Tablesaw safety - Am I standing in the right place?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi guys,
Lately I've been trying to improve my Table Saw safety. I tuned up the saw. I bought a Shark Guard and use it wherever possible. I got better feather boards (magnetic) and use them. I bought a good miter gauge that's rock solid as well as accurate. I made some good 14" push sticks/paddles to replace those junky plastic ones I used to have. Now I'm reviewing how I operate the saw, reading things online to refresh myself on safe TS utilization.

Today I read something that makes me think I am standing in the wrong place for my most routine ripping and crosscutting operations. With safety matters, I've always found it's a good idea to review what I'm doing with someone else. Would you mind looking over the crude drawing I've attached and telling me if I am standing in the right place? And if I'm not, where should I be? (I'd rather feel foolish that I've been doing it wrong, than to continue doing it unsafely.)

(You can click on the image to get a better view.)

Thanks very much!
Fred


303383

[Peter Aeschliman]

Hi Frederick,

The principle is to stand out of the line of fire for kickback. So standing off to the side for the duration of the cut is key. You don't want to move behind the workpiece right at the end of the cut as you say.

Unfortunately for us right handed folks, that means reaching across the front of the blade as the cut is completed. The only way to do that safely is to use a good push stick so that your hand stays to the forward of the blade.

So I think you're doing it right, with the exception that you need to stay to the left even as you complete the cut.

It's pretty awkward to do frankly.

[Al Launier]

Agree with Peter, and it's always good to "refresh" your safety habits, but a couple things I might suggest.


Install a kill switch on the left side so you can "E" stop using your left, or even right knee.
Wear good quality safety goggles.
Use a directly behing the blade to keep the wood separated, especially when ripping.
When ripping wood, especially wet and or long wear a quality full face shield over the goggles.

[jack duren]

Hi Frederick,

The principle is to stand out of the line of fire for kickback. So standing off to the side for the duration of the cut is key. You don't want to move behind the workpiece right at the end of the cut as you say.

Unfortunately for us right handed folks, that means reaching across the front of the blade as the cut is completed. The only way to do that safely is to use a good push stick so that your hand stays to the forward of the blade.

So I think you're doing it right, with the exception that you need to stay to the left even as you complete the cut.

It's pretty awkward to do frankly.

You stand were ever you have control of the piece the MOST. It doesn't matter if its to the left,right or directly behind the blade.....

[Jason Roehl]

It's pretty awkward to do frankly.

Frankly, this makes it inherently unsafe, in my opinion. The only way to push a workpiece in a straight line is to push it away from your body. This can only be done in line with the blade. Standing to the left of the blade means that you're pushing from right hip to left shoulder, which is a very difficult way to not put side pressure on the blade (a cause of kickback) somewhere along the cut. So, to do what SEEMS safe by taking yourself out of the "line of fire", greatly increases the chance there will be a "fire". The one time I've had a kickback? I was standing to the left of the line of the blade...

[Bill Space]

You stand were ever you have control of the piece the MOST. It doesn't matter if its to the left,right or directly behind the blade.....

Ha ha...good advice until things go wrong. Then if directly in line with the blade...OUCH!!!

[Mark Carlson]

I was taught to stand to the left of the blade and push the stock forwards and towards the fence. This doesnt feel awkward to me at all. Kelly Mehler has a really good description on how to position your body when ripping in The Table Saw Book. I'd read that.

[jack duren]

Ha ha...good advice until things go wrong. Then if directly in line with the blade...OUCH!!!

Its really the only advise. Many of you do not make a living from this, but those us who do we don't play games with the saw. It doesn't care what we think or how we stand or use it, it just cuts what thrown into the blade.

This topic has popped up so many times over the yrs its wonder why there is still a dispute on the simplest of things....

I've been hit many times in the earlier yrs of my career but less over the last 15-20 due to understanding the risks involved in its use. I also have lost 2 fingers in 1985 as a result of doing something I shouldn't have done due to poor advise. I will stay where it gives me the best control and kickbacks usually don't happen.

