R11 batts would give allow for a year-round shop. (with a space heater)

OSB would work... T-111 would look nicer (its basically 1/2" ply with slots cut into it to look like T&G panelling). Maybe a mix of T-111 and Pegboard?

If cost is a serious concern... 1x2 furring strips and drywall would be the cheapest route.

[Tim Lindgren]

Oh, and about drilling the holes into the wall... It wont hurt anything. dont even worry about it. I would use construction adhesive - It has a good strong bond to open-pore concrete block. Or if using the polyboard... use anchors to pull the 2x and the polly tight against the wall.

Dont forget to add a few recepticals before putting the wall up! You'll probably need em. :)

[Rey Johnson]

Thanks for the quick replies.Drywall is not a consideration at this point, because I plan to hang as many things as possible.

I was considering OSB so that I could fasten as many things as I needed. The T-111 option seems very nice. Cost is not the utmost concern, but I am not looking to pave the wall with gold ;) .

I think that I will go with either the OSB, CDX or the T-111 for the wall.

I am more concerned with the walls growing in on me too much. I plan to attach the 2x4s to the wall with the 4 inch side mating to the wall. I want to save as much actuall work space as possibe, even if we are talking about just a few inches. Could I even get away with something thinner than 2x4?

As for insulation, I do hope to get some type of insulation between the 2x4s. The cold temps in the garage last winter, even with a space heater, kept me out of my garage :( .

I plan to look into a heating solution, after I get things a bit more organized. Hopefully before it gets to cold again.

Thanks for the responses.

Rey

[Chris Padilla]

Rey,

I see you are in "Picksburgh" and so you obviously have temperature issues to deal with so insulation should probably be high on your list to maintain a smaller gradient of temperature change in your garage!

Now it kinda stinks but insulating correctly will cost you a perimeter loss of about 3.5-4" all aorund the garage walls but unfortunately, you need that space to fit in the 2x4 R-13 batts as suggested by Tim. I guess it all depends on how you insulate and how you mount the wood studs to the concrete blocks.

Once you've figured out the insulation/stud issue, then you can think about what material you want to put on the wall.

When I redid my garage, I gutted it, insulated it, and then paid someone to hang drywall and mud/tape. Drywall was the choice for me due to cost and to meet fire-code.

[Chris Padilla]

Thanks for the quick replies.Drywall is not a consideration at this point, because I plan to hang as many things as possible.

I was considering OSB so that I could fasten as many things as I needed. The T-111 option seems very nice. Cost is not the utmost concern, but I am not looking to pave the wall with gold ;) .

I think that I will go with either the OSB, CDX or the T-111 for the wall. Drywall is probably the cheapest option but maybe not when you consider the extra step of mudding/taping. If you mark your studs, drywall shouldn't cause you too much concern. I dunno about everyone else but the OSB I've seen out here (7/16" thick) was 3x the cost of 1/2" drywall.



I am more concerned with the walls growing in on me too much. I plan to attach the 2x4s to the wall with the 4 inch side mating to the wall. I want to save as much actuall work space as possibe, even if we are talking about just a few inches. Could I even get away with something thinner than 2x4?

As for insulation, I do hope to get some type of insulation between the 2x4s. The cold temps in the garage last winter, even with a space heater, kept me out of my garage :( .

I plan to look into a heating solution, after I get things a bit more organized. Hopefully before it gets to cold again.

Thanks for the responses.

Rey

I hear you about the walls growing in on you. I wonder if you should go with furing strips (basically 2x4s ripped in half) and then look into some foamboard stuff or a sprayed insulation? If you are going to limit your insulation thickness, you'll want to get the highest rated one you can with minimal thickness. Pittsburgh is nasty in the winter and if you were kept out of the garage because of it and you really want to be in the garage, you should research carefully your choice of insulation. Is there any access to the cinder-block walls? Can you fill the cinder-blocks with anything that would work?? Can you drill holes in various spots in the cinder-block and fill them up? Look very carefully into insulating and consider all options...maybe seek some professional help.

[Rob Russell]

Rey,

I wouldn't sweat the loss of 4" of shop width. What I would do: Coat the concrete with a moisture blocking paint like Drylock (to slow down moisture bleeding into your shop space).
Frame the walls with 2x4's, normally. That gives you space to install normal receptacle boxes in the walls. Insulate with R13 in the walls.
I'd frame the walls so they are flat and stand them up rather than trying to follow the concrete. That way your walls will be straight and cabinets you mount on the walls won't have to conform to a wiggly wall.
Check your local codes regarding wall covering. You may find that the wall surface has to be noncombustible because this is a garage. That would mean sheetrock. If not, 1/2" plywood is what I'd use. You can always paint the plywood white to brighten up the shop.
I'm in CT and have weather similar to yours. What will be important is the ability to heat, cool and dehumidify your shop year-round. If you skimp on your walls, that will be much harder to do and you'll lose usefullness from your shop.