[Myk Rian]

I was taught to stand to the left of the blade and push the stock forwards and towards the fence. This doesn't feel awkward to me at all.
That's how I do it most often.

[Brian Henderson]

That's pretty much how I do it. I'm left-handed so it doesn't bother me a bit, I've also got a good heavy push stick that keeps the wood from pushing upward, if it shoots back, it's going to shoot back at tabletop height and I'm safely out of the way of that. Pushing against the fence at maybe 30 degrees also helps to keep it from coming at you. You can also use an auxiliary fence to keep the work from pinching between the blade and the fence.

[Roy Harding]

Depends upon what you're doing. If you're ripping a two inch width from a four inch board - standing to the left of the blade is feasible, comfortable, and safe. If you're ripping 36 inches from a 48" sheet of plywood, you need to be directly behind the bulk of the cut - IE, right where the plywood will launch if it binds. Of course, as someone else mentioned earlier, if you've got control of the work piece, the chances of a kickback are minimized.

The rules are different if you're making a non-through cut (dado, for instance).

Generally - if you're comfortable, and have total control of the wood you are cutting, you'll be fine. If you can be comfortable, have total control of the wood, and stand to the left of the blade, you're golden - but the first two criteria (comfort and control) are generally more important.

Of course, as someone else has already stated - this is advice only, from a professional woodworker who has made his fair share of mistakes, but can still count to ten using both hands.

[Art Mann]

I have used a table saw for 40 years and the only accident I had was at the beginning when I knew nothing about it. What I have learned is that there can't possibly be a stance that is appropriate for every situation. You definitely want to stay to the left of the blade when possible but there are situations where this posture will be too awkward to maintain good control of the work piece. In this case, you must change your position to keep good control. An improperly held supported and propelled work piece is far more dangerous than just standing in the line of fire in case of kick back. If you understand the mechanics and causes of kick back and take appropriate precautions, you aren't going to experience it very often anyway. I have been using my table saw at least weekly and sometimes several hours a day for decades and I can't remember the last time it happened.

[Roy Harding]

I have used a table saw for 40 years and the only accident I had was at the beginning when I knew nothing about it. What I have learned is that there can't possibly be a stance that is appropriate for every situation. You definitely want to stay to the left of the blade when possible but there are situations where this posture will be too awkward to maintain good control of the work piece. In this case, you must change your position to keep good control. An improperly held supported and propelled work piece is far more dangerous than just standing in the line of fire in case of kick back. If you understand the mechanics and causes of kick back and take appropriate precautions, you aren't going to experience it very often anyway. I have been using my table saw at least weekly and sometimes several hours a day for decades and I can't remember the last time it happened.

Exactly - said it better than I did.

[Bill Huber]

I cross cut to the left where my miter gauge is and I do rips to the right as far as I can and still control the board.

To me if there is going to be a kickback when ripping the board will come off the blade and be to the left of it.

[Dave Ray]

Same here Bill

[Ken Fitzgerald]

My blade guard has a splitter and a set of anti-kick back pawls, one behind and on each side of the splitter. I use that guard unless I am using my dado blades. Call me chicken!

When ripping I stand to the left but will move to the right to finish a cut. The pawls are engaged and prevent a kickback.

When crosscutting, I stand to the left of the blade and use one of my miter gauges or crosscut sleds.

[Rod Sheridan]

There are several common safety issues with North American style saws with regarding stock kickback

1) Use of a proper fitting riving knife or splitter for all sawing operations. The riving knife needs to hug the back of the blade to prevent the workpiece from rotating into the back of the blade, resulting in a kickback

2) The top of the blade also needs to be guarded as any contact between the work and the top of the blade will result in a kickback. This means that either the standard guard, or a crown or bridge guard must always be on the saw, even for non through cuts.