Rob

[Tim Lindgren]

If you skimp on your walls, that will be much harder to do and you'll lose usefullness from your shop.
Rob

Not to mention your expensive tools will RUST much faster without some form of climate control. Personally I don't like working with COLD tools. Too hard on the hands in the winter.

If you're committed to flat mounting studs to the wall, I would suggest:

- Use Treated studs. Always treated when wood/concrete touch. Use liquid nails to attach.
- The Drylock suggestion is excellent. Concrete block is inherently porous. Drylock will seal it, cut down on vapor leaks, and drafts.

- You can cut 1 1/2" extruded polystyrene board to fit in between the studs. 1 1/2" Owens Pink board as an R value of 7.5. Blue is R5. The White is R3. Use "Foamboard" adhesive to secure. (NEVER liquid nails on this stuff..it's caustic!) This will give you at least some insulation.

- Screw & Glue the wall material. Environmental changes are going to be in the extreme.

Oh yes..one last thing. you'll need GFCI breakers instead of GFCI recepticals. GFCI recepticals wont fit into shallow boxes, and are required by code in garages.

You sure that extra ONE and ONE/HALF inches of saved space is worth all this extra effort?

[Rey Johnson]

I am beginning to see the light. I just can't skimp on the walls. I think that standard 2x4 framing with the insulation is the way to go here. I will just have to swallow losing 4-5 1/2 inches from the one side of the garage.

I will certainly go with the DryLock paint.
The side of the garage that connects to the house is already finished. So I am really only concerned with the one side wall and the wall at the back of the garage.

Thanks for the suggestions of insulation as well. Rust and moisture have both been an issue for me. So I will get things done the right way, or try to anyway.

I will get the studs/frame up first, hash out the best insulation, then consider the best covering. So, off to Home Depot I go. Probably won't buy anything today, but will price the material there and also Lowes.

[Steve Stube]

I would only strip and cover it if it is to be insulated. Sorry but that is the only reason I would give up the space. If you are not interested in insulating (filling the block and external insulation may still be options) why not PAINT the block (white comes to mind) and use Ackerman Johnsons and/or plastic inserts for all your hang up needs? It works for me in my garage. I hung up a few horizontal 1" X 4"'s that made it easy to attach hooks for hangup tools with only a few attachment points to the block.

[David LaRue]

Fine Homebuilding has a article on dry / mold free basements that goes against the tradition furring out method. They used ridgid syrofoam directly atached to the wall and then put a false wall in front of it. No vapor barrier!

D

[Jim Becker]

I used 1/2 Studs (effectively a 2x2) to fir out the walls in my shop so I had some room for a little insulation and a vapor barrier before I put up the sheet goods. I just used masonary nails to put them up and the work went quick since the block isn't that hard.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Seems like a good plan on your part, but I suggest you run 120 volt and 240 volt outlets before you cover the wall.

[Todd Davidson]

I'd put drywall j-molding on the bottom of whatever sheathing you're going to use - serves as a barrier from the moisture in the concrete floors.

[Don Stanley]

Thousands of cinder block homes are built in Florida, using 1x2's (3/4" x 1-1/2") on 16" centers, and covered with sheetrock. The extra depth required by a receptacle box is chiseled out of the cinder block. Insulation is installed in the thin space between the firing strips, however, you don't need a lot of insulation for heat in Florida. This is all you would need to hang a wall, but in your case, you will want more insulation. Your original choice of 2x4's sounds like a good compromise. You could also use 2x2's, but you may find it easier to find quality 2x4's for similar cost.

[Rob Russell]

Rey,

Thinking about this a bit more, i'd say the decision about how you frame your walls comes down to how you want to run your electrical.

If you want to do "normal" wiring - NM cable (aka "Romex") through holes in the studs into normal boxes nailed to the studs - I'd frame the walls with 2x4's in normal orientation to the wall. I wouldn't chisel out holes in the wall for electrical boxes.

If you want do to surface mount wiring - PVC conduit, EMT or Wiremold and pull individual conductors - you could frame the wall with something that would give you a 2" depth and use 2" styrofoam insulation panels.

The easiest, in my mind, is normal wiring. If you wanted to do a blend of the 2, I frame a normal wall and go with surface mount wiring for ease of making changes later.

Hope these things get ya thinkin' :)

Rob

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Lee beat me to it. I have a new shop in Terrell (at the house we just bought) and it's covered with OSB walls on the first floor (it's a two story shop). I'll be removing it one panel at a time til I get it all out. I'm not a fan of the stuff and use it for nothing.

I know it's cheap, but like cheap tools, the cost comes in the second time you have to buy it. It always seems to degrade 5x faster than plywood or sheetrock. As much as I hate drywall (there's none in the 'new' house!!), I'd do that before OSB.

[Jim Becker]

Kelly, why not just cover it with what you want, rather than remove? (Or does it need insulation?)

[Larry Reimer]

Rey, I agree with Steve, I wouldn't "fur out" that wall unless there's no other way to insulate it. I currently have concrete walls painted with Drylock. I mounted horizontal cleats for mounting cabinets to or for hanging tools/jigs from. I like the result, but then it's insulated outside not inside. May I suggest that you look at steel studs or steel furring strips in place of wood. They're easy to work with and you don't have the concern of the wood/masonry contact.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Kelly, why not just cover it with what you want, rather than remove? (Or does it need insulation?)

That would be easier Jim, but I am concerned with what happens a few years down the road. I'll be in that house for a long time to come. It's relatively new and I could wait til it rots then replace it, but I have to remove some of it for an addition I plan to build...another 10X12 (making the first floor 440 sq.ft.), so it makes sense to take it all out at once. It is insulated downstairs, but not upstairs.

[Steve Stube]

Kelly you said, "I could wait til it rots then replace it". Where do you expect all the moisture to come from that will be necessary to rot the OSB? This is on the inside walls of your shop, right?

[Scott Parks]

Kelly you said, "I could wait til it rots then replace it". Where do you expect all the moisture to come from that will be necessary to rot the OSB? This is on the inside walls of your shop, right?

Not to mention that 90% of new construction homes are sheathed with OSB! And that's on the exterior! Even on Million$ homes. Why do you think OSB will rot? I think there's an awful lot of resin or preservative in there, right? That or the humidity wreaks havoc on the glue and wood sugars and causes swelling or flaking? I doubt that it rots, but would be more to believe that the material fails due to moisture swelling/drying climate cycles... But if this were the case, it wouldn't be used as sheathing.

In my locale, the vapor barier goes on the interior, with the bare OSB sheating covered by the siding, with no exterior vapor barrier because it is placed on the interior.

[Rey Johnson]

Thanks for the many replies. There is a lot to chew on. There is much for me to consider for the wall.


For now, I will get up a temporary solution with the 2x4 frame and pegboard, plywood or OSB. That way, I can get to some of my "real" projects.

I will revist walling my garage after I have had more time to consider my electrical, heating and insulation needs.

I will try to get before and after pictures to post. Thanks for the ideas and alternative approaches.
Rey

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Scott...it is very humid here in the summer months. The shop is not sealed and air conditioned (yet). I've torn enough OSB out to realize that here, it rots without direct contact with water.

Each nail that goes through the OSB is a carrier of water. Sure it's supposedly sealed with Tyvek right? How do they get the Tyvek on? Staples....

Once or twice I have removed hardwood floors when a bathroom has had water damage to the floor. The original subfloor is usually 1" boards in the older homes, but we find OSB a lot where people have repaired before. It's rotted away in less than three years in most cases.

They are using OSB because it's cheaper than plywood...not because it's a better product. For the same reason I wouldn't want Melamine cabinets or pressboard veneered furniture, you can't GIVE me a new house...even a million dollar one. I know too much about how they build 'em.

I guess you could call me a building materials snob. I can live with the title. Everytime I come across a thread about this stuff I speak up against the use of it.

[Rey Johnson]

Well, got the wall framed out. I decided to go with a 2x4 frame. I had to build the frame in place due to the way that the garage door rails are situated.

I have about 6 inches from the cinder block to the front face of the frame. I couldn't believe how uneven the original block wall turned out to be.

I think that I am going to go with white pegboard for sheathing for now. I haven't insulated yet, but plan to at some point before it gets too cold out. Any idea if the peg-board sheathing would cause a loss of r-value?

I also plan to have a cleat system that I can easily remove, as needed. Ie. whenever I proceed to electrical setup, etc.

[Rob Russell]

When you insulate, you need a vapor barrier and that would be on the inside or just in back of whatever your wall sheathing will be. I'd think that using pegboard as a wall sheathing would leave the potential for poking holes in your vapor barrier with the pegs.