3) When ripping solid wood stock, the fence shouldn't project further into the leading edge of the saw blade than the gullet. This prevents wood from binding between the fence and the blade after the wood has been cut. This is a typical adjusment for a Euro fence, an NA style fence would need a short auxilary fence to be clamped to it.

4) Using the rip fence as a crosscut stop can also result in stock ejections when the the piece is trapped between the blade and the fence, either use the short fence, or use a spacer block to generate the required clearance.

5) Ejection of small offcuts or small work pieces that come in contact with the saw blade. Use the jig described below to prevent that type of accident.

The photographs show a few steps in the deflector construction, I've also included a PDF drawing in Metric and Imperial for those who wish to construct one.

The deflector is placed with the tip almost rubbing on the saw plate, it then deflects the little offcuts or short workpieces away from the blade, and creates a physical barrier between your fingers and the blade if you retrieve any of the pieces...

[glenn bradley]

You stand were ever you have control of the piece the MOST. It doesn't matter if its to the left,right or directly behind the blade.....


Ha ha...good advice until things go wrong. Then if directly in line with the blade...OUCH!!!

Heh-heh. Yeah, I would really like to see what tablesaw safety book you can find that tells you to stand in line with the blade. The benefit of a forum is that you get a lot of differing responses. However, just because someone does something (or has done it for 30 years) doesn't make it safe ;-)

[jack duren]

There's a difference between 30 yrs hobby and 30yrs professional. I'd rather have a guy working for for me with common sense than a guy that's too set in his own ways and increases the risk of injury.

[Peter Aeschliman]

There's a difference between 30 yrs hobby and 30yrs professional. I'd rather have a guy working for for me with common sense than a guy that's too set in his own ways and increases the risk of injury.

Jack- I agree with you that full control of the workpiece is a key element of this. No argument there. I think the only point where we differ is when the cut is finished- lots of folks saying that they move behind the workpiece as they finish the cut. Most of the time, standing out of the line of fire AND having full control of the workpiece put you in the same position, so we really don't have much of a difference of opinion...

...because in order to have the full control you describe, we need to apply feeding force AND lateral force against the fence. I don't know how anybody can apply both of those forces while standing directly behind the workpiece for the whole cut. Standing directly behind the workpiece would require you to rotate your torso to push the workpiece against the fence, and I just don't see how you can control the workpiece with any accuracy like that, especially if its begins to stray from the fence (I'm picturing a 10' long rip cut on a 10" wide workpiece).

My statement that it's "awkward" to finish the cut while standing to the left was a poorly chosen word and that didn't articulate what I meant. What I really meant is that finishing the cut in that same stance is "counter-intuitive." Awkward implies lack of control, and as I explain below, I don't think the ability to control the workpiece at the end of the cut is affected either way by where you stand...

Here's why... As we reach the end of the cut, there is less uncut workpiece exposed against which to apply required lateral force to keep the workpiece up against the fence. That, and the fact that your appendages are closer to the blade (even when using push sticks) makes this the most dangerous part of the cut. Whether you stand directly behind the workpiece or to the left, as the end of the cut approaches, we are less and less able to apply the lateral force. So for the last 1/4" of a cut, the only force we can apply safely is in the feeding direction. It doesn't matter where you stand at the end of the cut because all we can safely apply is feeding force... As long as you can apply the necessary feeding force from both positions, they are the same in terms of control. Side note: this is why feather boards are an important safety device.

So if both standing positions are equal in terms of control, my opinion is that you should continue standing out of the line of fire, which means staying to the left of the blade.

Riving knives, feather boards, and anti kickback pawls are all important parts of the system. And as Rod mentioned, the euro design of pulling the fence forward so that it stops just after the front teeth, makes a ton of sense. BUT, in addition to these necessary precautions, I still prefer to stand to the left so that I don't get hit in case that the other safety precautions fail, because, again, my control of the workpiece is the same in both positions.

I respect and value your experience as a professional. But all due respect (and with no intention of making you angry), there are lots of professionals who do things incorrectly or unsafely out of habit. End of the day, it's your body and your decision, so you can choose any approach you like. But I maintain that my approach is the safest for the above reasons.

[Charles Wiggins]

Like others have said, when ripping, I stand to the left of the blade and finish my feed with a push stick.
If I am crosscutting, I stand behind the miter gauge and keep one hand on the work, well away from the blade, and the other hand on the miter gauge.
If I ever need to use the fence as a stop when crosscutting, I always install an auxiliary fence to measure against and make sure that the workpiece will clear away from the auxiliary fence BEFORE it touches the blade.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

[jack duren]

Back to original reply..."You stand were ever you have control of the piece the MOST. It doesn't matter if its to the left,right or directly behind the blade"....

Standing awkward to avoid a kickback is silly. Back to original reply"You stand were ever you have control of the piece the MOST. It doesn't matter if its to the left,right or directly behind the blade.....

Most of what I read is from people non educated with there saw and taught incorrectly.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Back to original reply..."You stand were ever you have control of the piece the MOST. It doesn't matter if its to the left,right or directly behind the blade"....

Standing awkward to avoid a kickback is silly. Back to original reply"You stand were ever you have control of the piece the MOST. It doesn't matter if its to the left,right or directly behind the blade.....

Most of what I read is from people non educated with there saw and taught incorrectly.

Jack, tell me if you agree with this statement:

"In cases when you can control workpieces equally well by standing in different positions, it's BETTER to stand in a position that is out of the way of potential kick-back."

That is my argument. You are not directly addressing the logic, and are instead hurling insults at me and others by dismissing our logic by calling us amateurs. Engage in a logical argument or move on...

[jack duren]

Nice video. The guy says your stupid if you don't used a knife. I think he's stupid for taking the risks to make the video....

Anyway...In 90% of the cabinet or furniture shops you won't find any protection but the one between your ears to tell you if should or shouldn't be making that cut on any piece of equipment. I see things today that really just aren't right. Recently a guy on second shift was wearing gloves on the jointer and caught the glove and nest his finger. Old news to me, but new to them.

[jack duren]

"In cases when you can control workpieces equally well by standing in different positions, it's BETTER to stand in a position that is out of the way of potential kick-back.

I don't cut on a saw assuming I will get a kickback. One should have smarts enough to know before he or she turned on a saw if one should be cutting it that way to start with. Its not meant as an insult but as an observation of some of the replies....

Easier to just watch Norm...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUMif8_XQRE

[Peter Aeschliman]

Argh! You didn't answer my question. haha

Do you agree with that statement? I get your point that it's about control. Assuming control is good, why wouldn't you stand out of the way of potential kickback?

I know it's highly unlikely to occur if you do everything else right (riving knife, feather board, kickback pawls, perfect milling practices and aligned fence, etc). But there are still cases when tension is released in wood, or you do something you shouldn't do (don't ask me how I know).

So. All else equal, wouldn't you agree it's better to stand out of the path of potential kickback?

[jack duren]

Using norms video as an example....On smaller pieces on WIDTH you will be to the left, but your shoulder will still be fairly inline with piece on the fence. That's control. Now you are going to rip 15" off a sheet of plywood 4x8. Where would you be then? Very simple and it's not to the left or to the right at the end of the cut...

[Peter Aeschliman]

Norm's approach risks him taking a serious hit to his man parts. If he moved just a few inches to the left, he would have the same level of control with dramatically less chance of castrating himself.

It's not the most intuitive way to stand, but the level of control is unchanged and safety is higher. I rest my case- this is wearing me out. :)

[Jim Finn]

I am often ripping small pieces of wood (under 8" wide) so I put the fence on the left side of the blade and reach over the fence to grasp the large push block I make. The wood and blade are on the other side of the fence from where I am standing. I am right handed.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I am often ripping small pieces of wood (under 8" wide) so I put the fence on the left side of the blade and reach over the fence to grasp the large push block I make. The wood and blade are on the other side of the fence from where I am standing. I am right handed.

That's really smart!

[Frederick Skelly]

First, I just want to say: Charles, that video was sobering, if not downright terrifying. Whew!

To everyone: Thank you. I thought I might be completely out of sync with normal safe practice, but it sounds like I need to just make some adjustments. I have occasionally done it as Mr Finn suggests and see the benefit. I need to think about that some more. I really appreciate all of you folks helping me review my operation to improve my safety - especially after watching Charles' scary video.

Best regards,
Fred

[Keith Weber]

Rod,

I like that wedge-shaped cutoff deflector jig. Very cool! That would save a lot of time not having to keep them off the back of the blade every couple of cuts. I might just have to build one of those.

[Jerry Olexa]

Be careful of "KICKBACK"..Stay away from the line of where the board would go if kicked back....I try to stay either L or R but away from that imaginary line. It has powerful force..Had one go through the 5/8" drywall before I installing splitter/riving knife etc.

[Roy Turbett]

I am often ripping small pieces of wood (under 8" wide) so I put the fence on the left side of the blade and reach over the fence to grasp the large push block I make. The wood and blade are on the other side of the fence from where I am standing. I am right handed.

I may be missing something in your description but it seems to me that if you're pushing with your right hand you risk having your hand sucked into the blade the same as in the kickback video Charles posted. If you're pushing with your right hand, you want the fence to the right of the blade so the lateral pressure is against the fence and not against the blade.

I also agree with Rod that US saws are lacking because the one size fits all fence is too long for ripping dimensional lumber. I much prefer my old Unifence that could be shortened to the 42" Biesmeyer style fence that came with my Sawstop.

My only complaint with Norm is that he never used a splitter on his Unisaw. The Biesmeyer splitter that I had on my Unisaw could be installed in less than 5 seconds and used for nearly every cut except for non-through cuts and dados and would still allow for "photographic clarity".

[Bill Space]

Hi,

i just remembered a guy I used to work with, until just over a year ago. He was a carpenter, I was an electrician. The workplace was a large steel mill. Now you can argue that a steel mill does not employ "real" carpenters, but they do.

Anyway, this guy now has just one testicle, due to a table saw kickback injury he suffered at home. I believe he had 20 plus years of professional experience when this happened. I do not know all the details.

Stand in in direct line of the kick back path if you like when ripping, but I think it is irresponsible to advise others to do this.

Sort of like telling someone that pointing a loaded guy at someone is not a concern since it will not go off unless the trigger is pulled. That is right, but what if?

Me, I will stand out of the line of fire. And I will not encourage others less experienced to stand in the line of fire, for whatever reason..

It it is all about minimizing the chance of injury if things go wrong....

"Past performance is no guarantee of future gains" as the financials guys say...

Bill

[Brian Henderson]

I will admit wincing at that video. Glad he wasn't injured!

[Keith Pleas]

Install a kill switch on the left side so you can "E" stop using your left, or even right knee.
I use a floor switch if I think there's any chance I'll need both hands to control stock.

[Ole Anderson]

I generally stand to the left. Anybody had a kickback on a large piece of plywood? Although I have heard of it I haven't and it seems less likely to happen than on a smaller piece of lumber simply because of the mass of the ply is less likely to move quickly and get caught up in the blade and with the width, you are better able to control the direction of the cut. I have posted this pic numerous times, sorry for the repetition. Since then I use the blade guard (SharkGuard) with it's splitter for every possible cut. Once the stock gets past the start of the splitter the pucker factor eases. One more thing: don't use a push "stick", use a device that will hold the piece from lifting in the front also.

[Frederick Skelly]

One more thing: don't use a push "stick", use a device that will hold the piece from lifting in the front also.

I agree Ole - I use something very similar as you show, rather than a push "stick".

I also made an kill switch that I can easily reach with my knee, as Al described. Thats been a solid improvement.